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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Is banishing drain too high?
Posted by: emo samurai Jan 20 2007, 06:32 AM
I'm thinking it should be limited to the amount of hits the enemy spirit scores. I mean, all it does is get rid of one enemy combatant; a manabolt could do just as well with a higher chance of succeeding with a single blast with much lower, non-variable drain.
Is this one of the rules that wasn't really playtested at all?
Posted by: Kesslan Jan 20 2007, 06:34 AM
Dunno. What is the real difference between trying to manabolt a force 20 spirit into oblivion vs trying to banish it?
Posted by: Konsaki Jan 20 2007, 06:36 AM
Stunbolt > Banishing any day of the week...
I think it should be just a base thing like drain = the force of the spirit
You would still have the same test though to reduce tasks owed though.
Banishing a spirit should be easier than calling one...
Posted by: Konsaki Jan 20 2007, 06:37 AM
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| Dunno. What is the real difference between trying to manabolt a force 20 spirit into oblivion vs trying to banish it? |
Dude, if you can summon a force 20 spirit and survive, I dont want to be on the same planet as you...
Posted by: Kesslan Jan 20 2007, 06:40 AM
| QUOTE (Konsaki) |
| Banishing a spirit should be easier than calling one... |
I'm not so sure I agree. In a case where the spirit doesnt want to be there? Sure.
But if the sprit is not only bound, but is also very much enjoying its tasks. Would it not then fight extra hard to stay there?
I'm sure there must be some reason behind banishing being harder than blasting a spirit. Look at spirts with the hidden life ability. You can blast them all you want and they'll just be back tomorrow kinda thing.
Posted by: Thanee Jan 20 2007, 09:45 AM
| QUOTE (Konsaki) |
| Banishing a spirit should be easier than calling one... |
Maybe not easier to accomplish, but the Drain should be less for sure!
In my house rules, I have done this, and halved the Drain for Banishing.
It still surely isn't worth it... you must learn an extra skill, whereas Stun Bolt is just another spell, and has other applications. But at least it's usable, if you do.
Banishing simply gives no incentive to actually learn it.
Bye
Thanee
Posted by: NightmareX Jan 20 2007, 10:51 AM
| QUOTE (Konsaki) |
| Dude, if you can summon a force 20 spirit and survive, I dont want to be on the same planet as you... |
Example (using the direct conversion version of the character):
Nightmare (Chaos Mage, grade 5 Initiate) summoning a Force 20 Air spirit
Magic 10 + Summoning 5 + Power Focus 4 + Totem (Raven) modifier 2 + Edge 6 = 27 dice (average 9 hits)
Air spirit 20 = 20 dice (average 6 hits)
Drain value 12P
Willpower 9 (6 + Force 3 quickened spell) + Logic 6 = 15 dice (average 5 hits)
Result: 3 services from a Force 20 Air spirit, 7 boxes for physical drain
Conclusion: Force 20 spirits are no longer very difficult to summon by experienced generalist magicians. The only thing preventing the proliferation of uber-spirits in general is the fear of statistically anomalous amounts of physical drain (don't tell my players this
)As for banishing being easier than summoning, I disagree. The line from the Case of Charles Dexter Ward sums up my position best - "Do not call up what you cannot put down".
Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 20 2007, 11:01 AM
Banishing can be useful in that once you've banished away all of a spirit's services you can take control of it. This allows a magician to have any spirit without regard to tradition limitations.
Posted by: Serbitar Jan 20 2007, 12:15 PM
Why not jsut give banishing 0 drain? Its not like the spirit wont attack yoou while you are banishing it, so you pay with time already. Astral combat does not have drain either . . .
Posted by: Thanee Jan 20 2007, 12:48 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Banishing can be useful in that once you've banished away all of a spirit's services you can take control of it. This allows a magician to have any spirit without regard to tradition limitations. |
Yeah, great.
How often does this come into play, really, and is that worth spending loads of Karma on another skill?
Doing away with Banishing Drain completely is also an option, that is worth considering. I didn't want to go that far, but it might be necessary, to make Banishing even remotely appealing.
Bye
Thanee
Posted by: Claw Jan 20 2007, 01:11 PM
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| Why not jsut give banishing 0 drain? Its not like the spirit wont attack yoou while you are banishing it, so you pay with time already. Astral combat does not have drain either . . . |
Why then don't give conjuring 0 drain too?
Posted by: Serbitar Jan 20 2007, 01:35 PM
Because conjuring doesnt have a competitive alternative like stun-bolting, which it has to be balanced against. Furthermore you are not automatically attacked while summoning. Furthermore summoning is, even with drain, pretty powerful, banishing is not.
I think the reasons are so obvious I dont really have to state them.
Posted by: Thanee Jan 20 2007, 01:38 PM
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| I think the reasons are so obvious I dont really have to state them. |
Bye
Thanee
Posted by: Claw Jan 20 2007, 02:42 PM
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| I think the reasons are so obvious I dont really have to state them. |
Yes, they are. I just want to say, if you've an explanation for
| QUOTE |
| Banishing is the process of severing the tie between spirit and summoner—in a way, it is the opposite of summoning/binding. |
Seems not. But if you reduce the drain of banishing, you're in need of an explanation, why doing nearly the same hasn't nearly the same drain.
Posted by: Serbitar Jan 20 2007, 02:49 PM
Game Balancing
or
Destroying is easier than building
Just choose. If you want banishing to be useless, well thats your choice.
Another option would be: Spirits get spell resistance dice equal to their force, because they are spirits and know/used to magic stuff.
Posted by: Thanee Jan 20 2007, 03:08 PM
You quoted the reason yourself...
| QUOTE |
| Banishing is the process of severing the tie between spirit and summoner—in a way, it is the opposite of summoning/binding. |
In a way. It's not an exact opposite, just in the way, that it reduces services instead of adding to them.
Of course, no Drain would be kinda the opposite of Drain, or not?
Bye
Thanee
Posted by: ornot Jan 20 2007, 03:20 PM
Hmm... I like that last option Serbitar. Sourcery is already a touch on the uber side. Allowing it to supercede banishing is just another example.
If magic resistance doesn't sit well, maybe it would be possible to give spirits some low level of counter-spelling, maybe half the spirits force (round up). It could be said this makes summoned spirits a bit uber, but really all it does is make banishing more important.
I considered that spirits with counterspelling could be a problem, but were a summoner to request a spirit protect him and his group with counterspelling, it would use up a service.
Anyone see any gaping holes in this idea?
Posted by: Claw Jan 20 2007, 03:22 PM
| QUOTE |
| Game Balancing |
That's not a good reason. With this explanation you can do everything, but that's neither elegant nor logical.
| QUOTE |
| Destroying is easier than building |
No, it's nearly the same.
| QUOTE |
| Another option would be: Spirits get spell resistance dice equal to their force, because they are spirits and know/used to magic stuff. |
Giving all Spirits the power "Magical Guard" is definetly the better way.
Posted by: Serbitar Jan 20 2007, 03:31 PM
Game balance is everything.
And giving every Spirit the power would be kind of OK, but I dont like it because it would make them even more useful (and take away diversity of spirit types).
So I would go for just "force" extra spell defense dice.
Posted by: ornot Jan 20 2007, 03:37 PM
I'd go for force/2, just to stop them being nigh unstoppable without banishing
Posted by: Konsaki Jan 20 2007, 04:30 PM
| QUOTE (Claw) | ||
No, it's nearly the same. |
It takes you months to build a house by yourself. It can take me a few days, tops, to take out the few key points in the house that are load carrying and bring down the house.
Simpler example
One child uses some blocks to build a big fort looking thing, taking around 10 minutes to make. Another child comes up and gives the block fort a quick kick, taking around 3 seconds. The block fort falls to the ground, destroyed.
Building is almost always harder than destroying.
Posted by: Demerzel Jan 20 2007, 04:37 PM
| QUOTE (Konsaki) |
| Simpler example One child uses some blocks to build a big fort looking thing, taking around 10 minutes to make. Another child comes up and gives the block fort a quick kick, taking around 3 seconds. The block fort falls to the ground, destroyed. |
That kick may have carried with it more energy than was expended in the building process. Also that bully might pull a groin muscle, ouch.
Posted by: Brahm Jan 20 2007, 05:50 PM
@NightmareX
It's been covered serveral times before. You've made to key assumptions that turn the tables drastically on how feasible Summoning a spirit like that is.
1) Average rolls, which you rounded down to boot.
2) Conjurer using Edge and the spirit not.
Average is 6.67 hits, and there are better than even odds that the Spirit will roll 7 hits. One in 5 times it'll be 18 boxes of Stun, one in ten it'll be 20 boxes.
If they use Edge? Even just the average opposing roll by the spirit means that if your hypothetical conjurer has a Body of 15 they'll be spending Edge to have less than 1% chance of not going from fit as a fiddle to hitting the floor. Good night conjurer, been nice to know ya.
Yes you can pull it off. But the risks are pretty damn substantial, and the mage is still dealing with P damage that can't be gotten rid of with Heal. Without Binding, which is truely insane, the conjurer is going to retain that damage longer than the spirit is around.
Posted by: Serbitar Jan 20 2007, 06:08 PM
Well, who cares about Force 20 Spirits. Force 12 Spirits are already the destroyers of worlds.
Posted by: Claw Jan 20 2007, 07:06 PM
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| Game balance is everything. |
Surprise, Surprise, and not my opinion
| QUOTE (Konsaki) |
| It takes you months to build a house by yourself. It can take me a few days, tops, to take out the few key points in the house that are load carrying and bring down the house. Simpler example One child uses some blocks to build a big fort looking thing, taking around 10 minutes to make. Another child comes up and gives the block fort a quick kick, taking around 3 seconds. The block fort falls to the ground, destroyed. |
Doesn't fit, while after you've wrecked down your building in this manner, it takes month and new materials to build it again. So your destroying is the manabolt, while banishing is to break down the building in some bigger parts (like a prefabricated house), so you can rebuild it easily. So cause you have to be careful not to destroy something, it's even harder than just blow it up.
Posted by: Konsaki Jan 20 2007, 07:20 PM
Question for you though, have you ever actually seen a mage in any game banish and then resummon a spirit on the spot?
I have never seen it done, ever. It's just a stupid mechanic that would be the equivilant of breaking down a house into its most base items, like stacks of wood and nails, then rebuilding it just like it was before. All just to change the name on the door. You suffer more drain that way than just blowing up the house and building from square one.
Note that the bansishing/summoning combo is only efficient when performing on rank 4 or below spirits. Realisticly though, most mages (Read: Shadowrunner/initiated wagemage) will have a rank 5-7 spirit or even higher if they are using edge. At this point, it becomes more efficient to just blast the spirit with a stun bolt than banish it.
Then you have to note that if a spirit is bound, the Magic stat of the owning mage is added into the spirit's resist. So a force 4 spirit could have a 10 dicepool to resist banishing. Thats on average 6 stun drain, if not more with actuall rolls.
IMHO, Banishing as a skill right now is not worth buying nor using.
Posted by: ornot Jan 20 2007, 07:25 PM
I can easily see your point, Konsaki.
Making spirits more resistant to sourcery through counterspelling is my personal favourite suggestion from this thread, making banishing more useful, but even so, the drain could well be debilitating, nonetheless.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 20 2007, 11:28 PM
| QUOTE (Demerzel @ Jan 20 2007, 11:37 AM) | ||
That kick may have carried with it more energy than was expended in the building process. Also that bully might pull a groin muscle, ouch. |
The second law of thermodynamics disagrees. Entropy is always increasing and it takes far more energy to create a localized reversal of entropy than it does to push entropy in the proper direction.
Edit:
| QUOTE (Thanee) |
| Of course, no Drain would be kinda the opposite of Drain, or not? |
The opposite of drain is negative drain.
Posted by: Brahm Jan 20 2007, 11:37 PM
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| Well, who cares about Force 20 Spirits. Force 12 Spirits are already the destroyers of worlds. |
They also tend towards being destroyers of the fools that attempt to conjure them.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 21 2007, 01:02 AM
Spirits are already walking the borderline of being too powerful. Giving them blanket magic resistance would push them over the edge.
I think it is a better idea to adjust the Banishing rules themselves in some manner, rather than adjust other things (which have wider ranging effects) in order to remedy them.
Posted by: Serbitar Jan 21 2007, 01:43 AM
Thats why I prefer the 0 drain for banishing rule. You spend karma, you should get something for the buck.
Posted by: Konsaki Jan 21 2007, 02:47 AM
I have to disagree with you there, Serbitar. It's my opinion that the drain should be toned down, not snuffed out.
By dropping it to 0 drain, no matter what, you open the possiblities of no one using spirits anymore due to the cost in drain to summon them and the fact that almost any other mage with Banish has an 'I win' tactic against them for no cost.
This also greatly reduces the 'threat' of super high rank spirits, the ones in the 10+ range. This is mainly due to the fact that you can now throw an army of mages against the super spirit and effortlessly keep re-banishing it until all it's tasks are gone. As of now, no mage would try to banish any spirit above rank 4 or risk more damage than an overcasted stunbolt is worth.
With drain equal to the spirit's hits, you would lessen the impact of the random drain, but it would still be a risk for mages to try to banish a raging spirit. Think about it, you have to make the resist roll already anyways, so it's no different roll wise than before, but makes things a good bit easier without being totally effortless.
| CODE |
| Mage A (5 magic) takes his bound R4 spirit (3 tasks) and attacks Mage B. Mage B also has 5 magic and uses his 3 banishing skill to try and banish Mage A's spirit. Using his 8 dicepool Mage B rolls 4 hits, while the spirit rolls his 8 dicepool (Rank + Mage A's Magic due to being bound) and gets 3 hits. The spirit is down to 2 tasks owed. |
Note that not all spirits you come across will be bound, especially the R5+ ones, so they wont get their summoner's magic rating in their dicepool.
| CODE |
| Mage A, B and spirit are the same, but the spirit is not bound. Mage B still rolls 4 hits, but the spirit, with its 4 dicepool, only rolls 1 hit. The spirit is successfully banished due to all its tasks being taken away. On the next turn, Mage A summons a R7 spirit with 3 tasks and tells it to attack Mage B. Mage B tries to banish this spirit like the last one and gets 3 hits. The spirit also gets 3 hits out of its 7 dicepool and no tasks are removed. Mage B still has to soak 3 physical drain for trying to banish a spirit above his magic rating instead of the 6 physical he would take with RAW. |
Even though banishing would still be risky, it's alot more manageable this way without being risk free.
Posted by: Claw Jan 21 2007, 03:11 AM
How does this change with foci?
Posted by: Konsaki Jan 21 2007, 03:14 AM
Um... if you have a banishing foci you add its force to your banishing pool... Same as RAW.
Posted by: emo samurai Jan 21 2007, 03:39 AM
I'd say that banishing temporarily reduces magic if the enemy spirit gets net hits, which recharge at 1 point per hour. I'd also say that banishing give no drain. Therefore, there's high risk but lots of utility.
Posted by: Konsaki Jan 21 2007, 03:40 AM
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| I'd say that banishing temporarily reduces magic if the enemy spirit gets net hits, which recharge at 1 point per hour. I'd also say that banishing give no drain. Therefore, there's high risk but lots of utility. |
Ouch... thats kinda evil, Emo...
Nice thinking. Wouldn't have thought of that myself.
Posted by: emo samurai Jan 21 2007, 04:27 AM
I thought losing at banishing in 3rd edition made you lose magic.
It's high risk, but potentially infinite utility.
It's also another reason to get bound spirits: enemy magic loss.
Posted by: Serbitar Jan 21 2007, 11:37 AM
@Konsaki: Try to compare banishing against Stunbolt. With a force 9 Stunbolt, you will most likely get rid of spirits up to force 6-8 or so, with a drain of: 3.
Banishing has to be considerably better (Because you spent Karma for it).
Posted by: emo samurai Jan 22 2007, 08:39 AM
What do you think of my rule, Serbitar? Does the math check out?
Posted by: Serbitar Jan 22 2007, 09:30 AM
The magic idea is not ad, would be like fighting a ward then. The question s whether this is anti streamlining, by adding mechanics where they dont belong to.
Posted by: emo samurai Jan 22 2007, 09:44 AM
Is it balanced? That's where I'm interested. Sometimes you just have to add more mechanics to make things add up.
Posted by: NightmareX Jan 22 2007, 10:47 AM
| QUOTE (Brahm) |
| It's been covered serveral times before. You've made to key assumptions that turn the tables drastically on how feasible Summoning a spirit like that is. |
Yup - your right on all accounts, just thought I'd bring it up to counter the point stated. However, I don't see it as a common thing that spirits use Edge to resist Summoning - Binding yeah, but Summoning, why bother? [shrug]
Anywho, spirits are not on the border of being too powerful - they are too powerful. And there isn't an easy way around that. Reducing Banishing drain to (spirit's hits) instead of (spirit's hits x2) would help, but it doesn't solve the Stunbolt issue. Better I think to simply make manifested/astral spirits immune to stun damage - makes them a bit beefier, but who attacks spirit's with stun attacks (other than Stunbolt mages) anyway?
Posted by: Wakshaani Jan 22 2007, 01:04 PM
A notation, here ... for the magically active without access to Stunbolts, Banishing is dang handy.
Such as an Adept.
"Can't go all Buhddist Palm on that toxic fire spirit, soooo..." *pulls out prayer beads* "Time for Plan B."
Posted by: cetiah Jan 22 2007, 01:05 PM
| QUOTE (NightmareX) |
| Anywho, spirits are not on the border of being too powerful - they are too powerful. And there isn't an easy way around that. Reducing Banishing drain to (spirit's hits) instead of (spirit's hits x2) would help, but it doesn't solve the Stunbolt issue. Better I think to simply make manifested/astral spirits immune to stun damage - makes them a bit beefier, but who attacks spirit's with stun attacks (other than Stunbolt mages) anyway? |
If you need to, it's perfectly reasonable to assume spirits always take damage from magic.
Again, though, not very streamlined.
Posted by: Thanee Jan 22 2007, 02:26 PM
| QUOTE (Wakshaani) |
| A notation, here ... for the magically active without access to Stunbolts, Banishing is dang handy. Such as an Adept. |
Adepts can use Banishing? I kinda doubt that.
Bye
Thanee
Posted by: Ravor Jan 22 2007, 02:41 PM
What about Banishing Drain being equal to the Spirit's Net Hits or perhaps Net Hits x2 with the RAW min of 2 DV?
That way if the Mage is sucessful at Banishing then she doesn't take much Drain, but if the Spirit wins than the Mage is the one who soaks up the Magical Feedback? Because as it has been stated, I'm fairly sure that a Spirit who doesn't want to be Banished will make sure to target the offending Mage first as being the greatest threat...
But I agree that something needs to be done because I don't think I've ever taken Banishing as a Skill after I realized that a well placed Manabolt or Stunbolt does the same job better.
Posted by: Thanee Jan 22 2007, 03:22 PM
Net Hits (I would go with x2, so it's closer to how summoning works mechanically... because of streamlining mostly, and x1 is probably too low) could work well. That will often be no Drain or not much Drain, but there is still a risk involved, if one roll goes high and the other low. I definitely like that better than no Drain at all.
Bye
Thanee
Posted by: James McMurray Jan 22 2007, 03:27 PM
| QUOTE (NightmareX) |
| However, I don't see it as a common thing that spirits use Edge to resist Summoning - Binding yeah, but Summoning, why bother? |
Would the mage spend edge to resist being kidnapped from his home and dragged away to where he is forced to work against his will in an environment that's likely to wind up with him feeling some serious pain eventually?
I don't think every spirit should use edge to resist drain, but it should definitely happen.
Posted by: Cheops Jan 22 2007, 05:10 PM
| QUOTE (Wakshaani) |
| A notation, here ... for the magically active without access to Stunbolts, Banishing is dang handy. Such as an Adept. "Can't go all Buhddist Palm on that toxic fire spirit, soooo..." *pulls out prayer beads* "Time for Plan B." |
Nice...
Posted by: Xenith Jan 22 2007, 05:33 PM
I'm liking the magic loss option, personally. Maybe have the magic regen at a rate of about 1 per hour. I wouldn't have the magician suffer permanent loss though, if magic reaches 0. I'd just say they fall unconscious. Potentially more perilous, but not too bad.
Posted by: emo samurai Jan 22 2007, 06:39 PM
I think I put the magic regen in. The good thing about this is that it could potentially create a huge tactical loss for the magician.
Posted by: Serbitar Jan 22 2007, 06:55 PM
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| Is it balanced? That's where I'm interested. Sometimes you just have to add more mechanics to make things add up. |
Hard to say. -1 magic equals almost 3 boxes of drain for a caster, without the fear of going down. I would say -1 magic equals 2 boxes of stun drain.
Posted by: 6thDragon Jan 22 2007, 07:37 PM
| QUOTE (Konsaki) |
| Um... if you have a banishing foci you add its force to your banishing pool... Same as RAW. |
For banishing foci you also have to declare a spirit type for it to be effective against when you purchase/bond with it. Personally I wonder if anyone in their right mind would do this. That has got to be the most worthless foci out there unless they change it to a type of foci that is good against all spirits. I mean how often are you going to see the same spirit type, unless you GM has a penchant for using one kind?
Posted by: Serbitar Jan 22 2007, 09:58 PM
focus = singular
foci = plural
Posted by: cetiah Jan 22 2007, 10:35 PM
| QUOTE (James McMurray) | ||
Would the mage spend edge to resist being kidnapped from his home and dragged away to where he is forced to work against his will in an environment that's likely to wind up with him feeling some serious pain eventually? I don't think every spirit should use edge to resist drain, but it should definitely happen. |
Really? We should poll this. I'm curious.
I personally see this as a way of cheating characters out of their innate abilities. I probably wouldn't do this for NPCs. And I was under the impression that most Shadowrun folks seem to regard the "services" as rather mundane everyday affairs.
Personally, I'm thinking of writing up rules for my home campaign so that spirit summoning isn't a mundane occurance, but rather you need a spirit as a contact, and then you need to negotiate for your services. (In fact, this "services rule" might be a good guidelines to use for other contacts, too... definitely worth some thought). Anyway, I'm ranting...
Posted by: James McMurray Jan 22 2007, 11:55 PM
Yeah, it wouldn't happen all the time. I see the drain as being part of the payment, as the summoner gives some of himself to the spirit. I'd use it for summoners with a habit of summoning frivilously, constantly involving spirits in combat, and other "crimes against spiritanity." And even with those guys it wouldn't happen all the time.
Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 23 2007, 01:47 AM
| QUOTE (Konsaki) |
| Question for you though, have you ever actually seen a mage in any game banish and then resummon a spirit on the spot? |
Yes. Infrequently to be certain, but it happens. It's a good way (well, the only way) to get access to bound spirits that your tradition doesn't normally do. So a Hermetic Mage can use it to summon, and then bind a Loa of Damballah, allowing that Mage access to a spirit with Possession and Divination - two things his tradition doesn't normally do.
The drain is very high - at least as much as summoning the spirit an extra time and way more dangerous. But since you otherwise cannot gain control of 15 different kinds of basic spirits, it's always worth considering.
I will say that many magicians don't gotta catch 'em all, and probably should just give the entire sphere of banishment a pass. Attacks of Will are drain free, but so dangerous that I can't suggest making a habit out of that either.
-Frank
Posted by: NightmareX Jan 23 2007, 12:21 PM
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Would the mage spend edge to resist being kidnapped from his home and dragged away to where he is forced to work against his will in an environment that's likely to wind up with him feeling some serious pain eventually? I don't think every spirit should use edge to resist drain, but it should definitely happen. |
I only have spirits use Edge to resist summoning in three very specific cases: 1) the magician is a known spirit abuser (depending on how bad the magician is, they can and do use it all the time), 2) the magician is summoning a particular spirit whose personality dictates that they hate summoning, and most importantly 3) the player is pissing me off
In all fairness, I must say in the example I gave #3 would likely come into play
Posted by: James McMurray Jan 23 2007, 03:53 PM
Those are mostly the only reasons I can think of to do it also. One other is that it's possible the mage may be in an area that is inimicable to spirits somehow, such as a mana warp or extremely toxic locale. I'd also add "mage has spirit bane (or whatever it's called)" to the list, but that's really just a more specialized version of #1.
Posted by: Thanee Jan 23 2007, 04:03 PM
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jan 23 2007, 02:47 AM) |
| But since you otherwise cannot gain control of 15 different kinds of basic spirits, it's always worth considering. |
That seems to be a rather artificial benefit, though.
Besides, where does it say, that this actually works?
The rules for Summoning state, that only the five types of spirits of the tradition can be summoned by a magician. Banishing states, that the spirit can be summoned before it departs (by any magician in the vincinity, not only by the banisher even), but does that really negate the Summoning rule, that restricts it to certain types?
Just because the banisher can try to summon the spirit doesn't mean, that this suddenly works with types outside his or her tradition IMHO.
Bye
Thanee
Posted by: Thain Jan 23 2007, 04:09 PM
| QUOTE (Thanee) | ||
Adepts can use Banishing? I kinda doubt that. Bye Thanee |
Of course Adepts can use Banishing; You need a Magic Rating (wich they have) and the skill... which they can learn, same as anybody.
Posted by: Thanee Jan 23 2007, 04:32 PM
Well, I understand Adepts in the way, that they cannot use Sorcery and Conjuring at all.
Bye
Thanee
Posted by: Butterblume Jan 23 2007, 04:32 PM
The BBB is pretty obvious on that part, adepts can't learn or use banishing.
Posted by: Thain Jan 23 2007, 04:49 PM
Um... by my reading of the skills chapter, and I admit I am away from book at the moment, was that unless a skill said they couldn't learn it then it was available. You need a Magic rating, and you need to learn the skill (as it can not be defaulted on) but it is do-able.
Posted by: DireRadiant Jan 23 2007, 04:58 PM
P. 113
"Unless otherwise noted in the description, only characters
with the Magician or Mystic Adept quality and a Magic attribute
of 1 or greater may take or use Magic skills. Th e use of
Magical skills is described in Th e Awakened World, p. 163."
Banishing P. 113
"Magicians use the Banishing skill to disrupt spirits, removing
them from the physical and astral planes (see Banishing, p. 180)."
Compare to Assensing
"Only characters capable of astral perception (they either have
the Magician quality or the Adept or Mystic Adept quality and
the Astral Perception adept power) may take or use this skill."
Adept can Assense, but not Banish.
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