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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ lone star and the law

Posted by: celegar Jan 25 2007, 09:10 PM

just wondering how many "laws" lonestar "bends" in order to get a conviction.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 25 2007, 09:12 PM

according to a number of books, enough to get it done, but not quite draw attention. Really depends on the officer in question and how the GM lieks ti interpret the setting I suppose.

Posted by: cetiah Jan 25 2007, 10:18 PM

Celegar, we could all help better if you provide some specific questions or examples for discussion. Otherwise it's difficult to tell what kind of answers you're looking for.

Generic questions will always get generic responses.

Posted by: celegar Jan 25 2007, 10:37 PM

well, this is a generic question, becuase it is imencely broad.
like would lonestar be willing to get a person to testify falsely againstly. im just asking how far you think lonestar would go for a conviction. or even a confession.

Posted by: DireRadiant Jan 25 2007, 10:40 PM

QUOTE (celegar)

Imagine you're a cop who gets paid by how many convictions you get.... and there is little verification that is done of convictions?

Posted by: Mistwalker Jan 25 2007, 10:40 PM

Just like today.

Some would go to any lengths to get a conviction, others would let those they know to be guilty, if they couldn't get the evidence legally.

Depends on the players (chars), the storyline / plotline, and what the GM decides.

Posted by: celegar Jan 25 2007, 10:45 PM

well, lets see if i can specify more.
i guess im asking what you think lonestars stand is in comparison to todays police force. after all they are just hired mercenarys effectively.

Posted by: cetiah Jan 25 2007, 10:47 PM

QUOTE (celegar @ Jan 25 2007, 05:45 PM)

well, lets see if i can specify more.
i guess im asking what you think lonestars stand is in comparison to todays police force. after all they are just hired mercenarys effectively.

(Not Canon, just my interpretation:)

Up until I found the Lone Star supplement, I always just thought of Lone Star as police, kind of like the LAPD. After skimming through the Lone Star supplement, I've come to the conclusion that Lone Star is evil. Pure evil. I think that fits well with the genre. They are not just an extension of today's concept of "police force", but are a twisted evil version of a similiar concept. And they are involved in some very twisted dealings.

Posted by: cetiah Jan 25 2007, 10:50 PM

Also, in my game, I'm trying to play up the stuff in the SR4 book about Lone Star and how they might soon lose their contract to defend Seattle. I think Lone Star would do anything to prevent that. Anything.

Posted by: TheOOB Jan 25 2007, 10:54 PM

I've always viewed it like this. Your average Lone Star beat cop is just like a cop in current day society, they just want to clean up the streets and get a little money while doing so. Their overworked, underpaid, and highly stressed, which probally would make them tend to be a little too violent at times, but otherwise they are usually good cops.

However, with rare exception, the higher ups in Lone Star are all, almost without exception, evil corporate big wigs. All they care about is making money, and they only bother solving crime to keep their security contracts(but they make sure plenty of crime still exists so they are needed). People who are good cops tend not to make it up to the high ranks of Lone Star because the last thing they need is a goody-two-shoes mucking up everything.

Knight Errant is similar, but probally a little cleaner because they want Seattles secrity contract.

Posted by: SL James Jan 26 2007, 01:01 AM

QUOTE (TheOOB)

Underpaid is an understatement. I don't want to meet the person who is willing to be a cop in a city like Seattle for 20,000¥ a year on average, which is literally half of what cops in major American cities make as rookies.

And I sure as Hell don't want them to be given a gun, insane firearms proficiency, a badge, and a pat on the shoulder saying, "Go git 'im." Which is what Lone Star officers basically get.

Posted by: cetiah Jan 26 2007, 02:59 AM

QUOTE (SL James)

From the 1994 Shadowrun book, "Lone Star":

>>>>(Now apply that to Lone Star. It's got a rep for cracking skulls and violating people's civil rights. Who's going to want to join Lone Star? People who enjoy cracking skulls and violating people's civil rights.)<<<<
- Dog Soldier

>>>>(You'd be surprised.)<<<<
-Wolf

82% of all Lone Star street officers are human. 85% are female.

Modern police officer training is starting to focus less on intensive combat training and more academic training like criminology, psychology, and even sociology and anthropology. Technical training is also concentrated on (over combat skills), but the book doesn't really go into detail there. The shadowtalk goes on to describe that despite the reduced emphasis on combat training, it's all pretty relative, and even Lone Star janitors are required to meet a certain minimal firearms proficiency.

Most Lone Star street officers make 20,000 nuyen a year. The top rank for street officers is precinct captain and they make 48,000 nuyen a year.

On-duty police officers have paid Gold DocWagon coverage and off-duty police officers get Basic DocWagon coverage.

There are quotes to the effect of "Corruption plagues Lone Star". There's a Corruption section in the Personnel chapter. However, everyone's terrified of Internal Affairs so bribing is difficult.

I was hoping to find a bunch of other miscellaneous benefits listed for working for Lone Star, but I didn't find that. One can assume the benefits are similar to a wageslave for any other corp.

Yeah the job sucks. Unless you're into the power trip. Or you're just really, really patriotic. Or if you're ex-military and looking to start work immediately for a company looking for ex-military types. I imagine its still a huge improvement over working for UCAS.

Posted by: Eleazar Jan 26 2007, 03:39 AM

Also a lot of it depends on where you are too. In Seattle, if your in what is called AAA rating zone then Lonestar will do just about anything that improves their image in that zone. Even the most minor crime is taken care of swiftly. Response times here a very quick because a job in a AAA zone is seen as the "ultimate promotion". Lonestar here are very enthusiastic to get the job done. If that means finding the nearest scapegoat just to release them later, thats what it means. As far as getting someone to testify falsely, not usually, unless they now they could get away with it and it served a very great purpose. You have to realize that Lonestar has private investigators, news organizations, hackers, and other forces observing what it does(Knight Errant). A major flop-up like that and they just might be handing their contract over to Knight Errant. I would think Lonestar right now is keeping every i dotted and every t crossed.

Posted by: Thain Jan 26 2007, 04:56 AM

The annual wage from the Lone Star sourcebook should probably be adjusted, the book was published in 1994, and there has been some inflation in the past 12 years. Anyoen else whince when they hear the Principla in The Breakfast Club proudly proclaim that he makes "$30,000 a year!" Yeah, I made that working part-time at Blockbuster in `05.

That said ¥20,000/year is ten months of Low Lifestyle: "An apartment, but nothing to brag about."
Sounds like what most newbeat cops should expect in the gritty world of Shadowrun. I'd probably fudge it, and give a Lone Star beat cop a full year at Low Lifestyle at their rate of pay. Call it a discount from their landlord, and move on. (In my experince, cops usually can get discounts from leaseholders; a cop in the building cuts down on petty crime.)

¥48,000/year for a Preceint Captain is just shy of a years worth of Middle Lifestyle. If we add in a working spouse (with a similar wage) You've got enough to cover Middle Lifestyle quite comfortably, and still save for a vacation to someplace with actual sunshine.

A Gold DocWagon contract is ¥25,000/year. Even if it only covers the cop when "on duty," that's a benefit of ~¥12,000/year. So the rookie cop is actually drawing about ¥32,000 annually, plus bribes. (Probably just a free lunch here, and an occassional roll in the sack with the local joygirl (or boy))

That's not terribly bad, really.

They've got health care, medicine, food, a secure place to sleep, and can comehome to a glowing trid and a cold beer. They're no worse off than most UCAS citizens, and head and shoulders above the SINless.

Posted by: TheOOB Jan 26 2007, 05:01 AM

All that low lifestyle and health insurance only for being shot at by the first Ork who thinks you'll shot him because he's an Ork.

Gotta love the 6th world.

Posted by: SL James Jan 26 2007, 05:17 AM

QUOTE (Thain @ Jan 25 2007, 10:56 PM)

Adjusted for inflation back in 1994, that was still very low for an average (i.e., not rookie) officer in a large city. In 2007, it's really low. However, inflation in SR has been, for the most part, non-existent. So it was, is, and generally will be a shit salary.

QUOTE (TheOOB @ Jan 25 2007, 11:01 PM)

All that low lifestyle and health insurance only for being shot at by the first Ork who thinks you'll shot him because he's an Ork.

What more reason would the cop need?

Posted by: cetiah Jan 26 2007, 05:34 AM

QUOTE (SL James @ Jan 26 2007, 12:17 AM)

QUOTE (Thain @ Jan 25 2007, 10:56 PM)

QUOTE (TheOOB @ Jan 25 2007, 11:01 PM)

All that low lifestyle and health insurance only for being shot at by the first Ork who thinks you'll shot him because he's an Ork.

What more reason would the cop need?

Well, technically there's been deflation.
Which, I'm starting to think, based on how I interpret the economics of Shadowrun, makes a lot of sense.

As for cops, I'd like to think there are pretty good retirement benefits, if not for Lone Star than at least for Knight Errant. I mean, why not? It's not like they'll live to retirement anyway.

Posted by: Westiex Jan 26 2007, 05:49 AM

Lone Star is like any other corporation in terms of hiring shadowrunners -

Can't touch a crime lord whose bad for public image?
Need to find (or 'find') enough evidence for a conviction?
There's a crime happening that your superiors have told you not to touch?

Posted by: Grinder Jan 26 2007, 08:00 AM

QUOTE (cetiah)

82% of all Lone Star street officers are human. 85% are female.

Wow, never thought that (even though I have the LS sourcebook, but haven't read it for ages).

Posted by: cetiah Jan 26 2007, 08:11 AM

QUOTE (Grinder)

QUOTE (cetiah @ Jan 26 2007, 03:59 AM)

82% of all Lone Star street officers are human. 85% are female.

Wow, never thought that (even though I have the LS sourcebook, but haven't read it for ages).

Ooops.

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 26 2007, 08:19 AM

QUOTE (cetiah)

QUOTE (Grinder @ Jan 26 2007, 03:00 AM)

QUOTE (cetiah @ Jan 26 2007, 03:59 AM)

82% of all Lone Star street officers are human. 85% are female.

Wow, never thought that (even though I have the LS sourcebook, but haven't read it for ages).

Ooops.

Having recently read the LS book. I dont think that 85% female ratio was right. I think it's actually 85% male for steet cops. LS at least initally when the book was written was still very much stuck in 'old ways'. They did state that the corp was now starting to adjust to 'the real world' and hiring on alot more female cops though. So by 2060-2070 it's probably got a much higher percentage of female cops.

Posted by: Wakshaani Jan 26 2007, 10:58 AM

Yeah, it's majority-male Street Cops, majority female Administration, majority male Management. (Call it 85% each), because in addition to being a racist, the founder was sexist too.

As for pay rates, IIRC, Low Lifestyle was 1000Y a month back when Lone Star was published, while Middle was still 5000, so, rookie cops were in between. I'd wager a more modern salary would look more like:

Rookie: 24,000Y a year
Captain: 60,000Y a year.

Those would be starting pay levels, with bonuses for time served and the like. At teh absolute least, street cops afford a low lifestyle, senior cops middle. After a couple years, they'd have enough raises to hit the 10% level needed to support someone else (Let's get married!) and a couple years later, a kid, then another kid if they're lucky.

Not a bad gig, overall, but nothing to write home about.

Of course, they also get a GREAT medical benefits plan, stock options, and discounts when buying Lone Star Inc gear, such as Prarie Home Companion (Keep your filly secure) home security systems, Ruger brand firearms and firearm accessories, and Lone Ranger sims (From Western Media, a subsidiary of Texas Tech, a part of the global Lone Star Inc family).

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 26 2007, 11:10 AM

Actually LS doesnt have any manufacturing companies under its wing. Ruger is far as I know still an independant (Or owned by another corp) corporation. Thats why you can in later years buy a Thunderbolt even though it's a LS Corp R&D baby. The contract just stated that for X years Ruger couldnt sell them to the public but after that period they could.

Still given 'close ties' with various firearms companies and such they could well get some sort of discount program. Alot of big companies cut deals like that to offer as 'perks' becuase ultimately those perks cost them alot less than additional cash benifits (They also wouldnt be taken up on quite as often either)

Posted by: BlacKat Jan 26 2007, 06:25 PM

I have always pictured Lone Star to be kinda like the cops from Punisher 2050. If the citizen was not a paying subscriber most things were just brushed under the carpet or ignored.

Yeah they had to do generally public work, but unless you were a paying member crimes would go mostly to the back burner.

BlacKat

Posted by: cetiah Jan 26 2007, 06:31 PM

QUOTE (BlacKat)

I have always pictured Lone Star to be kinda like the cops from Punisher 2050.

Is this anything like Punisher 2099?
Man, that 2099 stuff's great for capturing the feel of a shadowrun-like setting.

Posted by: sunnyside Jan 26 2007, 10:10 PM

To the OP: Remember that as often as not lone star doesn't need to bother with a conviction. If you don't have a SIN well, all kinds of things can happen. You can get locked up pending trial and whoops! there went the paperwork.

And in the street who knows what could happen.

Generally speaking I play lonestar as a corp out to keep it's contract and it does that by keeping the voters and people with money and influence happy. And they do that by making them feel safe and secure.

Therefore I gauge lone stars response to things largely on how obvious you made yourself and what rating neighborhood you're in and who you're acting against.

Since each corp and crime racket gains as much advantage from shadowrunners as any other LS doesn't have to much margin in preventing that kind of stuff. Similarly if you're in an A rating neighborhood and you're doing something illegal but the cops are the only ones that know about it they often won't care.

But if you start shooting and catch a schoolkid, now they take the kid gloves off and somebodies going to jail.

I like my players to know that so they work at being subtle and realize why taking some corps drone prototype doesn't get them in a fraction of the trouble from LS that breaking into a jewelry store would.

Posted by: Demerzel Jan 26 2007, 10:35 PM

QUOTE (sunnyside)

But if you start shooting and catch a schoolkid, now they take the kid gloves off and somebodies going to jail.

How do you model the death of a bystander in your game out of curiosity? A possible result of a firearms glitch? Or just an occasional consequence based on total expended ammo count?

Posted by: ornot Jan 27 2007, 12:34 AM

I tned to think of LS as hired thugs. At least the officers on the beat. Non too bright, but pretty unpleasant to actually deal with. In the stations are the PR types, who're unlikely to work on the streets anywhere rated less than A, but who maintain the public face of the corporation.

As for bending the rules to gain false convictions, that depends on the crime and the perp. I don't think LS are actually responsible for the judiciary, so the most they could do to get a conviction is perjure themselves, and that would be a whole risk/reward thing, based on the circumstances.

Has been interesting to hear about the LS sourcebook. I've never read that one.

Posted by: cetiah Jan 27 2007, 01:24 AM

QUOTE (ornot)

It's my second favorite next to New Seattle. It's actually tied for second with Virtual Realities 2.0, but now that I'm using SR4, VR 2.0 is slipping into third place.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 27 2007, 10:07 AM

the LS SB does basically describe the Star cops as hired thugs. That's what they were originally hired as. But after the original CEO was replaced by his cousin, that was changed.

Now if you want to stick with it there is certainly precedencee. After all, plenty of those cops that were hired for those qualities could certainly still be on the force. But the plan was to have them replaceed by cops that would be more police and less hatchet men.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 27 2007, 06:11 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/ShadowDragon8685/3025_Hatchetman1.jpg Hehehe. Lone Star has hatchet men?

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 27 2007, 06:13 PM

hehe, yeah, fuck Robocop.

Posted by: sunnyside Jan 28 2007, 12:37 AM

QUOTE (Demerzel)

QUOTE (sunnyside @ Jan 26 2007, 02:10 PM)

But if you start shooting and catch a schoolkid, now they take the kid gloves off and somebodies going to jail.

How do you model the death of a bystander in your game out of curiosity? A possible result of a firearms glitch? Or just an occasional consequence based on total expended ammo count?

Oh geez, what edition was it in. There used to be rules for it. But I didn't remeber where they were when I started again with SR4. So now I kinda roll based on how likely I think someone is to be hit and then roll d6 extra hits on the damage value. It's a rough thing now and often I'll just forgo the dice for flavor or just pretend to look at them.

Fortunitly when runners really unload around crowds it's only a question of how many.