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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ When Runners work with Lone Star

Posted by: jrpigman Jan 16 2007, 09:05 PM

QUOTE

Sword-Wielding Do-Gooder
Updated: 15:11, Thursday January 11, 2007

Police are trying to trace a mysterious samurai sword-wielding vigilante who came to the rescue of two officers when they were being attacked by an armed gang.

The officers had been set upon after they tried to disrupt a burglary at a flat in Laygate, South Shields.

A group of men had knocked on the door pretending to be policemen before forcing their way in to ransack the place.

The passing plain-clothes officers were alerted when a woman inside started screaming, and went to help.

However, they were outnumbered, and the criminals were armed with a hammer, knives and a metal chain.

One of them lunged at a policeman with his knife - but just as he did so, a mysterious do-gooder appeared from nowhere and attacked him with a samurai sword.

One of the burglars ran off, but was stopped by the stranger, who hit him on the arm with the sword.

He was arrested, along with another man from the flat, but in true superhero fashion the samurai man disappeared before police could speak to him.

A third man was arrested later. Two men are still being hunted.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91059-1246969,00.html

I'm gonna say a Johnson hired this guy to intercept a raid for some particularly useful data, but some plain clothes stuck their noses in. Now he's brought unnessecery attention to the run and the Johnson doesn't want the data anymore, because it's been noticed in the media. The street sam has to find some way to launder the data, or sell it to his enemies if he expects to get paid for the run.

Anyone got anything more feasible, short of a nerd with a sword and some brass balls?

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jan 16 2007, 09:23 PM

Ancestor spirit. The guy who was lunged at by the knifey thug will be surprised when he learns the identity of his great-great-great-great-grandfather on his mother's side.

Posted by: Drraagh Jan 16 2007, 10:08 PM

One thing I noticed when I had first read this is that the world could use more people willing to help out, since the cops can't always be everywhere. However, if the cops were to find the person who did it, they'ld probably lock him up and throw away the key.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 16 2007, 10:10 PM

I disagree—we've got enough threats to our society as it is without giving the police both extra rights and the cooperation of the populace.

~J

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 17 2007, 12:14 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Macleod

Obviously.

Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 17 2007, 12:34 AM

QUOTE (Drraagh)

They probably would. In many jurisdictions they don't even look kindly on self defense.

In SR, there are some options. If you mage sees some Lone Star types hard pressed by whoever, send a spirit to use confusion and fear on the other guys. Or the mage could use magic directly. Just make sure you have Cleansing or that other metamagic that allows one to change their astral signature. Mundanes could fire a couple of aimed shots and run, enough to do a little damage but mostly as a distraction.

Posted by: SL James Jan 17 2007, 01:57 AM

QUOTE (Drraagh)

Lone Star would have shot everyone, and then shot the corpses... just to be sure.

Posted by: Fix-it Jan 17 2007, 05:02 AM

then dropped a few BTLs around the scene and screamed "SUBSTANCE ABUSE!"

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 17 2007, 06:04 AM

QUOTE (Thane36425)

QUOTE (Drraagh @ Jan 16 2007, 05:08 PM)

They probably would. In many jurisdictions they don't even look kindly on self defense.

That degree of 'self defence' its really hard to say. Since in this instance he wasnt defending himself, but some one else.

It's really abit of a legal grey area. The problem is in many areas there is self defence and then 'excessive force' in defending yourself. But 'excessive force' isnt really defined. It's generally accepted that if some one is trying to actively kill you and you 'accidentally' kill them it's ok. Technically speaking. In practice often you still wind up on charges (even if your never convicted) of manslaughter. Because then people ask "Well ddi you -really- have to kill them to stop them from killing you?"

I'll admit when it comes to self defence I'm very much an 'eye for an eye' type person. If I feel some one is trying to kill me. I will do my best to defend myself right up to probably killing said person. And before you say 'you dont really know what your talking about'. I unfortunately do. Never been shot at so far. But I've had at least one person try to kill me for some reason or other. And quite a few folk over the years have attacked me in general. I'd much rather have been left alone but that wasnt exactly a choice I was given.

So on the matter of 'simple' fist fights. Long as there isnt any 'life threatning injury' if your defending yourself, or another person. Your totally fine at least in the province I live in.

If you get jumped and you pull a knife though? Bit more iffy. You'll at the very least face some hard questions as to why you pulled a knife when the other guys didnt. But then it comes down to proving whta their intentions were. Afterall there's been a few beating deaths around here over the years. And more than a few stabbings.

The sword wielding thing is... I dunno thats hard to say. Around here he might actually be rewarded or at least congradulated for such action. At most, maybe a mild rebuke and confiscation of the sword. Afterall it's generally assumed that if you attack some one with a weapon, especially things like knives. You intend, not to harm but to kill that person. At that point almost anything goes when it comes to self defence... technically.

Theres... again just no easy answer. At the lower levels there's abit of an eye for an eye philosophy behind it but when you get up to things like murder and stopping a murderer. Well you just lock em up for life. There's no executions in this country dispite how ever many people a person may have sadistially murdered themselves. I dont necessarily agree with that myself. But that is how the world works currently. At least in my little part of it.

Posted by: Drraagh Jan 17 2007, 05:06 PM

In Canada, I'm kind of curious if this could be considered under the Good Samaritan Law. Granted the person wasn't injured or ill, though by their inaction, it could have led to that. ;P

Just a thought, though I doubt the police would see it that way. I do agree here in Canada, they'd be likely to do a minor arms charge and seize the sword, but probably look at giving him an acknowledgement of some sort, maybe not a public commendation, but something.

Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 17 2007, 05:21 PM

Kesslan, our opinions are pretty close on this. As far as I am concerned, if someone attacks you, you should be able to do whatever it takes to make them stop or run away. If they jump you and you pull a pistol and they run, fine. Same situation but they keep attacking, then they get shot. The excessive force idea is nonsense too. The only reason you would be attacked is because the attacker would think they greatly overpower you in the first place. And they very well may, especially if they have spent the last few years in prison eating well and pumping iron.

Anyway, this really isn't the place for that kind of discussion. In real life, if I had adequate weapons on me at the time, I probably would come to the aid of the police but maybe not a civilian. The reason is simple: the police might charge you with something minor but let you off, but a civilian is more likely sue. Things are a little more lenient around here though, I guess. After a hurricane a few years ago I patrolled the neighborhood with an openly displayed rifle. The police saw me and spoke to me and after promising to call in anything suspicious rather than get in a shoot out, everything was OK. Fortunately we didn't have any trouble on this end of town in the first place.

Posted by: SL James Jan 18 2007, 02:52 AM

QUOTE (Fix-it)

then dropped a few BTLs around the scene and screamed "SUBSTANCE ABUSE!"

Unnecessary. Besides, I think you meant drop a gun.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 18 2007, 02:58 AM

Beetles are easier to carry around than a spare firearm, and the standards are lower in the 2050s. Make it a personafix for a violent hand-to-hand fighter and you've got both in a chip that you won't even feel while carrying.

~J

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 18 2007, 08:00 AM

QUOTE (Drraagh)

I do agree here in Canada, they'd be likely to do a minor arms charge and seize the sword, but probably look at giving him an acknowledgement of some sort, maybe not a public commendation, but something.

Yeah. Canada is funny that way. There was some big fuss made in the newspapers here locally this past summer. This one goth type kid was wearing a belt made of disarmed rifle rounds (You know the ones that are either fake, or drilled out). And some moron freaked and called the cops claiming he had all sorts of weapons on him and stuff.

So here he is downtown being approaced by a squad of cops expecting an armed person with a machinegun kinda deal and he just chats em up. Actually concented to a search and let them take the belt. Even though the belt itself is 100% legal to have and own by anyone in Canada. Hell he probably bought it a few blocks away from where he was stopped.

But then when it comes to knives things get a little more iffy. Technically your not supposed to have a knife with a blade over 6 inches long. But their abit more forgiving of that. However if your being searched by police for any reason and you dont tell them you have a pocket knife. They can. Though they wont usually charge you with posession of a concealed weapon. Never mind that it's perfectly legal to have a pocket knife so long as your not actively trying to stab some one with it.

And then legaly your technically allowed to use 'equal force' in self defence. If so if some one attacks you with a baseball bat it's perfectly fine for you to pick up a lead pipe and bash him in the head.... technically.

The reality is even more muddled. And then when it comes to defending others... gah. It gets EVEN MORE Muddled. Technically you fall under the 'self defence' catagory as your defending some one else's life. An act the law doesnt require of you but it's technically encouraged by society and in the defence of another you also have to of course defend yourself thus why the self defence laws supposedly apply.

And then there's yet another difference if your a lisenced security guard thats on duty. Hell even if your off duty and they find out your a lisenced guard they'll be abit more leniant with you (Afterall the cops really do benifit by your presence. Since you get all the small crap to deal with so they dont)

And with security theres really.. yet more shades of grey. If your contracted security for example you've got some wierd restrictions. If your 'in house' security IE you work for the owner of the property your patroling. In the case of a store for this to qualify the store actually MUST own the building their in as well. If their renting you fall under contracted security. In such a situation your apparently by law allowed (Around here anyway) to carry a baseball bat. Though.. you wont ever see that. It's a funny thing. Your also effectively expected to step in if some oen else is attacked. I remember one place I worked at. Health card office actually, so government building. It was contracted security. But since it was for the goverment 'anything goes' when it went to selfdefence. The semi official line was litterally in the post orders. And I quote 'If some one is being attacked you are encouraged to intereven as if you yourself were being attacked with any means at your disposal'.

Thats litterally a green card for me to say... grab a fire extinquisher off the wall and club the guy over the head with it untill he's unconcious assuming he's so much as throwing a punch at some one. And it would have been legal too.

But not legal if I hadnt been a security guard.

It's really messed up that way.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 18 2007, 08:17 AM

"Equal Force", meaning that is someone walks up to you and pulls out his sword to attack then you can pull out your sword and fight him to the death but you can't just shoot him in the kneecaps?

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 18 2007, 08:54 AM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

"Equal Force", meaning that is someone walks up to you and pulls out his sword to attack then you can pull out your sword and fight him to the death but you can't just shoot him in the kneecaps?

Yeah. The shooting him to death instead of stabing him to death would be called into question. Actually.. so would stabbing him to death. But not as much as if you'd shot him to death.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 18 2007, 09:36 AM

Well, I meant non-lethal kneecap shots like in that famous scene from Terminator 2.

Posted by: Slump Jan 18 2007, 12:13 PM

I remember a case around Dallas, Texas where some guy coming back from hunting got a flat, and pulled to the side of the highway to change it. While he was changing his tire, he heard a gunshot, looked around, and saw, about 200 yards up, but on the other side of the highway, there was a patrol car with it's lights on, and some guy standing outside of his car pointing a pistol at the ground, as though he were about to shoot someone lying there, presumably the missing policeman. The hunter reached into his truck, pulled out his rifle, and dropped the Perp, then pulled out his cell phone and called 911.

It turns out the policeman was dead from the first shot, but the hunter got a commendation for defending the life of a policeman anyway.

That's one of the few things I like about texas.

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 18 2007, 12:18 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Well, I meant non-lethal kneecap shots like in that famous scene from Terminator 2.

Eh still counts as 'excessive force' probably. In Canda at least. It's really messed up. On a 'per person' basis. There's actually just as many guns in Canada as there is in the US.

The difference is Canada is over the top strict on gun laws while many areas in the US are arguably far too lax. Biggest example? In the US you have the same rights far as I know if your a gun owner or not.

In Canda you have less legal rights than a convicted multiple murder. A convicted multiple murderer still has a right to refuse entry and search of his home without a warrant to back it up. If you own a gun in Canada. You give up that right. The police can, at any time, and for any reason enter your home and search it. They usually wont without some reason. But they dont need a warrant to do it when they feel it's necessary as you owning a gun gives them 'probable cause'.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 18 2007, 01:59 PM

QUOTE (Thane36425)

The only reason you would be attacked is because the attacker would think they greatly overpower you in the first place. And they very well may, especially if they have spent the last few years in prison eating well and pumping iron.

But this is oversimplyfying. I sure do hope you teach anyone who looks like a gangster with a prison tattoo a lesson if they look at you sideways the lesson of their life. I bet they're nazis aswell huh? Trying to roll you for money for drugs too!

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 18 2007, 02:09 PM

Kesslan: Depends on what guns you own. IIRC, some of the federal licenses require the same for your stated location of storage.

QUOTE

in prison eating well and pumping iron.

Yep, just like a fun vacation. Absolutely. No doubt about it.

~J

Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 18 2007, 02:15 PM

QUOTE (Sir_Psycho)

What the hell? Some-one threatens to give you a trouncing and take the 20 bucks in your wallet and you take their life?

Excessive force is nonsense? If for some reason some-one shoves you or makes a threatening comment or gesture, you should be able to beat him within the edge of his life and then maybe kerbstomp him? Maybe I'm oversimplyfying your statement...

But this is oversimplyfying. I sure do hope you teach anyone who looks like a gangster with a prison tattoo a lesson if they look at you sideways the lesson of their life. I bet they're nazis aswell huh? Trying to roll you for money for drugs too!

I did say force enough to make them stop or run away. If they threaten, you can pull on them and if they run, fine. A mere trouncing can be very damaging in itself and personally, I prefer avoiding injury.

Do you shoot someone for an insult or a push? No. That really isn't even worth bothering with. That is something you walk away from. If, however, they escalate it into an assault while you are trying to get away, that's another matter.

Teach a person a lesson for how they dress or have tattoos? That's a silly thing to say. There are more than a few people like that around here and they aren't a problem. How people look can tell you a lot about them, but it is how they are acting that gives away more. If I see someone acting odd or giving me the eye I do pay more attention to them and work out how to avoid them. Situational awareness and avoiding trouble is also the first option.

But also like I said, this isn't a philosophy forum to debate this matter. It purpose is to discuss a game where characters kill and break things as part of the job description.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 18 2007, 02:40 PM

Right, because I was getting the vibe that in real life if some-one tries to mug you you take out your AK and blow them away. Sorry.

Posted by: SL James Jan 19 2007, 01:28 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jan 17 2007, 08:58 PM)

How the fuck are they supposed to know what an unjacked chip contains?

I mean... Unless you write "KILL ALL COPS!!! ARRRGHH!" on it in large glowing letters.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 19 2007, 01:51 AM

A fist fight can easily turn lethal, either intentionally or not. You don't have to be Bruce Lee to bash someone's head against a concrete sidewalk.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 19 2007, 01:58 AM

Exactly. You have the people with the badges, and they're saying three things:

1) He came at us swinging hard!

2) Look, he spent all his time "being" someone who kills people with his bare hands.

3) Isn't a great thing we shot him?

All without the hassle of carrying around one or more spare guns to drop.

~J

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 19 2007, 01:59 AM

I don't understand why the UK government doesn't want its subjects to carry weapons or even defend themselves. Don't they realize that there'd be less happy slappings would probably occur if happy slappings were a good way to get yourself killed? Hell, I wouldn't dare to happy slap someone in a place like pre-Katrina New Orleans because you never know who's got a firearm.

Posted by: cristomeyers Jan 19 2007, 02:16 AM

Police in LA: "Stop or I'll shoot!"

Police in UK: "Stop!...or I'll say stop again!"

Lone Star: "Stop! *blamblamblam!*"

Anyway, getting away from my sub-par attempt at humor. It's easier to keep violence from happening without firearms on the streets (apparently). BS? Probably, but there are far too many people that buy into that idea completely.

Honestly, I don't think my owning a gun is going to hurt anyone. But the idea that I now have the power to seriously wound someone else scares people witless.

Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 19 2007, 02:17 AM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

A fist fight can easily turn lethal, either intentionally or not. You don't have to be Bruce Lee to bash someone's head against a concrete sidewalk.

Or get a lucky shot and rupture a spleen.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 19 2007, 02:45 AM

QUOTE (cristomeyers)

Police in LA: "Stop or I'll shoot!"

Police in UK: "Stop!...or I'll say stop again!"

Lone Star: "*blamblamblam!* Stop!"

Fixed that for you.

~J

Posted by: cristomeyers Jan 19 2007, 02:58 AM

True enough, it is more of a "shoot first, shoot some more, spread some 'evidence' around, and smile for the media" organization.

Posted by: SL James Jan 19 2007, 04:40 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

QUOTE (cristomeyers @ Jan 18 2007, 09:16 PM)

Police in LA: "Stop or I'll shoot!"

Police in UK: "Stop!...or I'll say stop again!"

NYPD: "*blamblamblam!* Stop!"

Fixed that for you.

~J

And fixed for you.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 19 2007, 04:40 AM

Lone Star CSI: Seattle.

Crime Scene Instigation unit.

Posted by: jrpigman Jan 19 2007, 04:23 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

Lone Star CSI: Seattle.

Crime Scene Instigation unit.

aaaaand a division is added to my Lone Star roster

Posted by: Moirdryd Jan 20 2007, 01:07 AM

Ahh yes, our lovely laws in the UK....

He pulled a knife on you yes?

Yes.

So you hit him and knocked him cold in one?

Yes.

You know thats illegal yes?

It is?..

Yes it is. Now if you have let him knife you, then you wouldnt be in court.

To be fair, it doesnt always work this way. I have a friend who is a somewhat proficient martial artist (to put it mildly). He works at a local supermarket, chekcing the local carpark, sorting out the trolleys, grunt stuff. He was attacked, on CCTV i must add, by a guy who had noticed him talking to this guy's ex GF (who he wanted to get back with). My friend happened to be an old friend of hers from school. Nothing more. This guy left with some bruises. Nothing more was said once the police saw the footage after the `fight` (whichw as all of a few seconds) was reported by staff. Fast forwards a week or so. Same guy with two friends. They jump my friend in the carpark, on CCTV again. This time this idiot has a knife and puts it into my friend's left shoulder. My friend, seriouslly pissed off and now high on adrenaline as well breaks this guys arm in two place, some damage to the ribs and the guy's shin. Friend one jumps on my buddy's back, gets a broken nose and some ribs also hurt. Friend two turns and runs very very fast. Help arrives in very short order. My friend is taken to hospital as are his asailants. He is stitched up and released. His attackers are in for a while longer. No charges that were leveled came to anything. Idiot guy is informed that if he goes near my friends place of work again, is cuaght on camera especially acting violently twoards my friend, he`ll be facing some very very very serious charges. He was also sentenced for the knife attack.

So sometimes common sense prevails.

Posted by: cetiah Jan 20 2007, 03:49 AM

QUOTE (Moirdryd)

So sometimes common sense prevails.

Sure, assuming you let yourself get stabbed instead of wasting him with a well-placed burst with your smartlinked cyber-holstered Ares Predator...

Posted by: tisoz Jan 20 2007, 04:58 AM

Sorry, but my philosophy has always been, if someone instigates the crime, they take their chances as well as any consequences that arise. Just because the instigator did not read the situation well enough to carry out the crime is no reason for them not to have their ass handed to them.