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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Immunity normal weapons

Posted by: djinni Jan 22 2007, 09:50 PM

Recently our group came up against a couple Roach Spirit hybrids, and they just so happend to have been a former shadowrunning group...
Armored jackets, Armored Vest, Lined Coat That type of thing...

for a rating 3 hybrid immunity to normal weapons gives him 6 points armor (hardened) and since he was wearing an armored jacket this gave him 14 points of hardened armor...

is that right?

Posted by: Demerzel Jan 22 2007, 10:30 PM

That's a tough one, I questioned it http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=14570&hl= However I only received one response. I decided to use the Case 2 in my post, as Jaid suggested, what do you think?

Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 22 2007, 11:12 PM

I agree that they would have 6 points of hardened armor with the rest counting as regular armor. The hardened armor is part of the spirit's "body". As such putting regular armor on top of that won't make it hardened as such because it is on the spirit and not a part of it.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 23 2007, 01:06 AM

Since only 6 points count as hardened, it really isn't all that impressive. Any attack of less than 6 is probably not going to do anything anyway because the 14 dice of armor and ~7 dice of Body would average negating 7 boxes of damage - that's enough damage resistance that the hardened portion doesn't even matter - it's really just a formality.

-Frank

Posted by: Demerzel Jan 23 2007, 01:19 AM

The problem is that there isn't really rules for how to combine Hardened Armor with Regular armor.

I think that some people think of it as the non hardened armor slows the incoming bullets then the hardened armor underneath can fully mitigate it. So any hardened armor underneath any armor would effectively make it all hardened. I don't think that the case.

Then to show where your case may break down consider:
What happens if you've only got 6 points of regular armor and 6 points of hardened. You'd get body, Say 7, plus armor 12 is 19 dice in the pool. Roll that and get 5 ro 6 hits, but if they are shooting a 5P with a narrow burst with 1 net hit the damage for sure is ignored, but if they get two net hits you're rolling against 10S with 19 dice, you'll take something, and specifically where the hardened line comes in is important.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 23 2007, 01:39 AM

Hardened and non hardened armor both add dice to your damage resistance test. In addition if the modified DV of an incoming attack does not exceed your total amount of hardened armor, you take nodamage. In addition, if the modified DV of an incoming attack does not exceed your non-hardened armor, the damage is converted from physical to stun.

So having hardened armor and non-hardened armor is inferior to having more hardened armor or having more non-hardened armor. But it does add more damage resistance dice, which is good.

-Frank

Posted by: Demerzel Jan 23 2007, 02:25 AM

So if I have 6 points of hardened and 6 of non-hardened and take 7P from a bullet, I don't cdowngrade it to stun since the modified DV is not less than the non-hardened? That seems counter intuitive.

Posted by: Jack Kain Jan 23 2007, 03:03 AM

How is it counter intuitive.
Armor isn't supposed to stack anyway. If your wearing an armor jacket and a chameleon suit you don't get an armor of 14, only the highest of the two count. Why should this be any different? It shouldn't. A few things can stack with armor, a helm the armor spell or a adepts mystic armor.

The rules, if the modifed DV is not greater then the armor value it becomes stun damage.
With hardened armor if the modified DV doesn't execde the armor value it is negated instead.

By the OP logic if a creature had hardened armor of 2 and wore full body armor 10/8 and a helm 2/2 he'd have hardened armor of 14/12. Does that make sense to you? I thought not.

Lets look at an another unequal value we have the same bug spirits with a hardened armor of 6 they are wearing full body armor and a helmet. 12/10. If the modified DV for the bullet (including the AP) is less then 12 but more then 6 it becomes stun. However if it is 6 or less its negated.

Posted by: Demerzel Jan 23 2007, 03:18 AM

QUOTE (Jack Kain)

By the OP logic if a creature had hardened armor of 2 and wore full body armor 10/8 and a helm 2/2 he'd have hardened armor of 14/12. Does that make sense to you? I thought not.

I would infact consider that an intuitive interpretation.

If my body is hardened armor and I wear armor over that then The armor would slow the bullet prior to being effected by the hardened armor.

If I have bone lacing and a few levels of orthoskin then get a spirit pact and gain immunity to normal weapons then they should all stack. The description for bone lacing and orthoskin indicate that they are cumulative with worn armor, but they are somehow incompatable with a mystic shield of energy? And you think that is intuitive?

Posted by: Jack Kain Jan 23 2007, 04:15 AM

But how does having a few points of hardened armor make any other armor you wear hardened.
Even if it does stack, ONLY the armor granted from immunity to normal weapons would be hardened. Where does it say that any armor stacked ontop would also be hardened? it doesn't so you have 6 points of hardened armor.

Lets look at the stacking version. We have Phil, he has an armor jacket. He is possessed by a bug spirit that is giving him an hardened armor of 6. This would total 14/12 for his armor. if the modified DV is more then 6 but less then 14 its stun. If its less then 6 its nothing. To say his bug spirit power somehow enhances his mundane armor into hardened is crazy.

If you want a slow down effect not have the power turn regular armor into hardened armor which is beyond the powers intentions. (it gives hardened armor equal to the magic rating x2)

Lets look back at Phill for the slow down effect. ROLL the mundane armor first. Then compare that to the new DV and see if its below the hardened armor. you get your slow down effect but prevent hardened armor 2 from becoming 14 through heavy worn mundane armor.

The slow down reasoning doesn’t really work because wearing two armor jackets should help but it doesn’t

Posted by: Demerzel Jan 23 2007, 04:33 AM

QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Jan 22 2007, 08:15 PM)

Lets look at the stacking version. We have Phil, he has an armor jacket. He is possessed by a bug spirit that is giving him an hardened armor of 6. This would total 14/12 for his armor. if the modified DV is more then 6 but less then 14 its stun. If its less then 6 its nothing. To say his bug spirit power somehow enhances his mundane armor into hardened is crazy.

I'm not advocating the slowdown effect. In fact I noted that I use the version you've mentioned. I however am not willing to say that a reasonable person could not intuit that.

What I questioned from Frank is that in your Phil example if he received a modified DV of 9 or more it would be Physical acording to his post.

Your eample indicates that if the modified DV is less than 14 it is stun (which is itself a poor reading of the rule, it should if anything be less than or equal to, but that's an easy mistake).

So you see I find it counter intuitive that a modified DV from 1 to 6 is No damage, from 7 to 8 is Stun damage and from 9 and up it is physical.

You appear to have assumed that what I found counter intuitive is that the armor is all converted to hardened. I'm sorry for your mistake.

Posted by: Jack Kain Jan 23 2007, 05:25 AM

QUOTE (Demerzel)

What I questioned from Frank is that in your Phil example if he received a modified DV of 9 or more it would be Physical acording to his post.

So you see I find it counter intuitive that a modified DV from 1 to 6 is No damage, from 7 to 8 is Stun damage and from 9 and up it is physical.

You appear to have assumed that what I found counter intuitive is that the armor is all converted to hardened. I'm sorry for your mistake.

Ok so I did miss understand you. Though when I called the armor 14/12 hardened you called it Intuitive so that did compound my confusion.

The thing about the 1-6-9 thing is its simple. You only have to make the single roll and count the hits. When you have roll the outer armor first then compare then if its high enougth roll the rest can slow it down if your fighting several guys at once. You also avoid the question of (where does AP apply?)

How my street samurai would likly handle these guys is take a -8 to his attack so he could ignore the armor jacket. He's quite handy with his machine pistols which are loaded with EXEX for for most foes. That mean he'd only need a single hit to over come the weapon immunity.

Or he'd attack with his monowhip in melee.

Posted by: toturi Jan 23 2007, 07:15 AM

Add the Armor spell and shields in for greater confusion! Which armor value does the Armor spell add to? Which armor value does the shield add to? Does the shield add to the Full Body Armor's hardened Armor value?

For even greater confusion, substitute a plasteel homoculus instead!

A plasteel homoculus wearing Full Body Armor with a shield and an Armor spell!

Posted by: Jack Kain Jan 23 2007, 05:55 PM

I'm fairly sure a homoculus would be immune to stun anyway.

Posted by: djinni Jan 24 2007, 02:15 AM

QUOTE (Jack Kain)

I'm fairly sure a homoculus would be immune to stun anyway.

can an astrally projecting magician possess a plasteel homonculus?

Posted by: Jack Kain Jan 24 2007, 02:22 AM

QUOTE (djinni @ Jan 23 2007, 08:15 PM)

QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Jan 23 2007, 12:55 PM)

I'm fairly sure a homoculus would be immune to stun anyway.

can an astrally projecting magician possess a plasteel homonculus?

Stun damage from bullets and knives not from magic or drain.
I was also thinking only of spirits.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 24 2007, 03:01 AM

Headshots are your friend.

Posted by: Jack Kain Jan 24 2007, 03:21 AM

QUOTE (Sir_Psycho)

Headshots are your friend.

Thats what helmets are for.

Posted by: djinni Jan 24 2007, 06:02 AM

QUOTE (Jack Kain)

Stun damage from bullets and knives not from magic or drain.
I was also thinking only of spirits.

I wasn't thinking of drain, but of a practical application for a PC.
why be a troll if I can just possess this bipedal indestructable statue

Posted by: Jack Kain Jan 24 2007, 06:13 AM

Because you can only be out of your body for a number of hours equal to your magic. And transporting that thing might be difficult.

Posted by: djinni Jan 24 2007, 07:02 AM

QUOTE (Jack Kain)

Because you can only be out of your body for a number of hours equal to your magic. And transporting that thing might be difficult.

and how long does a run last? ours only last maybe an hour,

Posted by: Eryk the Red Jan 24 2007, 01:52 PM

Um, my group's last one took the better part of a week. They had one that took about a month. Not every run is as simple as "break in and steal the serum".

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 24 2007, 04:45 PM

You could take inspiration from the buying hits rule and assume that the outer worn armor will reduce the attack DV by 1 per 4 points, and thus simply treat the hardened armor as hardened at it's rating plus the 1/4 of the rating of the armor worn over it.
This sort of thinking could be applied to mixing armor types that stack, or even to those that normally don't.
Just a thought.

Posted by: djinni Jan 24 2007, 07:46 PM

QUOTE (Eryk the Red)

Um, my group's last one took the better part of a week. They had one that took about a month. Not every run is as simple as "break in and steal the serum".

and during that time you are sleeping, eating, doing legwork...
how much of that involves combat?

Posted by: Eryk the Red Jan 24 2007, 08:58 PM

Time limits can matter outside of combat. Such as during a crosscountry road trip (the month-long run), or any other time when there is constant activity. (Even if the activity is repetitive, like driving.)

Posted by: toturi Jan 25 2007, 01:26 AM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

That'd be a good house rule, but that also means that you'd be better off wearing the "soft" armor outside the hard one. What if the hard armor was over the soft?