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Posted by: Mistwalker Jan 25 2007, 10:51 PM

Well, I have a challenge for all you experts and nay sayers.

There are way too many sammy sucks, adept sucks, mystic adepts suck, etc... threads.
Magic is broken cause it is uncapped, etc...
Bioware is broken cause....

So, let's see what people can build with a large amount of karma and nuyen.
Here is the set-up
400 build points, as normal
No contacts needed (too many ways of getting contacts, some cost karma, others don't).
No starting gear (assume it was used up over the chars career).
Then add in 2000 karma and 4 million nuyen
No limitations on availability.

So, let's see these broken adepts, sammies, etc..

Hmm, would be nice if people could post a sammy and an adept, so that others can compare, to see how broken they would be compared to each other.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 25 2007, 11:02 PM

...the KK5.0-2000X project R&D team has just been assembled.

BTW, Positive & Negative Qualities?

Posted by: Mistwalker Jan 25 2007, 11:09 PM

sure, qualities allowed, as per the rules

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 25 2007, 11:29 PM

I think I just had a Munchgasim.

Posted by: Butterblume Jan 25 2007, 11:40 PM

Posted by: Serbitar Jan 25 2007, 11:47 PM

I gave the challenge once to build a SAM with 10 million Nuyen. Some kind of Super Bodyguard.

Bottom line was that most of the time there is not enough cyberware to buy with the money, even if it is all delta.

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 26 2007, 12:24 AM

This time, it's 4 million, though.

Mage done by tomorrow.

Posted by: Roni Jan 26 2007, 12:47 AM

2000 karma, 4 million AND the origional 400 build points?! What's this all about... you could get a character to do anything with that kind of stuff...

Posted by: Demerzel Jan 26 2007, 12:49 AM

It's about the other thread about if adepts suck. The point of the exercise is probably to show how in that extreme of situations the best will all be awakened.

Posted by: Grinder Jan 26 2007, 12:50 AM

Posted by: Demerzel Jan 26 2007, 12:55 AM

As an excercise the otherday I looked at what I would put in my own personal combat monster if money were no object. I didn't think to compute a price, since money was no object. =P

Posted by: Roni Jan 26 2007, 12:55 AM

Posted by: Grinder Jan 26 2007, 01:01 AM

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 26 2007, 01:01 AM

Posted by: Roni Jan 26 2007, 01:07 AM

Posted by: Grinder Jan 26 2007, 01:17 AM

Posted by: Kil2k Jan 26 2007, 01:58 AM

Street Sam:

Race: Ork

Body 9 (10)
Agility 7 (10)
Reaction 5 (9)
Strenght 8 (12)
Charisma 5 (7)
Intuition 6
Logic 5 (7)
Willpower 6

Edge: 6
Initiative: 15+4D6
Essence: 0,26

Positive Qualities:
Quick Healer
Aptitude: Firearms
Exeptional Attribute: Agility

Negative Qualities:
Uncouth
(Removed 15 BP negative Quality)

Skills:
Longarms 7 (8)
(Sniper Rifles)
Automatics 7 (8)
(Assault Rifles)
Pistols 7 (8)
(Hold-Outs)
Blades 6
(Cyber Implant Blades)
Perception 6
(Visual)
Pilot Ground Craft 6
(Bike)
Dodge 6
(Ranged Combat)
Unarmed Combat 6
(Parrying)
Escape Artist 6
Parachuting 6
Diving 6
Stealth Skill Group 6
Athletics Skill Group 6 (11)
Biotech Skill Group 6
Outdoors Skill Group 6
Intimidation 6
(Physical)
Influence Skill Group 6
+many Activesofts Rating 4 from Skillwires Cyberware


Bioware:
Synaptic Booster III (Betaware)
Reflex Recorder: Firearms (Betaware)
Reflex Recorder: Athletics (Betaware)
Pain Editor (Betaware)
Suprathyroid Gland (Betaware)
Platelet Factories (Betaware)
Muscle Toner II (Betaware)
Muscle Augmentation III (Betaware)
Enhanced Articulation (Betaware)
Synthacardium III (Betaware)
Sleep Regulator (Betaware)
Adrenaline Pump III (Betaware)
Tailored Pheromones II (Betaware)
Cerebral Booster II (Deltaware)

Cyberware :
Cybereyes III (Deltaware)
+Flare Compensation
+Low-Light Vision
+Thermographic Vision
+Vision Enhancement II
+Smartlink
+Vision Magnification
+Protective Covers
Cyberears I (Deltaware)
+Damper
+Audio Enhancement III
Titanium Bone Lacing (Deltaware)
Skillwires V (Deltaware)
Datajack (Deltaware)
Internal Air Tank (Deltaware)
Dermal Plating III (Deltaware)
Spore (Deltaware)

Money used : 3,4335 Million Nuyen + Activesofts
Karma used : 1518

---------------
Adept :

Race: Elf

Body 6
Agility 8
Reaction 6 (9)
Strenght 6
Charisma 8
Intuition 6
Logic 6
Willpower 6

Edge: 6
Initiative: 15 + 4D6
Essence: 6,0
Magic: 24

Initation Grade : 18
Metamagics : Everything usefull

Positive Qualities:
Adept
Aptitude: Firearms
Exeptional Attribute: Agility

Negative Qualities:
Sensible System
Criminal SIN

Skills:
Automatics 7 (10)
(Assault Rifles)
Longarms 7 (10)
(Sniper Rifles)
Perception 6 (12)
(Visual)
Dodge 6
(Ranged Combat)
Unarmed Combat 4
(Parrying)
Pilot Ground Craft 4
(Bike)
Etiquette 4
(Street)
Leadership 6 (9)
Infiltration 6 (9)
Disguise 6 (9)
First Aid 3
Athletics Skill Group 5



Adept Powers:
Increased Reflexes III
Improved Senses (Low-Light Vision; Thermographic Vision; Sound Dampening; Improved Scent)
Astral Perception
Boost Attribute: Agility
Boost Attribute: Strenght
Boost Attribute: Body
Combat Sense II
Kinesics II
Mystic Armor IV
Pain Resistance IV
Enhanced Perception VI
Traceless Walk
Sustenance
Quick Draw
Motion Sense
Gliding
Commanding Voice
Improved Ability: Automatics III
Improved Ability: Longarms III
Improved Ability: Leadership III
Improved Ability: Infiltration III
Improved Ability: Disguise III

Karma used: 2000
Money used: 0 Nuyen

Cyber-/Bioware:
If its allowed he uses Muscle Toner IV (Deltaware), Pain Editor (Deltaware), Skillwires V (Deltaware); Datajack (Deltaware) and Platelet Factories (Deltaware).
Pain Resistance IV is useless then -> erase.

Posted by: Teulisch Jan 26 2007, 02:15 AM

karma is very valuable stuff... using karma to have stats hit the max is always fun.

16 times regular starting wealth... removing availibility and rating restrictions... thats a lot of ware. but with delta, its only 1.6 times as much ware.

Deltaware: Datajack, cybereyes(r4, 13/16), Cyberears(r3, 12/12), control rig, ultrasound sensor, olfactory booster, skillwires 5, for a total of 1.5 essence of deltaware, or 0.75 essence after bioware. only 557,500!

Bioware (5.49 essence limit)- bone density 4, muscle augment 4, muscle toner 4, orthoskin 3, platelet factories, cerebral booster 3, synaptic booster 3 (base essence of 5.85 standard). with beta-grade bioware (2.1M), essence left is 1.155 (1.54)

Now, our sam has +4 to strength and agility (maxed from 5 base for humans), +3 react, +3 logic, +3/+3 armor and +4 dice to soak damage. the only ware that would need a permit would be the smartlink.

this leaves 1,342,500 for other equipment and/or wares. with over a point of essence to play withm thats not too bad! dont forget to buy software for the skill wires- agility of 5(9) is wonderfull when you can plug+play skill 4 for 13 dice.

Now to make people annoyed- make the above character a mage. 1 magic left. plus initiation. karma-sink like crazy, but you can see the fun there. personaly i would keep em mundane and grab more ware, but the option is there. on the otehr hand, you could take 'sensitive system' and writeup a wonderfull background of his medical history with ware. Or a technomancer is possible, with that extra resonance to stay functioning.

you could get more performance by fine-tuning costs and grade, but the above is the fast and dirty optimization. some things are a essence vs karma tradeoff (like the 4th point of agility from ware).

Personaly, i would go with an ork. stats of 8(12*) B, 5(9) A, 5(8 ) R, 7(11) S, 1 C, 1 I, 4(8 )L, 3 W before karma... easy to buy up the low stats with karma. (6+9+12+15= 42 for a 5 initive, thus 13 initive)

Posted by: celegar Jan 26 2007, 02:16 AM

Posted by: Kil2k Jan 26 2007, 02:24 AM

@celegar
Quoting the whole posting ?

Well, i did what the thread was about.

Posted by: cetiah Jan 26 2007, 02:34 AM

Posted by: Thain Jan 26 2007, 04:33 AM

Okay, I buy a Permanent Luxury Lifestyle and retire.

Posted by: BishopMcQ Jan 26 2007, 05:18 AM

You can buy a spare in case your enemies trash the first one.

Posted by: Mistwalker Jan 26 2007, 06:10 AM

Posted by: Mistwalker Jan 26 2007, 06:21 AM

Posted by: Cheops Jan 26 2007, 07:53 AM

I tried doing this tonight. Here's what I found:

Street sam was generally good at everything. High mental and maxed phsyical stats. All skill groups except medical and survival at 6. Most non-group skills at 6 (didn't bother with Heavy Weapons). Basically the Sam ends up being good at everything.

Adept: physical stats weren't as high as sam. However, could end up being much better at several specialties than street sam. As opposed to being max in everything the adept ends up being super-metahuman in about 4 categories. Equal hacking in either case unless adept specializes.

Mystic Adept: this is about the only thing that makes adepts worse than street sams at this level. Of course, worse is relative. Because they can now cast spells and summon spirits as a Magic 6 mage plus have at least 9 more Magic/Power points to spend. Brutal.

Posted by: Kil2k Jan 26 2007, 10:03 AM

@cetiah
Thank you , thank you *the crowd quiets down, slowly*.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jan 26 2007, 10:43 AM

Well my first impression the the best character would be an elven cyber adept who started with exceptional agility.

Final stat line looks like:

BOD 7
AGI 12
REA 9
STR 9
CHA 8
INT 6
LOG 9
WIL 6

Cyberware (2 essence, 3,850,000 Y)

synaptic -3
super thyroid
muscle aug -2
muscle toner -3
cerebral booster -3
reflex recorder (firearms group)

Assuming 10 magic, you get
kinestics 6
improved ability-3 in hacking group + data search
Combat sense 6
And have 1 pp left over for something (maybe attrib boost-1 is each physical stat?)

You have 15 dice in passive defense
you have 20 dice in all social skills
you have 15 dice in hacking
you shoot things with 19 dice

Posted by: Kesslan Jan 26 2007, 11:12 AM

Hmm I'll have to work up that adept assassin Idea I've played with under this. It's pretty good without a lick of cyber. And with 2k Karma I could initate enough times to pick up some really handy additional abilities.

Posted by: Serbitar Jan 26 2007, 11:48 AM

BTW: If you get 3 Karma per playing night and play every week, it takes you 12 years to get 2000 Karma. As I seaid before. Everything beyond 300 Karma (realistic 2-3 years) is never going to happen.

Posted by: Thanee Jan 26 2007, 12:41 PM

Yeah, a more realistic approach would be 300 Karma and 1 Mio ¥ after the 400 BP (spent as desired).

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 26 2007, 01:37 PM

Ugh. I hate my life. I'll try and get something cooked up sooner or later. I'm sorry I've been taking so long, but I promise you, what I come up with will rock your socks.

Posted by: Mistwalker Jan 26 2007, 02:37 PM

Well, I used 5 karma per session, so a little less than 8 years.

The whole reason for this exercise is to see if the argument of adept is broken because of uncapped magic can be laid to rest.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 26 2007, 04:00 PM

...spent about 2 1/2 hours last night, got to about 430 karma & called it quits. The tough part for an adept is where to spend all the . Yeah you can take Permanent High Lifestyle for 1M but I am hard pressed to spend the remaining 3m. A Force 10 Weapon Focus that's only 100K. Armour, that's chump change. You can blow it on a fancy car like a Mitsubishi Nightsky & the like but pure Adepts really do not need as much as they need Karma.

I like Thanee's idea better, 300 Karma and 1M (which is about where the original KK ended up in SR3). That is more of a challenge. Time for the KK5.0 R&D team to retool.

Posted by: Brahm Jan 26 2007, 04:27 PM

It's really easy to spend that money. Synaptic Boosters 3, Delta. 2.4 million, .75 essense. Control Rig, Delta, 100,000 .25 essense. DJ, Delta, .05 Essense. Leaves you with room for, say, a Commlink w/Hotsim, Delta, .2 Essense, 70,000+commlink upgrades. Total Essense loss, 1.00. Cost approximately 2.7 million.

The remaining blow on hot programs, fast drones, and morally questionable joygirls.

Posted by: Demerzel Jan 26 2007, 04:51 PM

Posted by: Mistwalker Jan 26 2007, 05:28 PM

Shakes his head

You don't have to spend all the NuYen, you can bank some of it, or blow the balance on partying.

The Karma was mostly for Adepts, with the NuYen mostly for Sammies and both for the cybered adepts.

Posted by: Jaid Jan 26 2007, 05:31 PM

Posted by: knasser Jan 26 2007, 08:29 PM

Noticed this thread and thought I'd have a go at the Munchkin Adept. My personal opinion is that Adept and Samurai are about balanced, with the sam's having perhaps a small edge. But I don't fancy many characters' chances against this adept. I think I broke Shadowrun.

Posted by: Jaid Jan 26 2007, 08:44 PM

he needs a bow and arrow. or maybe just those throwing abilities.

Posted by: Mistwalker Jan 26 2007, 09:03 PM

Hmm, well you did break the rules in the amount of BP spent on getting positive qualities.

How do you figure he can move 50 meters? He is still limited to normal movement, regardless of how many initiative passes he has.

Posted by: Demerzel Jan 26 2007, 09:05 PM

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 26 2007, 09:07 PM

Posted by: Jaid Jan 26 2007, 09:08 PM

Posted by: Konsaki Jan 26 2007, 09:10 PM

Elf
Charisma - 9
Willpower - 6

Magician
Focused Concentration 2
Exceptional Charisma
Exceptional Spellcasting

Spellcasting (Manipulation) - 7/9

Levitate

Magic - 25
Initiate - 25

Power focus R20
Sellcasting focus R5

Levitate

Cast Levitate on target at F20 for 11S drain, soak with 17+25+5=47 dice.
Spellcasting roll of 25+9+20 = 54 dice = 18 avg hits

Levitate target directly up at Force(20)*hits(18) meters per round = 360mpr = 130meters per second.
Hold for 1 second and drop target. rinse and repeat. If target has levitate also, perform action in reverse by dropping them onto the ground at 130mps or continue upward until they suffocate.

Overcast at F40 for 21P drain to move target at 720msr or 260mps.
Average drain soak is 16 dice.

Note: speed of sound at sea level = 340.29 m / s

Posted by: Demerzel Jan 26 2007, 09:13 PM

Posted by: Butterblume Jan 26 2007, 09:14 PM

Running is strength based, though. So your troll can get a few more dice by maxing strength, and adding the specialization 'sprinting'.

Posted by: Konsaki Jan 26 2007, 09:15 PM

Posted by: Jaid Jan 26 2007, 09:29 PM

i thought this was adept as compared to street sam. where do magicians enter the picture?

Posted by: Konsaki Jan 26 2007, 09:32 PM

Fine, replace Magician with Mystic Adept. Same difference really.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 26 2007, 10:52 PM

Weird. OK, for a challenge like this, I think it only fair to abuse the Latent Awakening trait for all characters. Why? Because when it goes off you start with a Magic of 1 regardless of current Essence. This means that you can purchase as much cyberware as you feel like, and then you purchase your Awakening and then Essence Loss costs you maximum Magic and not permanent Magic.

So sure, by the standards of this contest, there's essentially no reason to not be a Shamahackerai, so let's go to it!

First: Late Blooming Ork Witch

• Skills are too expensive.
• The Karma system is extremely abusable, and totally unnecessary.
• The Latent Awakening Trait doesn't do the thing that it is supposed to do, like at all.

Posted by: Butterblume Jan 26 2007, 11:02 PM

I started with a mundane infiltrator. I used one I recently played, with slight modifications:
i) lowered edge to two to get more qualities
ii) redistributed some skill points to follow RAW (my GM allowed to raise skills out of skillgroups during chargen)

Not perfect, since I don't want to think to much:

Posted by: Konsaki Jan 26 2007, 11:03 PM

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 26 2007, 11:53 PM

Okay, I'm done. Here she is. She's not really a Sammy, and she's definately not an Adept, but she's a good enough Sammie.

She's a better drone rigger/pilot, which is what I originally intended to make of her. Then I realized that I had no real resources for mad drone activity, like I would've had in SR3 thanks to Rigger 3, and unless I was willing to spend every last on a tricked-out GMC Banshee, I coulden't even get her a good combat vehicle.

So I did something else. She's a great hacker, great rigger, great sammie, but what she's best at is Face. She knows people. She knows every frigging body in the Sixth World almost. She courts Presidents and senators, CEOs and Great Dragons. She moves in many circles, from the streets of Seattle to the Oval Office to Congress to Megacorporate enclaves. She flirts with the Matrix, and it loves her back. She drops in to her favorite nightclub and buys her old friends the beat cop and the Chief Medical Examiner drinks, and she might fly out to Bejing on the next red-eye Semibalistic to attend the dedication of a new Wuxing building.


She's a combat monster, but she certainly can't compete with the likes of a tricked Adept. Nevertheless, nobody but nobody would touch her if they knew who she was. And if she's really, truely desperate, she can place the right calls and have some very serious backup bail her ass out of trouble. (Not, you know, that calling people like Damian Knight on an emergency basis is a good thing - you'll owe him a major favor later. But it beats dieing.)

So, here she is. Enjoy.

Posted by: knasser Jan 26 2007, 11:54 PM

Posted by: Butterblume Jan 27 2007, 12:04 AM

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 27 2007, 12:13 AM

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 27 2007, 12:15 AM

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 27 2007, 12:21 AM

Frank's hit it on the head, with one additional caveat in my case.

My Super-Face cannot spend either Karma or Nuyen on Contacts - she can spend Build Points on them. So it becomes a case of resources available only through one method - and since those resources are vital to the character, it was efficient to maximize the amount of that resource I could buy with that character's allotment of that resources.

Butterblume: You're just jealous that your Riggerdeckaurai dosen't know Nadijah Daviar and Damian Knight, and mine does.

Posted by: Butterblume Jan 27 2007, 12:23 AM

Oh, I appreciate the attempt, and applaud your idea to get a few contacts .

But the karma was supposed to be earned from weekly runs rather than simply materialize. Of course, It doesn't make that much of a difference anyhow, in terms of spent karma.
(It does if you only have a few score to a few hundred karma)

Edit:

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 27 2007, 12:29 AM

Posted by: Demerzel Jan 27 2007, 12:37 AM

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 27 2007, 12:45 AM

Posted by: Demerzel Jan 27 2007, 12:54 AM

The point isn't that you don't need them it's that you don't need to pay for them. Someone with Charisma 8 and Influence Group capped, plus all the appropriate other knowlege skills who has earned 2000 Karma, will just know those people.

Take all those build points and spend them, keep the contacts.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 27 2007, 12:58 AM