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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Weapon size differentiation

Posted by: sunnyside Feb 1 2007, 10:28 PM

Basically in the rules, if you're going out loaded for bear, there isn't any reason to not use as heavy a weapon as you can carry. Personally I like some differentiation in the weapons so you may want a different firearm in different tactical situations.

Since I'm now trying SR4 I should come up with SR4 based house rules. Let me know what you thing/what you do.

Shooting from cover/around corners

SMG and smaller - no penalty
rifle/shotgun - standard -1
sniper rifle/heavy weapon - -2
(just try it if you don't think weapon length makes a difference)

fireing while in close combat
hold out pistol - -1
light pistol -2
SMG/heavy pistol -3 (standard)
assault rifle/shotgun -4
sniper rifle -6

Again if this does take sense get something that's 1.5 meters long with an imaginary trigger part way back. Let someone stand close to you and then see if you can "shoot" them with it or if you don't get the chance.

Posted by: mrlost Feb 1 2007, 10:41 PM

I'm not sure it matters where the trigger is when IMHO everyone of note is going to be using Smartgun Links anyway and firing their personal weapons electronically (especially when firing around corners since that is one of the things that the Smartgun link is for).

My character likes using a Defiance EX Shocker since it can be used as a hand or ranged taser and incapacitates fairly easily without murdering my foes. If I was just interested in doing as much damage to my foe as possible its a forgone conclusion that I'd load up the biggest scariest weapon I could lay my grubby hands on.

Posted by: Thain Feb 1 2007, 10:46 PM

I find weight and concealabilty is enough of a limiting factor, without introducing rules that none of us will remember anyway. Weight and conceal modifiers can just be noted on the players sheet, and life move on.

Posted by: Serbitar Feb 1 2007, 10:59 PM

And then, there is always the law.

Posted by: mrlost Feb 1 2007, 11:05 PM

QUOTE (Thain)

Have to agree on the concealability.

Common sense plays a factor too, if your supposed to infiltrate an office building during the day and blow something up, trying to sneak a Assault Cannon in is going to make things...tricky. You can't exactly hide it under your coat. Unless your the highlander

Posted by: ornot Feb 1 2007, 11:38 PM

Maybe I just run and play in fairly low power games, but by far the most common weapon is a heavy pistol (usually with a clip of gel rounds and a clip of regular, APDS or EX-ex ammo). I don't actually have a problem with characters toting SMGs or assault rifles, but they choose not to as those kinds of weapons tend to attract too much attention in town.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Feb 2 2007, 01:46 AM

QUOTE (ornot)

...that's pretty much the norm in my campaigns. Heavy Pistols and SMGs are usually the most common since you can hide them under a longcoat. One character just acquired an Ares Alpha (full decked out sammy girl) but hasn't used it yet. When a bit of hell broke loose outside the coffee shop they were in during the beginning of the last session, she actually drew her pistol loaded with S&S rounds. She wisely left the Alpha concealed in the van.

Posted by: Spike Feb 2 2007, 03:13 AM

A great deal of this has to do with what the GM does. If the GM constantly throws fully armored, assualt rifle weilding guards at the players in large numbers, then the players go heavy everywhere.

If the GM lets the players walk around the streets fully strapped for the Yucatan war without the Star falling on them like a ton of bricks, the players will routinely have assualt cannons strapped to their backs.

On the other hand, if the GM keeps the guards light, and only escalates as the players do, then they'll have a good mind to keep a low profile...

Posted by: Garrowolf Feb 2 2007, 06:05 AM

Sunnyside, I agree with your point. I do think that there should be some more situational modifiers. Somehow it seems like these modifiers should be giving a bonus to the defender though instead of the attacker but I can see it both ways.

One way I thought about dealing with this giving the defender within a certain range a bonus to parry longarms. Basically it is easier to move it out of the way.

The length of the rifle is causing a problem right now in Iraq in confined quarters. That is why some people favor bullpup configurations. The Israelis are developing a bullpup assualt rifle to replace the M16 for their solidiers.

Now the only real problem I have with your idea is that you have a -2 to firing from cover with a sniper rifle. This is the main way you use them. With cover you have a stable platform. I think that it would improve things for a sniper rifle.

I agree on the close combat and not on the cover part.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Feb 2 2007, 06:44 AM

Another problem you have is that any space that a troll can fit in, a man with a rifle can fit just as well or better. So unless you want to give trolls a constant -1 or -2 to their dice pools for being in confined spaces, this won't fly.

Posted by: Garrowolf Feb 2 2007, 06:50 AM

Actually Bob I do give Trolls a problem with confined spaces. I also give them a problem with small objects because of their large hands and their dermal deposits make it hard to hold tiny things. I tend to see this and the level of racism against them as balence factors. But on the other paw I give them 2 pts of free RC for their mass and a +2 to intimidation checks.

Posted by: sunnyside Feb 2 2007, 01:39 PM

By the way I don't have a problem with stupid PCs who just want to fight. It's just that it would feel more realistic and, if they know they're getting into a fight as occasionally happens, they would have tactical choices to make that might give them more SWAT like layouts.

Plus I always feel a little silly sending out guards with SMGs when assault rifles are wholly superior. I'm sure they don't mind as it's fluffy but there you are.

Or maybe the lesson is that SMGs are only for times when you need to conceal them and shotguns are for full auto on gyromounts.

@ Bob & Garrowulf. The cover modifier isn't for space limitations but the added difficulty to the shot when leaning around a corner or something else unwieldy instead of being able to have a proper grip. I don't and wouldn't advise applying the modifier if the users can fire their weapon in the normal fashion and there just happens to be some cover between them and the target. Similarly I wouldn't impose it if you can properly set up in a window or somesuch.

Posted by: Mistwalker Feb 2 2007, 01:57 PM

@Sunnyside

SMGs are a lot easier to get around with for most things. I am not talking about concealability. Getting into or out of a vehicle, moving around in confined spaces, etc..

Assault rifles are usually long and unwieldly in any kind of confined space, like offices, sewers, etc..

That is why tank crews won't be issued with assault rifles, but probably SMGs.

Posted by: cristomeyers Feb 2 2007, 02:16 PM

QUOTE (mrlost)

You can't exactly hide it under your coat. Unless your the highlander

The Trench Coat hides all...

I would have to disagree on pistols having CC penalties. Anything larger, sure, but not pistols. They're one handed weapons and if you're firing while in close combat, you're most likely already taking the off-hand penalty (is there one? hasn't come up yet).

Posted by: underaneonhalo Feb 2 2007, 03:24 PM

QUOTE (sunnyside)

Plus I always feel a little silly sending out guards with SMGs when assault rifles are wholly superior. I'm sure they don't mind as it's fluffy but there you are.

Or maybe the lesson is that SMGs are only for times when you need to conceal them and shotguns are for full auto on gyromounts.

I could argue the superiority of the SMG over the AR in confined spaces all day, but seeing as FN Herstal has already done the work for me I'll just direct your attention http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyJEEISVTd4.

Also check out some of H&K's promo videos, awesome stuff.

Posted by: cristomeyers Feb 2 2007, 03:44 PM

True, tight spaces call for SMGs and shotguns. Take your Assault Rifles to open spaces for suppressive fire.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Feb 2 2007, 03:53 PM

You are aware that the average shotgun is as easy to move around as a rifle?

Posted by: sunnyside Feb 2 2007, 04:37 PM

@ mist and crist. I agree and that's what I'm trying to model. Ideally if equiping a team I'd like them(or me) to think things like "Ok we want a couple people with pistols/SMGs in front. One guy with a FA shotgun in case we need to clear a room. A couple guys with assault rifles for midrange/heavier hitting and one sniper rifle in case we need to drop a high rotodrone."

However what I'm wondering is if that's a good way to model things.

Posted by: Spike Feb 2 2007, 04:46 PM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

You are aware that the average shotgun is as easy to move around as a rifle?

Many shotguns used for 'combat' applications are significantly shorter, as they do not require the barrel length that rifles do for maximum efficency. However, yes they are still more or less longer than most SMGs, and therefore a bit unwieldy...

I think, however, that the reason they still get a bye is because they are most effective at close quarters. Police use shotguns in urban environments, in WWI US doughboys earned the ire of europe by using them in trenches... The shotgun is the king of close quarters firepower.... and the SMG is queen.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Feb 2 2007, 04:58 PM

And where does this put short-barrel, folding-stock assaultrifles like the G36C?

Posted by: Spike Feb 2 2007, 05:11 PM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

And where does this put short-barrel, folding-stock assaultrifles like the G36C?

Actually, if you look at the game use of such weapons, it's essentially a very high power (or should be) SMG. Most games put such cut down assault rifles as cut down AK series (AKMs and the like) into the SMG catagory, along with the Bushmaster (a 5.56mm SMG)...

Posted by: cristomeyers Feb 2 2007, 06:47 PM

I think SR pretty much just calls them carbines and puts them in the SMG category.

Posted by: Thain Feb 2 2007, 08:35 PM

QUOTE (cristomeyers)

I think SR pretty much just calls them carbines and puts them in the SMG category.

Bingo. This, of course, blatantly ignores what a carbine actually is... But the designers have no idea what a clip, magazine, semiautomatic, double action, sound suppressor, or a bullet actually are either. Part of the charm of SR is just how many basic things about firearms it has ignored over the years... Sadly, many other RPGs seem to have copied all these same mistakes.

I have actually been forbidden by my game-master to stop correctign the other players when they say things like "I load a clip of new bulltets into my Ares Predator." ARRGH!

I can understand the designers reasons for not listing concealability and weight in the SR4 book, but in all honesty, I think it causes far more problems then it solves. Thankfully, we all have access to prior sourcebooks and quickly added both back into the game. 99.9% of the time, we don't track it, but when we need to we have it available.

I've played every edition of this game, and have read every last gear supplement, and to date I've not seen a single one that uses clips.

Posted by: Dashifen Feb 2 2007, 08:42 PM

QUOTE

I have actually been forbidden by my game-master to stop correctign the other players when they say things like "I load a clip of new bulltets into my Ares Predator." ARRGH!

Forgive me, but what's wrong with the statement? I ask not so that you become so incensed that you destroy your keyboard but only for my own personal edification.

Posted by: Spike Feb 2 2007, 08:42 PM

Thain:

While I understand what your point is, it is rather... er... silly to insist on the exactly correct technical terms at the game table, much less in the book. Common use terms are not the same as technical terms, and lets face it: Clip is common lingo now.

Sure, you and I and a few other gun geeks out there know a clip is a band of metal holding a number of rounds together and is left out of the gun when it's loaded...

but to joe gamer, just like Joe on the street a clip is a box magazine, nothing more and nothing less. Language is fluid, roll with it.

Just like in todays world, the M4 carbine is not technically a carbine at all. But that's what the Army calls it. Good enough for goverment work, I say.

Posted by: RunnerPaul Feb 2 2007, 08:53 PM

QUOTE (Dashifen)

Forgive me, but what's wrong with the statement? I ask not so that you become so incensed that you destroy your keyboard but only for my own personal edification.

I belive it has something to do with the fact that the term "clip" is supposed to be reserved for speedloaders in the form of a thin strip of metal that held your rounds lined up properly while you loaded them into a rifle's internal magazine. The term has since been hijacked by Hollywood, the Rap Music Industry, and pop culture in general to refer to what is actually termed a "Detachable Box Magazine" by firearms purists.

Posted by: cristomeyers Feb 2 2007, 09:00 PM

Clips are from old WWII era rifles (can't remember the name, Garret? doesn't sound right...) Most weapons now use a magazine. Ah well, my group usually just says "I reload"

What I'm not familiar with is what the difference between a carbine and a SMG is. My firearms knowledge kinda stops with the Springfield.

Please of gurus of all things firearms, enlighten me.

Posted by: cristomeyers Feb 2 2007, 09:00 PM

duped post

Posted by: Spike Feb 2 2007, 09:07 PM

QUOTE (cristomeyers)

A carbine is, technically, a short barreled rifle firing pistol ammunition. However, modern usage has removed the ammo qualifier and any shortened rifle could be called a Carbine.

In game terms, these are long SMG's mostly, though some games and some modern 'carbines' are stated up as rifles based on their ammuntion.

Posted by: Thain Feb 2 2007, 09:26 PM

Here's a good essay on the difference: http://www.thegunzone.com/clips-mags.html

A clip is used to load a magazine, while a magazine or a belt is used to load a firearm.

A bullet is a solid projectile propelled by a firearm. The combination of bullet, case, gunpowder and primer is called a cartridge, or round.

And yes, it does matter.

People would freakout if two-wheeled motorized vehicles were call "cars," and everyone would think it silly to describe a thirty-six inch long bladed weapon a "knife."

Fo more info, consult Wikipedia.

Posted by: cristomeyers Feb 2 2007, 09:30 PM

QUOTE

and everyone would think it silly to describe a thirty-six inch long bladed weapon a "knife."

No, they just call them "Long Swords", which gets me in the same way calling a magazine a clip gets you.

Thank you, gurus of all things firearms, I am enlightened.

Posted by: RunnerPaul Feb 2 2007, 09:40 PM

QUOTE (Thain)

everyone would think it silly to describe a thirty-six inch long bladed weapon a "knife."

Except Crocodile Dundee.

Posted by: sunnyside Feb 2 2007, 09:49 PM

The carbine/SMG overlap makes (at least some) sense to me. For example the M4 loses something like 100m/s on muzzle velocity and with the shorter barrel probably doesn't have the accuracy at long range. Also the SMGs are firing, well, I don't know what precisely in SR terms but it's at least heavier than a light pistol. So I think it's slowed rifle bullets vs +p .45 or something pistol cartridges.

I suppose for flavor you could give the carbines -1 AP but they don't get the point of recoil comp from the standard stock like SMGs do.

Posted by: Spike Feb 2 2007, 10:32 PM

Well, in this case the nature of the abstraction hurts Shadowrun's emulation of 'real gun issues'. If X SMG is really a cut down assault rifle, it would be on paper the best SMG, having better damage and/or penetration. Yet, these things aren't the 'top dogs' of the SMG world, namely because they are bigger and often even more uncontrollable than their smaller counterparts.

The M4 is a terrible example of SMGing a rifle, as most versions only fire the three round burst and in operation it is exclusively used as a rifle, but the AK97 carbine in the rules works? Why is this?

Because they artificially give it the same ballistic profile as other SMG's which presumably would actually be using different ammo.

In other words, don't read too much into it. Perhaps the AK97 carbine is a true carbine (firing a 2:1 ratio bullet, rather than a 3:1, and from a straight cartridge....), perhaps its a shortcut to keep things fun rather than accurate.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Feb 3 2007, 12:36 AM

QUOTE (sunnyside)

For example the M4 loses something like 100m/s on muzzle velocity and with the shorter barrel probably doesn't have the accuracy at long range.

It's still hugely better beyond 100 meters than any actual submachine gun, and can be effectively used against point targets up to around 350-450 meters. A cut down assault rifle carbine should have an effective range at least twice as long as any comparable SMG. That's the most obvious problem with considering such weapons SMGs in SR -- the damages are a bit wonky across the table anyway.

Even with the 100-125fps lost because of the 5.5" shorter barrel, an M855 fired from an M4 outpenetrates a .45 ACP +P FMJ from a barrel of similar length by a margin so huge that comparing the two isn't even funny. Or maybe it's just huge enough to make it funny. I'm not sure where I stand on this.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Feb 3 2007, 02:26 AM

So what do you call a pistol sized weapon firing rifle rounds?

-karma

Posted by: sunnyside Feb 3 2007, 03:01 AM

QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Feb 2 2007, 09:26 PM)

So what do you call a pistol sized weapon firing rifle rounds?

-karma

If you saw it you'd probably call it a wanabe flamethrower due to all the powder still burning outside the short barrel.

That doesn't mean they don't (sort of) make them though. And they just call them "pistols" as far as I can tell.

http://www.kel-tec.com/plr16.html

Though once you put on the add ons and a full clip it looks like a carbine they want to sell to the civilian market without the gun control people catching on too soon. Though the extra barrel length reduction is starting to bring velocities down into

Posted by: Spike Feb 3 2007, 03:30 AM

Actually, pistols firing rifle rounds are fairly old school. You can get them. They are almost universally single shot, bolt loaded monsters used by the odd-duck hunter and a few target shooters. Completely impractical for any sort of combat and, as I recall, crazy expensive. And I do imagine they have the flamethrower effect..

EDIT:::: that isn't Duck hunters that are odd, thats Hunters who are odd ducks...

Posted by: Thain Feb 3 2007, 04:19 AM

The Gun-Nut insideme want to bring upthe anceint debate about 5.56mm NATO being called a "rifle round." I know it is, you know it is, but... well, ask about "Poodle Shooters" next time your vist The High Road.

5.56mm NATO or .223 Remington is never going to be confused for a .30-06, that's for darn sure.

I liek the Kel-Tec brand, they are pretty good at making affordable, reliable guns. They are also very good at following all of the laws of places like the People's Republic of California, making certain that the poor folk wholive there can still exercise their human rights... despite what the Governator and Legislature do to them.

That firearm has nothing to do with "getting around gun control laws," every product Kel-Tec markets in California is designed to the exact requirments of California's anti-human rights firearms restriction laws. Compare the free world's http://kel-tec.com/su16c.html to the California legal http://kel-tec.com/su16ca.html.

California has decided its citizens shouldn't be allowed to have a gun that stores safer (folding the stock disconnects the firing mechanism), fires safer (it has a bipod), and costs less (they make more of them). So, Kel-Tec made a version of their popular firearm that complies 100% with Californias laws.

Yet they still get accussed of exploiting "loop holes"

Posted by: TheOneRonin Feb 21 2007, 05:02 PM

QUOTE (sunnyside)

QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Feb 2 2007, 09:26 PM)

So what do you call a pistol sized weapon firing rifle rounds?

-karma

http://www.sskindustries.com/contender.htm

and

http://www.sskindustries.com/encore.htm

are good examples of "hand-rifles". Again, you are looking at SS, high-recoil, and extremely expensive. But they certainly work in a pinch.

Posted by: crimson ronin Feb 21 2007, 06:56 PM

actually theres a really small handgun single shot modeled off a flaregun(i beleive) its a COBRAY 45/410 it will fire a 45 longcolt (which is probably )for a revolver but it looks like rifle ammo

Posted by: Spike Feb 21 2007, 07:03 PM

Never mind the FN five-seven....

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Feb 21 2007, 07:11 PM

There are plenty of derringers and similar weapons of that size that fire the .45 Colt, like http://www.littlegun.be/derringer/a%20derringer%20fr.htm. That's not a particularly awe-inspiring caliber: ballistics-wise it's roughly equivalent to the .45 ACP, which can be found chambered in http://www.amderringer.com/lms.html.

However, firing .410 shot out of one of those derringers, if it works, might be a fun way to dispose of snakes.