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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Question about assault cannons...
Posted by: Phaeton Oct 30 2003, 02:55 AM
What's the point of 'em when a Barrett 121'll do the job just as well and a lot more silently?
Posted by: GunnerJ Oct 30 2003, 02:58 AM
Does the Barret 121 have the word "assault" or "cannon" in it's name? 
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Oct 30 2003, 03:03 AM
The ammo is so much easier to get hold of?
121 won't touch a medusa where as an assault cannon can (even without av ammo)
Posted by: REM Oct 30 2003, 03:09 AM
plus the sheer coolnes and intimidation of the said assult cannon
i personaly would turn and run if it was pointed at me
my char on the other hand ...... would die
Posted by: Glyph Oct 30 2003, 03:14 AM
Assault cannons, while still bulky, are still much easier to use in a firefight (as opposed to sniping). The higher damage code is useful on the occasions where neither weapon is overkill - namely, bug spirits and vehicles. Obviously, the Barrett has it over the assault cannon in stealth. But when someone hauls out their assault cannon, stealth is usually not the first thing on their mind. 
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 30 2003, 03:41 AM
Range. What's the Extreme range on the Assault Cannon, something like 2.4 klicks? Even with an extended barrel, a rifle'll only give you 1.1.
~J
Posted by: Liquid_Obsidian Oct 30 2003, 09:58 AM
Well , i would use Ass.Canon to do the job because :
Horrible bang : tends to make even the most hardened runner run like hell on his tracks
Horrible bang : Barret 121 don't open as big holes in walls as a panther or a vigorous (always come the way they
don't wait you)
Horrible bang : Sometimes you want to do a lot of mess , attacking the car of a yak oyabun with an assault canon or a vindicator don't sends the same message that killin' him with a 121 bullet while he's at the eye of the needle
Posted by: Maxwell Silverhammer Oct 30 2003, 10:03 AM
The major differences have been stated, the barret is less effective, in a close range fire fight, the reason for this is generally simple, the guy fireing the barret is usually a light armored sam, or maybe phys ad, the guy carrying the panther canon is gnerally a 9 foot troll only slightly less armored than a Light APC, which one do you think is more dangerous?
Barret is just a rifle, Panther cannon is a Heavy Weapon. This doesn't make much difference when both are being shot at soft squishy's, but it does when shooting at vehicles, and that is the main crux. The Panther Cannon is simply more versatile and highly effective against a wider variety of targets.
Posted by: El_Machinae Oct 30 2003, 10:43 AM
Actually, the fact that it's a heavy weapon is a really good point. The linked attribute is strength.
... some metatypes have an easier time with strength-linked skills ...
Posted by: Liquid_Obsidian Oct 30 2003, 11:35 AM
i really don't see the one you talk about...
(/me is a plain good old minotaur) héhéhé
Posted by: Ed_209a Oct 30 2003, 05:07 PM
Since we are on the topic, what do you consider the difference between an assault cannon and an anti-material rifle?
For that matter, what is the difference between an assault cannon and a high-velocity grenade launcher? (like Mk19, OCSW, etc)
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 30 2003, 05:47 PM
I'll play the wise-ass.
| QUOTE |
| Since we are on the topic, what do you consider the difference between an assault cannon and an anti-material rifle? |
AMRs fire rifle rounds, assault cannons fire cannon rounds. Now guess what I think is the difference between an AC and a HVGL.
I think the generally accepted caliber barrier between rifle and cannon is 20mm? It's not that clear since there aren't many examples of rifles between http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn46-e.htm and http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn56-e.htmhttp://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn55-e.htm, but that you already knew. Now, if someone was to create a new caliber, with dimensions like 18x80mm, that would pose some problems...
The 25mm grenades of the OCSW, at ~1400ft/sec muzzle velocity, are still pretty "low velocity" when compared with most AMR or AC round. This, together with the ~2000 grain projectiles, places such weapons firmly in the GL category. The Mk19 even more obviously so. But again, if someone was to create a new caliber with dimensions like 25x70mm, 1400 grain projectile and a muzzle velocity of 2200ft/sec (don't bother checking the recoil, I know it would be HUGE), that would prove very problematic. At that point, I suppose the weapon is anything the makers say it is.
Can you make Assault Cannons fire rounds with an area of effect in SR? I know there's nothing in the BBB, but does CC mention anything like it? If it does, then that would be a good reason to go for an AC instead of the Barrett. Even if the rounds only did e.g. 8S with a Burst of -2/meter, that would make ACs a lot more versatile. Is the bastard hiding behind a meter-thick steel barrier that even your Vigorous can't penetrate? No worries, just drop a few HEs next to him and he'll be screaming to get out of his hiding spot.
Posted by: Ed_209a Oct 30 2003, 06:09 PM
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
I'll play the wise-ass.
AMRs fire rifle rounds, assault cannons fire cannon rounds. |
Heh, 7S & 14S both come from the same round...
<inserts SR3_CANON™ Personafix BTL>
Of course! How silly of me!
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 30 2003, 06:17 PM
No they don't, at least not in any game I've played. See the range charts? See how Sniper Rifle and Sporting Rifle have different catagories? I'm pretty sure it's also canon to split their ammo, and I've never seen it played otherwise.
14S and 16S come from the same caliber, yes, but not 7S.
~J
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 30 2003, 06:23 PM
BBB, p. 279
| QUOTE |
| Use the categories shown on the Weapon Range Table, p. 111, to determine what gun types can share ammo. |
Unfortunately for you, when I referred to "rifle rounds" and "cannon rounds", I mean the RL classifications, not SR ones.
Posted by: Ed_209a Oct 30 2003, 06:42 PM
For that matter, are there any AMRs in the game beside the Barret 121?
Posted by: Shadow Oct 30 2003, 06:56 PM
As far as I know there isn't a SR classification for AMR's. That is a real world designation that a lot of people started using around here after Raygun educated us.
Of course you can combine the two. A friend of mine used to snipe with a Panther Cannon. Boy was that messy.
Posted by: Ed_209a Oct 30 2003, 07:01 PM
No, there isn't. But are there any other xD-class sniper rifles like the Barret 121?
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 30 2003, 07:02 PM
SR AMR = Sniper Rifle + AV ammo
And the Barret isn't actually much (if at all) better against non-personnel targets than the other Sniper Rifles of SR. It doesn't penetrate any better, it only does a bit more damage if it DOES penetrate. Which is actually a problem with the other Sniper Rifles, not the Barret, but that's not the topic here so I'll stop ranting.
Posted by: Diesel Oct 31 2003, 02:24 AM
Can someone give an example of a real life assault cannon, other than the launcher on the OICW?
Posted by: Siege Oct 31 2003, 02:28 AM
Ya know, I don't think there is a real world equivelant.
The .50 caliber sniper rifle is one of the few examples of anti-vehicle weapons converted to man-portable systems. (Well, to my mind -- the experts may have better ideas)
The closest fictional equivelent would be the Barrets that blew things up in Robocop.
-Siege
Posted by: John Campbell Oct 31 2003, 02:56 AM
We don't have trolls to tote them in the real world.
Posted by: Dim Sum Oct 31 2003, 02:59 AM
| QUOTE (Diesel) |
| Can someone give an example of a real life assault cannon, other than the launcher on the OICW? |
No such thing. The closest you can probably come to it are
a) the smaller recoiless rifles available today, which need to be mounted
b) the 20mm tripod/turreted autoguns (my reference of choice for my players)
The launcher on an OICW is NOT an assault cannon by a long shot.
Posted by: Diesel Oct 31 2003, 03:14 AM
Alright. Just making sure. I was thinking pretty hard about it and the best I could do is some of the smaller grenade launchers.
Essentially it's a horizontal mortar?
My group doesn't use them too much, they're more low key.
Posted by: Dim Sum Oct 31 2003, 03:26 AM
| QUOTE (Diesel) |
| Alright. Just making sure. I was thinking pretty hard about it and the best I could do is some of the smaller grenade launchers. Essentially it's a horizontal mortar? My group doesn't use them too much, they're more low key. |
I think only one of them is described as firing an explosive shell - can't remember whether that's the Panther (which I vaguely recall fires a solid slug). In the case of the one firing an explosive shell, yeah, you'd be right in your analogy of a light direct-fire mortar.
I still refer my players to the 20mm man-portable "autocannons" (usually mounted on tripods or vehicles) which were so popular during the Dhofar war in Oman. I have a player who loves the Panther ... keeps saying, "Just wait till I come across you at two point four klicks one of these days!"
Posted by: Raygun Oct 31 2003, 04:33 AM
| QUOTE (Diesel) |
| Can someone give an example of a real life assault cannon, other than the launcher on the OICW? |
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/payload.pdf is about as close as you're likely to get.
http://club.guns.ru/eng/ntw20.html might also qualify.
As would http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn56-e.htm.
And maybe http://www.steyr-aug.com/amr.htm.
The whole "assault cannon" thing (a completely ludicrous concept by name) most likely came from the "Cobra Assault Cannon" from RoboCop. They were just movie-fied http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearms/amr/bar_m82.html.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 31 2003, 04:56 AM
Out of interest, why is it that semiautomatics are considered less accurate than bolt action?
I personally continually think of Assault Cannons as being similar to the Assault Cannon from Dark Forces. Man, that was cool.
~J
Posted by: Siege Oct 31 2003, 05:35 AM
I would imagine the added shift from ejecting the casing and chambering a new round.
Not being a rifle shooter, I can't swear from personal experience.
-Siege
Posted by: Hero Oct 31 2003, 06:22 AM
When I think of an assault cannon, I picture a multi-fire multi-barrel weapon chambered for a 12-15mm round. I see the Panther Assault Cannon as a 20mm autocannon that can be fired from either the hip or on a bi-pod.
And to go a little off subject, the OICW might not be an assault cannon, but that does not make it no less deadly. The OICW advantage comes from its ability to launch a ABED or other wise known as a air bursting explsive device on a relatively flat flight path. This gives it a very big advantage over normal grenade launching devices as in you can easily shoot it though a window. And the fact that ABEDs can be air timed means you can program then to explode a few seconds after they land. Making the people inside the target think it failded to arm and no longer warrented there attention, then boom it detonates and there are dead or seriously wounded.
Posted by: Raygun Oct 31 2003, 06:47 AM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Out of interest, why is it that semiautomatics are considered less accurate than bolt action? |
The action of a semi-auto doesn't tend to lock up in exactly the same way every time due to the forces involved in cycling the bolt automatically. Therefore each cartridge is headspaced in the chamber slightly differently than the next, which can lead to inconsistent pressures and consequently velocity and accuracy (meaning consistency from shot to shot). The pressure variation is usually very slight, but the further away you are from the target, the more difference it makes.
There are ways to minimize the lack of consistent lock up, but generally it takes a lot more money and time to make a super-accurate semi-auto than a bolt action. Being loaded manually, bolt actions can be loaded much more consistently and less violently, which will generally allow a bolt action to stay more accurate over a longer period of time. a nicely-treated action tends to wear a lot slower.
There are a few semi-autos out there that will regularly outshoot a lot of bolt actions. But they usually cost an arm and a leg. For instance, a company called http://www.tacticaloperations.com/ makes rifles based on the Remington 700 action that are gauranteed by the factory to shoot 1/4 MOA groups (that's three to five rounds inside of 0.25" at 100 yards, 0.5" at 200 yards, 0.75" at 300 and so on). The rifles cost anywhere from $3,500 to $4,500 (no optics; tack on another grand or so for that).
A Heckler & Koch PSG-1 doesn't leave the factory until it shoots 50 rounds inside of 1 MOA (1" at 100 yards, 3" at 300, etc). The PSG-1 could likely shoot just as well as the Tac Ops rifle, but it costs upwards of $10,000 (with optics), weighs nearly twice as much, and will probably require a lot more maintenance to retain that level of accuracy.
But in both cases, it takes quite a bit of training for a person to be able to even utilize that level of accuracy. There are also tactical advantages and disadvantages to using each kind of rifle.
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