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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Running for Dummies

Posted by: ShadowDragon Jan 31 2007, 03:30 AM

I'm going to put this on my campaign website to help out my players, but I wanted to get some feedback from you guys first. If you have any comments or things to add, please reply

1. Always do your legwork. Know who your Johnson is and know who your target is. Do recon in the astral, the matrix, and the physical.

2. Never go into danger without an escape plan. Don’t take unnecessary risks. Don’t get cocky just because you haven’t died yet.

3. The weakest link in any security system is always the metahuman element. Build your plans around exploiting that link.

4. Paranoia will keep you alive. Always check and double check for RFIDs. Use a quality commlink full of necessary programs even if you’re not a hacker. Only trust yourself, your team, and your mother. Expect your Johnson to betray you, and expect contacts to sell you out to Star. Be extra careful not to leave a data trail or leave evidence at a crime.

5. Make an effort to build trust and camaraderie in your team. Not only do they help you make more nuyen, they’ll save your life.

6. Be an expert in one field and contribute your expertise to the team. Be proactive with your contribution and don’t wait to be asked. Everyone should be the leader of the team in their field.

7. Be well rounded. You don’t want to be a liability in combat or negotiations, and the odd skill can come in handy when no one in your team is an expert in that field, or the expert is unable to help.

8. Don’t be afraid to look outside the team for help. If your team is missing a skill set needed for a mission, hire another runner to fill the gap. You can even hire entire groups of runners for distractions.

9. Network with everyone you can. You never know when a new contact can come in handy. The face isn’t the only person who should do this.

10. Enter negotiations with a game plan. Legwork should start before the mission. With enough legwork, sometimes you can even know what the mission is before the Johnson tells you; exploit this to negotiate for more nuyen. Some factors that can increase payment:
- Level of danger (Danger to yourself, your reputation, and your possessions)
- Time constraints (How long do you need to work and how quickly does it need to be done?)
- Team experience and reputation (Have you done work for this Johnson in the past? What does your team have to offer that other runners don’t?)
- Amount of legwork needed (Paying contacts and bribing people can be expensive)
- Stealth requirements (Leaving no trace, no or limited killing)
- Assets needed (IE drones, explosives, bullets, drugs, and contacts)

11. Remember that you’re a professional, and act like it. Don’t be an ass to the Johnson, keep your cool at all times, and protect your reputation at almost any cost. Survival should be the only thing that takes priority over professionalism.

12. If you’re making plenty of nuyen from the Johnson, don’t squeeze out more by looting the ganger’s Streetline Special and Meta Link commlink. Your contacts don't want to waste their time with used junk. But also don’t overlook expensive paydata and gear that can substantially increase your income.

13. If you’re not being paid to kill someone, you’re usually better off not doing it if you can avoid it. You never know when a death can spur on a vendetta from a loved one, and you never know if that ganger is the runaway daughter of a megacorp exec. At the same time, be careful not to leave crucial witnesses.

Posted by: OSUMacbeth Jan 31 2007, 03:47 AM

I'll add one. Don't get cocky just because you're "king of the barrens." Don't think that because gangers run in fear of you that you can toss your weight around wherever. No matter how good your team is, someone out there has a bigger gun. Even the Star outnumbers you two-hundred to one, and most any military team with a little support will likely make mincemeat of you.

Take a lesson from my friend (who was on painkillers at the time.) You cannot walk into a public establishment in broad daylight while surrounded by hackers and attempt to kidnap someone by shoving your TMP in their face and telling them to come with you or die. That character died in a massive shootout as the star surrounded his gang's house, then killed 16 of the 21 gangers inside, including the character.

Another good one: The best way to win a shootout is not to be there.
OSUMacbeth

Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 31 2007, 04:42 AM

I'll add one too. Safehouses. Each team member could have one or they could chip in to split the costs. Have it some place out of the way and unobstrusive. Make the payment trail as hard as possible to to link back to you or any of the other runners. If the smelly stuff hits the fan, you've got a place to run to and (hopefully) hide for a while. As you move up in the shadows, you could even set up retreats farther afield from your usual running grounds liek in CalFree or CAS if you mostly run in Seattle.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 31 2007, 04:50 AM

Make friends in the Barrens. At least avoid making enemies. The Star, the Corps, will not go into the Barrens to get you, unless you REALLY pissed them off. By which I mean, "costs in the millions of "

Posted by: Garrowolf Jan 31 2007, 04:55 AM

I have a question for you. How do you reinforce these rules? I mean what kind of consequences are you actually going to use on them if they don't.

I am sure we all have run into the problem that we know that the plan they have sucks and they are acting like idiots. You don't want to kill them out right because the dead don't learn and it will just piss them off. They want to be the bad ass heroes or at least the focus of the story but they do things that you think are dumb. If you sit there and berate them then they get pissy and leave. You would be metagaming at most points to have an NPC do it too much.

So how do you reinforce common sense? I find that players don't learn what they need to survive in the setting. They learn what they can get away with a certain GM. If they have to learn too much they leave.

People always tell me that they wouldn't do this or that in their games but then I watch them get walked all over by their players. This happened to me several times as well. I had one guy who had no attention span and wanted a new system after each adventure. I felt like a video game machine.

We have some idea of what we want as GMs but then they have some notion of the setting that they believe is the way and the truth because of some novel they read. You try to run what makes sense to you and they tell you no, no, no, no! because it isn't like some stupid movie with a similar plot or some other GM's game where they built their characters around that GM letting them get away with anything.

So how do we enforce common sense (the rarest sense)!?!?!

Posted by: cetiah Jan 31 2007, 05:16 AM

QUOTE (Garrowolf)

So how do you reinforce common sense? I find that players don't learn what they need to survive in the setting. They learn what they can get away with a certain GM. If they have to learn too much they leave.

This is why I felt I needed "Identity" rules with a "heat" attribute... so that there would be actual game consequences to doing stupid stuff, or just generally not paying attention. Players may argue about who should or should not occur based on the dynamics of any given situation, but when they have real numbers to work with, most players are more than happy to adjust.

Also, reward mechanics are useful for encouraging behavior... well, that you want to encourage. I think the Karma system is kind of limited, but there are other rewards, too. Just be sure the players know what they are getting rewarded for and be consistent.

Still, as nice as carrots are, sometimes sticks are damn handy... j/k

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 31 2007, 05:19 AM

Oooooh. An "Identities and Heat" system sounds really, REALLY good. I mean, it's something we've been tinkering with forever, as a roleplayed thing - no reason not to make it a mechanic, so players know exactly how much heat any given identity has on it.....

I may start to tinker on something like that.

Posted by: Garrowolf Jan 31 2007, 05:25 AM

OKay, Good. I like the Heat thing too. What else?

Posted by: ShadowDragon Jan 31 2007, 05:25 AM

These aren't rules Garrowolf, they're tips.

My GM style is to run the world as logically and organically as possible. If the players mess up, the world reacts appropriately. If they act unprofessionally, they make less money and get easier jobs until they prove themselves. If they leave evidence that leads Lonestar to their location, they'll get a rude visit (which happened to two of the PCs, and they very narrowly escaped). If they don't do their legwork and don't have an escape plan, there are likely going to be some PC deaths (which also happened, as you're aware of if you read my thread about the force 12 lightning ball). Likewise, if they play it smart, they're rewarded by the world. NPCs don't always follow these rules either, because like I said, I run the world logically.

Posted by: apollo124 Jan 31 2007, 05:29 AM

Something else to add..

Unless you have absolutely NO other choice, don't kill the cops! Whether it's the Star, KE, or whomever else, nothing says "chase them down, hurt them bad and kill them" like knocking off a cop. Narcoject , stun rounds and flash/bang grenades are reasonably priced and much better than a death warrant from everything in a badge.

Posted by: ShadowDragon Jan 31 2007, 05:30 AM

QUOTE (cetiah)

Err I don't get it. Can you elaborate a bit? Was this discussed in another thread somewhere?

QUOTE

Also, reward mechanics are useful for encouraging behavior... well, that you want to encourage. I think the Karma system is kind of limited, but there are other rewards, too. Just be sure the players know what they are getting rewarded for and be consistent.

I agree. I use notoriety, street cred, and public awareness a lot for this reason. I also like to point out what they earn each point of karma for.

Posted by: Crakkerjakk Jan 31 2007, 05:36 AM

/agree with apollo

The only thing that mobilizes the Star faster than anti-tank weapons is a cop killer.

Posted by: Garrowolf Jan 31 2007, 05:48 AM

okay fair enough

Posted by: apollo124 Jan 31 2007, 05:53 AM

Thanks, Crakkerjakk. Also something else just came to mind.

Do your best to have the right tool for the right job on hand. Sure, you will sometimes have to try to pick the lock with an Ares Predator, but if you have a lockpicking skillsoft and tool kit on hand, things will go a lot smoother. This goes for everyone on the team. To do your job at your best, know the right spells, skills, combat abilities, tech know-how, etc... and have the gear and spirits necessary at the time, when you can.

And building off of Crakkerjakk's comment..

Be aware of the security level of the areas you are going to and traveling through, and make sure what you take won't make you stand out of the crowd. Example...Don't take the assault cannon and heavy machine gun to rob the Stuffer Shack inside the Aztechnology pyramid.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 31 2007, 07:01 AM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon)

11. Remember that you’re a professional, and act like it. Don’t be an ass to the Johnson, keep your cool at all times, and protect your reputation at almost any cost. Survival should be the only thing that takes priority over professionalism.

Right now I am dealing with a couple of characters who tend to be very antagonistic towards the Johnsons who are hiring them. They look to squeeze the poor bloke with their over maxxed social skills (further augmented by spells and 'ware) until his head pops off like a pinata and a bunch of

pours out on the table. It has come to the point I feel need to make every "J" a social adept initiate just to give him or her a fighting chance in a negotiation test.

I would also like to add a "point a." to this:

Also never be an ass to the other NPCs you meet. You never know who they may know. Reputation is power and word gets around if you come off like a total jerk to everyone you meet. You may find it tough to get that next job because the young woman you just insulted was the daughter of an important figure who happens to have a lot of connections both in and outside of the shadows.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 31 2007, 07:17 AM

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)

QUOTE (ShadowDragon)

KK:

Every Johnson has an upper limit of money he's willing (or able!) to spend. If they go beyond that, then he either says "X, and not a

more!" where X is the most he'll spend, or the deal's off.

Generally, a Johnson has three figures: What he'd like to pay the Runners, what he accepts he's likely to pay the Runners, and the vey most the job is worth to him (or the maximum amount he actually can pay, whichever is lower.)

The expected amount is the middle, it's generally 100% of what he budgeted for. His starting offer will be about 75% of that - this is what he'd like to pay them. If they're stupid enough to say yes, the deal is golden. Everyone expects the Runners to bargain up - it's a ritual of the Sprawl. The expectation is that they'll bargain up 1/3rd of what he quotes them - or 25%, to meet the full 100% quota. If they're very canny, he'll reluctantly go up to an extra 25%, or two-thirds more of his original quote. Chances are he simply cannot pay for them, and will say "Look. I know you guys are good stuff, and you obviously believe you're worth more, but that's as high as I'm going. Either you'll have to take the job for that, or I need a new set of assets."

Generally, when their savvy Social skills have forced a Johnson to level with them, most runners will say "Okay. That's fine."

BEWARE THE JOHNSON who agrees to any amount above this! The customary up-front is between 10% for a simple job to 50% for a ridiculously complicated job. If he agrees to any more than two-thirds more than his original quote, he is, 7 for 10, SETTING YOU UP and planning to geek you when the job's done.

On the other hand, depending on relations with this J, including how desperate he is to get the job done, he may be able to throw in some "Goodies". Such as "Look, I just can't go above that. But I might be able to throw in some extras, make them fall off the truck, you know?" Of course, never, ever, ever trust the J - go over the goodie with a fine-toothed comb to pick out all the RFIDs and microbugs and go over it's programming with a microscope, a Hacker, a Technomancer, and a priest.

Generally, you shoulden't push a J this hard. On the other hand, connected Johnsons may be receptive to "You know, this job sounds hard... How about some extra, but I'm not thinking money. A little quid pro quo? I scratch your back, you slap something nice into mine?" This works best if you don't haggle up the J's asking price. Depending on the availability of what you're asking, and how much he likes you, it may be a "No sweat" to "No @^@%ing way!"

IE: You're asking an Ares man for a crate of Predators. Even a Crate of Preds won't sell for much, and if the money he was expecting to give you was worth more than their wholesale value, he'll probably consent. If all you want is a few guns, he'll toss them in and call his starts lucky. Asking a NeoNET man for programs is almost a sure thing - all that costs him is the cost of the datachip. And so forth and so on.

Posted by: Garrowolf Jan 31 2007, 07:23 AM

One way to deal with the runners who manipulate the johnson too much is to have the johnson panic afterwards because he was so intimidated. He decides to change tactics and runs. They only have so much with them so that is the max that the runners get. They stop being shaodwrunners and become thugs. When they do this to to many johnsons and they all run away then they will get the idea. A few runs with no pay will work I think.

Posted by: ShadowDragon Jan 31 2007, 07:32 AM

QUOTE (Garrowolf)

It seems kind of silly to me for the GM to penalize players for making their characters effective. It sends the wrong message. All you need to do is set an upper limit like my brother with the same name suggested

I think the BBB even suggests this.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 31 2007, 07:34 AM

...I've tried these approaches, but when the characters decide to walk, because they didn't get what they wanted, it is kind of a burn. I usually do not have a backup scenario planned due to the fact I have a real life (plus day job) and other interests outside SR.

We only meet every two weeks at best and I usually have to travel across town (by transit) to run/play since my place is too small for hosting a gaming session. A lot of trouble to go through to just pack everything in after say 20-30 min and go home.

Posted by: Leehouse Jan 31 2007, 07:56 AM

Give them the price they want, then start double crossing(or leaving out vital points of information) them every run. They push the johnson around the Johnson isn't going to like it and is going to do something about it, in all likelihood that something will involve lots of ammo, or some other form of punishment

Leaving out information could be that the Johnson can afford to pay them that ammount but due to his budget is unable to get all, or any, information. Then make them work their butts off for that information.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 31 2007, 08:09 AM

..actually, I have one thing I am doing in the scenario I am currently running which relates to my "point a." Boy will they be surprised by the outcome.

Posted by: Slump Jan 31 2007, 10:26 AM

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Jan 31 2007, 02:34 AM)

We only meet every two weeks at best and I usually have to travel across town (by transit) to run/play since my place is too small for hosting a gaming session. A lot of trouble to go through to just pack everything in after say 20-30 min and go home.

That's an easy one to fix. If you have a run all planned out and they walk on that johnson, depending on the amount of pre-meet legwork they did, the next johnson could have the exact same mission (you know, the one you spent a week planning), just with a different facade.

Remember, it's only railroading if they players feel they don't have a choice.

Also, this is why I like having modular mission sections for whatever game I'm running. Indoor Security, Outdoor Security, Matrix Security, Objective, Layout. Mix and match. Having 3 of each catagory gives you have 243 unique combinations. It makes sense that security would be relativly standardized because they would use what works, and by mixing and matching, you get alot of variety without alot of work. Plus, to make longer runs, just have multiple linked objectives either in different facilities (with different layouts and security) and there ya go.

Posted by: toturi Jan 31 2007, 01:35 PM

Information is very important. If you have it, you can do something about it. If you do not, something will be done to you. And in this case, it is literally better to give than to receive.

There are many ways to gather information. Networking with contacts and searching the Matrix are only 2 ways. Astral and physical Perception are other ways of gathering info, these may be better since the information is immediate and fresh. The GM has little to no wiggle room for changing something a PC has seen just a second ago.

Posted by: Garrowolf Jan 31 2007, 03:35 PM

slump, I am very interested in this model of yours. Please tell us more or even better send files of notes. That is a great idea!

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 31 2007, 04:04 PM

QUOTE (Slump)

...and then have them meet up with the team the original johnson hired after they turned it down. Nice Idea.

QUOTE (Slump)

Also, this is why I like having modular mission sections for whatever game I'm running. Indoor Security, Outdoor Security, Matrix Security, Objective, Layout. Mix and match. Having 3 of each catagory gives you have 243 unique combinations. It makes sense that security would be relativly standardized because they would use what works, and by mixing and matching, you get alot of variety without alot of work. Plus, to make longer runs, just have multiple linked objectives either in different facilities (with different layouts and security) and there ya go.

'In the past I would pull out one of the runs from the old "Missions" sourcebook and send the players on a food run smoke break to skim over the adventure. However, I have pretty much exhausted this resource. My runs, particularly in a long campaign, are split up into various sections. If the runners skip by one part, the flow of action still takes place just without their participation. a lot of the time it ends up making their mission even harder, for they missed important clues, didn't make useful NPC contact, or, as in one instance, the NPC they were supposed to be watching was abducted when they bullied their way to on board one another NPCs helicopter to check out a situation in London that was none of their business.

Posted by: Thain Jan 31 2007, 05:17 PM

I wrote this for my group a few years ago, I think its funny still.

[ Spoiler ]

Posted by: sunnyside Jan 31 2007, 06:01 PM

@KK

If you're one of the GMs who doesn't like dealing with people with high social skills in the future just tell your players that. Similarly for hackers or any other special class of skills. It just isn't fair to the player to screw them over because they didn't make a troll cybermage.

Still there are limits to what social skills can do, and there are other ways to reward them. Obviously a Johnson can only pay so much, typically printed adventures will give a limit, and the Johnson will expect their nuyens worth. But a highly social character might also figure out that the Johnson is holding back info/telling half truths etc and may be able to talk some extra info out of them. Additionally, with good RP and character may make the Johnson like them, which is often the point of social skills and extremly usefull. And that's the kind of task you need a social adept for as most Johnsons consider runners to be skum.

Posted by: sunnyside Jan 31 2007, 06:10 PM

@ Garrowulf

On the subject of helping players grow common sense. First use in game NPC interactions and such to tell them about your world. Few GMs run everything the same and even if they did you can't expect your players to read all the sourcebooks and retain everything.

A key example of this is Lone Star. How GMs handle them is all over the place. Sometimes after raising nine kinds of hell the Star will send Barney Fife and Captain Dunksalot after them in their squad cars. Sometimes they've got competent officers, and the odd rotodrone and Condor surveilence miniblimp. And sometimes someone will have read the sourcebook and been inspired to try out that LS modified Harpy LAV with the special "Land Shark" missles they read about.

Also I find how much Hackers can get away with is all over the map.

You have to let them know.

Secondly usually your group will have an uneven level of stupidity. Make sure the other players see how the smartest guy is rewarded for those smarts. At the least they may gravitate toward letting them be the leader, but if you're lucky they'll start playing smarter and make the clever player have to up their game to keep ahead (and many are competitive enough to do so).

Posted by: ShadowDragon Jan 31 2007, 06:58 PM

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)

If the PCs are routinely walking out on the Johnson, then it sounds like you have an out of character problem. This isn't something you should fix in game. Talk to your players. Maybe they want a faster pace of advancement. Ask them why they just walk out, and reiterate your situation to them. Have any of them GM/DMed before? It sounds like they don't appreciate the work you put into this.

Posted by: Slump Feb 1 2007, 12:14 AM

QUOTE (Garrowolf @ Jan 31 2007, 10:35 AM)

slump, I am very interested in this model of yours. Please tell us more or even better send files of notes. That is a great idea!

It's been a long while since I last played Shadowrun, and I can't find my notes right now, but basically, here's how it would look (level of detail and type of threats is really dependant on group and DM, though)

Layout: Warehouse, Research Lab, Factory, X-story office building. Since office buildings will typically have the same layout on every floor, except possibly the first and top floor, a 5-story office building has the same layout as a 100-story office building.

Outdoor Security: Street (whatever the zone rating is for Star response), Corporate Compound (similar to street, but response times are shorter, but you usually have less people to deal with), Wilderness with patrols (roving patrols of corpsec probably with dogs or other critters), Wilderness without patrols (similar to street, but response times are much, much longer).

Indoor Security: Patrolling Drones (with a rigger), Single security guard, Patrolling guard, extensive cameras, extensive alarms, deathtraps (motion sensor guns, ect).

Magical Security: None. We didn't like the magic rules much, so we pretty much ignored the awakened world.

Matrix Security: Color-Rating. I have a program on my calculator that generates random responses based on color and rating, including IC and Agents. I just input how much security tally the decker got and the program tells me the systems response. One can use matrix security to use/disable alarms and cameras, unlock/lock doors, ect.

Objective: Gismo (usually for research or warehouse), Financial Data (usually office or research), Staffing Data (any), Shipping Data (any, but more often for warehouse or research), Extract, Wetwork, Insert (could be data, could be a physical device).

So, without further ado, a Generic Run!

Layout: 4-story office building.

Outdoor Security: Street. 1 Star patrol within 5 minutes, 4 cars within 10 minutes, SWAT within 10 minutes of being called.

Indoor Security: 1 bored corpsec at lobby security desk, halls and elevators have cameras, windows and external/fire doors have alarms, elevators disabled, need to use the security guards key to access.

Magical Security: None.

Matrix Security: Green-4

Objective: Offline storage of financial records.

To create multiple linked objectives to create longer runs, just use the objective from the run as a trigger or recon for the next run.

Example: Steal research data from research facility, Steal shipping data from warehouse, Intercept/Extract Gismo being shipped, Insert Gismo and data at rival corp research facility, call in a tip and watch the fireworks as the two corps have fun with each other.

Posted by: Cynic project Feb 1 2007, 01:02 AM

Never worry about losing tools. you can replace tools. You can't replace yourself.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Feb 1 2007, 01:50 AM

QUOTE (Cynic project)

Never worry about losing tools. you can replace tools. You can't replace yourself.

Tools, however, may contain ritual links to you. Thus, loosing a tool can lead to the loss of self.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Feb 1 2007, 01:52 AM

Which brings us to the point: Burn everything you don't take with you.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Feb 1 2007, 01:52 AM

QUOTE

You can't replace yourself.

but you can replace parts of your self.

QUOTE

Burn everything you don't take with you

whole new meaning

Posted by: Ravor Feb 1 2007, 02:09 AM

<Stolen from another Thread>

Whenever a chance to geek a cop with little chance of it being traced back to you presents itself, take it. After all the pigs tend to get cocky when their average life span raises too high.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Feb 1 2007, 02:14 AM

QUOTE (Thain)

I wrote this for my group a few years ago, I think its funny still.

[ Spoiler ]

I've heard that song. Who was it speaking? Some-one said it was Baz Lurhmann.

Posted by: Spike Feb 1 2007, 02:39 AM

I'd say it was stolen from Chris Rock, but what do I know?I don't even know who baz lurhumen is...

Posted by: Teulisch Feb 1 2007, 02:41 AM

Look like you belong. The best way to hide is in plain sight, as something everyone expects to see. while you can use illusions, a non-magical disguise is more practical when you can do it.

gel rounds are great for people. bring something more lethal for para-critters and drones.

You can open any door, any lock, any safe. the only real question is time. dont assume you will have enough time to do it the hard way. those cameras and gaurds are there for exactly that reason.

Posted by: ornot Feb 1 2007, 02:52 AM

@KK... An idea presents itself. Have the Johnson meet them online. That way most of the social adepts powers are limited.

If your players are bullying you by refusing to play if you don't offer them uber goodness, then you're probably better off finding a group who are a little more mature.

Refusing to play unless you win is a tactic adopted by 5 year olds.

Posted by: Garrowolf Feb 1 2007, 03:34 AM

What would be funny is if your social adepts started loosing jobs because the johnson liked them TOO much! Basically they get to know each other over the meet and he decides that the mission is too dangerous for his new friend. Basically they keep on getting contacts but no one will send them on a run!

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Feb 1 2007, 04:12 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon)

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Jan 31 2007, 02:34 AM)

...actually, some of the more disruptive characters are played by one of the other GMs in our group. It's not so much they actually walk out than they threaten to or browbeat the J. Unfortunately because of the situation I mentioned in earlier posts, I end up accommodating their wishes since I invested a fair amount of time setting up the run (and getting to the site we play at) and don't want to waste it all by just packing things in.

As to advancement, I am pretty generous to a point. The pure roleplay segments offer a lot of opportunity for the characters to to earn bonus "Instant Karma".

QUOTE (ornot)

KK... An idea presents itself. Have the Johnson meet them online. That way most of the social adepts powers are limited.

If your players are bullying you by refusing to play if you don't offer them uber goodness, then you're probably better off finding a group who are a little more mature.

I actually have considered that. In my last campaign, the PCs actually tied to avoid Face to Face with the Johnson since she was fairly "influential".

Unfortunately Portland seems to be a fairly "lean" gaming community when it comes to SR so I feel I have to take what I can get.

@Garrowolf: Interesting take. I'll have to keep this in mind for the next mission.

Posted by: Mistwalker Feb 1 2007, 05:04 PM

@KK

A few other options that you can use are:

Meet is done by their Fixer, as the Johnston does not want to be known to them or deal with them (their rep is gettign around). Their fixer won't take nearly as much abuse as they seem to be dishing out to the Johnston. And have better ways of indulging in a bit of revenge vs the players.

Have word get around about them, so the Johnstons start offering 50% of what they are willing to pay, expecting to be beat up to 75 to 100%. The chars will probably never know, think they are soo good....

Have a second run set up one night, so when they turn the first one or the Johnston walks, you run the second one. Then have them "hear" about the first one that they turned down being done by another crew, who made out like kings.

Have the Johnston turn into a Dragon, who is annoyed at the threats. Just make sure that the room is big enough.

Posted by: Jack Kain Feb 1 2007, 06:27 PM

Bargaining for a higher pay is a part of shadowrun life, if the Johnson can't handle that then he's not worth working for and the team should never speak or work with them again. There is no good reason to deny the PC's the chance to negotiate for a higher pay.

You can easily still set limits say up to four hits and each hit increases payment by 5%. Then throw in the Johnsons opposed roll.

If the runners keep refusing missions, well the need to eat and pay rent will catch up with them.

Posted by: ShadowDragon Feb 1 2007, 06:58 PM

QUOTE

Throw in more intimidation factor. Give the Johnson a few body guards and use them to threaten the PCs if they step out of line. Or just make a Johnson a super badass and fight the PCs once or twice.

QUOTE

As to advancement, I am pretty generous to a point. The pure roleplay segments offer a lot of opportunity for the characters to to earn bonus "Instant Karma".

I meant monetary advancement. You might be the mage's best friend because of the karma you're giving out, but the sammies are dependent on nuyen to advance.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Feb 1 2007, 07:19 PM

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)

I'll admit that I do this sometimes. *offers hand for slap* Sometimes a frequent GM can have a hard time remembering that they're not in charge, and need a reminder.

I know it can be hard getting the group to toe the line a bit more, but if that's the issue you're having, you're either going to have to do something about it, or expect it to keep happening.

As an example, I was having that problem, with the PC's being tools to the Johnson frequently. I got sick of it. THey came in to a meet, ,sat down with the Johnson, Johnson gave them the pitch. They started being smart asses, and one guy, said "Oh great, another extraction." (The last one they'd done about 3-4 sessions ago hadn't gone well. I was runnning Blood in the BOard room, following the Ares track for this session).

THe Johnson stood up, said "I was told you're team was professional. APparetnly I heard wrong.", and walked out. They just sat they're looking at each other. I rna them going about their daily lives for the next hour or so, about a week in game time. They tooled around shops, burned some cred, yadda yadda yadda, before they got another call for a lower paying, entry level type run, form their fixer, who was none to happy with them. It sucked, because I was stoked about the run, but it worked out better in the end.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Feb 1 2007, 07:24 PM

KK, it may be hard, but here's what you do.

Go back to them, and have a J planned out with a nice mission, with generous pay and leeway with how much he will pay. But obey the three-step rule:

75% is his opening price
100% is what he wants to pay
125% is the very most he'll pay

Part of the problem is that we don't know what your group is. If they're a tech-heavy group, they may have such expenses that the runs you've been offering them simply don't pay enough in their minds. So here's what you do.

Offer them a big lump sum pay. 75,000 is his up-front offer, and he can be bargained up to 125,000

Split four ways, that's not so bad - 31,250 each. Enough for a nice shiny new rotodrone.

Anyways, the J simply cannot go above 125,000 . Have him explain this to them if they try to bargain him up from there. "I'm sorry. That's as high as I'm going to go. It's not worth more than that."

If they persist, have the J stand up, politely say "I appologize, but I see I have contrated men who are simply too good for my needs. I cannot pay you what you are worth, and for this I am deeply shamed. I must go to find lesser men than you."

And then he leaves. Pure and simple. Then say, "Okay, guys, this is me. You've just chased off a good deal because you got greedy, and you're not gonna get another one that good for a long time. You're aquiring a rep for being far too greedy. So, that's it. Goodnight."

Put your book in your bag, then pause, and look at them again, and say "OR, we can pretend that didn't happen. We can pretend you believed Mr. Johnson when he said that was the absoloute most he could pay you. You can take the job, we can have a Shadowrun tonight, and you guys can stop doing this from now on. Your choice."

Sometimes an OOC soloution works best. OR, you could just have the Social adept roll, the Johnson roll (of course it's going to come out for the social guy), and say "You get him up to 125,000 . If you never quoted an original figure, they may think they're squeezing him for every last he has - which they are.

Posted by: djinni Feb 1 2007, 07:24 PM

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)

okay they threaten the Johnson, that's what the bodyguards are for...
looks like you have two options.
option 1:
J: "sit down like a good boy."
Runners: "<insert insult and threat>"
J: "what you thought I picked this restaraunt because I like the atmosphere? no I picked it because all my friends come here...and they all have bodyguards...if you take the time to look around half of the people here are armed and will kill you if you try any of that crap again."

option 2:
double cross them, the J doesn't like being threatened.
have him agree to whatever price the runners ask, and only give 10% up front. then the "drop point" just so happens to be where a couple of lone star HTR teams are following up on an anonymous tip about some runners...

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Feb 1 2007, 07:28 PM

Oh, yeah. You can do a lot to a Mr. J, because he needs you almost as badly as you need him, but you can't threaten him. That's what bodyguards are for.

Have about six guys materialize out of the woodworks, carrying Ares Alphas, and "advise" the runners to leave. Immideately.

Posted by: cetiah Feb 1 2007, 07:30 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon @ Jan 31 2007, 12:30 AM)

QUOTE (cetiah @ Jan 31 2007, 12:16 AM)

Err I don't get it. Can you elaborate a bit? Was this discussed in another thread somewhere?

QUOTE

I agree. I use notoriety, street cred, and public awareness a lot for this reason. I also like to point out what they earn each point of karma for.

Sorry it took so long to get back to you on this. I've been spending my time in the hacking threads. In honor of Microsoft's release of their newest operating system, I've switched over to Linux, and so I've spent a lot of time with my computer playing around and exploring all the new features at my fingertips rather than doing productive things like posting dumpshock posts and writing up my Shadowrun rules. Sorry.

First, my "identity" rules can be found in http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=16442. This is Part I of my Social Engineering system (which may be inadptly named, but I think it sounds cool and Shadowrun-y). http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=16442 covers rules for lifestyle, credit, reputation, and how to launder money. Heat (also referred to as 'marks') is used as a way to adjudicate when an identity becomes too risky to use. If you get too much heat, the identity becomes 'tagged', which means its very dangerous to keep and difficult to get rid of. The concept of "heat" interacts with my Mission Builder which has yet to be posted because I'm starting to question some of the inherent premises on which it was built.

Social Engineering Part: II will be posted either this weekend or next week and will cover "downtime actions" - the stuff runners do when they're not running and the players aren't playing. All those little things they get "assumed" during play are now covered in downtime actions. These actions are required to maintain relationships with your contacts, tinker with your stuff to stay ahead of SOTA, heal after an injury, or "Go To Ground" when you've got too much heat on your identities, and also to generally improve your identity by using it for day-to-day normal affairs. Each "downtime action" will take 1 day in which your primary activity for that day will assumed to be based around the selected "downtime action". I'm hoping it should work pretty well for those runners that have side-aspects of their characters that rarely come into play, such as arms dealing, day jobs, or fixers.

Social Engineering Part III will cover my rules for contacts and how they are used, acquired, and lost. This will tie in heavily with my identity rules because contacts are associated with identities now (even they don't know who you really are - unless you trust them with your inherent identity, which has benefits and drawbacks). It will also include guidelines for making sub-type characters - contact-type "themed" characters that have become runners (or vice versa). The bulk of this section will be on the rules regarding how contacts work, and new rules (and examples) for legwork, stakeouts, and investigations.

I don't remember if http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=16379 have been updated to include identity rules yet, but the only places I can think of mentioning it are that tracing and tracking someone electronically causes an increase in heat for the identity being used. Also, the trid pirate can sacrifice paydata to "expose" someone's illicit or immoral activities, increasing their heat (along with adjustments to their rep). I don't remember if the trid pirate stuff has been posted yet, but once there's decent rules for it, I think it might be a desireable sub-type for a lot of hackers. I also want to include the possibility of manipulating public policy (i.e., "heat") to do things like get people fired, rig elections, or stop black-op projects, as kind of an alternative way of winning some mission goals (or alternative missions the runners can be sent to accomplish). I'm not sure where to include this stuff yet - it will either be included in Social Engineering I: Identity or in Cetiah's Custom Hacking Rules under the trid-pirate sub-type.

The identity rules were made to accompany the Mission Builder, which is currently being re-designed based on ideas from people in this forum. It was made to replace those "Security Ratings" and similiar "rules" from previous editions, but was designed to make a random variety of missions for the runners to choose from because I didn't like the idea of the runner's having only one choice of mission to go on each session. Now if they got a trecherous Johnson, it's their fault because they chose it. If the mission was harder then expected, oh well, it's not the GM's fault - I didn't make you pick that one. Also, the Mission Builer makes sure I don't forget key critical components of things like building security or clues in legwork, etc. It's designed to provide a mission "frame" so that a GM can provide and adjust details on the fly. For example, there's a fixed amount of security guards that the GM is allowed to throw at the PCs, but various "security events" increase this amount. This interacts with identity because there are some traps like "Marking Wards" and "FRID Tags" and "Screamer Cameras" that will add Heat to a runner's identity after the run if they didn't detect and circumvent these traps.

If you have any more questions related to any of these rulesets, feel free to either post in the thread already made, make a new thread, or PM me and I'll start a new thread.

(P.S. Garrawolf also posted some identity-rules that he uses in my Identity thread. You may be interested in checking those out, too - they're a lot simpler than mine but were made to deal with similiar issues.)

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Feb 1 2007, 07:48 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

Oh, yeah. You can do a lot to a Mr. J, because he needs you almost as badly as you need him

For the most part, I disagree with that. This does depend on your location and your crew, and the type of job of course. But give your standard fare run, and assume a "Runnner Haven" like Seattle, where there's plenty of talent available, I'd say it's a fair assumption that if the J didn't like the team, he could walk and have another meet with another team within 12-24 hours.

Factor in "urgnet run" or high quality teams, or lack of general talent in the area, and this could change of course. The J is also going to expect a certain amount of guff and disrespect from "gutter runners", but there should be that line where they have to be reminded of who the employer is, and that there are other runners out there looking for a pay day.

Maybe a competition run against other runner teams like the one in Blood in the Board room would be a good reminder.

Posted by: Thane36425 Feb 1 2007, 08:00 PM

There is always the blackmail option. Suppose the runners had pulled a bloody or destructive run against someone like Aztechnology and the Azzies find out who did it. Rather than kill the runners, they find somone close to one or mre of the runners. They hire a Mr. Johnson to offer the team a run, not telling them it is the Azzies who are hiring them. If they refuse, Mr. J hands over a phone to a PC and on the other end if that certain someone in the hands of a nasty bunch of people. Now its do the job or lose the slob.

Granted that is underhanded as hell, but if the team has been playing fast and loose like there are no consequences, that might shake them up a bit. Of course, there is always the chance the players won't care and still walk away. Have it turn out the certain someone was used in a blood magic ritual and the Azzies let enough of the players contacts know about it. Their well will dry in a hurry over something like that.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Feb 1 2007, 09:32 PM

...to all, thanks for the pointers.

I actually have a fair amount of GM/DM experience (SF, Fantasy, Superhero), but unlike with these games, characters in Shadowrun need a different incentive "the job offer" to act. it is a lot easier to get them going when say some evil overlord is terrorising the countryside, or a megalomaniac is holding the city hostage with his new super secret death weapon. Runners, (at least in our group) don't get up from their sofa while watching the trivid and say, "that corp is really screwing things up, I think I'll get my chummers together & we'll go take a whack at them."

I particularly like the idea of the fixer handling the deal. For one thing, he or she knows at least on of the PCs and possibly enough about the others to know how to work them. I recently have started to include bodyguards and an "assistant" for the Johnson. For one session, I held the meet in a really ritzy restaurant which discouraged coming in "armed to the teeth" and glowing with sustained spells and active foci. This levelled the playing field on both sides. The only thing with this is that it is unrealistic (unless the same J hires them again) to use such a setting for every mission.

Posted by: Slash_Thompson Feb 1 2007, 10:34 PM

I don't think it's particularly 'unrealistic' at all. and significantly more realistic than rarely having a meet in an upscale location (note that it doesn't always have to be a restaurant either. Have the meet happen at a Seahawks or Mariners Game, in a museum or at a convention - anywhere that security would be moderately high) Most Johnsons represent a group with significant bankroll and out in plain-sight is often the best place to hide something illegal.

The additional expenses incurred over a meet in, say, an abandoned parking garage are easily justified in terms of Johnson Safety and likelihood of hiring a 'better class' of 'Runner. (Remember too, most Johnsons represent a significant investment in training time and resources for the organization they represent and that organization, under normal circumstances, will want to protect that investment)

edit: for clarity

Posted by: Cheops Feb 1 2007, 10:39 PM

I usually use the pattern of meet somewhere public and nice for the job offer and then the handoff afterwards tends to take place somewhere out of the way.

Favorites for the meet are: restaurants, hotels, parks, night clubs, markets, malls, even the aquarium once.

Handoffs are usually: parking garages, the Barrens, wilderness (Snohomish or Ft. Lewis esp), etc...

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Feb 2 2007, 01:37 AM

...For the mission I ran before the one I am currently putting people through I had the meet take place at Embers, a very exclusive restaurant in the Elven district. Reservations Required, Valet Parking, Black Tie, No spellcasting/sustained spells, walls with Wireless defeating material etc.(lots of paranoid ex Tir slots in the Metrolpex now since the Crash and demise of the old council).

The meet for the current run took place at Gracie's For Ribs (love the old Seattle Sourcebook). Again a fairly respectable place. Actually, this was one of the best meets I ran. The experience they had at Embers might have something to do with why it went so smoothly.

Posted by: Garrowolf Feb 2 2007, 06:46 AM

I knew a player in someone else's game that figured out that the game couldn't start until he agreed so he ran the price up really high. He basically blackmailed the GM in game into locking the game up.

I knew another GM who, when that same player did that again said,"well the Johnson can't afford that." and packed up his books and left. The other players solved the problem after that.

The only time that you will see a Mr Johnson in my games is if he is sitting right beside the Fixer. The Fixer doesn't like it but his boss, the Mafia Boss for all of Seattle told him to deal with it. Now if the players try anything funny then they are sitting in a heavily armed building that is owned and run by the Mafia. They have several layers of cyberware scanners, magical protection and machine guns in the walls. This is not including the fact that most of the people in the building are actually bodyguards and street sammies that work for the mafia (it's a club I use). There is a weapons check at the door, but by that time you have passed 8 guards at the entrance to the parking lot, 12 on a wall around the parking lot, another 8 at the door. Then each level has 4 at each stairway going up to the next level. How far up you get depends on who you know. Mafia bosses hang around on the 5th floor but the lower levels are clubs for the lower level people with connections. You have to go up to the 3rd floor to even see the fixer. This is the floor that all the corrupt cops hang out.

If they try and negoitate too much then the fixer will tell them no and so far that has been the end of it. If they say they need it for a specific reason then the fixer can make a call and solve the cost in house.

If they get really stupid and try and attack anyone in there and they happen to escape then they can spend the rest of the game looking over their shoulders. Most of their contacts are through the Mafia and so they are out in the cold. Their IDs were created by a mafia SIN decker. They have no house anymore. They are hunted men.

They have to use organized crime to function in my game. The only independants are low level gangers. If they want to go independant then they will have no ability to make useful contacts. Everyone works or is aligned with someone. You could walk away but you can't set up shop in someone else's back yard.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Feb 2 2007, 06:51 AM

QUOTE (Garrowolf)

That guys a tool and should be smacked

QUOTE

I knew another GM who, when that same player did that again said,"well the Johnson can't afford that." and packed up his books and left. The other players solved the problem after that.

That guys great.

Seriosuly, I've seen this before. If the players try to screw the game for metagame reasons like that, smack 'em with something in game. If it's jsut one player being a jerk and ruining it for everyone else, just cut him out of the deal in game. he can sit on his hands for the rest of the session.

Posted by: Garrowolf Feb 2 2007, 06:56 AM

yeah I have lots of things that make it a bad idea in my game. This was an example of a novice GM just as a warning to others that I try and keep in mind.

I had one person try this with me before I switched to using the Fixer instead of the Johnson. The Johnson just looked at him and said,"I don't need to hire you. I can hire someone else instead that can do this under budget. Convince me that I should hire you at all."

They talked him down instead of up!

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Feb 2 2007, 07:00 AM

QUOTE (Garrowolf)

The Johnson just looked at him and said,"I don't need to hire you. I can hire someone else instead that can do this under budget. Convince me that I should hire you at all."

They talked him down instead of up!

Nice, very nice. Wish I could give you karma for that man.

Posted by: Garrowolf Feb 2 2007, 07:06 AM

well you can send money and I would TRY and remember to pass it along.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Feb 2 2007, 07:25 AM

QUOTE (Garrowolf)

I had one person try this with me before I switched to using the Fixer instead of the Johnson. The Johnson just looked at him and said,"I don't need to hire you. I can hire someone else instead that can do this under budget. Convince me that I should hire you at all."

"We are truely sorry to hear that someone has willfully wasted the other persons valuable time. It would seem best if both of us return to their better business opportunities immediatly - have a nice day."
Then leave and get more proactive - i.e. steal something and sell it.

Uh, wait. In your SR world, independent work is not possible per defintion. Tough luck - looks like it's a railroad ticket for everyone, then.

Posted by: Wakshaani Feb 2 2007, 10:33 AM

Solved that lil' problem a while back.

Teh first thing is to slowly work out a few night-long sessions during your down time. Nothing too fancy, strictly by-the-numbers minor runs, good for low level Runners that you could dash off in a night. Keep about ahalf dozen of those around, so in case of a walkout by teh players, or teh Johnson, the whole night isn't over.

The next is to get past the idea that the Shadowrunners are the *only* Shadowrunners. Have them show up, to see a different team meeting with Mr Johnson and, when the team's turn is up, have Mr Johnson mention that he's got another team (indicated with a nod that-a-way) to interview after the PCs. He's looking for a group that can do teh job, after all, and you don't just interview a single candidate, now do you?

Now, if teh team works with teh same Johnson several times and builds up a good reputation, he might come to them first, or even exclusively. "Ingenue, this is Mr Johnson. I've got a very important mission up and I'd prefer your team take it on. I'm prepared to offer our usual deal and can have the pertinent data delivered to you within the hour if you're interested."

Teh team gets regular work, and gets a Johnson that won't screw them over (Or, well, at least not too badly), because they shaped up and flew right. If they keep pressing their Johnsons too hard, however, they get a bad rep, other teams snap up teh good runs, and the team gets jobs like "Help Mrs Silverman find one of her lost Glow Kats. Pays 1000Y, split however you want."

And nobody wants that.

-- Wak

"Glow Kats, Glow Kats, they're the only cats *bum bum* that glow!"

Posted by: toturi Feb 2 2007, 01:51 PM

QUOTE (Wakshaani)

You got to be shitting me. If one group of runners know another group got the job, what is stopping them from cutting a deal with the target of the run or simply putting word on the street that other group is on a job or that Johnson is looking for people for a job?

If such a Johnson offered my players a job like that with other group knowing about it, they would walk. The Johnson might not be stabbing the PCs in the back, he would be stabbing them right in the heart from the front.

Posted by: Mistwalker Feb 2 2007, 01:53 PM

Back to the original thread.

Use plenty of Nanopaste for every run.
Use it when you meet the Johnston, use it on the run, use it for the handover.
Then don't use that "face" again.

Do this for every run, and you won't care if the face you used on the last run is plastered all over the place.

Your Fixer who sets up the meets, or the Johnston does if he is a regular, will know how to contact the runners, and know that they never look the same, do no problem from that end.

Posted by: Ed_209a Feb 2 2007, 01:54 PM

QUOTE (Sir_Psycho)

QUOTE (Thain @ Jan 31 2007, 12:17 PM)

I wrote this for my group a few years ago, I think its funny still.

[ Spoiler ]

I've heard that song. Who was it speaking? Some-one said it was Baz Lurhmann.

It reminds me a lot of "The Sunscreen Marketing Board" By Three Dead Trolls in a Baggie.

My advice to new runners? In a given situation, don't carry a weapon that will get you into more trouble than it will get you out of.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Feb 2 2007, 09:32 PM

QUOTE (Mistwalker)

...KK4.3 has recently learned the Facial Sculpt, Melanin & Control adept powers & Disguise skill.

...now she only needs to remember to use these at the appropriate times.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Feb 2 2007, 09:40 PM

QUOTE (Mistwalker)

Do this for every run, and you won't care if the face you used on the last run is plastered all over the place.

Even better - use the face and the fingerprints of people you don't like.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Feb 2 2007, 11:25 PM

QUOTE (toturi)

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Feb 2 2007, 06:33 PM)

If Mr. J did that, my inclination as a team would be to go through the motions, underbid, and decline at the last minute, appologizing that smoething personal to all of us has come up.

J will be annoyed he has to spend the time explaining the run to the other team. Meanwhile, we're setting up across the street in the other building with LMGs and sniper rifles and spirits.

When the other team walks out the door, they get it. Then when Mr. J runs out the back, a Great Form Force 4 Earth Elemental Engulfs him and drags him into the ground.

Because really, that is pretty much the equavilent of stabbing someone in the heart, straight from in front of them. But if I were DMing it, I'd do one better.

The other team would be just as pissed about the betrayal. So they'd cut a deal with the team: Do the run together, grab the goodies or whatever. The team that winds up "Hired" goes to the hand-off as normal. The other team is laying in wait. When Mr. J shows up, you slag him, take the money, and keep the goods. Then organleg him and his bodyguards.

Because you Do Not Screw the Hired Help. (Some people get away with regularly screwing the hired help, but they're the exception, IMO, not the rule.)

Posted by: Slump Feb 2 2007, 11:54 PM

QUOTE

"Help Mrs Silverman find one of her lost Glow Kats. Pays 1000Y, split however you want."

QUOTE

Runners are not going to work for less money than they could make by stealing a Ford Americar once every couple of weeks and having the group troll negotiate the sale to a chop shop. ~ mmu1

Heck, at 1000

the runners would probably make more money just showing up and organlegging Mrs Silverman and stealing the stuff out of her apartment.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Feb 3 2007, 12:34 AM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

Do Not Screw the Hired Help

...another good Golden Rule to abide by.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Feb 3 2007, 12:34 AM

Yup

Posted by: ornot Feb 3 2007, 03:31 AM

QUOTE (toturi)

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Feb 2 2007, 06:33 PM)

/snip

The next is to get past the idea that the Shadowrunners are the *only* Shadowrunners. Have them show up, to see a different team meeting with Mr Johnson and, when the team's turn is up, have Mr Johnson mention that he's got another team (indicated with a nod that-a-way) to interview after the PCs. He's looking for a group that can do teh job, after all, and you don't just interview a single candidate, now do you?

/snip

It would be a foolish Johnson that let his potential hirees find out about each other, and a truly retarded Johnson that told the runners exactly what the job entailed before they had agreed to do it.

My Johnsons tell the runners the price, the type of run and the approximate level of opposition. (For example: "it's a data snatch from a megacorp and the price is 8000yen"). A certain degree of probing by the runners is expected, but if they ask for anything too concrete the J responds "I can't reveal that information unless you agree to the job". If they say no, they can walk, but the J won't have compromised his employers or whatever runner team he eventually did hire. If they agree to the job, but then decide to walk, not only will their rep as professionals take a hit, but the J will probably do his best to liquidate them before word of the mission reaches the streets.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Feb 3 2007, 04:03 AM

QUOTE (ornot)

QUOTE (toturi @ Feb 2 2007, 08:51 AM)

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Feb 2 2007, 06:33 PM)

If you tried to sell me 8,000

for a run on an un-named Megacorp, I'd tell you to go frag your mudder.

So I hope you were just using that as a random example.

Posted by: toturi Feb 3 2007, 04:18 AM

QUOTE (ornot)

QUOTE (toturi @ Feb 2 2007, 08:51 AM)

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Feb 2 2007, 06:33 PM)

Even if he did not tell the team who was the target or any other details of the mission, they'd know that he is the market. The risk of compromising the mission goes up the more people the Johnson interviews.

Looking for a runner team is not like interviewing potential employees, unless you are running a disinformation campaign of massive scale. There will be certain basic points that the J has to reveal before the runners will commit to mission. A good technomancer/hacker can Data Search for probable targets similar to those of the mission parameters in the duration of the meet. Other "info" specialists can add more information to what the mission might be and who the Johnson may be working for.

Posted by: ornot Feb 3 2007, 04:36 AM

@SD8685: That was indeed a random example, pulled out of the air. That being said, a Johnson with a particularly brutal negotiation style might start off that low and haggle!

@Toturi: While it might be possible for a team to build up a picture of the run from the vague details the J gives them, that's kind of the point. They won't know the specifics (what file is worth paydata, who needs extracting, which executive has outlived his usefulness) but they'll have a good idea what the job might entail, and whether the price is fair (the job should be doable for that team as the GM is suggesting it!)

Info brokers could indeed fill in the gaps, but that depends on the brokers being able to give the runners the information in a very short time frame, and the runners being willing to shell out the yen for the info.

I definately agree that a J isn't going to want to make his/her spiel more than 2 or 3 times, but should the first team they meet not take the job, they don't want the job to be fragged for any later teams.

Posted by: toturi Feb 3 2007, 05:09 AM

QUOTE (ornot)

@Toturi: While it might be possible for a team to build up a picture of the run from the vague details the J gives them, that's kind of the point. They won't know the specifics (what file is worth paydata, who needs extracting, which executive has outlived his usefulness) but they'll have a good idea what the job might entail, and whether the price is fair (the job should be doable for that team as the GM is suggesting it!)

Info brokers could indeed fill in the gaps, but that depends on the brokers being able to give the runners the information in a very short time frame, and the runners being willing to shell out the yen for the info.

I definately agree that a J isn't going to want to make his/her spiel more than 2 or 3 times, but should the first team they meet not take the job, they don't want the job to be fragged for any later teams.

You are thinking the runners go to info brokers, I'm thinking the PCs are the info brokers.

Posted by: apollo124 Feb 4 2007, 06:25 AM

Since this topic seems to have become "How to stop my social adept players from screwing over Mr. Johnson", here's my contribution.

Pick up your old Shadowrun Companion (Fanpro 25010) and turn to page 52 "How to Hire a Shadowrunner" I know this chapter was copied from an earlier source, but I can't think of what that was right now.

Anyway, this chapter talks about shadowruns from the other side of the fence, from Mr. Johnson's perspective. Using procedures like having a professional Mr. J stand in for you, tissue samples to keep the group in line, and other things.

Hope this helps, or at least doesn't hurt.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Feb 4 2007, 07:39 AM

QUOTE (apollo124)

You ask a group for tissue samples, and the very minimum they do is walk.

You'll be lucky if the Mage dosen't Task a spirit he has on-call to "Follow this person (In the Astral) for half an hour, then Manifest and Engulf" Or other, similar violence.

Really, giving out Ritual Links to Mr. Johnson?! Why don't you go give them to fragging Lone Star while you're at it! (Assuming that Mr. J isen't Lone Star already.)

Posted by: Glyph Feb 4 2007, 08:50 AM

Professional Johnsons should often employ less-than-ethical means to track or manage the shadowrunners that they hire. They are hiring what they consider street trash to do dirty, dangerous work that they don't want traced back to them. So I would have no problem with Johnsons choosing intimidating settings, occasionally resorting to blackmail even when it isn't needed, and so on, simply for flavor.

But you shouldn't need these tactics simply to keep the players in line during negotiations! ShadowDragon8685's first post on this said it best - give the Johnson a hard cap on what he can offer the runners. After all, it's not his money that he's spending. So that keeps the maxed-out faces in check. As for boorish PCs, simply have them suffer the appropriate in-game consequences, although Johnsons will cut them some slack, since they usually expect thugs.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Feb 4 2007, 09:42 AM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

QUOTE (apollo124 @ Feb 4 2007, 02:25 AM)

They wouldn't be asking, they would be taking the tissue samples from the glass you drunk from, from their glove after the handshake, from the corner that the uncouth troll sam spat in, from the fraggin' restroom if it's possible.

Posted by: Slump Feb 4 2007, 09:59 AM

All the runners I played went all "borrowed ladder" from gataca -- basically, you clear off absolutly all the dead skin cells and loose hair you can from your body, every morning, and carry around dead skin cells and loose hair (and toenail clippings, ect) to spread around so if anyone investigated, they found traces, but not of you.

One extremly paranoid character even went as far as to have a small reserve tank implanted with a DNI valve to make the borrowed urine actually come out of the appropriate oriface. The materials would come from various one-off deals with squatters in the barrens. 100 for a bucket of piss or a handful of hair was a pretty good deal.

Posted by: Garrowolf Feb 4 2007, 10:38 AM

slump that is creative, funny, gross, and disturbing all at the same time. I guess people would be realy careful what they drank out of his frige.

Posted by: apollo124 Feb 4 2007, 02:16 PM

QUOTE (Sir_Psycho)

[/QUOTE]

They wouldn't be asking, they would be taking the tissue samples from the glass you drunk from, from their glove after the handshake, from the corner that the uncouth troll sam spat in, from the fraggin' restroom if it's possible.

Thanks, Sir Psycho. You took the words right out of my mouth. Besides, it wasn't my idea. Straight from the SR Companion.

Posted by: bibliophile20 Feb 4 2007, 08:11 PM

I know of one group that is so paranoid about ritual sorcery, having been hit with it once before, that they've gone to impressive extremes, including:
Only half the team is physically present for the meet; the rest are there over the Matrix.
Those who go to the meet wear what amounts to a layer of latex and Saran-wrap under their clothes (clothes that are only worn for meets and thus have no reside on them), if they have hair, it's not natural, and, if the mage has assensed that the Johnson has no obvious magical backup, the mage constantly casts this invisible sterilize spell that has no visual effects

Posted by: WhiskeyMac Feb 5 2007, 10:46 PM

Mr. Johnson shops around with fixers, not shadowrunners. A Johnson calls up a known fixer on his database and says "I need a team good with infiltration. You got anyone on tap?" The fixer says, "Yeah, I have a few teams that fit that bill. Let me ask around and see who's available." Then the Johnson says, "Excellent, have the team meet me at Icarus Descending, Friday @ 10:30 p.m. sharp. Ask for a Mr. Montebello." *click* Then the fixer runs through their datapad and finds out which team has the best availability and hires them. The Johnson doesn't shop around at the meet. That's just stupid.

Posted by: djinni Feb 6 2007, 01:24 AM

QUOTE (Sir_Psycho)

except the fecal matter from teh toilet, the amount of biological sample you would retrieve would not be enough to garner an acceptable ritual sample, all it would do is give forensic evidence, which all teh runners leave during all runs anyway I don't see why it would matter.

Posted by: Mistwalker Feb 6 2007, 01:29 AM

Who needs fecal matter.
Just have a very sharp needle get a blood sample when they sit down, some kind of auto-injector.

Posted by: Serial_Peacemaker Feb 7 2007, 07:07 AM

It strikes me that jabbing your potential employees with a needle could make the deal go south very quickly. Since the way I see it is that shadowrunners run the gamut. Most have a certain level of professionalism. Others are more or less crazy kamikaze berserkers that happen to hire out their 'talents' for money. All of them are well armed, and usually have reason for paranoia. Even if the needle trick worked say nine out of ten times. Time number ten ends with the Johnson getting shot.

Posted by: cetiah Feb 7 2007, 07:22 AM

QUOTE (Serial_Peacemaker @ Feb 7 2007, 02:07 AM)

Fine, fine. We won't stick them with needles. (sigh)
We'll just do something boring like using a material that absorbs tiny flakes of skin cells. Is on the doorknob? Is it on the chair? Is on the toilet? Is it Mr Johnson's gloves?

Does it have to be biological? Could it just be the clothes? Something he held? A chair he sat in? A room he'd been in?

Ultimately, though, insurance premiums often have significant costs. A 10% expendibility rate for Johnsons should be more or less within acceptable perameters. It's a write-off.

Posted by: toturi Feb 7 2007, 08:01 AM

Are tiny flakes of skin cells sufficient for ritual magic? What if the runners are using Link-me-no-more? For every gimmick you try to get their ritual sample with, you might as well just say,"The Johnson has your ritual samples. No. No. I don't care. Cos I said so."

Actually, on the tenth time, it would end with the Johnson getting dead. But for the rest of the 9 times, it would end with the Johnsons telling the runners everything they know. Remember the GM might be god, but there are a lot more players than GMs and they know where you live.

Posted by: Ravor Mar 4 2007, 10:04 PM

Well I don't remember if its in this thread or another, but I remember reading something here on Dumpshock that has forever changed my shadowrun universe for all time...

In the world of the shadows, there is one line that no-one will ever dare cross, and that is the Runners and Johnson will *NEVER* try to touch each other, and if either side crosses that line then the other has total right to rape, torture, and then kill the other without fear of lossing their rep.

As for tiny flakes of skin and the minute DNA you could find on someone's glass, even if they are good enough to use as a ritual link which I personally doubt (However, at the moment I'm feeling too lazy to search my copy of Street Magic to check for sure.) you have to remember that unless this is a rush job then more than likely the magical link will have faded before the run has even began.

Posted by: apollo124 Mar 5 2007, 05:16 AM

Of course getting a cell sample would be tough. Check out Street Magic, the rules on sympathetic links for ritual magic in the advanced magic rules, pages 28-29. You can, with some luck, get a link off of that glass that the runner was drinking from or a symbolic link with a voodoo doll that is made to look like the runner.

Not saying getting a sample is easy or smart, just that if someone wanted to do it, they don't need an actual sample anymore, just stuff like that listed.

Posted by: Ravor Mar 5 2007, 06:47 AM

True, you're right, it is possible to get Links from the items that you mentioned, however I think you are missing my main point;

I doubt that a few skin flakes are going to last any longer then a bloodstain so you are looking at having to start your ritual within a few hours plus whatever time your preserve spell and/or refrigerating the sample bought you before it is worthless. So with the exception of an extreme rush job its pointless to do so.

For the wine glass you are quite literally talking about only having a matter of minutes before the link is completely useless, so I don't really see much of a point unless the meet itself was nothing more then a set-up from the start and there never was a job for the characters in the first place.

As for using a Voodoo Doll, yes, but then you are also talking about something that can only be done with Metamagic and at the very least takes a full day per doll.

So yes, Ritual Magic can be a very dangerous tool, and in some cases if the Johnson has done his legwork and managed to get ahold of favored personal belongings for the entire team, or has access to the necessary metamagic and time to craft voodoo dolls of the entire team there isn't really much of anything that the team can do to defend themselves against him, but then you have me wondering what in the nine hells are the Runners agreeing to do to be worth that much effort on the Johnsons part before he even knows whether they'll accept the job or not.

Because unless they are agreeing to something on the scale of Mission Impossible ect then I think it is the same exact thing as simply dropping a Thor Shot on them.

Posted by: Thane36425 Mar 5 2007, 07:00 AM

QUOTE (Ravor)

So yes, Ritual Magic can be a very dangerous tool, and in some cases if the Johnson has done his legwork and managed to get ahold of favored personal belongings for the entire team, or has access to the necessary metamagic and time to craft voodoo dolls of the entire team there isn't really much of anything that the team can do to defend themselves against him, but then you have me wondering what in the nine hells are the Runners agreeing to do to be worth that much effort on the Johnsons part before he even knows whether they'll accept the job or not.

Because unless they are agreeing to something on the scale of Mission Impossible ect then I think it is the same exact thing as simply dropping a Thor Shot on them.

It can also be dangerous. If the target has the Reflecting ability, they could bounce the sending right back. It helps to do this from inside a strong ward, Hermetic cricle or lodge so as to weaken the sending first.

Posted by: Thane36425 Mar 5 2007, 07:04 AM

QUOTE (bibliophile20)

It might have been more effective to put the word on the street the kind of games that that Johnson pulled and which Fixer set up the meet. They would see their "street cred" drop in the toilet, along with the sponsoring corp. For that matter, the streets might not even care too much if the Johnson and Fixer ended up dead, particularly if they pulled that stunt on a well known team or one with a good rep.

Posted by: Thane36425 Mar 5 2007, 07:11 AM

QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)

This is how I handled it too. Teams would have a rep for the kinds of work they were good at and would be contacted by a fixer for a matching job. This would even apply to those canon pick ups in a bar. The fixer already knows about the runners and goes looking for them in person and "finds" them at the bar.

They probably do keep their options open though. They would nave a couple of teams in mind and start with the one at the top of that list. If they don't bite or aren't available, they go to the B team and so on.

Posted by: MaxHunter Mar 6 2007, 05:21 AM

I do things that way too. I mean, street cred, rep for specific kinds of work, etc. Unluckily for some of my players, they got outstanding good rep for a couple bodyguard and security duties and now are called for the most horribly difficult runs. (and their character stats still lag behind their reputations)

Ok course, they earn good money, but it's fun to watch:

Mr Johnson - "The opposition expected is both corporate and government, and it is expected that ultimate measures be taken against you once your cover is blown, of course, we are sure your team will be able to handle that..." (extracted from last run, still in progress)

cheers,

Max

Posted by: nathanross Mar 6 2007, 06:25 AM

Yeah, powerfull voodoo mystic adepts that spirit their charisma to 12 and negotiate with 18+ dice do often miss the subtle clues the world gives them while they are masturbating on their own power. Blow and Glow, who coulda thunk?

EDIT: Just realizing thread addressed was 3 pages back.

Posted by: kzt Mar 7 2007, 05:28 AM

QUOTE (MaxHunter)

Unluckily for some of my players, they got outstanding good rep for a couple bodyguard and security duties and now are called for the most horribly difficult runs. (and their character stats still lag behind their reputations)

I've always felt that games where PCs were supposed to be bodyguards is a lot like having the PCs work as a SWAT team, in that most of the things that make the operation work or not work are not things that show up in a game.

Careful advance teams, methodical research, careful observation, self-discipline, routine, organization, and ability to influence your customers schedule, lifestyle and actions are the keys to keeping your customer alive. I can't see how to effectively roleplay most of these. Attacks typically take advantage of weakness that are created in some fashion and are extremely violent sudden bolts from the blue. "and the limo with Jack, Steve and your client is shredded when the baby carriage on the sidewalk explodes. What do you do now?" has struck me as less than fun.

How do you make it work?

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Mar 7 2007, 05:52 AM

Yeah, I always had problems with body guard runs as well. Always struck me as a lot of waiting, then sudden burst of action, then it's over. Bottle rocket run.

Posted by: tisoz Mar 7 2007, 07:42 AM

QUOTE (Ravor @ Mar 4 2007, 04:04 PM)

Sounds like something http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=16431&st=0&#entry500874 said.

Posted by: Spike Mar 7 2007, 03:24 PM

QUOTE (kzt)

QUOTE (MaxHunter @ Mar 5 2007, 10:21 PM)

A couple of years ago I was studying on how to be a bodyguard, thought it would make an interesting second career, but my first career got in the way.

Essentially, you don't make guarding the client the focus... that is actually babysitting him, you make all that prep work the main part of the run. Your players ARE the advance team. They ARE looking at potentially hostile persons of interest. THAT is what you make the focus of the run.

This being shadowrun, rather than the real world, they could even launch pre-emptive attacks against potential attackers to keep them out of the way.

The actual babysitting is your climactic scene, where all their work either pays off... or it doesn't. Certainly you should never just blow them up without some sort of warning, after all they are professionals of a sort and should get a chance to notice something is not right.

Bodyguarding a client against their will is even easier as you CAN control their every move, of course, for Shadowrun, the biggest threats are going to be the bastard escaping.... in emulation of the source materials.