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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ What should gangers have?
Posted by: sunnyside Jan 20 2007, 12:57 PM
It has occurred to me that even in the FASA days exactly what kind of gear gangs should be toting and in what quantities has been something they haven't laid a baseline for. Even in sourcebooks supposedly dedicated to the underworld. Sure they'll give stats for a single typical ganger, but they don't give indications of the complete package especially in regards to things like heavy and special weapons.
And the stats do give are somewhat questionable. (You'll pay for hand razors but not an armored jacket, heavy pistol, or melee weapon? No wonder the halloweeners as written in SR4 got wiped out.)
Typically I've just balanced things along the lines of how much cash flow the gang probably has compared to the availability of weapons and the like, and then just winged it with only a handful of extra heavy weapons if any.
Still I'm feeling bugged by it. On one hand real world gangs may have lots of money, but in developed nations they tend to not have anything heavier than an assault rifle, and even in third world countries they seem to only be able to come up with some LMGs and a smattering of RPGs.
However gangs are known to be able to make LOTS of money in the drug trade etc, and I think we all know what the PCs would do if you had them play gang leaders with a six figure budget.
Typically my games haven't centered around gangs to much so it wasn't enough of a factor for me to worry about. But now I'm running a game out of the Redmond Barrens so gang contact is a bigger factor.
Posted by: Jack Kain Jan 20 2007, 01:34 PM
When it comes to your typical street gangs cheep.
The hand razors are likly second hand used cyberware.
The gangs may make alot of money off drugs and BLT chips but they also blow most of the profit on there own drugs and BLT chips.
The gangs actually making a profit in the SR world graduate to criminal syndicates.
The gangs also need the contacts to get a hold of this stuff. Many fixers might not want to deal with street trash as there is a high probability of getting screwed if not by them then by a rivial.
Also the gang colors would get them stopped by police alot more. And being sinless Lone Star can simple take their armor and weapons on a whim. So they stick to streetlines and the like that will escape mad scanners.
Finally the go-gangers like the Halloweeners are meant to be stupid. They aren't ment to be very threatening. Some enemies have to be the easy guys so make it the street punks. All the successful street gangs joined criminal syndicates.
This doens't mean a gang might not have heavier weapons and armor hidden away. They just don't want there members causing a ruckess and lossing that stuff.
Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 20 2007, 02:54 PM
light pistols, decent melee skills and edged/clubs. A gang leader might carry a shotgun, heavy pistol or smg. Gang members go to war with clubs (wood, lead pipes, baseball bats, wrenches, crowbars), knives/shivs (kitchen knives, sharpened screwdrivers, sharpened junk, broken bottles, syringes ( 
) etc.) and even larger weapons like swords, and occasionally gangs have the odd lowly trained spellcaster who can cast low force heal and fireball/powerbolt, as well as being tough in a punch up.
Generally, a gang will have some nicer stolen vehicles, probably average cars like standard ford Americars (if those exist in SR4) and maybe even some roadmasters, westwinds (''), all not so expensive, and souped up, painted, and covered with makeshift armor and gun placements.
Ware is usually simple things like the occasional cyberlimb, lots of spurs/razors, crazy coloured cybereyes and maybe even boosted reflexes or plastic bone lacing.
Posted by: ornot Jan 20 2007, 03:41 PM
There are several grades of gang described in Runner Havens.
I think Sir Psycho's description is good for a street gang, but I'd be inclined to make those larger gangs (which may be associated with a syndicate) rather better equiped. I'd still consider extensive 'ware to be unusual as it costs a lot, and how do you decide which ganger gets it? But then I tend to run a low 'ware gameworld.
Posted by: lorechaser Jan 20 2007, 05:03 PM
Remember too that gangs focus more on appearance than utility in a lot of cases.
A big nail studded rusty bat is more valuable than a more dangerous, but not nearly as impressive, combat knife. A Super Warhawk, with it's heft and boom, is more useful than a Predator loaded with Stick n' Shock. Cyberweapons show your street cred. Etc.
Also, present day, a majority of gangers either think they're invincible, or don't care one way or the other. So in a choice between something that gets you street cred (hand razors) or something that keeps you alive longer (Armor jacket), most will pick the street cred.
Posted by: cetiah Jan 20 2007, 06:32 PM
The SR3 Companion covered some of this, and I think the SR4 BBB grunts section covers the rest.
According to the SR3 Shadowrun Companion, gang-fights always break down into a numbers game, by convention. It doesn't matter whether this is the way it should work or not, but as far as gangers are concerned, it does.
"No matter hos tuough its members, a small gang will always lose to a larger gang in the long run, and so the gamemaster should aim for a roughly equal balance of forces." -SR3, Runners Companion
The SR4 grunts section outlines a weak Professional Rating 1 ganger and what he would have, and this seems consistant with the "numbers over expertise" viewpoint.
The Companion further goes on to outline these members. For example, the Halloweeners shows 5 lieutenants built as prime runners. Whether you want to build these as SR4 Prime Runners or SR4 Lieutenant Grunts is really a matter of taste, but to keep the whole idea that gangers are anything better than a joke, I'd stick with making these 5 individuals superior prime runners.
The SR4 Companion lists the Halloweeners as having 25-40 members. I would assume most, if not all, of these people are grunts or lieutenant grunts, using the SR4 grunt rules.
These forces make for a healthy little gang fight, no?
The economics of gangs, also from SR3 Companion, describes how gangs don't work on "get paid for the job" system but rather do "jobs" that they don't get paid for, such as turf ways with other gangs. They get a steady income from some kind of illegal activity they do regularly. So over time, a gang's numbers will grow or the grunts in that gang will get better stuff, but I prefer to think that most of this money is going to the 5 people on the top, and there's really nothing anybody can do about it, because they're a bunch of grunts.
In summation, I'd make 3-6 prime runners with fully dished out cyberwear and weapons and stuff. The works. Everything you can, but try to keep with the idea that everything's second-hand or cheap. Then figure they have 10 times that number in grunts.
I should point out that Fanpro has officially said that the SR3 Companion is *not* compatible with SR4 and that they will be releasing a "Runner's Companion" for SR4 that appears to cover some of the same issues. (At least, I know they both cover metahuman variants...)
Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 20 2007, 07:30 PM
Your typical ganger probably would be carrynig a melee weapon of some kind and a pistol. The gang will probably have something heavier, like shotguns, and a few automatic weapons for the bigger gangs. Then again, there is no reason a small gang couldn't have something like that in their arsenal too. The big guns would be kept at the gang's HQ and would only come out when really needed. It wouldn't do to have it lost when a ganger got caught strolling up the street with it.
The more developed gangs like the Tongs and such, well, they would have more of the heavy weapons, but still would only use them when really necessary.
Another way to look at this is to use the gang archetypes in SR4 or the previous generations. That's what I used to do in terms of getting loot off of them, with some variation of course.
Posted by: Dale Jan 20 2007, 07:43 PM
Gang members in 2070 going to war with clubs? Clubs?!?
That is the most absurd thing I've heard on Dumpshock.
Posted by: sunnyside Jan 20 2007, 08:07 PM
@cetia: The SR3 companion does indeed have gang info (I'd forgotten about it though). However it doesn't actually give any armament info. Other than Halloweners have a flamethrower.
Even in your otherwise well reasoned comments you avoid it. Or when you say "prime runner" do you mean "assault cannons and missile launchers"
@lorechaser that was a clever rationalization. I may use that logic with them a lot.
If anyone is interested I spent a little while going through dusty tomes and came across an adventure called Elven Fire that deals with Ancients gang(and the rise to power of Green Lucifer, who is lucky he's an elf because this adventure was SR1 and he'd be old now otherwise).
Anyway the ancients (who are Tir backed and large it must be granted) are all equipped with scorpion bikes, UZI III's and Shotguns if they want them. "lieutenant" level members having better SMGs with vents and the like. And the leaders would be superior prime runners save for being light on the cyberware. The text describes an all out war with another gang and they pulled out a goodly number of mages, at least a pair of LAWs, and a sniper rifle.
The opposing gang, the meat junkies, manage to field four heavily armored trucks (not armoured enough to handle a LAW though) and a smattering of bikes. Otherwise they're armed with Uzi III's, Mossburg CMDT shotguns, and AK-97's. No heavy weapons.
While the Meat Junky members were fairly unimpressive, even the Ancients near grunts were more skillfull than a Knight Errant team member.
Posted by: Alex Jan 20 2007, 08:36 PM
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| While the Meat Junky members were fairly unimpressive, even the Ancients near grunts were more skillfull than a Knight Errant team member. |
SR1 had a lot more Punk and 1980's angst than SR does now. After all the game started as cyberPUNK.
Posted by: sunnyside Jan 20 2007, 09:01 PM
I still do high tech and low life, but, yes, somewhere in my GMing I suppose I did lose some of the angst and punk. Ironically the system actually supports the punk more now as the prices on cyberware and hacker grade hardware have plumeted.
Which is something I'll can use. Once you toss in the old mods for 2nd rate cyberware, used cyberware, and increased essense you can probably drop the price on the stuff by a factor of five. That starts putting much of the ware into some gangs price ranges (and offers some fun flavor as it may malfunction).
Posted by: cetiah Jan 20 2007, 10:29 PM
| QUOTE (sunnyside @ Jan 20 2007, 03:07 PM) |
| @cetia: The SR3 companion does indeed have gang info (I'd forgotten about it though). However it doesn't actually give any armament info. Other than Halloweners have a flamethrower. Even in your otherwise well reasoned comments you avoid it. Or when you say "prime runner" do you mean "assault cannons and missile launchers" |
Hmmm... sorry about that. Yeah, by "prime runners" I mean exactly what you would expect player character shadowrunners to be armed with.
That being said, I think the character generation restrictions in SR3 Companion were good, even by SR4 standards, and I'd recommend them for building the prime runners:
-No ganger can have a Knowledge, Technical, or Magical skill above rating 3.
-Gangers cannot have any gear with an Availability higher than 5.
-Contacts are generally restricted to Street contacts.
I would stretch the availability limit up to 10, so that they can at least get some of the cool goodies that their grunts have. Maybe the leader can go higher, like 12 or more, for large/scary gangs, but leaving the Halloweeners at 10 makes sense to me. This gives them some basic cyberwear (hand spurs, wired reflexes 1) and a decent selection of firearms and armor.
I would suggest, however, not applying the availability limits to vehicles or any vehicle equipment (i.e., vehicular weapons) since the book specifically suggests that gangers have an edge in this area, stealing cars and souping them up.
Posted by: Mistwalker Jan 20 2007, 11:03 PM
What the gangers have could also depend on if they have a patron or not.
Curfrently, my group of players has sponsored a small street gang. Equiped them with UZIs and decent Commlinks. They plan on continuing with better armor, some cyber, etc... Gang has 10 members right now.
Like others, most gangers don't carry their "good" weapons with them at all times. Think of the Hell's Angels. They mostly will have small stuff, usually not even a firearm. But while "working", they will carry more, and if at war, a whole lot more.
Part of the threat of gangs, is their number. If you don't take them all out, the rest will be after you.
As well, they may have connections with organized crime, who may take a dim view of your messing with their entry level people.
Posted by: Jaid Jan 20 2007, 11:58 PM
| QUOTE (cetiah) | ||
Hmmm... sorry about that. Yeah, by "prime runners" I mean exactly what you would expect player character shadowrunners to be armed with. That being said, I think the character generation restrictions in SR3 Companion were good, even by SR4 standards, and I'd recommend them for building the prime runners: -No ganger can have a Knowledge, Technical, or Magical skill above rating 3. -Gangers cannot have any gear with an Availability higher than 5. -Contacts are generally restricted to Street contacts. I would stretch the availability limit up to 10, so that they can at least get some of the cool goodies that their grunts have. Maybe the leader can go higher, like 12 or more, for large/scary gangs, but leaving the Halloweeners at 10 makes sense to me. This gives them some basic cyberwear (hand spurs, wired reflexes 1) and a decent selection of firearms and armor. I would suggest, however, not applying the availability limits to vehicles or any vehicle equipment (i.e., vehicular weapons) since the book specifically suggests that gangers have an edge in this area, stealing cars and souping them up. |
personally, i say 9 is a good rule of thumb for street level availability. 10 is what i have often seen, but imo that's just a hair high, whereas 8 is too low to allow important, basic stuff to go up to a decent rating (for example, a rating 3 fake SIN).
10, on the other hand, allows for stuff like the fubuki (not overpowering, but not street level) the walter MA-2100 (sniper rifle?) the armtech MGL-12 (semiauto grenade launcher) aztechnology striker (missile launcher) frag grenades (incidentally, i have to admit that if a gang was going to use grenades, those grenades probably would be frag... but they're cheap, and not too hard to pick up after chargen if you have the right connections) chameleon suit, thermal damping (both of those are more of a spy thing), taser shield, rating 5 autosofts and hacking programs, response 5,
on the other hand, it allows (in terms of stuff that 8 won't, but probably should imo) rating 3 agent/IC/Pilot (just enough to be slightly useful, and just before the price jump), the aforementioned fake IDs/licenses at rating 3, and cyberlimb enhancements up to rating 3. if it weren't for the C-D dalmation (and a few things that simply don't fit too well into a more street level campaign anyways, but which are available at lower ratings as well), it would be a perfect fit imo.
of course, the C-D dalmation is, as i mentioned, a little not-right for gangs. fine for street level runners, though.
Posted by: HappyDaze Jan 21 2007, 12:50 AM
| QUOTE |
| Like others, most gangers don't carry their "good" weapons with them at all times. Think of the Hell's Angels. They mostly will have small stuff, usually not even a firearm. But while "working", they will carry more, and if at war, a whole lot more. |
This is really dependent upon a gang's territory. In a suburban B/C zone knives and even some pistols will be fine, but if the gang operates in a E zone you can bet pistols are the rule with many guys packing something heavier in the car. In a Z zone you might get guys packing SMGs, shotguns and rifles along with big melee weapons (axes, swords. etc.) as an everyday thing.
Posted by: Mistwalker Jan 21 2007, 01:45 AM
True,
I had AAA-C zones in mind.
I would still think that pistols would be the normal weapon carried in the other zones.
Posted by: cetiah Jan 21 2007, 01:59 AM
| QUOTE (Mistwalker) |
| What the gangers have could also depend on if they have a patron or not. |
It's always assumed that gangs have some way of making money... whether it's looting other gangs, stealing cars, selling illegal drugs and btl chips, running protection rackets, performing low-level shadowruns, or performing "services" for a patron corp, government, gang, or wealthy individual.
The method by which a gang makes its money is irrelevant.
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
personally, i say 9 is a good rule of thumb for street level availability. 10 is what i have often seen, but imo that's just a hair high, whereas 8 is too low to allow important, basic stuff to go up to a decent rating (for example, a rating 3 fake SIN). |
Okay. The only reason I set it as high as 10 was because I thought the cyber-razors were 10, and the Halloweener grunts have them listed as gear in the SR4 main book. But I'd be perfectly comfortable with "Availability 9, plus all gear listed in the main book".
Posted by: Fortune Jan 21 2007, 02:05 AM
I wouldn't bother sticking to arbitrary generation rules when creating NPCs. I just go by what feels right for that particular individual ... or group. There's no reason why one of the Halloweeners can't have a Synaptic Accelerator, or that the Red Hot Nukes don't have access to high-rated explosives. Quite a few gangs make their money from running weapons, some like the Ancients do it on a large scale, and have access to quite a bit of mil-spec stuff.
As I said, I would just go with what feels right.
Posted by: cetiah Jan 21 2007, 02:14 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune @ Jan 20 2007, 09:05 PM) |
| I wouldn't bother sticking to arbitrary generation rules when creating NPCs. I just go by what feels right for that particular individual ... or group. There's no reason why one of the Halloweeners can't have a Synaptic Accelerator, or that the Red Hot Nukes don't have access to high-rated explosives. Quite a few gangs make their money from running weapons, some like the Ancients do it on a large scale, and have access to quite a bit of mil-spec stuff. As I said, I would just go with what feels right. |
There's nothing ever 'arbitrary' when it comes to rules the GM must abide by. GM rules and guidelines are always subjective and subject to altercation as necessary.
For some people, like myself, it's important to have a certain protocol when generating things. Deviations from that protocol can always be applied later, but having a pre-made protocol can save a GM a lot of time, work, or just brainpower. These resources can then be alloted to other things.
It's useful to say, for example, a given area will have X amount of gangers and those X amount of gangers will have Y gear. For story/roleplaying/challenge purposes, you can always change those variables later on a case by case basis, but there's no reason to potentially cripple/hinder yourself by not having them.
It's kind of the same logic that goes into whether or not to use character generation for NPCs or just make 'em up. You might as well assume that most NPCs use character generation or some other similiar system, because a GM can always "make 'em up" when appropriate.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 21 2007, 02:24 AM
I just don't see how I'm crippling myself by saying that all gangs ... and even all gangers are not the same. It seems to me that you are doing twice the work by creating a basic 'ganger template" and then adjusting it later.
Different styles I guess, but I've never really had to stress myself in order to create appropriate NPCs, even on the fly.
Posted by: Wakshaani Jan 21 2007, 03:10 AM
Admitedly, I run a lowerpowered game, BUT, for my, Greg teh Ganger will have a knife or club, because each is easy to conceal and doesn't get them horribly hassled by the police, but, can intimidate civillians, and a leather jacket (Again, they mostly deal with melee weapons, thus, armored clothes = not so handy.)
The core gangers, a step above teh punks, get Streetline Specials (Thus proving that they're a "Soldier"), and armored clotehs to go with their leather jacket.
Lieutenants get a heavier weapon ... a heavy pistol, shotgun, even an AK-97 if fairly well off.
Bosses always pack a heavy pistol and something else to stand out. Tehy usually upgrade to an armroed vest as well.
Now, if the gang is connected, such as being a Syndicate heavy, or a major gang, then things go up a notch. *Everybody* gets armored clothes and a streetline special, for example. These are "Real" gangers that the lower level gangs like teh one I mentioned above want to be someday. This gang's LT's have armored vests and either a heavy pistol or an assault rifle standard.
The bosses get special gear, while the Big Boss is tricked out heavily. Everyone at this stage is packing boosts as well, be it Quickened spells (Triads), cyberware (Yakuza), or serious social contacts (Mobsters).
The generic Ganger, tho, is pretty much like today ... a high school/Jr High kid who's dirt poor, lives at home, and pushes drugs to try and get ahead. He looks forward to fighting, to try and get himself a rep, but sucks at it to be honest. It's all about strength in numbers and intimidation.
Posted by: sunnyside Jan 21 2007, 06:01 AM
As an aside gangs like the Nova Rich probably have, well, whatever they want.
Posted by: Mistwalker Jan 21 2007, 06:34 AM
| QUOTE (cetiah) | ||
It's always assumed that gangs have some way of making money... whether it's looting other gangs, stealing cars, selling illegal drugs and btl chips, running protection rackets, performing low-level shadowruns, or performing "services" for a patron corp, government, gang, or wealthy individual. The method by which a gang makes its money is irrelevant. |
I wasn't talking about them having a way to make money. I was talking about a patron who gives them gear (weapons, cyber, etc..). This isn't them making money and deciding between buying the gear or buying booze and recreational partners.
They are getting an upgrade on their gear, nuyen free. They would be in a lot of trouble if they sold said gear without permission.
Your little local gang that runs a few drugs and BTLs, doesn't normally have a lot of firepower, nor the resources to get it.
Posted by: cetiah Jan 21 2007, 06:47 AM
| QUOTE |
I wasn't talking about them having a way to make money. I was talking about a patron who gives them gear (weapons, cyber, etc..). This isn't them making money and deciding between buying the gear or buying booze and recreational partners. They are getting an upgrade on their gear, nuyen free. They would be in a lot of trouble if they sold said gear without permission. |
Whether they get gear in exchange for service or they conduct services to earn money that buys gear... they really amount to the same thing. It's just a rationalization. You can also argue that "really lucky gangs" can have even better gear because they spend all their time being lucky instead of working for patrons.
| QUOTE |
| Your little local gang that runs a few drugs and BTLs, doesn't normally have a lot of firepower, nor the resources to get it. |
This is a highly subjective opinion. Which can be seen in my response. Here it is:
Your local gang conducts lucrative underworld activities, such as runnings drugs and BTLs, that gives them money and resources to buy lots of firepower.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 21 2007, 06:56 AM
Gangs don't buy their stuff, they steal it. All it takes for The Spikes to to get anti-tank weapons is one poorly-planned arms shipment to Tir Tairngire.
Posted by: cetiah Jan 21 2007, 07:00 AM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 21 2007, 01:56 AM) |
| Gangs don't buy their stuff, they steal it. All it takes for The Spikes to to get anti-tank weapons is one poorly-planned arms shipment to Tir Tairngire. |
Again, this still amounts to the same thing.
One gang might spend their time selling BTLs, another running protection rackets, another performing services for a patron, or another conducting raids and thefts. All of this is just a way to translate time and manpower into nuyen, services, or gear.
While it's interesting to note how a gang makes its money, it doesn't actually alter the type of equipment they can afford once you set a general baseline for how much income those gangs can earn.
Posted by: Nikoli Jan 21 2007, 09:53 AM
Another thing to consider is, how much skill, tenacity and toughness is there in shooting someone?
How much in beating them nearly to death with a baseball bat?
Gangers want to be thought of as tough, any slitch can pull a trigger, how many can beat you so bad your own mother couldn't recognize you using astral sight, a dna test and that birthmark only she knows about?
Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 21 2007, 12:33 PM
Even if a gang manages to pick up a shipment of AK-97's, I imagine they wouldn't be too shit hot at using them. I imagine them doing silly things like firing from the hip, and firing in wild burstfire.
Posted by: Wakshaani Jan 21 2007, 12:39 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Gangs don't buy their stuff, they steal it. All it takes for The Spikes to to get anti-tank weapons is one poorly-planned arms shipment to Tir Tairngire. |
Actually, gangs *do* buy their stuff, lots from pawn shops or from higher-ups who know that Jimmy the Ganger wants to geta gun and make himself a name. So, they sell him an overpriced piece of junk (A fool and his money) and send him on his way. Just another punk with a pistol in his pocket, no big deal.
When they start selling *real* weapons, tho, the police like to find out where those came from and lil' Jimmy isn't exactly the bravest kid when he's in lockdown and being interrogated. He cracks easy and then your gunshopw's gone.
Better to save the good stuff for the professional gangs, the bigger ones that know ho wto stay quiet.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 21 2007, 09:47 PM
Lone Star is unlikely to arrest Jimmy The Ganger because that would require going onto gang turf and potentially igniting a full-scale war. Gangs in Shadowrun are like the Gangs in The Warriors. They all have wacky themes and if they had a common enemy to rally against (such as the police) when they would be able to conquer Seattle, routh both Lone Star and the Metroplex guard, depose the government, and turn the whole metroplex into a gang-state. If they had a common enemy to rally against.
As it is they are too busy fighting each other and doing their petty criminal stuff, like murdering Insect Spirits (for the Spiders) and executing elves (for the Spikes), and setting cops on fire (for the Halloweeners).
But, if the police violated one gang's turf it would set a bad precedent and might just inspire some entrepreneurial gang leader to become the next Alexander the Great.
Posted by: Ombre Jan 21 2007, 10:28 PM
I'd rather agree with the original poster...
I'm not a big fan of the "madmax" vision of street gangs...that is IMHO a small fraction of the gangs, mostly the go-gangs which have a sort of tribal organization, heavily steeped into rituals and stuff...
As Sunnyside put it, gangs that deal drugs (BTL or good'old chemical crap) get their hands on lots of money. Which means they get access to a lot of hardware.
Nevertheless, it's true that every gangbanger will not pull out an Ares Alpha at every street corner, prefering to keep to the non-automatic weapons (handguns) simply because it's easily concealed and because it's not the same sentence if you get caught by the cops...
As for cyberware...well things didn't use to be that much of a problem back in SR3 since the price of implants and surgery limited this kind of gear to the upper echelons...
Now, implant prices have dropped so much that every street dealer will quickly make enough money to get wired (think about the kind of cars these guys buy in real world and compare the price of a car in SR4 with wired reflexes 1...)
So if you want to be consistent with the overall picture, gangers should definitely be cybered...
(in fact this problem of cyberware costs is the thing that really bugs me in SR4...way too low compared with some lowtech stuff like cars for exemple , or even to the average income of a Middle Class sarariman, which strangely enough hasn't changed...I understand the game mechanics involved to balance the game and allow players to get a sense of possible progression instead of having to get tons of nuyens to even consider a simple upgrade as it was in SR3...but it still remains a problem for me...)
Posted by: Jaid Jan 21 2007, 11:20 PM
i wouldn't worry too much about the cheap cyber. most of the real good stuff is bioware anyways, and that's not nearly so cheap.
Posted by: Wakshaani Jan 22 2007, 02:36 AM
I'm hoping taht we'll get some stats on secondhand cyber and some cheaper, low availability stuff for thrillgangers.
Non-retractable handrazors, chem-injector implants, and so on.
Some freaky, rictis-grinning ganger with tubes flowing out of his arms and into his pack while he talks about revving up on Jazz or Novecoke or whatever. that's creepy. It's a *way* more lowtech version of Wired Reflexes, but easy to cobble together, so will be cheap and low availability, but with a few, erm.
...
Side-effects.
Posted by: HappyDaze Jan 22 2007, 02:49 AM
| QUOTE |
| I'm not a big fan of the "madmax" vision of street gangs...that is IMHO a small fraction of the gangs, mostly the go-gangs which have a sort of tribal organization, heavily steeped into rituals and stuff... |
For your Z zones they make some sense. Some of them may be less 'gangs' and more neighborhood militias if you're feeling complimentary.
Posted by: Charon Jan 22 2007, 04:17 AM
| QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Jan 20 2007, 07:50 PM) |
| This is really dependent upon a gang's territory. In a suburban B/C zone knives and even some pistols will be fine, but if the gang operates in a E zone you can bet pistols are the rule with many guys packing something heavier in the car. In a Z zone you might get guys packing SMGs, shotguns and rifles along with big melee weapons (axes, swords. etc.) as an everyday thing. |
Well, there's two concerns here : What you can get awat with, and what you can afford/find.
In a Z zone you can get away with using assault rifle, sure. But most gang turfed in a Z zone are lowlife whose number one concern would be finding enough food not to go hungry. What kind of economy is there in those place? It's worse than third world country.
Meanwhile, a gang turfed in Downtown can't run around with big guns most of the time... But they can afford it because they have likely cornered a far more lucrative racket than most of the poor schmucks who claim glow city as a turf.
---
I don't think we need to baseline what a standard gang should have. Just figure how threatening these guy can be based on the quality of the rackets they have cornered and the support they have mustered from the other underworld actors.
Scroungers living in rat city : Clubs and knives but the odd .
Push drugs/BTL for the Mafia in Auburn : Various pistols. Some access to combat enhancing drugs.
Push drugs/BTL for the Yakuza in Downtonw : Packing pistols, but access to automatics. Some minimal cyber and general access to combat enhacing drugs. Minimal magical support.
Control a smuggling route and control their own distribution channel for their product in Tacoma : Minimal to serious cyber, combat enhancing drugs, magical support, automatics, and if their "product" happens to include heavey weapon or explosive then obviously they'd have a lot of that too.
And these are just basics.
You just turf out in glow city and try to survive : Clubs
You turf in Glow city and outsource safehouse to various third party : Pistols, armor, some combat drugs...
You turf out in Glow city and control weapon cache and other products on behalf of the Yakuza (a criminal warehouse, basically). : The full Monty.
Just case by case, basically.
Posted by: bait Jan 22 2007, 01:14 PM
Gangs have another limit, and thats organized crime.
Gangs may deal in drugs and weapons, but they tend to go through the big fish to do it. ( And the big fish don't like competition.)
Posted by: cetiah Jan 22 2007, 01:18 PM
Actually, I had always assumed that gangs were the pawns of the organized crime world, and a valuable asset, when controlled. Kind of what shadowrunners tend to be to corps, gangs tend to be to mob bosses. But that's just me and my campaign...
For starters, I can see them having to pay off a big chunk of what they've earned to the organized crime folks, maybe in subtle ways that they don't even know of. I also see that as where they get most of their high-tech gear and where they go for protection from the corps when they need it.
Posted by: sunnyside Jan 22 2007, 07:50 PM
Oh. It seems so obvious but it just occured to me.
Gangs should have drugs. And those give them stat bonuses. Though to be fair maybe they should only have those bonuses when partying or going on the warpath.
Posted by: HappyDaze Jan 22 2007, 08:51 PM
Considering the low cost and easy to hit Availability, gangers should have no problem getting firearms up to AK-97s (assault rifle or SMG/carbine model). Likewise, many forms of armor are very cheap and easy to find. Considering that the Armor Jacket is the "most popular armor solution on the streets," don't be surprised to find gangers with pretty good armor.
Now that I look at it, with the exception of a few of the more exotic items, there is no reason that typical gangers should be any less equipped than your typical shadowrunners. This helps to explain why runners with such equipment don't attract too much attention.
Posted by: CountZero Jan 22 2007, 09:28 PM
| QUOTE (cetiah) |
| That being said, I think the character generation restrictions in SR3 Companion were good, even by SR4 standards, and I'd recommend them for building the prime runners: -No ganger can have a Knowledge, Technical, or Magical skill above rating 3. -Gangers cannot have any gear with an Availability higher than 5. -Contacts are generally restricted to Street contacts. I would stretch the availability limit up to 10, so that they can at least get some of the cool goodies that their grunts have. Maybe the leader can go higher, like 12 or more, for large/scary gangs, but leaving the Halloweeners at 10 makes sense to me. This gives them some basic cyberwear (hand spurs, wired reflexes 1) and a decent selection of firearms and armor. |
I don't have SR3 Companion or Prime Runners, but I like this bit here, and I'm going to use this in my own campaigns. Big guns like assault rifles and LMGs show up in the Barrens. As you work more towards the "civilized" parts of the city you start seeing less assault rifles in the hands of the gangs, and more SMGs and pistols. Not necessarily because they don't have access to them, but because police patrols are more common, and you're more likely to get caught if you're driving around with a AK-94 where you can get at it. However, they may compensate for this by using specialty ammunition (armor piercing rounds, that sort of thing).
How I handle drug use (and what drugs are sold by) gangers is an entirely different matter, which probably belongs in another thread.
Posted by: cetiah Jan 22 2007, 09:36 PM
If I have certain NPCs that are addicted to a given drug, I just roll the addiction test prior to the scene. If they make it, they're clean and will have to jack-up during the scene if they want, otherwise they are assumed to be halfway through their jacked-up time period. Groups get one roll for the whole dang group.
Posted by: Kesslan Jan 23 2007, 05:25 AM
| QUOTE (Dale) |
| Gang members in 2070 going to war with clubs? Clubs?!? That is the most absurd thing I've heard on Dumpshock. |
Not sure if this was adressed allready, and I appologize if it was. It's just one thing that caught my eye and I still havent quite read all of the thread yet.
IT's not absurd at all. Gunfire draws unwanted attention to a big fight. Gunfire is noisy and can carry a good distance. A baseball bat and a bit of yelling on the other hand generally wont carry as far. A properly applied baseball bat to the back of the head wil only produce a nice THUNK and if swung hard enough will cave in a guy's head. Killing him just as well as if you'd shot him.
Not only that but you don thave the reload a baseball bat, or buy highly illegal things like silencers to help keep it quiet. By it's very nature the use of a baseball bat is as quiet, if not more so than your average silenced pistol from what I understand. While it's far easier to use a gun in many situations there's a good reason why one doenst use them at times.
Posted by: cetiah Jan 23 2007, 05:33 AM
I think the operative word being objected to in this case was 'war'. As in one gang deciding to take out another gang, and so everyone grabs a baseball bat. Kind of like a scene from Westside Story, isn't it?
Posted by: Large Mike Jan 23 2007, 09:56 AM
I've decided that not enough gangs that operate as a survival mechanism in a place that has no regular power, water, police presence or incoming stream of supplies use guns that they made themselves.
Street Sweeper: Because very fast rocks can hurt just as much as very fast pieces of metal, and are more likely to give you an infection.
Posted by: Ben Jan 23 2007, 12:14 PM
I'm not sure about how realistic it is, but in a TV series such as The Shield, and others beside (usually US cops series), the gangers all have pistols (easy to conceal, especially in those baggy clothes of theirs), or machine-pistols (the famed Tek-9 or whatever), or sometimes sawed-off shotguns (not necessarily in everydaylife, but at least if they intend to beat/shoot the hell out of another gang.
I'd rather see a gang war as drive-by shootings and petrol-bombing an HQ, rather than an old-fashioned, medieval banging with clubs and chop-chops. Especially in gang-controlled territory (Redmond, Pullayup…), where you don't give a fvck about gunfire noise, since the cops won't come anyway.
Posted by: Kesslan Jan 24 2007, 04:29 AM
| QUOTE (cetiah) |
| I think the operative word being objected to in this case was 'war'. As in one gang deciding to take out another gang, and so everyone grabs a baseball bat. Kind of like a scene from Westside Story, isn't it? |
Well it all depends on where the 'war' is taking place. In the barrens? Almost definately gunfire galore, but expect a few melee weapons to pop in at odd times.
Overall though I think Ben's idea of it is abit more like how it would happen. Just look at current day gangwar. Drive by shootings, bombings, the odd beating/stabbing to death. You'll very rarely have a flat out no holds bar fight between two entire gangs. ANd if you do, well in that case you probably are abit more likely to see it boil down to melee weapons.
Sort of a tough man thing. That doesnt of course ruleout ambushes where one side says they'll meet up for a rumble, and then instead use guns and grenades etc. Overall though given the actual numbers in some gangs, and the connections the larger gangs (And some smaller ones as well) have with shadow runners. Your likely to really see alot of hit and run deals.
Unless the gang is really big your not likely to see the whole gang move all at once. That or their not really a gang so much as one of the few gangs otu there that actually -is- a 'neibourhood watch'. There are a few listed, and no doubt they peddle in drugs and other illicit items to a degree. But they dont shake down folk for money. ANd their more likely to deal in illegal weapons and other things than actual BTLs and narcotics.
Posted by: ChicagosFinest Jan 24 2007, 05:59 PM
Ganger eqipment
Cash, Gun/knife (both could be conceled easily), gang parafenelia (tats and gang colors) & transportation.
Travel in groups of 4 to 12 usually wearing baggy clothes all year around.
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