Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 18 2007, 08:51 AM

They're epic and dangerous, but not depressing. What about you?

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 18 2007, 09:00 AM

Well I assume you mean as a GMed game. Me? I try to go for realism.

You murder some sec guard. You might get away with it a few times. Eventually some one will track you down and either try to kill you or put you in jail.

I tend to try to go for more action and 'epic' storyline at times. Its hard to say though. SR lends itself so very well to so many things. Also to me 'Epic' is really a scaled thing. Fighting an adult dragon surely is an 'epic' thing in SR. But so is ganger who fights his way up the ranks to become gang leader, changes the way the gang acts, gains more control and influence. And then uses that influence for good or evil. At the more 'epic' level you wind up fighting off the mob, other larger gangs and so forth.

I mean to me the way the SR world works for example even just doing a run in space. Doesnt matter what that run even is, is 'epic'. It's such a harsh, unforgiving atmosphere before you even have enemies to fight as it is. And it's the sort of thing only one in several hundred million people will ever get to actualy do durring your life time.

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 18 2007, 09:26 AM

My stories won't all be "Dude, I fought a dragon" epic. Like, one of them will be, maybe. Most of the "epic" storylines will be centered around doing things important to the characters. I think my definition of epic actually matches your definition of epic.

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 18 2007, 09:36 AM

But why no depressing? Thats like.. the antithesis of Dysetopian! Which is what SR is all about!

Look at you! Your a runer! Yesss.. you are. And what's that your eating? Soy an Krill again! WOoohoo!

Oh look and your friend billy is now a BTL addict. And so is mom. She's also turned to prostitution and booze.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 18 2007, 10:17 AM

Heh, Kesslan, that sounds horrible for a story. Emo, our stories are aventures worthy of being written about. In our current game, we're the Elite Force for the new Denver Peace Keeping force, all with Diplomatic Immunity. We mostly investigate paranormal activity due to GhostWalker's obsession with unique spirits, of course, putting us directly against certain underground Aztlan types. Who's got time for bothering with wah-wah stories like family members being BTL addicts or who's eating Soy this evening? There's a reason you never see good novels with a chapter on how horrible the food was, and details on the pooping session afterwards... That stuff's boring.

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 18 2007, 10:22 AM

LOL yeah but think of the character hooks?

Here you are this big bad mega successful runner. Then you find out Mom is into the booze and beatles. Then comes along Mr.J.

Mr J: Say... I heard about your... family problems. Ontop of offering you 20,000 for this job. We would be willing to.... assist you with your problems.
Runner: What's the catch?
Mr J: You have to agree to be on retainer for us. Think about it. Mom can be happy again. We'll get her all the best care. A nice place to live... All you have to do is work only for us. Thats it. No other strings attached.

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 18 2007, 10:24 AM

Ohh! ANd to make it worse.

They'll try to get you to do a job you dont like and hold dear old mom as 'incentive' over your head. Afterall... we wouldnt want dear old mommy to have an accident now would we?

So then you gotta get mom out from under the clutches of the Megas and also explain to her just why exactly your taking away all this shiny new stuff she's gotten used to having.

Posted by: Trigger Jan 18 2007, 10:55 AM

Posted by: ErrosCallidus Jan 18 2007, 11:03 AM

I'm with you K. The gittier the game the more SR is "real." The gap between the 'have's' and 'have not's' in the SR 2070 is so huge that even a really successful runner will still not look like he's doing well compared to a lifetime wage slave. Though, as in real life, it's easy for anybody to overlook the squlor and general hoplessness of the majority of the world so long as "me and mine" are taken care of. If the only time you char sees somebody being raped is on the trid's then it won't be "real" to the char until it's thier sister. Which leads to my second caveat.

The type of game you wind up playing will reflect your particular tastes/definition of 'epic'/maturity level and what you want to experience in the SR world. (Just like RL!! ) You can run the slums or shoot high and be a uber-cool GSG-9 operative. The happy thing in SR is you don't have to actually 'work your way out of the gutter' you can choose your background pretty easily. For my tastes I prefer SR to be gritty and real. As described by Kesslan.

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 18 2007, 11:10 AM

Verry well Just for you ErrosCallidus I give you your gritty background!

You: Are an ork!

Dad: Dad is a mild acoholic wageslave. He doesnt admit to his drinking problems either, and he's a mean drunk. Allways comes home from work and has a shot of synthrum. And synthwine at dinner.

Mom: Mom used to work, used to be a hard workign waitess. These days she's a burnout. Goes out withotu speaking to family for hours on end. SOme times doenst come home till the morning. Usually drunk. You've also just recently learned that not only is she using this 'away time' to get her BTL fix. But she's lately been cheating on dad with.. well your not sure just how many men. There's hints that she's actually selling herself out to help pay for ther BTL addiction.

Your gay younger brother was recently murdered by some Humanis punks. And your desire for revenge is part of what helped drive you into the shadows.

Your sister Bethany pretty much just keeps to herself. And is a flat out heavy goigng angsty gothgirl. SHe's deifnately played around with a few 'recreational' drugs and hangs out with questinoable guys. But doesnt seem to be 'really' hurting herself. SHe's getting by somehow dispite her big fights with mom and dad.

Also your cat fluffikins has recently dissapeared. There's hints that.. oddly enough your goldfish may have eaten him.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 18 2007, 11:11 AM

Nothing wrong with the scenario you laid out Kesslan, especially if someone bought the dependant flaw. I wasn't talking about that, because I wouldn't consider that sort of story 'depressing'.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 18 2007, 11:13 AM

That's not a gritty background, that's a sob story. I hate soap-opera games, in our games, you could write up a background like that, but it wouldn't factor into most of the games at all. O.o

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 18 2007, 11:34 AM

Ehh.. yes and no. Thing is what is 'grit'? 'Grit' is the sob stories. What's a sob story? Personal hardships. What are hardships? 'Grit'. Thus Grit is the sobstories, the sobstories are grit.

You can certainly overdo it. But asside from the whole gold fish eating the cat thing. You could very well wind up with a family like that in SR. It happens clsoe enough in RL afterall.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 18 2007, 11:48 AM

That's the problem. I recognize and accept that alot of people, especially since the advent of the World of Darkness game, go for a 'realistic' approach to the game. However, I play games to not simulate RL. My character can fly, move things with his mind, and lives in a world where dragons and elves are common place. Sure, you can focus on the negative side if that's what it takes for you to tell a story. Us, we're gonaa focus on the other side of things. The actual Runs and adventures. To each his own though, I don't need to dwell on your family defects to tell an awesome shadowrun story.

Posted by: Konsaki Jan 18 2007, 11:48 AM

The difference between Grit and Sobstory is very small.

Kesslan does have a good basic background for both right there, but to really determine which one it is depends on how the game/story plays out.

If the character is all crying and angsty over the tough world and all it threw at him, but doesnt do anything, its a sob story.
If the character goes, 'Damn, my life sucks... I need to change something and I think I'll do this to change it', it's Grit.

At least that's my take on it.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 18 2007, 11:51 AM

Actually, 'grit' deals with hardship. Having a brother killed can be grit. Making him gay makes it a sob story. Mom working hard to make ends meet and being dependant on something like alcohol is grit. Selling her body makes it a sob story. At least in my opinion.

Posted by: Konsaki Jan 18 2007, 11:52 AM

So you just think his backstory is 'over the top'...

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 18 2007, 11:59 AM

Yes, and I think the manner it was done makes it a sob story. When the objective is to make the reader feel sorry for more than the character. Not only did he endure his brother's death, but his poor brother endured gay persecution. Not only did he endure a hard life due to limited income, but feel sorry for his mom who is making a slut out of herself. It's more than just 'over the top', it's a sob story.

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 18 2007, 12:08 PM

Ehh. The brother being gay doesnt have a thing to do with it being a 'sob story'. This is shadowrun remember? Gay is just as normal and every day as 'straight'. It's public. It's not the least bit 'taboo' in the world of SR.

The fact that he's gay in SR simply defines the sort of friends he was likely to have. Friends that might want to help you get revenge or something. Friends who, like your now deceased brother are probably also gay for at least part of it. It might not under SR be 'taboo' and it might be totally acceptable. But it still is a sort of different 'social circle' than if he was straight.

So where exactly did this gay persecution come in? No one cares that he's gay. And while the example is 'over the top.' Again. Some times life really is like that to one degree or another. One guy I was friends with in highschool. His parents were both washed up druggies. His sister was this sort of 'typical goth girl'.

He started to get into harder drugs and we slapped em about and gave him a hard time over it so he went back to pot. Did a few years in the military and sort of sorted his life out since. He still hasnt made much of his life, probably never will. But thats reality for you.

Course even your 'usual' poor family doesnt have qutie so much of a stacked deck. But if there's one problem there's usually quite a few.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 18 2007, 12:14 PM

[Edit]Never mind[/Edit]

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 18 2007, 12:20 PM

I do agree with you Sphynx that not everyone wants the same type of game as another. Dont get me wrong. I love a big blazing action scene as much as anyone else. But I ALSO very much enjoy the social interaction side of RPGs.

I like my NPCs and PCs to actually 'feel alive'. Have their own motivations etc. I will some times go 'over the top'. Simply so that tehre's a more likely chance I can find something to use as a plot hook down the road.

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 18 2007, 12:30 PM

Oh god, this discussion does remind me of one thing one GM I had used to do. He gave us this 'eccentric' fixer. And by god he was.

My first run in with this character was the usual call up about a job. And I'd allready been given the background that he was an 'eccentric' and so on and prefered 'eccentric things'. So when I got asked did I want a staright up or 'eccentric' job... I sadly chose the latter.

So i'm went sort of like this (I'm making most of this up, some pulling from memory but it should give you a good idea).

I went out the door, headed on over to X street. There I met a man with a baguette and a dirt bike. I then had to take the dirt bike over yonder hill, pass it on to some other guy who woudl be there, and take his car. Drive the car on out to such and such a place. Pick up an onvelope that was under a rock of a specific tree. Then follow those directions to another car. Swap cars, find more instructions under the seat. Drive to X location. Leave the car in a public parking lot. HOp a bus down to Y street. Go into a vidphone booth, pick up a note taped underneath it. Then go to the bar it indicated.

So I get there to find otu of course everyone else 'took the normal route'. And just went straight from home to this downtown bar to meet wtih him in person.

Heh.

In the end the Fixer DID do alot more favours for me etc than he ever would for anyoen else. But buy god I started dreading his 'eccentric' ideas.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 18 2007, 01:12 PM

That's... the coolest thing ever.

Grit is just how the gamesmaster tells the story, it's in the descriptive language, it's what you do to stop this being a PG 13 action movie with the dude with the cool robotic arm and the pretty girl who casts fireballs at the big bad guy.

For instance, when we find a dead body, "you find a dead body, there's some blood", or we chuck on an extra 4 to the target number so we can go for that super cool headshot, there-by staging up damage one level and negating armor bonus. Oh check it, 4 successes! Staged to D! Yep, so we describe it as "he's dead before he hits the ground."

An example of how I handle "grit" is in the descriptions. On a Stealth Adept (Vaziel) I gm's way through a subway/sewer system, the waft or rust and blood toouched his nostrils. Upon further inspection, the body of a maintenance worker lay, ribcage jutting out from a torn and bloodied uniform, his dead eyes staring past Vaziel. As Vaziel realised he was standing in a pool of "John"'s viscera, he span at a noise, to see the milky eyes of a ghoul staring at him, blood caked his face. Vaziel's pistol was out in front of him and he pulled the trigger. The bullet caught the ghoul in the throat, sending him crashing to the ground at Vaziels feet. The ghoul was as good as dead, aside from the gurgling noises as the blood bubbled from the hole in his neck, and the clumsy clutching at Vaziels boot. Vaziel took aim and fired into the ghoul. The twitching stopped.

Take the time to describe the harsh world of Shadowrun, and try not to paint things too black and white.

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 18 2007, 01:22 PM

Totally. But thats why in the end I allways will prefer a good MUSH game to pen and paper. You can just get... so much more discriptive. I mean yeah.. you can do it vocally too. But for me it's alot harder to do than typing up a good paragraph or two to describe my own actions, or those of others.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 18 2007, 02:25 PM

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 18 2007, 02:38 PM

Maybe the sec guard's phone rings and you pick up to stifle the noise.
"Honey, what time are you coming home? Baby jacob just said his first word! He can't wait to show daddy? So --"
*runner hangs up*

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 18 2007, 02:42 PM

"I'm coming home now. Where do we live again?" *Mute on* "Call the ghouls, we've got meat to sell."

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=8077. Short version: Shadowrunners ruin lives for a living. If their mental well-being depends on not realizing this, they really should find another line of work.

~J

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 18 2007, 03:42 PM

You know what I think? I know, you don't care, but anyhows... Too many kids raised on the old AFA suggestion to parents to use roleplaying as a tool to teach behaviour. I don't go to a shadowrun game to learn about morality. I play a gun slinging character in a world where everyone carries a weapon (look at any crowd scene in any of the books) living in the darkest of shadows, fighting against 'the man'. Now, I don't play as cold as Kagetenshi suggests, but I'm also not gonna roleplay a gut-wrenching puke scene over killing my first man, or break down into tears because some security guard left a 6 month old behind when he was killed for protecting an evil corp either.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 18 2007, 04:06 PM

Posted by: Jeremiah Legacy Jan 18 2007, 05:15 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 18 2007, 05:23 PM

I lean a bit more towards Road Warrior and Robocop, where the ones that strive to rise above get pulled under.

~J

Posted by: mfb Jan 18 2007, 05:26 PM

i don't tend to go for depressing. depressing is... well, depressing. instead, i shoot for grim and bitter. if a character's brother dies (gay or not), i don't focus on the funeral, i focus on tracking down the fucker that killed him and making him pay.

Posted by: 2bit Jan 18 2007, 08:08 PM

This is the rule I go by: (repost)

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 18 2007, 08:14 PM

Y'know, I remember reading that a while back, and liking the idea but disagreeing for reasons I couldn't put my finger on.

I thought about it for a while, and I realized that the reason I didn't like it was because it was the ideal that I've thus far been unsuccessful in realizing. I still don't pull it off properly, but I think you're pretty much right on the mark there.

~J

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 18 2007, 08:14 PM

See, I love that. I love dark and gritty. I recently started a new campaign and to get everyone started I wrote a little campaign primer to detail recent events and sort of where they were at the beginning.
I don't want to go into too much detail 'cause it's not that important to the discussion, but the end result was some of my players reading it and saying "Man, I feel so hopeless, this just makes me want to roll over and die."
So I had to rewrite it. It was still dark and grim and gritty, but I had to add some glimmers of hope.
Sissies.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 18 2007, 08:16 PM

Do you have a copy of the original? I'd like to read it.

~J

Posted by: nezumi Jan 18 2007, 08:58 PM

I'm a GM, so I rarely get to play in my own games, and I've decided long ago the best way to get players is to run a game the players (at least think) they're enjoying. There are a few rules then that I've begun to run under.

If the players are kids, you need to give them bait. That's karma, cash and success. It doesn't have to come easy, but it needs to come eventually. Kids need to feel they're making progress, they need the money shot. Then, once they feel comfortable with themselves and the world they operate in, you blow the whole damn thing up and make them start again.

If the players are a little more experienced, you can temper it a little more. They'll provide their own motivations beyond cash and karma. They don't expect it to come easy and they can satiate themselves on the scraps you toss them. Grit in descriptions is basically a requirement (the young people won't pay attention and it might even keep them from reading the post at all, so keep it light with them). A feeling of desperation and depression (but not tear-jerker) should fill everything, but they usually want to feel they can achieve THEIR goals, whatever they may be. They generally want to feel stuff is personal, want to have a connection between the character and the world going on around them. Since I rarely game with experienced runners, this is mostly gathered from comments I've seen people put here.

I have reason to believe that there is a group beyond that, the true cyberpunk. These people expect nothing and give nothing. They're already broken and expect the world to be too. This is where true grit comes in, the true dance with insanity. Every action is futile. They get karma, but characters die too fast or are crippled too quickly to ever reach a plateau of success. Cash is spent faster than it comes in. By virtue of playing, they are automatically losing. They are in the worst conceivable distopian world, and the players are enjoying it. The world is a giant, stinky poop and they're just one maggot underneath it all. I suspect players at this level either get their gaming in small doses or require regular psychological evaluations. I only hope I too can, one day, game at this level of grit and philosophical impotence.


As for the ideas already suggested -
I'd enjoy playing Kesslan's game, assuming that playing family psychiatrist wasn't the core of the game. The NPCs should tie into the plot, but should not dominate it (like he suggested, I receive payment for a run that relates directly to my dependent NPCs or some such).

I agree with 2bit's summary, but like Kage, I don't think it is easily done in Shadowrun, and I can tell you why in one word: Magic. In cyberpunk (the genre and the game line), cyberware is selling your humanity for a clear personal advantage. It perfectly sums up what 2bit is suggesting. However in Shadowrun we have a third factor, magic. Players can pursue cyberware, bartering humanity and ability, or magic, where humanity IS ability. In SR, magic is really 'good' from almost any objective sense. It runs off of what is apparently limitless, environmentally friendly power, it's green, it makes the magic pixies happy, and it puts out more power than its mundane counterparts.

As a result, for game balance, the costs of cyberware had to be nerfed. You really don't lose much when you lose essence, you just lose magic and, for a while, you're about even with them.

If you want to make 2bit's ideas work, first fix magic. Magic is not gritty, it's happy bunnies (at least SR magic is). Make it dirty, expensive, dangerous. Then, once magic is available but shortens your life by a few years with every use, make cyberware as expensive as it should be. Then you maintain game balance and introduce grit.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 18 2007, 09:13 PM

Posted by: Fortune Jan 18 2007, 09:39 PM

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 18 2007, 10:12 PM

The cyber- in cyberpunk is not cyberware. It is cyberspace. Cyberware is neither integral nor necessary to the cyberpuk genre. It is useful, yes, but not at all necessary. Megacorps and oppressive authorities aren't necessary, for that matter
The point of cyberpunk is how human social structures change in response to ubiquitous world-wide information and communications systems. It is about the global culture that forms when everyone and everything is interconnected and about the countercultures and sub-societies that form when people who have access to this world-wide infocom network choose to rebel against the increasingly standardized global norms.

Losing humanity is not at all necessary and losing humanity to cyberware is counterproductive. When one loses humanity in cyberpunk it should be lost to the whole of humanity, ironically. The conformist individual is reduced to a cog in the great machine because he chooses to subsume his individuality in exchange for an easy life within the global society. Hopeless then comes when that those who feel that they are rebelling against the system are, in fact, sacrificing their individuality to a different system and both systems are simply part of a larger whole.


As for grit, I'm going to reiterate my statement that grit in games depends on the lack of defined good and bad. Thus, the players are left to ask the question "if we aren't the good guys and we aren't the bad guys then who are we?"
Some will accept this and simply state "I'm the guy with the gun", accepting the amorality of the situation. Others will rebel against it and completely horrified when the see the damage that their actions cause or the damage that their refusal to act has caused. In the end, there must not be a single best choice, only many choices that are equally wrong in their own way.

Posted by: nezumi Jan 18 2007, 10:36 PM

Hyzamarca, I agree with your statements, but I do not feel they add or take away from mine. They're simply more broad.

In most cyberpunk stories (not all, but most), there is cyberware. In most cyberpunk stories and in the RPG line, cyberware reduces your humanity. It does not necessarily reduce it in the way you described it (although in some cases it does), but it most certainly does reduce it.

Where our two posts actually come to meet is when you say "As for grit, I'm going to reiterate my statement that grit in games depends on the lack of defined good and bad."

I would go one more and add that grit isn't just where an action is ethically ambiguous, but where its effectiveness is ambiguous, in other words, when you feel that anything you do may be completely futile. Saying nothing is clearly good or bad is rather soft, since I can say that right now about the real world, things are only good or bad depending on the subjective point of view. Grit is taking it the next step, assuming we've established the point of view and the ultimate "good" we are trying to achieve, any given action is ambiguously good or bad because it may not get us any closer to that goal, or may cost us another, equally valuable goal.

This is where 2bit's suggestion comes in, "anything your players consider a gain needs to come at a price. If they cheat this rule, karma comes to kick them in the ass later." His focus was specifically on losing your soul in order to achieve your ends (since obviously everyone can agree their soul is valuable, this still feeds into your point - if you finally get a secure lifestyle but lose your soul in the process, was it 'good' or 'bad'?)

Cyberware is a critical example to this, since every PC makes the choice about getting cyber or not. Cyber, unfortunately, is a decision where it is almost certainly "good" (assuming you can afford it and you're not magically active), and magic is almost certainly "good". I say, make them ambiguous. Neither cyber nor magic should be clearly and obviously good. They should give you a greater chance at succeeding at one personal goal, at a cost to another equally valuable one.


Does this make sense?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 18 2007, 10:53 PM

IMO, this brings up a need to find a way in which magic is dehumanizing, alienating, and soul-destroying. It also highlights the need for a little "Alienation" flavourtext on various types of cyberware indicating how the cyberware helps create a gulf between the possessor and the rest of humanity, and common ways that is expressed.

~J

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 18 2007, 11:19 PM

My stories are depressing because they're so poorly written.


It would amuse me to no end if we had a fan-made Lovecraftian approach to magic where using magic makes you insane and evil.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 18 2007, 11:34 PM

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 18 2007, 11:54 PM

You're a good writer, Wounded. Why and how are your campaigns shittily written?

Posted by: 2bit Jan 19 2007, 12:07 AM

The example that comes immediately to mind is how Johnny Mnemonic has to give up some of his childhood memories for disk space.

Initiation is a really good starting point for any dehumanizing aspects you want to introduce to your shadowrun magic. There are a lot of aspects introduced in the original Grimoire which you can introduce in very real ways to your game:

1 - Initiates devote their lives to magic. The closer they get to their tradition's Magic Ideal, the less like their original selves they become.

2 - Magic Groups - Require a group for initiation, and require each one to have a patron. I already do this in my games. Magic groups are fucking awesome. Make mortals beg, plead, cheat, plot, and scheme for arcane knowledge of the higher mysteries of magic. Magic groups can require anything of the PCs.

3 - Like initiation, metaplanar travel is mind-altering. Give the players a "bad trip" once in awhile. You can do anything to the players there, and it can affect them for life. Hand out edges and flaws. Tell them they have learned the free spirit's true name, but they now have no recollection of their father.

I always keep the trade-off in mind. The characters don't grow, they are shaped.

Posted by: cetiah Jan 19 2007, 12:07 AM

I tried to be gritty. I really did. I tried to do the whole hardcore mercenary, My Johnson needs a job done, another day another nuyen, hardcore in-your-face, get off my turf type game. I tried.

I need the fantasy good-vs-evil conflicts. I'm suffering withdraw symptoms. I see dark cultists everywhere I look and I'm pretty sure this nail I found on the street is a Holy Blade. It speaks to me. It tells me to do stuff. Stuff that's very, very... well, Good.

I'm going to have an apocalypse in my next run, damn it.

Posted by: mfb Jan 19 2007, 12:10 AM

ew. to each their own...

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 19 2007, 01:04 AM

Posted by: SL James Jan 19 2007, 01:05 AM

Posted by: Jeremiah Legacy Jan 19 2007, 06:02 AM

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 19 2007, 06:24 AM

See everyone seems to have varying degrees of ideals of what 'grit' is etc. This is why personally, I try to find not only groups that more or less like my own versions of such. But also when GMing, I try to find out what the PCs really -want-. What do they -expect- out of a specific setting? I'll also try to test the limits to the poitn where it's like 'Dude thats totally overdoing it' or 'Man.. thats boring'.

That way you can find a good middleground that keeps pretty much everyone happy. So I mean you might find a group that likes. Pain! Death! Adverstity! Mom's on drugs! Oh look something *shiny!* pain! Death! Pain! Pain! Aversity! Your friend bob has been murdered! *REVENGE!* *somethign Shiny!* You get laid! You now have STD! Crap you cant afford the cure! *do some evil deeds!* now you can! Sweet! Have more sex with a hooker to celebrate! God damn those STDs are back! FUCK!

Posted by: Blade Jan 19 2007, 09:28 AM

Those STD are back ? I've only got 10 years to live ? That's fine with me, 10 years are enough.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 19 2007, 09:49 AM

I think Magic can be made gritty, hell we've got some pretty crazy magical threats like blood magic and insect spirits. Blood magic is scary in fairly obvious "ooh they do evil things" way. Insect Spirits are made scary if you don't operate them as "evil", but like insects; Odd (i mean fraggin' wierd), inhuman, blindly expansionist, they are scary in the same way an insect is when you look at them under a microscope, they're visually disgusting composites of insect invaders and brutally enslaved humans.

About the magically active being among us, like Cap Chaos said, some-one can road rage at you and throw a fireball at you. Magic puts powers in the hands of one in every 100 metahumans, it does not descriminate, it can be a tool in the hands of murderers, rapists, perverts (hello astral projection!), it doesn't just get bestowed upon the virtuous.

For the magically active, life isn't so glamorous either. Your abilitys WILL make a whole lot of people afraid of you, it's hard to find those who understand you, let alone come to terms with your own powers. What happens when you get a magic related trouncing by some local gang members, "freak" burnt onto your lawn, and when you get so mad you retaliate, you're expelled from your school because you just gave some of your classmates 2nd degree burns.

On the other hand, you are singled out for corporate service, even if you don't agree with what they do. You refuse? Oh hey, you just got fired from your job at the coffeehouse, and you don't know why. They keep on pestering you to join up. Your cat shows up dead. They show up at your door to ask you again. Your parents talk to you, they really need the money, they say it's your responsibility, and since everyone else is refusing to hire you, you sign up for the corps. Unethical Magical testing? Dangerous security/corp military work?

Every time you cast a spell, you feel drain. While it's easy to describe as 'you're tired', it hurts, even if it's just stun damage. Every time you want to use an ability, you feel pain, mucle aches, bruises, cracked skin, blood noses, sore joints and maybe worse. And let's not mention physical drain.

One mistake (IMO) I've noticed when GM's/Fiction writers describe Spirits is as too human. They speak, they help you out with favors, etc. Spirits aren't human, they don't make any sense, they can be summoned and bound through conjuring, but it doesn't make you their buddies. You have to live with that you're Awakened, and therefore more exposed to spirits, you could cut a shortcut through the local tip on your way to work and have the skin boiled off your bones. Not to mention any spirits you may come across through Astral travel.

Speaking of Astral Travel, shit, that's scary as it is. It's like going swimming, if you're smart, and a strong swimmer, you'll probably be fine, but go too far, or too deep, you might never make it back again. And some-one else described how crazy the metaplanes are.

And let's not forget the one phrase, that is the worst thing about being awakened:

"Geek the mage first!"

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 19 2007, 09:50 AM

I knew a girl who's mother was on drugs, once. She had a real hard life. One of he mothers boyfriends raped her repeatedly, she started cutting herself to escape the pain but eventually had enough and ran away. So had no job skills and was living on the streets when a pimp found her and seduced her into a life of prostitution. She started taking drugs to numb the pain, first crack and then heroin. Then, she started getting sick. She got HIV from a John or a needle, she doesn't know which, and ended up with full blown aids. She tried to kill herself by hanging but the shower curtain rod broke under her weight and she ended up stuck in a hospital bed paralyzed from the neck down.

And then she was beamed up to the Enterprise-D, which had traveled back in time on a mission to rescue an endangered monkey so that it could tell his space-monkey cousins to not blow up Earth, due to a transporter error. Since she was going to die that night anyway they took her with them. 24th century medical technology was able to cure her aids, repair her spine, and detox her instantly. This was very fortuitous because as soon as she recovered she had to save the Enterprise from evil Romulans and she was the only one who could do because somehow everyone else became too stupid to think of the simplest and most obvious solution to their predicament.
The bridge crew was so grateful for her quick thinking that they immediately stripped off all of their clothes and she had a 5-way with Troi, Piccard, Riker, and Data.
Her name was Mary Sue

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 19 2007, 10:14 AM

LOL hyzmarca.

Yeah. This is why I dont allways let runners have a way to 'fix' hardships. But you know ultimately most PC runners to one degree or another fall under that 'Mary Sue' umbrella somewhere.

Hmm this speak of spirits makes me want to introduce some time a character based on Gabriel from the movie Constantine. Where she/he/it? Goes abit psycho and decides to unleash hell on earth because 'humans only really shine through adversity!'. And then when, instead of killing her Constantine punches her in the face she congradulates him for 'choosing the higher path'.

Think about a spirit based off that concept?

Might be abit fun anyway. Or hell maybe not even a spirit but some rich crazy guy.

Posted by: ErrosCallidus Jan 19 2007, 04:03 PM

Hey nezumi... when you start the hardcore cybergame let me know I'm all in on that. I do tend to run towards simulating life and loss a little more in an SR. to each his own.

For magic ruining you life... I've just started a game on DS (Fade to Blood) where we're running the intro stories for HOW a group of people start running. The char I'm running is a priest who's awakened but doesn't know it. I can't go into too much detail, but it's already screwing with his worldview and how other people percieve him. I think there's hints of this type of thing in the fluff, but is really up to us to flesh out the 'cost' of magic. It's reality and mind altering stuff the affects can't be easiliy 'quantified' like essence loss and nuyen outlay of cyberware. Unless somebody with a whole lot more time and SR magic Guru-ness (Ancient History comes to mind) lays out some sort of system of "soul loss" to mana.. it's going to be more of a personal role play affect on a magical character.

parting shot, "Grit is: when Shit Happens, the runner rolls it, smokes it, and shoots the fucker shoveling it at him." or tries to struggle is where story happens

Posted by: 2bit Jan 19 2007, 04:08 PM

toxic guidance spirit?

Posted by: nezumi Jan 19 2007, 06:28 PM

Psycho, I feel like a good metaphor for what you're saying is to compare magic to a gun. Some bad people have guns. Sometimes when you have a gun, people more powerful than you make you do bad things with it. Sometimes people fear you because you have a gun, or they don't understand why you'd want to keep the gun. Maintaining the gun means you talk with some weird folks, gun nuts and military veterans, who just don't think like normal civilians.

But ultimately, my response would have to be, you have a gun! Sure, people might not like it if you show it to them, but you have a gun and you got it for free.

Cyberware would be like if you cut off your right hand to get a gun. You can't hide it (easily), and you made a clear sacrifice.

Sure, having magic might be tough at times, but it's a lot nicer than not having magic.

Erros - since I've never played in or run a game like that, I wouldn't know quite where to start! But I'll keep in mind that I"m not alone in wanting to see one.

Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 19 2007, 06:47 PM

A lot of my stories are bounty hunting types. That can be ghouls in any number of cities, juggernauts in the deep south, Wyverns harassing cattle ranches, or the special trip toe Amazonia to hunt some of the few bounties there. And of course there are toxics and bugs to hunt as well. That can be kind of depressing, espcially the ghouls and bugs: their nests being dreadful places.

I try to keep actual Shadowruns rather neutral, but that depends on how the characters act. Slaughtering a lot of guards gets a story on the news about it, complete with tearful family members and all that. Makes things hot for them for a while. I'll admit I've wiped out really bloodthirsty teams too, but then that's what happens if you go around killing everyone during a run. Too many people come gunning for you. Kill a bunch of gangers and you'd probably get a medal, but killing citizens, that's another matter.

I'll agree though that there is a strong dystopian view in the game. In many published adventures, the astral environment in most corporate areas is described as feeling dead or depressed, beaten down. This is especially true in the worker's areas and homes. It must really suck being a mage doing astral recon in places like that.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 19 2007, 07:42 PM

Does slaughtering ghouls get a tearful news story with their friends and family members?

~J

Posted by: SL James Jan 19 2007, 08:41 PM

Well... The news runs weepy stories of other mass animal killings...

Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 19 2007, 09:42 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 19 2007, 09:53 PM

That's not true. People bitched and moaned quite a bit when it was discovered that the Third Reich had been killing Poles, Soviets, Jews, et al, but people aren't very cute at all.

~J

Posted by: cristomeyers Jan 19 2007, 09:57 PM

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 19 2007, 10:42 PM

Posted by: SL James Jan 19 2007, 11:30 PM

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 20 2007, 05:46 AM

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 20 2007, 05:49 AM

pffft... dragon for president yadda yadda...

Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2007, 06:13 AM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 20 2007, 06:14 AM

I was going to come up with a parody for that, but it works too well with most of the lyrics unchanged to do anything with.

~J

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 20 2007, 06:17 AM

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 20 2007, 06:29 AM

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 20 2007, 06:36 AM

Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2007, 06:39 AM

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 20 2007, 06:42 AM

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 20 2007, 06:47 AM

Shapeshifters are animals, no one has any clue what exactly spirits are, and ghouls are people with magical AIDS. Ghouls need a fresh supply of rotting corpses and feral ghouls will kill to get them if left to their own devices, for that reason they are generally locked up in mental institutions or worse. Sentient ghouls, which the majority of people with the disease are, are perfectly capable of living in society.

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 20 2007, 06:54 AM

Shapeshifters are animals that can turn into people, talk and even pretend to be a normal person. I think that makes them more than 'just another animal.'

They might be abit slow on the uptake but who wouldnt be from an 'undeducated' background? At worst you could consider them barbarians since they go by the law of the land rather than some arbitrary decision that says you shouldnt kill some one when they threaten you.

Posted by: SL James Jan 20 2007, 07:39 AM

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 20 2007, 08:21 AM

Reversed, my mistake.

However, bounties should have been repealed due to the fact that they inevitably lead to for-profit ghoul farming.

Edit:

Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2007, 01:40 PM

The actual bounty topic was what I was referring to earlier, although I admit I had forgotten about SO 162 being repealed.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 20 2007, 03:00 PM

I feel sorry for ghouls, In some cases I would rather do standard wetwork rather than racking up ghoul kills for bounty sake.

They need badges that say "Hug me, I won't make you sick "

Posted by: Bodak Jan 20 2007, 04:08 PM

I'm just surprised this thread wasn't another Poll.

Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 20 2007, 06:13 PM

I never did understand why the developers took the this track with ghouls, trying to make them sort of the underdog. They aren't any different from vampires and Wendigo, both also caused by viruses. So far as I know there has never been a push to lift bounties on those two.

Now, maybe if the "sentient" ghouls were to live a certain and eat only bodies of people who left them to the ghouls, that would be one thing. But the feral kind aren't any different from vampires.

If I remember correctly from the canon, ghouls don't often breed but more often increse their numbers by infecting others. They probably took that out in SR4, but I know it was true in SR3 because a big deal was made of it in Bug City. That being the case, if there was a ghouls farm, it would probably be being run by ghouls to increase their numbers.

Posted by: SL James Jan 20 2007, 07:41 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 20 2007, 07:51 PM

No, actually, it does change the fact that they're different species. That's where the line is drawn, that's the basic test of speciation. Exceptions are made if offspring can be produced but fertile offspring cannot, but ligers and tigons are typically fertile—hence, lions and tigers cannot be considered different species. The fact that they are labeled as such is, AFAIK, an artifact of the late discovery of their joint fertility.

~J

Posted by: SL James Jan 20 2007, 08:07 PM

Fair enough.

Since I've never seen anything stating otherwise, under that premise I will have to believe that ghouls cannot reproduce with metahumans (or vampires, for that matter).

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 22 2007, 05:34 PM

Posted by: Lindt Jan 22 2007, 10:08 PM

Posted by: Kozbot Jan 25 2007, 10:12 AM

I'd say my SR stories tend towards depressing, we play other games for uplifting good fun times. I generally focus on the fact that the world is hosed and there isn't anything you can do about it. I let my players blow away as many NPCs as they want, the current group a little more then normal as I've got a few people that like to just rack up a body count to blow off steam from a week of work, but I do throw in that they just killed a person. Someone with a family, hopes, dreams, ambitions, and all that, and they just ended it in a heartbeat. I've got a few players that go well with it a few that are like "eh, I'm a sociopath, I don't care about killing people".

I do have to chime in on the 'grit' vs 'sob story' as I've got what I think are pretty good examples in my current group.

First the 'grit' character. He's a street shaman that follows gargoyle. He's a born and bred barrens punk. He survived because of his gang and has traded more then a few friends for his own life. He does what's needed to survive, though part of the gargoyle he does what he can to help his tribe. When we started the campaign he had a gang full of friends. Over time they've all gotten killed off. He used to run to maybe buy a better life for his childhood chums. Now he's not sure why he does it but he keeps doing it because he doesn't know what else to do. He's in the midst of recruiting new gang members to have a 'tribe' again even though he's just perpetuating the brutal cycle of kill or be killed. It's an especially interesting irony as the player is a teacher that deals pretty much daily with trying to keep kids out of gangs.

Then is what I think of as the middle of the road character, borderline over the top back story with bad shit happening but in the end the player nails my favorite part of shadworun being the part of trading part of your soul for what you think you wanted then realizing that you traded away what you actually wanted in life. Anyways the character is an ork street sam. He's an amerind raised by his grandmother because his mom was chip-head/prostitute. Most of his brothers and sisters stayed in seattle while he grew up in injun lands. He's a half breed (in that he's half white) which he faced discrimination for more so then being an ork. He joined the army after buying into the recruiters BS, after a few years realized he'd die of old age before accomplishing anything, goes AWOL back to Seattle, hooks up with a cousin of his who's got the right connections and bang he's a runner. The big thing that in my mind makes him gritty is how he is well aware that he's trading his soul for power with cyberware. At first he was cool with the trade but now that his nieces and nephews won't play with him anymore because he's scary, even though he's paying for their house, he wishes he could trade it all back. He can't and doesn't wine about it but it's there. He's also the one that tends to get drunk after runs so he can forget he just killed people, which always earns him style points in my book.

The true sob story that reminds me of way to many angst ridden World of Darkness games is the adept. He's a japanese elf who's father was an abusive alcholic, derived mainly from the discrimination he faces being an elf. One day his dad comes home and starts whupping him and he manifests his killing hands ability and kills his dad, his mom freaks out and attacks him to save her husband so he ends up killing her too. He then runs away and joins a street gang for awhile, he finds acceptance again only to have them all get killed in a gang war, after he personally annihilates the gang that killed his he gets caught by the cops. While Lone Star is processing him his old corporate SIN pops up and the come to collect him seeing as he's an adept and train him to be an uber elite death machine. Then his mentor/trainer sells him out to a rival corp in return for a promotion. He survives the ambush and sets his mentor/surogate father figure up for the fall and gets him killed. Oh the ambush killed his wife/love of his life who was an elite combat mage. He's listed as KIA by his corp masters so goes to the shadows as killing people with his hands is all he knows how to do.

Normally I would have trashed the backstory but the guy had typed up like 10 pages of it and this was his first try at shadowrun so I didn't have the heart to tell him to try again. Mostly he spends his time being a sociopath who can kill without remorse but likes to point out how his life has sucked more then everyone else's combined with occasionally pining over his lost love. He's the go to guy if they need a baby curb stomped but donates money to charity after I explained that while I will allow doing money for karma it's gotta be in game actions that would be considered good deeds.

On the upside he's started to grow beyond this character and has expressed interest in being a social adept. Which is good because this one got wasted in the arc run.