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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Situational Incompetance
Posted by: NightmareX Jan 27 2007, 09:41 AM
Since SR4 came out and the Car and Bike skills got morphed into Pilot Ground Craft, I've had an issue - how to similate a character that is Evil Kinevel with a bike, but never learned how to drive a car (to the point that driving a stick is an exercise in grinding gears down to nothing). An isolated and small problem, but still annoying.
In the http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=16371 though, SLJames in his usual charming fashion 
gave me an idea with the following comment:
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| Such innovation that the few (very few) mages who saw magic as objectively formulaic with laws (i.e., they were using the objective SR rules) managed to not only convince others within the Hermetic tradition, but convinced every magician in the world in a relatively short time that they were right. Since magicians in SR have never been unyieldingly dogmatic about their tradition, or paradigm, or religious-magical system ever. |
He has a point - everyone converting to the new UMT based mechanic occured ridiculously fast, although the Matrix and SOTA pressure kinda mitigates that concern in my mind. However, there would still be hold outs - people too stubborn or assured of the perfection of their way of doing things that they didn't change. Holdout shaman/wu jen can easily be simulated by just not giving them the Binding skill or taking Incompetance (Binding). Hold out mages though - while few I would think - would be a problem. Soooo......
Situational Incompetence
Cost: 5 bp
A character with this negative quality is impaired in his ability to use a certain Active skill he or she possesses (chosen when this quality is taken) for some reason. The reasoning behind this, and the exact limitations are chosen by the player (subject to the gamemaster’s approval) but should generally preclude the character from using the skill to it’s full effectiveness or from using the majority of the skill’s applications as defined by it’s specializations. Reasons for such limitation can ranged from physical inadequacy, lack of knowledge or training, psychological limitation, or simply restriction due to belief, as the following examples show:
- Demolitions (Improvised Explosives only) – because the character is self taught
- Intimidation (Mental only) – because the character is physically unassuming
- Pilot Ground Craft (Bike only) – because the character never learned to drive anything else
- Summoning (Can only summon as part of a Binding ritual) – because the character is a Hermetic mage who learned his Conjuring skills prior to the popularity of UMT and refuses to modify his magical practice
Situational Incompetence may not be applied to Language or Knowledge skills. In cases where the character is limited to a single specialization, he or she is treated as having a skill level of “unaware” for that particular skill and may not default in order to use any other specializations of said skill. Situational Incompetence may be purchased more than once, choosing a separate skill each time.
Thoughts?
Posted by: Kesslan Jan 27 2007, 09:45 AM
That might work. It certainly sounds reasonable enough to me.
Posted by: bibliophile20 Jan 27 2007, 10:44 AM
I like it; C&Ped to my Additional Qualities file--that is, if you don't mind.
Posted by: NightmareX Jan 27 2007, 12:48 PM
Feel free - if I wanted to keep it to myself, I wouldn't post it
Posted by: cetiah Jan 27 2007, 05:17 PM
So this is 5 BP per skill, right?
Could you specialize in something you had this limitation in?
So I have Pilot Ground Craft at 3, for 12 BP.
I can take this limitation to get Pilot Ground Craft (Bike) at 3 for 7 BP. Assuming I put this back into Bike skill, I would have Pilot Ground Craft (Bike) 4 for a total cost of 11 BP and be unable to use Pilot Ground Craft for anything else.
Whereas if I specialize instead, then I could get Pilot Ground Craft (Bike) at 5 for 14 BP, or to make the comparison with the limitation, I could reduce my Pilot Ground Craft (Bike), freeing up 4 BP. So altogether, I would have Pilot Ground Craft (Bike) 4 for a total cost of 10 BP and still be able to use Pilot Ground Craft 2 for other things.
Did I miss anything?
Posted by: Glyph Jan 27 2007, 08:47 PM
I'm kind of two minds about that - on the one hand, specialization is a bit redundant when the specialization is the only part of the skill that you can use at all. But on the other hand, wouldn't someone using a limited version of a skill tend to be better at it than someone using the broader skill? So even though it seems a bit cheesy at first glance, I think that I would allow specialization.
I also think 5 BP is about right. Some might complain that it gives you as many points as taking Incompetence, which doesn't allow you to use the skill at all. But someone taking this flaw will be buying, and using, that limited skill, too. So I think it's balanced.
Posted by: cetiah Jan 27 2007, 08:50 PM
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| I'm kind of two minds about that - on the one hand, specialization is a bit redundant when the specialization is the only part of the skill that you can use at all. But on the other hand, wouldn't someone using a limited version of a skill tend to be better at it than someone using the broader skill? So even though it seems a bit cheesy at first glance, I think that I would allow specialization. I also think 5 BP is about right. Some might complain that it gives you as many points as taking Incompetence, which doesn't allow you to use the skill at all. But someone taking this flaw will be buying, and using, that limited skill, too. So I think it's balanced. |
Even though, as I demonstrated, taking the limitation actually costs you an extra BP?
Posted by: Teulisch Jan 27 2007, 09:48 PM
alterantive!
we have a skill modifier, wheras the SKILL costs less (half as much), but you cannot get a specialize bonus (in fact your already limited to a specilization). So, instead of saying skill X at Y points, you get skill (specialization only) at X for [Y/2] points. X must be 3 or more for advancement to buy the FULL skill, you must invest the difference in xp to obtain skill (X-2) with specialization.
So if i have Bikes only at 3, thats 6 points.... or groundcraft 1 (bikes +2), no cost change. If i have bikes only at 6, thats 12 points- or groundcraft 4 (bikes +2) at 18 points, 6 more.
from a mechanics perspective, its not broken. from an RP perspective, it makes sense. It allows for a specilization at 1 or 2 dice, or even getting 6 skill in something cheaply (perhaps outside the usual skillcap limit) without giving too may dice.
flaws dont really work for things like this, because of flaw mechanics in general. you have a finite number of possible flaw points. any flaw limiting a skill like that, will become a 'freebie' to some players, and be abused quickly.
Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 27 2007, 09:54 PM
This was something I noticed about some of the Combat Skills too. Under long arms, if all of your shooting experience is with shotguns, that isn't going to be much help when using a sniper rifle to make a long range shot. By the same token, just because you can use a knife with a six inch blade doesn't mean you will be equally skilled with a sword that has a three foot blade if you haven't also been practicing with one. That this would apply to vehicles also makes sense.
I don't have the books handy right now, but does SR4 have anything like the defaulting tree of previous generations? Those were very helpful and could have solved a lot of this problem.
Posted by: cetiah Jan 27 2007, 09:57 PM
| QUOTE (Thane36425) |
| I don't have the books handy right now, but does SR4 have anything like the defaulting tree of previous generations? Those were very helpful and could have solved a lot of this problem. |
No, skills just default to an attribute.
Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 27 2007, 10:05 PM
| QUOTE (cetiah) | ||
No, skills just default to an attribute. |
OK, thanks.
Posted by: Glyph Jan 28 2007, 05:57 AM
| QUOTE (cetiah) | ||
Even though, as I demonstrated, taking the limitation actually costs you an extra BP? |
I said that I would allow specializations.
Posted by: NightmareX Jan 28 2007, 06:58 AM
| QUOTE (cetiah) |
| So this is 5 BP per skill, right? Could you specialize in something you had this limitation in? |
I was thinking that yes, you could - for the exact reason you said.
Continuing your example:
- Pilot Ground Craft 4 = 16bp
- Pilot Ground Craft (specialization Bike) 2/4 = 10bp
- Pilot Ground Craft (SI Bike only) 4 = 11bp
- Pilot Ground Craft (SI Bike only, specialized) 2/4 = 5bp
Putting the 5bp from Situitational Incompetance into the skill in the latter cases.
Thus, it's kinda an encouragement to specialize, the same way focusing on only one vehicle would eventually mean you'd get real good with driving it (assuming constant practice) as Glyph stated. From a game mechanics end, it looks like a cheesy munchkin move - from a RL perspective it makes perfect sense (I think). The hinderance of course is that you're usless with anything else.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| I also think 5 BP is about right. Some might complain that it gives you as many points as taking Incompetence, which doesn't allow you to use the skill at all. But someone taking this flaw will be buying, and using, that limited skill, too. So I think it's balanced. |
I didn't want to take it higher than 5bp because of the cost of Incompetance (and you really can't get mechanically worse disadvantage wise in this realm than Incompetance). Ideally it would give you less bp than Incompetance, but one can't do that and keep it base 5.
Danka btw.
| QUOTE (cetiah) |
| Even though, as I demonstrated, taking the limitation actually costs you an extra BP? |
That's why it's a negative quality
| QUOTE (Teulisch) |
| we have a skill modifier, wheras the SKILL costs less (half as much), but you cannot get a specialize bonus (in fact your already limited to a specilization). So, instead of saying skill X at Y points, you get skill (specialization only) at X for [Y/2] points. X must be 3 or more for advancement to buy the FULL skill, you must invest the difference in xp to obtain skill (X-2) with specialization. So if i have Bikes only at 3, thats 6 points.... or groundcraft 1 (bikes +2), no cost change. If i have bikes only at 6, thats 12 points- or groundcraft 4 (bikes +2) at 18 points, 6 more. from a mechanics perspective, its not broken. from an RP perspective, it makes sense. It allows for a specilization at 1 or 2 dice, or even getting 6 skill in something cheaply (perhaps outside the usual skillcap limit) without giving too may dice. flaws dont really work for things like this, because of flaw mechanics in general. you have a finite number of possible flaw points. any flaw limiting a skill like that, will become a 'freebie' to some players, and be abused quickly. |
You're right in that it's a good idea and not broken, but unfortunately it seems to be that that delves into the realm of unnessary complication adding a new determinant to bp cost to the system. Plus, how does that translate into karma cost?
While I agree this has the possibility of abuse, that is why I kept it strictly under GM control - the GM can't bitch because he already ok'ed the player's limitation. As for the limits on neg qualities and reaching skill caps faster, those are also valid concerns - which is why I posted this. I don't use skill caps and allow up to 50bp of neg qualities at start, which doesn't make my games a valid test ground for such factors. Dumpshock denizens though I find to be good at ripping apart things to find flaws, which is one of the reasons I love this place
Posted by: Garrowolf Jan 28 2007, 09:36 AM
For magic I took the different magic beliefs and built the tradition from the ground up based on what it did include. I don't use the traditions as they are laid out in the book. You can define all the abilities you have and determine your own limitations as well. If you want to check it out then go to my house rules page at the address below.
For the situational incompatence thing I would just break the skill back up if you as a GM see them as being too different. If it is a player trying to do that I would just say that they should just role play that issue and take a penalty because they don't believe that they can. Now if they couldn't do it because of a fear then give them a fear of driving. I actually know someone with this fear so it wouldn't be a stretch. Otherwise I don't see the point in getting points for the incompetance.
Personally I think that incompetences should cover catagories of skills and not just one. You may be incompetent with all computer skills but not software. You have no mechanical and electrocial aptittude. Like that.
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