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Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 19 2007, 01:15 AM

I'm in the middle of writing a SR3 scenario where the PCs end up fighting off two companies of troops in a jungle setting where they get pelted with 6 platoons at a time. I decided that it's also important to make enemy helicopters zip by and strafe them with mounted RPK machine guns.

I decided not to use the vehicle combat rules because 1.) I don't have my sourcebooks with me and 2.) it's not vehicle combat but rather vehicle versus infantry. I've decided instead to simply the the helicopters to a few components: a body score, a vehicle armor score, a constant speed (the helicopters "spawn" 200 meters away from the characters), and a skill level for the RPK doorgunner.

Therefore, I'd need to know how quickly a typical helicopter with a doorgunner would approach a small group of infantry in foxholes for the purpose of perforating them if the copter is 200 meters away.

The way I see it, the PCs have three choices in ways they should respond to this turn of events: 1.) They can blow up the helicopter with a bunch of Stinger missiles the Johnson gives them, 2.) They can shoot the hull of the helicopter a lot and make it die, and 3.) They can snipe out the doorgunner.

Given the speed of the helicopter, what TN penalty should the player characters get to hit the copter or the doorgunner? I was thinking +6 just to represent "really feaking difficult".

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 19 2007, 01:37 AM

I'm not sure... but sounds like your characters are going to die.

Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 19 2007, 01:39 AM

That's quite a scenario. Unfortunately, I don't have my vehicle books at hand. I will point out that there is also a fourth option. They could aim for the tail rotor. This is how many US helicopters have been shot down from Somali to the present.

200 meters would be a very tough shot though, so the best bet would be a couple of Stingers. You might try an ambush of sorts. You need three men, at least. Two will be armed with unguided rocket launchers and the third with the Stinger. Spread the men out along the line 20 or 30 meters apart for this situation. Have one rocket launcher fire at the helo. The pilot probably won't wait to see if it is homing or not and will evade. The shooter might also get lucky and score a hit. Shortly after the first, the second fires. That certainly should get a reaction, most likely turning away. That is when the Stinger fires, having been taking aim and tracking the helo all this time. The firing should have been such that it herded the chopper down the line to the Stinger gunner, have the helo pilot a bit rattled and have set it up better for a kill shot.

If that won't fit in your plans, just have a machine gunner or two lock on and pound away. That would work best if they were using smart guns. Don't worry so much about knocking out the door gunner. If the bird starts taking a lot of fire, it is going to pull away. Maybe that tactic would force it to move far enough away from the Stinger to get off a shot.


One other thing to keep in mind. Missiles like the stinger have a minimum range, so make sure the shooter has room to fire it.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 19 2007, 01:48 AM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 19 2007, 01:49 AM

Shooting out the tail rotor only works if there is a tail rotor.

~J

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 19 2007, 01:52 AM

Posted by: cristomeyers Jan 19 2007, 02:12 AM

Not sure what the cruising speed for an attack helo would be, but i'm pretty sure that's the speed it would use for strafing entrenched infantry. This is assuming that RPK's are full auto weapons (I'm relatively new here, haven't got all the lingo down yet).

As for sniping the door gunner, you would be combining the speed of the chopper with the concealment of the gunner (the weapon is going to obstruct a sniper's shot) and any other battlefield conditions. I think +6 TN may be a little light. Maybe closer to +8.

Posted by: Link Jan 19 2007, 02:53 AM

A quick effort using the rules;

Utility choppers move at about 200m max, here they're circling so knock it down to about 120 to manouevre.

+1 per 30m where one party is stationary.

Helo has significant Maneouvre Score advantage so it's at -1 while PC's at +1.

Door gunner has 50% (maybe less?) cover which is +4 to be hit/+2 to hit.

PC's in foxhole has 75% cover which is +6 to be hit/+3 to hit.

Helo is big so -2 to be hit.

Conclusion:
Doorgunner at PC's; +11
PC's at doorgunner; +12
PC's at helo; +6

Dig in for the long haul!

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 19 2007, 02:54 AM

This is a RPK: http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/models/ka140.html

Posted by: cristomeyers Jan 19 2007, 02:57 AM

So we're looking at a weapon that's full auto. There's no reason the chopper would slow down and expose the chopper to fire in order to get a better shot when the door gunner can just spray the target area.

Not the most efficient way to perforate a small group of entrenched runners, it'd probably be more for suppressing fire while the infantry platoons close in on them.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 19 2007, 03:39 AM

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 19 2007, 03:43 AM

Reasonably, the door gunner should not suffer the +2 for having cover if he is firing a mounted weapon and the helicopter itself doesn't have cover.

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 19 2007, 06:38 AM

The thing is it really depends on the situation. You 'can' strafe at ground targets with MGs from a moving helicopter, they did it all the time in vietnam from what I've been able to tell. But they havent been able to do so terribly accurately. Most cases I've read about at least, when hitting the target really counted the helicopter just did what it does best. It sat there hovering above the ground. Thus providing a relatively stable firing platform for the gunner.

Hell even in FPS games such as Operation Flashpoint I've found it's a HELL of alot easier to hit a target when the chopper pilot is hovering. It DOES however of course make you alot more vulnerable to groundfire, and we got shot down more than once. But usually only if the other side had a stinger or something. Usually if folk were paying attention LAWs and RPGs didnt pose much of a threat so you could afford to do it.

So in situations like that I allways try to work out some sort of penalty system. If a gunner in a vehicle is firing at a target. You have the idstance modifiers. SO that still applies. Then movement modifiers. If your moving slowly you've got plenty of time to track. If your target is moving as well it's abit harder. It gets abit complicated though because theres really alot involved in that sort of fight.

So as a base rule for say every 10-20kph I make the test more difficult by 1 die or something. Then apply modifiers for the target moving. If your in a dogfight etc and their matching your speed, I just ignore speed modifiers. Since relatively speaking your not moving much position wise compared to each other. WHere as if your firing at a stationary gruond target while buzzing past at 200mph your not going to have much time at all to track and fire at the target. Computerized targeting can help to a degree but even that has limits based uppon the tech level of a certain setting.

Hell some settings the computerized tracking system is so good no matter hwat speed your gonig at you only get a flat -X to hit a stationary target and -y to hit a moving one. Or say instead of the penalty stacking every 20kph it stacks every 100kph.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 19 2007, 09:12 AM

This is just RL consideration, the SR3 vehicle combat rules of course work quite differently.

IIRC, in Mog '93, the Black Hawks averaged around 60-80mph and were flying very low. I imagine the AH-6 Little Birds were moving about as fast as they strafed. They managed to hit their targets quite well, largely because their crews were the best in the world and they were using M134s, with roughly 6 times the rate of fire of an RPK. At the same speed, a crappy crew with very slow-firing guns like the RPKs wouldn't really stand a chance of hitting someone.

Hovering or moving very slowly over hostiles will quite possibly get them killed, so it's a much better idea to move fast and to use whatever terrain there is to minimize the time spent in LoS. Staying alive is more important than killing the enemy.

At speeds in the 60-80mph range, a +4 TN to hit the helo is easily called for (though you could drop it to +3 to make it equal to what the crew of the helo are facing, if you think that won't wreck the balance). Depending on the type of helo and the way the helo approaches, the crew probably has partial cover as well. Handily, the Manual Gunnery rules in SR3 actually gives the helo gunners about equivalent modifiers: +2 for flying over a combat zone with (potential) incoming fire and +3 TN for the speed (the closest bracket being 90-119 meters per CT).

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 19 2007, 10:07 AM

WEll yeah, it does really depend on the ROF as well. Which I think is partially why they started moving away from MGs and towards Miniguns for doorgunners. More lead in the same period of time arguably means a higher chance of hitting some one.

Again it I think really depends on if you want a 'realistic portrayal' or sort of 'action scene' where it's more movie like. I certainly do know doorgunning from a moving chopper using an M60 in OFP was bloody hard to hit things like infantry especially when you were flying high up. OFP was also eventually improved and adapted into an actual military combat simulator so I guess it's 'relatively' realistic? I dunno. It at least helped me get a better idea of how to portray some things in RPG games I suppose. Like how at least in OFP it was totally possible for me to take down that one attack chopper using the main gun of a T-80. I missed it about 10 times but I got it eventually Mind you that one was moving at a decent clip too which made it really ahrd to hit with single shot weapons. When you were in an AA vehicle on the other hand it was relatively easy. Either because of the use of missiles. Or jsut a really high rate of fire.

I wouldnt of course call it really reallistic since if you some how managed to kill the choper pilot it would just.. slowly fall to the ground and actually still be in one piece when it hit the ground ready for you to hop in and fly it about yourself.

Also being a 'futurisitc' setting at least with automated weapons and to a degree operated ones you do have various things such as smartlinks which give you nifty things like the ability to 'lock' onto a target or at least give you a leading reticule. I think the rules AUstere pulled up though probably fit the bill rather nicely depending on the weapon involved. Guided missiles for example I dont think would really have an issue with hitting a chopper going 60-80mph. But then how many runners actually get their hands on one of those things? Most of the time it's just a LAW or some other unguided rocket.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 19 2007, 10:17 AM

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 19 2007, 10:21 AM

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 19 2007, 10:22 AM

He should at least be using an LMG, and I think a Vindicator minigun is totally acceptable.

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 19 2007, 10:28 AM

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 19 2007, 11:04 AM

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 19 2007, 11:10 AM

Well I ment ammunition in general. And if you think it's not a big deal. How about you give me a penny for every round fired out of a gattling gun in Iraq till the US pulls out then tell me it's not a decent chunk of change

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 19 2007, 11:26 AM

That'll be something like $150k to $250k. Not too bad, especially in CAD.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 19 2007, 11:51 AM

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 19 2007, 01:03 PM

Oh btw, you will probably have to use vehicle rules for this. Because every time you hit the chopper with a sam or even substantial gunfire they'll have to make a crash test. Not to mention that vehicle rules apply to gunnery.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 19 2007, 01:23 PM

That's not actually true. Crash tests are required when the vehicle:

Takes any damage while ramming.
Takes Serious damage in a single attack.
Is Destroyed (by condition monitor).
Decelerates more than 4x its Acceleration at once.

~J

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jan 19 2007, 03:01 PM

Posted by: ErrosCallidus Jan 19 2007, 03:39 PM

If you're using door gunners, instead of making strafing passes have the choppers make arcs around the beaten zone. When an aircraft is turning there is a point at which the relative motion of that area of ground to the aircraft is zero... any pilot worth anything can pick this point at will and make a turn on it. That should take care of movement modifiers when firing. It WILL call for some spot checks to ensure the pilot picks the right point and can identify where the runners are holed up. AC-37s and AC-130 used/use this same technique in Vietnam/Afghanistan/Iraq. There's even some decent videos on the net that if you're paying attention you can see the viewpoint slowly rotate around the beaten area.

Also, a quick note on downing a chopper. you don't necessarily need a tracking missle to take them out. the Mujahadeen in Afg. got QUITE good at ambushing and downing Russian air assault choppers with massed RPG/recoiless rifle/Hvy MG fire. There's also some pretty nifty tricks you can pull with some restricting terrain and horizontally firing gun platforms dug into hillsides/caves

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 19 2007, 03:45 PM

Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 19 2007, 06:35 PM

Again keep in mind that the pilot of the helicopter isn't likely to stick around long enough to get shot down. If it is taking a lot of hits from from ground fire, they are going to back off. At the very least they will start flying more erraticly to protect themselves which would also throw off the aim of the gunner.

Something the piolt might try is making full speed runs flying over and behind their own troops allowing the door gunner to fire over them and target the enemy positions. Less accurate to be sure, but it would make the help harder to shoot down. Give the ground troops from smoke grenade for their launchers and they could mark target areas for the gunner to shoot up. Using a Vindicator or other minigun would really tear up an area target.

Another option would be to advance slowly at the dug in position and get them to fire their heavy weapons. I don't recall and can't see it in the posts available while writing this, if the attackers have mortars. If they do, use the mortars to knock out the heavy weapons. Since I do recall there being lots of mages, you could always have them mob the machine guns with a swarm of spirits, probably far more than the defenders could stop before the heavy weapons and crew were dead. As many mages as there seemed to be from post, a swarm of dozens of spirits could probably carry the battle. Several waves of them almost certainly would.

Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 19 2007, 09:54 PM

Just found a video clip that fits in with this topic. It shows a gunner in the back of a helicopter firing on a ground target. You have to look sharp, but you can see his pattern from the dirt kicked up on the ground. It looks like he is shooting at gully or ravine, going up and down the length of it.

http://www.goregasm.com/index.php?view=1&token=80baa80a15

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 19 2007, 11:12 PM

Wow, this is one kickass discussion. I've already started revising my notes to reflect the info that has been revealed to me.

Posted by: ErrosCallidus Jan 19 2007, 11:18 PM

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 19 2007, 11:27 PM

Ah. Yeah, that would certainly make sense.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 19 2007, 11:43 PM

...One RL chopper to take note of is the AH-1 Cobra (or "Snake") series. Made famous during the Vietnam conflict, this was the first truly dedicated rotorcraft gunship. It's usual attack profile was to dive in on it's target (at over 180 knots) before unleashing it's formidable array of armament which included a chin mounted 20mm minigun, a 40mm high velocity Grenade launcher (Affectionately referred to as the "chunker" - I like that name), and 2.75 rockets employing varying types of warheads (based on the mission). It's slim (barely a metre) wide profile made it a difficult target to hit when viewed straight on. The Cobra also made use of electronically balanced stabilisers which were more efficient at dampening turbulence and wind gusts.

The only drawback was the lack of fuselage armour which made it vulnerable to ground fire on the pullout from a rocket run.

One particularly nasty type of ordinance frequently used was the "Nail" rocket. It employed 2200 specially prepared steel nails that had stabilising fins stamped on one end. It would be launched into open positions from treetop level. Accelerating to supersonic speeds, it would explode a few hundred feet above the terrain, showering a football pitch size area with the deadly projectiles.

One anecdote I heard from a pilot years ago was that the sound of the main rotor itself could to spook the VC into thinking the Cobra was already firing its minigun. This was caused by the main rotor blade tips approaching Mach-1.

Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 19 2007, 11:49 PM

I've been thinking this whole time that an outfit as strong as the one described here would have an attack helicopter rather then a utility one with a door gunner. It could do like the Apaches do today: hang back out of most ground fire range and pound a target with it's 30mm gun and rockets. Those would play havok with a bunch of fixed positions.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 20 2007, 12:07 AM

An actual attack helo would make the whole encounter rather one-sided. It could pick the opposition off one foxhole at a time from several kilometers away with guided rockets.

Posted by: Butterblume Jan 20 2007, 12:12 AM

Oh, the door gunner chopper is quite efficient. Especially when the attack helicopters are clearing the way by taking out the serious threats like sam launchers and anti aircraft guns.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 20 2007, 12:20 AM

Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 20 2007, 01:09 AM

Posted by: warrior_allanon Jan 20 2007, 02:57 AM

your all right, but both the attack helo and the modified utility helo have one glaring weakness, their engines, I cant remember if its the Apache or the Cobra, but one of them only has a single engine, and gee, a bullet slug makes wonderful FOD, so if your team is on the ball and has a hell of an amount of luck, (I would make the target number for the engine intake a target number of 12-16 and a broadside hit on the engine housing a 10) then they could possibly bring down the choppers with small arms. (I remember from my military history classes that this was a big problem in Korea and early Vietnam.) and as a player character i managed the same thing in an urban fight from a rooftop putting a 3 round burst of EXEX from my AS-7 into the wasp we had strafing us.

My GM's hated me

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 20 2007, 03:22 AM

Screw the helicopter, just send in a retrofitted Spooky or something.

~J

Posted by: Fix-it Jan 20 2007, 04:46 AM

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 20 2007, 05:55 AM

Posted by: Red Jan 20 2007, 07:14 PM

There are particularly good reasons why helicopters should never hover in place in Shadowrun, even if the enemy lacks missiles, rockets, or even any firearm with significant range. I was in an SR4 game where we were being pursued by a Northrup Wasp. We were in an armored van, but the wasp's LMG could punch through with 2-3 hits on the attack test. We didn't have anything remotely capable of touching it as all we had were pistols, and melee. (Ganger campaign) We had a hostage inside the van, but the pilot didn't seem to particularly care.

Eventually we got to a point where the point where the pilot was especially complacent, and he was tailing us in a predictable pattern. Our resident mage overcast on summoning a F6 air spirit, and he instructed it to fly up to the copter in astral, and materialize inside the cockpit. He didn't instruct it to kill the pilot, but just use the Fear power on him instead.

Our GM permitted it because the rules on materializing spirits and subsequent changes in inertia/speed/momentum are completely abstract. But he thought that because the Wasp was flying in a stable, straight line that the spirit could pull it off.

As an aside, I find the mental image of an Earth spirit engulfing the pilot inside a Blackhawk very, very funny.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jan 20 2007, 07:19 PM

Posted by: Fix-it Jan 21 2007, 03:18 AM

the last few posts demonstrate the advantages of combat drones, which are significantly cheaper than a helicopter, and off the advantage of being harder to hit, more manueverable, and packing more firepower for thier size.

Posted by: ErrosCallidus Jan 21 2007, 09:56 AM

That's correct, but the bonus of a helo is that it can carry troopers to take and HOLD territory. If you sic a bunch of drones on a few runnners after a while sure you're not taking any more return fire, but you're never QUITE sure you got 'em all till you go up there and give it the Mark I Eyeball scan (Or maybe the Mark III or IV depending on how cybered your scout is ). Especially if there's a mage in the group. It's the old, "kill them with airpower" debate that goes round and round in RL all time. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't so you'll always have to send some guys with weapons and kevlar to make sure.

Posted by: Nikoli Jan 21 2007, 10:58 AM

There's another option if the runner team has someone that can summon either the right spirit or elemental.
Movement power on the Main rotor, slow it down and stall the chopper.
Or, gusts of wind and wash out the roter.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 21 2007, 03:17 PM

No, actually, that isn't an option, no more than using Movement on someone's heart and killing them that way. You can't, unless I am very much mistaken, target part of the vehicle with that kind of magical effect.

~J

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jan 21 2007, 03:19 PM

You can use movement to attempt to nullify the acceleration of a vehicle, making it fly in a predictable path.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jan 21 2007, 04:16 PM

Posted by: ErrosCallidus Jan 21 2007, 10:41 PM

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 22 2007, 12:11 AM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 22 2007, 12:15 AM

Please stop talking.

~J

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 22 2007, 02:02 AM

Posted by: warrior_allanon Jan 22 2007, 02:07 AM

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 22 2007, 10:36 AM

Having a water elemental use engulf on the pilot of a sealed chopper would be hilarious. gurgle gurgle.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 22 2007, 10:42 AM

Well, that's the thing with helicopters. All helicopters appearing in previous games I've seen were usually easily taken out by magic. (Actually, usually Control Thoughts rather than elementals, but magic anyway.)

Magic in SR3 is really, really powerful, and this scenario I'm busy banging out is basically designed for a team that has a multiple mages and everyone is running around with like 15 karma pool.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 22 2007, 11:02 AM

The helo of course will have a few elementals or a spirit guarding (or Guarding) it, if the group attacking them has any magical support. It will almost certainly have a Force 6 Ward on it. There is no need for people from outside the helo to be able to see the pilot, so casting spells directly at him/her wouldn't work. Control Thoughts on one of the doorgunners would still work, of course, unless the doors are covered somehow so that you only see the guns.

Posted by: ErrosCallidus Jan 22 2007, 01:45 PM

That's where the microburst/settling with power trick would be best, since you're not actually targeting the chopper with the spell, but the air around it. So any wards on the chopper itself wouldn't really be a factor.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 22 2007, 03:24 PM

No, but the Sky Spirit using Guard would be.

~J

Posted by: ErrosCallidus Jan 22 2007, 04:23 PM

Ah well.. there is that....

Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 22 2007, 04:51 PM

Posted by: warrior_allanon Jan 22 2007, 06:51 PM

Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 22 2007, 07:57 PM

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 22 2007, 09:29 PM

Put one at the right angle and watch it shear off it's wing or rotors, too. That'd be fun.

Posted by: mfb Jan 23 2007, 04:20 AM

re: the original topic, you might check out the http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/1-140/CH7.HTM#10. the section i linked to has some good information, though i didn't find any information on proper strafing speed when i glanced through it.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 24 2007, 03:04 AM

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jan 24 2007, 03:43 PM

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jan 24 2007, 05:28 PM

Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 24 2007, 05:52 PM

I had forgetten about the Physical Wall spells until that other post, even though that was a common way my teams would rid themselves of aerial and land pursuit. It might not destroy the vehicle, but it would force a crash check. However, with Helos a strong enough Wall would probably break at least one blade before being dispelled.

It works with ground vehicles too. There is the obvious method of setting the wall for the pursuer to crash in to, whether flat or at an angle. My prefferred option was to have it angled up from the ground like a ramp. The incline would be slight so that at the end of the wall (figure 10 meters) the vehicle would be about 2 meters up. That's enough for most vehicles to nose dive into the ground and take them out of the chase.