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Posted by: cristomeyers Jan 15 2007, 04:18 PM

My runners managed to pick up a PAC during another GMs game (he's now one of the players. we know each other's work well enough that making new characters would've been more trouble than it was worth). They've had their fun with it, but it's starting to disrupt the game balance. The gangers they're up against now can't even begin to stand up to it.

So the question is, how do I nerf it? I've been waiting for a critical failure, but none is forthcoming. What are some other ways I could nerf the thing in the two days the runners have before the meet for payment and the next plot point?

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 15 2007, 04:31 PM

Make everybody either scream and run away in terror or open fire at them the instant anybody notices it -- and it's not like a 1.5-meter, 20kg metal contraption is hard to miss. Everybody in a half-mile radius will hear when it's fired, and law enforcement from all over the area will arrive ASAP with SWAT and all.

Man-portable weapons capable of causing destruction far greater than the PAC in SR4 exist in real life, but you hardly ever see them, at least outside of warzones. Not just because they're extremely difficult to get at, but also because they're largely useless outside of an actual warzone.

Posted by: Butterblume Jan 15 2007, 04:51 PM

You could make ammo scarce, so they'll only use the PAC when they think they have too.

Of course, this only works if they haven't hoarded ammunition yet.

Posted by: Homme-qui-rigole Jan 15 2007, 04:56 PM

Easy!

Next time they use the Panther in the street, make a Lone Star Swat team appears to neutralize the runners.

Also, you can "control" the use of the Assault Cannon by making the AC ammo difficult to obtain. availibility for Assault Cannon is 16F, so you can crank up the price and Avail with hefty modifier because it's classified Forbidden. Next, you can force the runners to track down ammo boxes one by one, wich will consume big time ressource. With that, the runners will think twice about it before shooting ganger wannabe and instead keep the ammo's for big stuff and really important matter.

P.S. a fireball against a Assault Cannon ammo box is so funny!

Posted by: Konsaki Jan 15 2007, 04:57 PM

Austere hit the fix right on the head.
Just make the shadowrunners have to go through a random security checkpoint that the Star set up for drunk drivers. Once the Star does a quick Cyberware Scan and Chem Sniffer test, they will have ? and ! sticking up over their heads as they radio in for backup that instant.

Posted by: cristomeyers Jan 15 2007, 05:19 PM

Thanks guys. The only reason Lone Star hasn't come down on them like a pack of hammers was because they don't really have any sway in the neighborhood where it was being used. Of course, now that there's been reports of a team with full body armor (already nerfed) and a PAC running amok in the Humanis' "nice neighborhood", things could get really interesting.

I'm thinking a fireball to the ammo box or thereabouts is going to be the way to go, though I'll probably use a grenade or a lucky shot. The holder of the cannon and his compatriot need to be taught a lesson before the GMPC they keep tormenting sets them on fire with an ignite spell.

Guess that leads me to my next question (better than cluttering with another thread). How much is too much when warning runners in-game? Here's the thing, these two runners (out of a group of around 7) have been making some real bad decisions (like, shooting innocents) and noteriety points just won't do it.

Right now, the GMPC that I've been using to help steer the characters when it's needed these two have been tormenting. Out of game, I know it's in good fun and I'm not entirely sure he actually means his character is doing it. In game, he's aggravating a young woman, a spirit hunter mage, that has PTSD from being gang raped. And I have left clues as too her condition (she recoils when touched, freaked out when she woke up to their Ork shaman using a Heal spell for wounds to her chest, etc).

Her reaction would be to set the idiot on fire (only reason she didn't set the Ork on fire was she was wounded). But I don't feel right doing that for A) something they don't know and B)playing his character. Other players have agreed that these two need to be taught a little lesson and one is actually hoping I set the guy on fire.

Posted by: RunnerPaul Jan 15 2007, 06:29 PM

Posted by: Konsaki Jan 15 2007, 06:32 PM

Random LoneStar Sniper misses and doesnt headshot the wielder but destroys an integral part of the PAC, disabling it for all intensive purposes. Make the repair TN pretty high, so if any of them have the Armorer skill, they cant do an 'on the spot' fix.

Posted by: Ophis Jan 15 2007, 06:38 PM

Have a Wombrick (or other large stupid para-animal) escape from the zoo and eat the cannon.

Posted by: lorechaser Jan 15 2007, 07:11 PM

Posted by: Blog Jan 15 2007, 07:16 PM

"So some new kids on the street got some fancy weapon? That would be great for our gang! lets hunt'm down boys!"

Its an illegal weapon that is hard to obtain, if the money/motive is right someone might come looking to 'borrow' it.

Posted by: Mistwalker Jan 15 2007, 07:19 PM

Easy
Next time they torment her, have her cast fireball, but at the last second target it near them, rather than kill them.
Happen to have the fireball hit the PAC and it's ammo.
Have her tear a strip off of the two, but ready to either run or light them on fire.

Both problems handled with one action.

Posted by: Konsaki Jan 15 2007, 07:20 PM

Posted by: mfb Jan 15 2007, 07:21 PM

maybe he meant that the PAC would still be useful in low-pressure situations?

this is the sort of thing that, as a GM, you really want to plan ahead for. i know you weren't responsible for giving them the PAC in the first place. however, when you first took the GM reigns, it would've been wise to start thinking about how to get rid of (or nerf) the PAC and other high-powered items, if necessary.

the solution i'd go with, since it requires no preparation and little explanation, is to simply state that the ammunition for it is no longer commonly available. market conditions, or whatever. you don't even have to cut them off completely--just sharply limit how much they can acquire at one time.

of course, smart runners could find a use for even an empty PAC. some quick work can make it look loaded; that'd be worth a nice bonus to intimidation and certain negotiations.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 15 2007, 07:22 PM

Posted by: lorechaser Jan 15 2007, 07:43 PM

Posted by: cetiah Jan 15 2007, 08:31 PM

Three alternatives to nerfing:

1. Have someone on the street (maybe through an illegal matrix ad) want to buy the panther cannon. It doesn't cost all that much, and if you offer enough nuyen to install some new cybergear, bioware, or magical doohickey, it might just be worth it for the player. Make it clear that they won't be able to just get another one to replace it. Allow them to negotiate for a higher price, or for favors. Give them a new contact out of the deal.

2. Explain to the players that it might not be appropriate for your next run without starting World War X in Seattle. They might not agree, but might become more responsive if you offer them Karma for not using it or for getting rid of it. You don't need a LOT of Karma, just one or two points for everyone in the group to build up the social tension. "Guys, we need to lose the panther cannon. It's not working out. During this next run, try to find some opportunity to let it go out with style, like it deserves. You'll all get an extra Karma point or two to mourn the loss of your partner's amazingly heroic sacrifice."

3. Put the player in a situation where he'll need an extra Edge point, and offer to instantly refresh his edge in exchange for the effects of a critical glitch. Hint that he may lose the panther cannon for the deal, but at least he'll survive the terrible fate he just stumbled into. Have the character narrate what he's doing with the edge point and if it sounds cool or self-sacrificing, award him a Karma point for his character's amazing brush with death.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 15 2007, 09:07 PM

Well, certain Seatle neighborhoods are war zones and PACs aren't out of place there at all.

I see no reason to nerf the weapon when it would be far simpler to adjust the ganger's tactics so that the weapon would be of limited usefulness against them. (Gangers do have tactics). The proper use of cover, concealment, and stealth could allow a ganger to close to melee range where the cannon would be more useful as a club, for example.

Posted by: Charon Jan 15 2007, 10:34 PM

A few zones in Seattle are as good as war zones. In these locations, walking around with assault rifle, heavy armor and one heavy weapon (I prefer the Heavy Machine gun on a gyromount to the assault, cannon, it's more powerful and useful).

But then, the same goes for the opposition. Even a small gang can scrape the money for one big gun between them all (Or just have acquired it by ambushing the previous gang of runner running around in their turf with big guns).

And beside, considering you are professional runners, I would expect the target to be tougher than a bunch of bums. Otherwise, why bother hiring you instead of less skilled and cheaper operators? So whoever your target are in this urban warzone, they should be able to exploit the same condition the runner are and use heavy ordinance and booby traps that can blow you into space.

I feel it's just fun once in a while to find an excuse to cut loose with the big weapons. It's a change of pace.

Obviously, 80-90% of runs take place in situations where it's impossible to bring in heavy weapons so I say just have fun with them when you can.

Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 15 2007, 10:47 PM

There is another option as well. Instead of Lone Star, have another team of runners learn of this team and its PAC and try to take it from them. Have that team be at least as good as your team and strike from ambush. Its underhanded, but you could have them raid one of the runner's homes and take them hostage to trade for the PAC. For that matter, one or more of the gangs might have hired the runners to get rid of the team that had been plaguing them and the gun is part of the payment.

What SR4 is missing is the legality chart of the previous versions. Merely getting caught with a PAC would probably bring down a fantastic fine and a couple of decades in prison. I don't have one of the books with such a chart in it to hand though.

Posted by: WhiskeyMac Jan 15 2007, 10:51 PM

To NERF the PAC I would probably just have someone who is bigger and better want it and come try and get it. Having a group of "miscreants" running around armed like soldiers blasting away at things with a highly illegal weapon would bring down LS SWAT and Metroplex Guards on the scene very, very fast. There's no real reason, other than a merc campaign or a Barrens campaign, that these PCs should be wandering around with a PAC without being accousted on some instance. Think about that bank robbery in LA awhile ago with the guys dressed in heavy armor and blasting people with assault rifles. That is the reason that we now have cops walking around with SMGs, ARs and heavy bulletproof vests. Let the characters know that they don't live in a vaccuum and can do what ever they want because they have a big stick. Have somebody show up with 2 big sticks and teach them a lesson. They're making a bad name for shadowrunners everywhere and somebody is going to take offense.

On the griefing the GMPC, have her fuck them up. Fireball their ass back to oblivion. Let them know before hand and/or through the game that she has some mental problems. If they keep griefing her about it FUCK THEM UP. Unless they agree to stop messing with her then have her light them up.

Posted by: Charon Jan 16 2007, 12:05 AM

Posted by: Kasheu Jan 16 2007, 04:28 AM

one answer to solve all your PAC problems...... ball lightning

or just simply say what my GM has told the group im with..."whatever you use I can use too" sure its fun shooting a PAC but being shot at by one....not so fun lol

Posted by: The Jopp Jan 16 2007, 09:58 AM

Have a noob mage put up a weak barrier right in front of the barrel.

Delayed action would allow the mage to cast it at the moment of firing. The shell would stop and detonate at the barrier and there would be a backwash.

Posted by: djinni Jan 16 2007, 10:23 AM

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 16 2007, 11:08 AM

Posted by: TBRMInsanity Jan 16 2007, 01:35 PM

If you are having trouble with a cannon then have the lone star take it away from them. Think about it, if you were to walk down the street carrying a rocket launcher today what would most likely happen to you? You would be beaten within an inch of your life and then you would be placed in a cell to rot for the rest of your life. Not much has changed in the SR world. The second they take their cannon on a run, you have the star show up and arrest them. If they complain, have the officer state that their spotter drone caught them on tape and they are busted.

Posted by: Jrayjoker Jan 16 2007, 01:57 PM

If the PCs are just running around blasting with the PAC like the criminals in Robocop (yeah, thats how I think of the PAC), then I totally agree that they have been recorded by a drone and there is now a warrant for their arrest with relatively accurate descriptions. Let the hassle of changing their appearance and MO do the talking. if they keep using it, then escalate the response like others have said. [ed.] Of course their fixer will have to call them and warn them about the warrants, for a fee. [/ed.]

With regard to the hassling of a GMPC: If it is reasonable, have the GMPC freak out and scream at the PCs about not letting them rape her and then go catatonic. The GMPC is no longer an asset, and will need a lot of TLC to recover and be useful again. And if they keep up the BS, she disappears.

Of course, you probably want to have an OOC discussion with the whole group about what they want out of a gaming session, campaign, etc..

Posted by: Dashifen Jan 16 2007, 02:31 PM

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 16 2007, 03:06 PM

Another thought about the GMPC. It sounds like you've created a GMPC that has an interesting backstory, and you've obviously invested more into her than a standard "shopkeeper NPC". You probably like this NPC more than most, and are a little attached to her, and all that is fine.
However, as you mentioned, this GMPC is sometimes used to steer the group. From the very little that you have told us about the players, it occurs to me that they may be the type that, if they feel as though they are being steered by said GMPC, they may resent that aspect of the game and thus, resent and hate the GMPC. Since you are fond of the GMPC, you may not be seeing this.
This is just an idea, I don't know near enough about the situation to call it a theory. But oh, how I wish I could decide which NPCs my players would decide to love and which ones they'd decide to hate ahead of time. But hey, if I wanted predictable I'd be a novelist, not a GM.
I've said it before, but it's worth repeating. One of my personal GM rules is: Never become so attached to an NPC that you're not willing to see them die. This includes GMPCs. If you find yourself so attached to an NPC, they must be retired to a minimum safe distance away from the campaign.

Posted by: cristomeyers Jan 16 2007, 04:07 PM

Fair enough, Moon Hawk. Yes, I am a bit attached to her, but the odds of her making it through the campaign are pretty slim. I don't think there's resentment at being prodded a little. When I say steering, I mean that if the PCs are having trouble figuring out a particular point in the campaign, she pipes up with an idea that leads them there. So far, the only way I've used her to steer the campaign was that she was the group's objective (bodyguard). I am definitely going to start watching that a lot more carefully now, though.

The only reason the runners went into the situation fully armed for bear was some my fault and some the tactical mind of the group's fault. When I said the Humanis cell was in control of the neighborhood, I meant that they essentially policed it (protection, small groups patrolling, things like that). He thought I meant they were going into Mogadishu with folks every five feet firing automatic weapons and RPG's. Miscommunication there. The situation turned into essentially a FPS fragfest, but it was fun and that's my goal. Like someone said earlier, sometimes it's fun to just let loose with heavy weaponry. Now they've had their fun and I just want ways to make sure it doesn't happen again and really mess up the campaign.

On the group, they are looking for a long-term campaign. The reason the PAC came into play in the first place is because the "if the players can, NPC's can" rule backfired. If the NPC's can, the players can.

Posted by: kigmatzomat Jan 16 2007, 04:40 PM

Simple ways to get the PAC under control and the players aware of the situation and taking it seriously.

1. They get called to a meet; the Johnson turns out to be a local who recognizes the PCs. He immediately cancels the meet, possibly to the players faces but maybe through the fixer, citing their use of unreasonable ordinance. Have that be a function of their notoriety.

2. Sting. have Lonestar "pollute" a shipment of PAC ammunition with a tracer so that people who are close to the PAC firing glow under UV light. Naturally, this is the ammo the party has. Oh yeah, there's also some RFID tags in the propellant so they can be sure where the tagged ammo was fired (meaning if they get caught, they'll be blamed for every use of the ammo). BTW, using a tag eraser will cause the ammo to detonate. Boo-yah!

3. Bounty. PACs scare people with good reason. Have a 1,000Y reward for information leading to arrest of the persons who posses and used a PAC. It's enough that gangers and little old ladies will readily roll over but not so much that people start hunting the party.

4. Media. Use of a PAC in the city, even in the barrens, is perfect for a sweeps week expose. Have the runners' stomping grounds seeded with small aerial camera drones, looking to catch a glimpse of the numnuts. The other local dirtbags are displeased with the attention and consider outing the party.

Posted by: sunnyside Jan 16 2007, 10:15 PM

Honestly I wouldn't worry about the assault cannon. Death comes easy in shadowrun and with the combination of physical attacks vs mana spells it's hard to get a character shielded from everything.

I didn't restrict my characters access to those sorts of toys at all (beyond the difficulties in aquiring items as described in the books).

However they knew that to get paid more they had to take tougher missions and they could either take more skill based/sneaky/thinky missions or they could take bigger gun missions. The system is deadly enough they didn't want to take the big gun missions.

I did however let them occasionally toss them missions where they could just go to town. Every so often players just like reveling in being bad mofos.

Posted by: Charon Jan 16 2007, 10:42 PM

An assault rifle with 5 points of recoil compensations firing a long burst :

11P, -1AR

A Panther AC

10P -5 AR

Statistically, 11P -1AR is worth pretty much the same thing as 10P -4AR.

So there isn't much difference against a soft target. Well, there's range, but in an urban situation it's not much of an issue.

As I said in my first post, I consider an HMG on a tripod or gyromount to be much more dangerous than a PAC.

Unless you rule that AR and MG bullets are stopped cold by armored vehicle, there's really bot much use for the PAC at all in your arsenal.

Posted by: Konsaki Jan 16 2007, 10:45 PM

That -5 AR really helps with busting through armor though. Course AP rounds for a rifle will do the same thing...

Posted by: Hagarzen Jan 17 2007, 01:49 AM

Hello Alex

Why take away our BFG9000? I used that claymore fair and well it doesn't matter because they got blown up good!

Okay for real, yes we went loaded for bear but who wouldn't? This isn't a duel! I'm also very ticked off at A20K for a personal matter, good thing we didn't start taking out houses!

See ya next game

Cross

edit for spelling

Posted by: Zen Shooter01 Jan 17 2007, 03:16 AM

It's NPC, not GMPC.

Posted by: cetiah Jan 17 2007, 03:42 AM

Posted by: sunnyside Jan 17 2007, 04:11 AM

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 17 2007, 04:46 AM

If the GMPC has PTSD due to a gang rape and if she is a danger to the PCs because of it, then the PCs would be better off editing her memories to remove the offending incident. In fact, if they were in a position to cast Mind Probe her and cast Alter Memory on her while she was unconscious, it would be ideal. This is probably a far worse violation than the rape, but she'll never know.

Posted by: cetiah Jan 17 2007, 04:58 AM

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 17 2007, 05:03 AM

Posted by: cristomeyers Jan 17 2007, 01:52 PM

Was wondering when Cross would show up. Careful man, or I'll make the guys elect you leader.

Right now, watching ammo is seeming like the best option, it just never occured to me. It's amazing what you don't think about when you're actually LOOKING for a solution.

As to the Mind Probe/Memory Wipe. If they're going to try it while she sleeps, they'll probably fail. People with similar conditions tend to be very light sleepers (go figure), a Blackberry Cat padding across the floor would probably wake her up, much less a Mind Probe. Secondly, they damn well better succeed, otherwise every runner in the place is going up in flames. As for ritual magic, the runners have enough issues to worry about without trying to set her off. They're more than welcome to try, but again, word gets to her and someone's turning extra crispy. The trauma is also a plot point that I have yet to fully flesh out because it wouldn't come into play until much later.

As to GMPC, you're right, I'm using the term wrong. Persistent NPC is probably a much better description.

Posted by: Zen Shooter01 Jan 17 2007, 02:10 PM

major or recurring NPC is the standard nomenclature.

This has been said, but the Panther is a large, heavy, impossible to conceal, noisy, thoroughly illegal piece of equipment. That should be enough to curb its mission applications.

Posted by: toturi Jan 17 2007, 02:17 PM

Posted by: Hagarzen Jan 17 2007, 03:07 PM

Good morning all,

Alex for your first problem of the BFG that will take care of it's self since we have very few chances to use it. (we have had it for a while now without using it).

For the second issue. One remember that Syphon has a SIN criminal. Second I don't want that leading back to my place of employment ( I also have a legal SIN). So I will be talking to them next time about that. For the wacked out firestarter, have her to them into fried chicken. It is Shadowrun, they might need a example made.

Best
Cross

Posted by: cristomeyers Jan 17 2007, 03:43 PM

Thanks for all the advice guys.

Trust me, the PAC is safe for now. I've been thinking about this for awhile and on second thought, there's not much reason to go out of my way to take it out. Though if it gets out of hand...


Cross:
There's a reason I don't use my magic all that often. Sypho (or whatever he calls himself) isn't worth the...effort, yet.

Gabryel

Posted by: pbangarth Jan 17 2007, 05:15 PM

Posted by: pbangarth Jan 17 2007, 05:20 PM

I guess I should have read ALL the posts before replying. My post above is redundant. Sorry.

Posted by: lorechaser Jan 17 2007, 06:21 PM

Posted by: bait Jan 17 2007, 11:55 PM