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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Pg 239, SR3 - Credsticks

Posted by: Nindaru Oct 30 2003, 05:37 PM

If I spend 120,000 dollars having a Rating 12 Ebony credstick fabricated, is that the cost of the fabrication, or do I now have a credit card with a 120,000¥ limit? I am thinking the accounts have no cash and the ¥ spent was for creation. Am I wrong?

Reason: A player in my game bought 4 or 5 of them so that they could keep their initial starting cash last game. I had not said anything about it, and it never came up in game (she never bought anything).

I plan on just staying quiet about it until she attempts to purchase something with one. Then she will promptly get an NSF (non-sufficient funds) code.

What do you think? Give her the NSF code or pull her aside and explain how they really work (if my guess is correct)?

Posted by: BitBasher Oct 30 2003, 05:44 PM

QUOTE

Neither. You have a false identity with a good enough banking reputation that you can perform a single transaction up to 120,000

. You still have to put that much on the stick to be able to do it. The cash does not come free.

QUOTE

I plan on just staying quiet about it until she attempts to purchase something with one. Then she will promptly get an NSF (non-sufficient funds) code.

Right, because she has a really nice ID with no cash on it.

QUOTE

What do you think? Give her the NSF code or pull her aside and explain how they really work (if my guess is correct)?

pull her aside, I think it's pretty damn wrong to do that when realistically the character should have definitely known that, but the player did not. It's the GM's responsibility to bridge that gap.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 30 2003, 05:47 PM

What BitBasher said. There's absolutely no reason to not tell her unless you are out-of-game deliberately trying to be mean.

~J

Posted by: Nindaru Oct 30 2003, 05:50 PM

Bit, she is new to SR. It was her first game. I was stunned because I had not taken the time to look over the rules on that before. That's what I get for plugging her into NSRCG unsupervised.

I'll pull her aside and ask her if she wants to redistribute her money or stick with the empty but almost fool-proof forged credsticks. =)

Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 30 2003, 05:52 PM

Actually, I believe accounts aren't settled instantly. Check out SSG for more info.

Posted by: Nindaru Oct 30 2003, 05:53 PM

SSG?

Posted by: Tanka Oct 30 2003, 05:56 PM

Sprawl Survival Guide, methinks.

Posted by: Nindaru Oct 30 2003, 05:56 PM

And another thought...

On an Opposed Test pitting my credstick against a credstick reader, it is rating = dice vs. rating = dice, TN4, right?

Posted by: Tanka Oct 30 2003, 05:59 PM

On Opposed Tests, there are no TNs, other than what the highest roll was for the other one.

I think it would be the credstick making the roll, then the reader making the roll against it, using the credstick's highest roll as its TN.

Posted by: Athenor Oct 30 2003, 06:00 PM

See why I walk players through their first few chars? Heck, to this moment I don't trust NSRCG.

The Sprawl Survival Guide has a whole section on credsticks, as well as the electronic money format in general. In fact, I've been ask the credstick thread if they have read it yet, because a TON of questions are answered in there.

But ya.. the spent on a credstick of a certain rating is just to buy the forgery and credit line limit -- you don't get the money. A "true" credstick will not even have a rating (it will automatically succeed), but you are leaving a strong paper trail then. So basically, she didn't get anything out of the deal..

BTW, I'd recommend using the rule of 6/8 with credsticks, to avoid this -- no higher than rating 6, availability 8 on any starting equipment or spells.

Athenor

Posted by: Nindaru Oct 30 2003, 06:02 PM

QUOTE (tanka)

So, lets take a credstick with a rating of 12 vs. a credstick reader with a rating of 6.

One side rolls 12 dice at a TN6.
The other side rolls 6 dice at a TN12.

Is this right?

Posted by: Tanka Oct 30 2003, 06:05 PM

No. Not right. Let's say this:

Credstick (12) rolls: 2, 5, 5, 10, 1, 5, 8, 5, 5, 5, 4, 2
Reader (6) rolls: 4, 5, 4, 2, 10, 7

Reader had a TN of 10, due to Credstick's highest roll being 10. Reader barely makes it by getting one success. Credstick has no TN, is just rolling to see what the reader has to roll to pass the test.

Posted by: Nindaru Oct 30 2003, 06:07 PM

QUOTE (Athenor)

BTW, I'd recommend using the rule of 6/8 with credsticks, to avoid this -- no higher than rating 6, availability 8 on any starting equipment or spells.

Athenor

Ath, I did, kinda. Now that I look over her character sheet, her sticks are rating 8, which has an availability of 8. NSRCG only accounts for Availability, not Rating.

Also, when I plugged her into the program, I did it over the phone. I was late to a game that was supposed to someone elses D&D game that night. (We alternate.) Plans changed and I ended up running SR. I asked the other players to help her with creation and she, and her husband, got plugged into NSRCG.

Oh well. It was a lesson. Won't happen again.

Posted by: Backgammon Oct 30 2003, 06:09 PM

That is correct. Whomever achieves more successes wins.
[edit] You're wrong tanka. He had it right the first time. [/edit]

And a note on ID verification: verifying IDs is very complicated, and the machinery and rights to do so expensive. So most shops will only have rating 1 or 2 verifiers. Rating 3-4-5 are for uncommon, high security transactions. 5-6-7+ are mostly banking, federal, or megacorporate issues. So at char gen, a Rating 6 SIN is usually plenty, even overkill a bit.

Well, it depends on the GM I guess, but that's how I see it

Posted by: Nindaru Oct 30 2003, 06:09 PM

QUOTE (tanka @ Oct 30 2003, 01:05 PM)

Tanka, according to SR3, pg 39: It specifically lists the opponents relevant attribute as being the TN, not the highest roll.

Although, using the highest roll adds a little dynamic to it... Hmmm...

Posted by: Tanka Oct 30 2003, 06:13 PM

Hm. Yeah, that's right, we just made it a House Rule.

So it is TN12 (reader) vs TN6 (credstick). Whoever gets more successes wins the match.

I think it's more fun my way. ;p

I've seen a "Stealth Sammie" roll his Stealth. Got an insane number (In the 20s, IIRC.), only to have the NPC get something even more insane (30s, I think.) than that.

"What?!? He got higher than me! No!"

Said Stealth Sammie was promptly exploded with a Fireball spell. ;p

Posted by: Athenor Oct 30 2003, 06:14 PM

Heck, the actual -RULES- for cyberdeck vs. reader support Nidaru.

What you are thinking of is an open vs. success test... The best example of which is Stealth...

Person rolls stealth dice; the highest single dice they achieve becomes the viewer's TN on a perception test... so you slide from open test into a standard success test... These kinds of tests are rare...

Just think of the credstick vs. reader as a Matrix-style test, as all the ACIFS tests in the Matrix are opposed tests...

Athenor

Posted by: Tanka Oct 30 2003, 06:16 PM

Ah, hm. Fair enough. Will keep that in mind for when any of my characters happen to need to break into a facility using the oh-so-wonderful MagLock passkey. ;p

Posted by: Backgammon Oct 30 2003, 06:16 PM

You're thinking of an Open test, tanka. That is where each player rolls his dices, and highest one wins. SINs are Opposed tests.

Posted by: BitBasher Oct 30 2003, 06:16 PM

Opposed tests are based on the opponent's opposing attribute or rating.

If a rating 10 credstick goes against a rating 4 reader, the rating 4 reader rolls 4 dice against a tn of 10 (the rating of the opposing device) while the credstick rating 10 rolls 10 dice against a tn of 4 (the rating of the opposing device).

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 30 2003, 06:32 PM

God, I hate NSRCG.
No offense, McMackie, it's a wonderful little program, my problem isn't so much with it as with the way it's used. Too many times it's used to replace detailed knowledge of the rules, and too many people seem to shove a copy at newbies and say "here, have fun."
Ah, the crazy situations that can result from that...

</rant>

~J

Posted by: Tanka Oct 30 2003, 06:35 PM

Nothing beats sitting down with all of your books (At least a dozen to make people look at you funny.), opening different ones a lot, and some only a couple of times, marking spots to cross-check, then writing sutff down on a sheet of paper. Wonderful, isn't it?

Oh, and I'm all for going that method. Main reason because I'm an SR2 geek and NSRCG doesn't translate SR2 very well, even if you throw the core book in there, it still uses SR3's priority system and skills.

Posted by: OurTeam Oct 30 2003, 07:25 PM

QUOTE (BitBasher)

You have a false identity with a good enough banking reputation that you can perform a single transaction up to 120,000

Actually, the amount spent to purchase the false ID is not the limit for how big a transaction the stick can handle. A Gold credstick can handle up to 200,000

, Platinum can handle 1,000,000

, while Ebony is unlimited.

As an extra note, the higher the "color", the harder it is to fool the biometric check. Gold credsticks use a voiceprint check, Platinum includes a retinal scan, Ebony checks the DNA of the user before releasing funds.

Also check SR3 p. 239 "Using a Forged Credstick" for what occurs when the Credstick Reader has more successes than the forged ID. The runner still has a chance.

Posted by: sidekick Oct 30 2003, 09:53 PM

Well one of the things a lot of people don't get is that a Credstick is more an identiyt then it is a credit card. It's your drivers license, SSN card, passport, and credit card rolled into one. when a person uses a credstick, it's like swiping a debit card, you give an authorized user the right to transfer some accounts from you to them. That's why there is thumbprint, retinal, and DNA and all that wacky check stuff there, to verify who that the person authorizing the transfer is the person who has the right to do so.

Now certified credsticks are different. From what I can understand, they are like swiss bank accounts, just numbered no identity markers. You pop money in a certified credstick and you may spend it without impunity of tracing (well, within in limits). But the downside to this is that anyone can do that, it requires none of the identity verifiers that Credsticks require. Because of this, it can't be used as ID.

Keep in mind that in the SR universe that almost anyone who isn't a runner has their Credstick on them at all times. They might also have a certified, but often times not.

I actually got a quick question. Do credstick verifiers have the capability to test all the levels of verification? Ie, does the cred verifier down at the local Stuffer Shack have the ability to perform retinal and DNA checks? Or do most low class institutions only have the passcode option? If they do only have the passcode option, what happens if someone who is slumming tries to pay with their Gold Credstick?

Posted by: Backgammon Oct 30 2003, 10:00 PM

There are 2 verifications: the owner of the credstick must approve the transaction being done. This is where the credstick color come in. A Platinum crdstick owner must press his hand around the stick so that his DNA is verified, whereas a normal credstick owner must enter his passcode. Or something like that.

Once the owner has agreed to the transaction by entering the proper passcode or whatever, the cashier then verifies that a valid credstick is being used in this transaction. This is the SIN check.

So "If they do only have the passcode option, what happens if someone who is slumming tries to pay with their Gold Credstick? " It doesn't matter. They're not related. The DNA verification is credstick-side, while the SIN check is verifier-side.

Posted by: AnotherFreakBoy Oct 31 2003, 12:21 AM

My take is that a forged credstick is tailored to the person who bought it, so they will pass the retinal, DNA, and so on scans.

These checks would prevent you from using a stolen credstick, the check made by the reader is to stop you from using a forged credstick.