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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Dual Wielding Melee?

Posted by: Punkxronin Jan 20 2007, 09:53 PM

Hey every one. I could use a little help, I'm building a Phys-adept for an upcoming shadowrun game.... Some thing I've not built before (I usually make the cyber-gun character).

I usually take ambidex to dual-wield pistols (throw lots of lead down the range), and thus I was going to do it again with dual swords.... But correct me if i'm wrong, isn't it a complex action to attack with a melee weapon? Thus... unless you split your pool you don't get to make an extra attack... So... why (if any reason) should I take ambidex to dual wield melee weapons?

Thanks in advance.

Posted by: ixombie Jan 20 2007, 10:05 PM

The only reason to dual wield melee weapons is to have two different kinds of weapons available, like shock weapon and a physical damage weapon, to use against different targets without needing to switch. That's of limited use, I think, especially because you'll want to specialize with just one type of weapon to maximize your chance of taking someone out with it. Other than that, two weapons allow you to attack two people - if you're really awesome, and your enemies suck, you can power through them faster with two weapons by splitting your dice pool.

A better reason to dual wield is to have a melee weapon in one hand and a gun in the other. That way you can shoot, and if engaged in melee you can fight with your melee weapon immediately. You won't gain the defense penalty for using a ranged weapon in melee, and you won't need to suffer the penalty for shooting a gun while in melee to defend yourself. The fact is, just like in real life, while melee can be deadly, guns rule the combat arena. The ability to make multiple, deadly attacks from a distance is not to be underestimated, and you forego it at your character's peril. It's a good idea, even for a melee based phsyad, to carry a gun in one hand. When you need it and don't have it, you'll be seriously screwed. You can scrape by with a gun when attacked in melee - when attacked at decently long range, the melee fighter is helpless unless he has a gun himself.

Posted by: Butterblume Jan 20 2007, 10:10 PM

QUOTE (Punkxronin)

(throw lots of lead down the range), and thus I was going to do it again with dual swords....

You know, lead swords aren't that effective

.

Seriously, there are no rules for dualwielding melee weapons in SR4 (yet).

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 20 2007, 11:04 PM

...sort of related to this (distantly), is the wielding of a single handed weapon with two hands. In SR3 CC p99 it allowed you to add +1 to the power number of the attack when using a Reach 1 weapon such as a Sword, Club, Centurion Laser Axe, etc.

I might houserule this one.

As to the main topic

The gun & blade (or fist if an Adept with multiple levels of Critical Strike) combo makes perfect sense. Look at the cover of the old Street Samurai Catalogue.

Posted by: fool Jan 21 2007, 12:15 AM

actually, there is a very good readon to take ambi (aside from the fact that most likely when the new book comes out it will include rules for dual weapon weilding) in that you don't take a -2 d penalty for using your off hand.
"Ah but I'm not really right handed"
"Neither am I"
princess bride.

Posted by: Jaid Jan 21 2007, 12:25 AM

QUOTE (fool)

man, that's a pretty loose paraphrasing there

anyways, there's nothing says you can't make an unarmed kick, in which case you don't have to worry about which hand you're using, or whether or not it has a gun in it. furthermore, you can always club people with your gun (especially if that gun happens to be a defiance ex shocker).

i don't consider it too big of a concern to be able to have your melee weapon out while gunfighting "just in case". maybe if your primary method of fighting is melee and you're just using your gun while you approach or something i guess.

Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 21 2007, 12:29 AM

There were rules for this in SR2, Fields of Fire. Modified to SR4 they would look something like this.

Characters may learn armed melee combat stules that allow them to use a second weapon. The following rules represent the effects of using a second melee weapon in combat.

*The second weapon must be physically smaller and lighter than the dominant weapon, unless they are both small weapons like daggers or knives.

* The character must know how to use each of these two weapons individually. (Yes, they may fall under the Close Combat kill group or Blades or Clubs.)

*The character must acquire a special skill for the fighting style (Rapier and Dagger and so on)

A character using two weapons in combat makes his Attack Test by rolling a base number of dice equal to the character's combined individual skills in the two weapons. The level in the Special Skill for two weapons fighting is the maximum number of dice that can be used from the skill of the secondary weapon.

Resolve damage by finding the unmodified, average damage of the two weapons and using that average. (This originally referred to Power Level and there was some more about damage level, but those aren't used anymore.)

Resolve the use of both weapons with a single test using the damage calculated above. Remember that Shadowrun melee combat is not resolved blow by blow. Instead, each Attack Test is an abstraction of a series of moves, blows, feints and parries. All melee other melee combat rules apply as normal.

Altogether: A character, with an AGI of 5, wants to wield a sword and dagger. Both are covered under Blades, which this character has at 5. He does not have a specialization. He learns a Special Skill: Sword and Dagger at level 3. He would roll AGI + Blades + Blades (max special skill) or 5 + 5+ 3.

Damage would be as follows. A sword is STR/2 + 3. A Knife is STR/2 + 1. Averaged, that would be STR/2 + 2 for wielding both weapons. If the character has an STR of 6, base damage would be 5, modified by dice rolls and armor.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 21 2007, 12:51 AM

...I think I'll just wait until Arsenal comes out. Too much to for KK4.3 spend Karma on already.

Posted by: djinni Jan 21 2007, 01:06 AM

QUOTE (Punkxronin)

But correct me if i'm wrong, isn't it a complex action to attack with a melee weapon?

yes it's a complex action but in wielding two weapons you split the dice pool and each dice pool allows you to make a seperate attack.
as with firearms when you fire you split the pool and make two seperate attack tests which translates to two seperate attacks.
the same things happens when you dual wield in melee.

just like you pointed out

Posted by: Jack Kain Jan 21 2007, 01:22 AM

QUOTE (fool @ Jan 20 2007, 06:15 PM)

I'm fairly sure it was
I... am not left-handed.
I am not left handed either.

The point of the quote was they weren't left-handed but intentionally gave them self an advantage. Like in anime when the martial artist drops the 200 pounds of weighted clothing.

Djinni, You can wield one melee weapon and split your dice pool to make two attacks.
Example, my elf street samurai could make two attacks every IP with his monowhip by spliting his dice pool.

Posted by: Jaid Jan 21 2007, 01:31 AM

there's I(nigo), and MWB(Man Wearing Black) speaking. the lines go as follows:

[ Spoiler ]

as you can see (or, if you chose not to open the spoiler, you can't see, and will have to take my word for it) it is quite a loose paraphrase. there are a few lines in between, and probably about 15-20 seconds between the two lines in question, and you furthermore had your hands mixed up. man, i'd hate to get directions from you (and on a side note... V: Veer left! Left! THE OTHER LEFT!)

Posted by: ornot Jan 21 2007, 03:13 AM

quoting the RAW (p148)

QUOTE

multiple targets
Characters may attack more than one opponent in melee with the same Complex Action, as long as those opponents are within a metre of each other. The Attacker's dice pool is split between each attack, and each attack is handled seperately.

Consequently, while you can attack multiple enemies under certain circumstances in melee, you are effectively expected to hit them both with the same weapon, and dual weilding gives no benefit.

It is very likely that there will be rules for dual wielding in a later book.

Posted by: Punkxronin Jan 21 2007, 03:33 AM

Thanks every one ^_^ That clears up a lot of questions I had...

I am likely to still build a Sword Adept, but i have a feeling he'll also be fairly skilled in pistols as well. It seems like if he doesn't have some kind of fire-arms skill he'll suffer badly.

As he'll have a good agility for blades, it would compliment pistols/firearms of some kind well.

I'll probably still take Ambidex, to A. Dual wield pistols when I need to fight at range, B. To have a sword and gun prepared while I close distance to melee and finally C. If they ever do release rules for dual-wielding melee weapons.

Any one have any suggestions on how I can maximize my killing prowess by being a "Sword Adept" and still shoot guns? I'm used to simply taking bio/cyber to supplement dicepools... but that might not be as easily done due to magic rating.

Posted by: ornot Jan 21 2007, 03:41 AM

I understand the most bang for your buck when it comes to power points is with improved ability. You'll also want combat sense, improved reflexes and possibly mystic armour or pain resistance. Only improved ability would be restricted to either blades or guns, the rest improve your combat worthiness in both. Note these are only the powers in the SR4 core. I don't have my copy of Street Magic with me, but there are more options in that.

There are many more expert folk on dumpshock than me, learned in the art of tweaking (and in some cases munchkining) adepts. In fact I suspect adepts are among the most popular character types, simply because of how good you can get them at doing a specific thing.

Posted by: lorechaser Jan 21 2007, 05:32 AM

QUOTE (Jaid @ Jan 20 2007, 06:25 PM)

Gun Fu is a well respected art!

It's perfectly reasonable for a pistol adept (or even an SMG adept) to have 4 ranks in clubs, with a specialization in "Pistol Whipping."

I'm working on getting my gun turned in to a weapon focus, even....

Posted by: Jack Kain Jan 21 2007, 05:43 AM

My guy keeps his Machine Pistol in one hand and his monowhip in the other. So he's ready for anyone who comes into melee range. Funny thing, no one wants to fight a guy wielding a monowhip. I always have to walk up go to them. Why won't they attack me at close range.

Posted by: Drraagh Jan 21 2007, 07:25 AM

QUOTE (Jack Kain)

Well, it all comes down to that fine line we all deal with in combat. While we all can't be razor sharp when it comes to fighting, with a gun its simple point, pull, pray combat with thw technology being more and more idiotproof to make up for the user. With a monowire whip, you'ld be cutting it awfully close to do more than putting a counter-weight in there. What else could the do for it so that you could whip it good?

Posted by: Glyph Jan 21 2007, 07:46 AM

QUOTE (Punkxronin)

Any one have any suggestions on how I can maximize my killing prowess by being a "Sword Adept" and still shoot guns? I'm used to simply taking bio/cyber to supplement dicepools... but that might not be as easily done due to magic rating.

It's generally worth it to get one point of bioware, simply to pick up muscle augmentation and muscle toner - that's two points to Agility and Strength, giving you +1 to the power of your melee attacks and adding two dice to all of your combat skills (and a good number of others).

It's easier to be good with guns and blades, since they both use Agility as their linked Attribute now. If you have a decent agility, then you can have Blades: 6 (with a specialization in swords) for your primary function, and still have decent ranged ability by getting Pistols: 4 with a specialization in Semi-Automatics. Assuming an Agility soft-maxed at 5, raised to 7 with bioware, and a smartlink, you will be rolling a respectable 15 dice with a pistol, which is not bad at all. The Blades skill is where you can spend any points from Improved Ability. Don't forget Reflex Recorders and Weapon Foci, though - especially the latter, since they not only add dice, but also let you affect things like spirits much more easily.

Posted by: Jack Kain Jan 21 2007, 07:46 AM

I was joking, the reason they don't want to engage me in melee is what kind of fool wants to get in range of a weapon that deals 8P with an AP of -4.

As the whip recoils into the handle I placed it on a hidden arm slide.

Posted by: Ophis Jan 21 2007, 12:05 PM

On trick I've found works very nicely for sword adepts is using a Weapon Focus in one hand and an attuned balde in the other. Since Weapon Foci only add on attacks, you use the attuned blade as a parrying dagger. It does require being quite powerful to get it to work but it's still a pretty cool trick.