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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Are people still goblinizing?

Posted by: Pyritefoolsgold Feb 6 2007, 12:10 AM

i just thought this was an important question, since it seems like the genetic expression ran it's course, and I have a great fiction idea that hinges on a character having genetically expressed at 12, while having normal parents.

Mostly, I want to know if it was at least still going on in the 2050s.

Posted by: cristomeyers Feb 6 2007, 12:12 AM

Yes, it is possible for trolls or orks to have human children that goblinize later. It has become much, much rarer though.

Posted by: Pyritefoolsgold Feb 6 2007, 12:16 AM

No, I'm looking for human parents having a child who goblinizes as an orc or troll. Even if it's very rare, I just need to know if it was still possible in 2050.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Feb 6 2007, 12:31 AM

Yes. As of 2050 there are still children who are not the same race as their parents, and still children who express as an ork or a troll at puberty.

And of course, it's still anyone's guess what happens from the union of two individuals of different race. An Elf who impregnates an Ork will most likely produce a Human, an Ork, or an Elf... but Dwarf or Troll is still entirely possible.

-Frank

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Feb 6 2007, 12:36 AM

I'm just there aren't any Hob- Half- *koff* I mean windlings running about.

Posted by: Pyritefoolsgold Feb 6 2007, 01:24 AM

So, another question though the burning one is now solved: is goblinization still going on? I always thought it was a magnificent part of the pathos of shadowrun.

And by still I mean in the 2070s

Posted by: Jaid Feb 6 2007, 03:30 AM

QUOTE (PBTHHHHT)

I'm just there aren't any Hob- Half- *koff* I mean windlings running about.

you mean sprites?

Posted by: FrankTrollman Feb 6 2007, 03:33 AM

Goblinization is still going on. In 2070, 19 out of 20 humans born to Ork parents goblinize at puberty (SR4, p. 66).

-Frank

Posted by: Ancient History Feb 6 2007, 03:34 AM

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

And of course, it's still anyone's guess what happens from the union of two individuals of different race. An Elf who impregnates an Ork will most likely produce a Human, an Ork, or an Elf... but Dwarf or Troll is still entirely possible.

-Frank

Theoretically. In practice, there are certain constraints. The child of two metahumans is always one of the parents' races (except for orks and trolls, in which case the child might be human and Goblinize later, or any metahumans that could theoretically carry out the full term in a no-mana environment, in which case the kid would be human-but if they carry the ork or troll metatrait, would still goblinize if introduced into a positive mana environment), and even then elves don't give birth to orks or trolls, orks don't give birth to dwarves, etc.

Posted by: Pyritefoolsgold Feb 6 2007, 04:22 AM

Still, while that's a rather nice little bit (being born perfectly normal, but knowing you'll be a troll when you grow up) I'm still more interested in orc or troll children coming from human parents.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Feb 6 2007, 04:28 AM

QUOTE (Ancient History)

QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Feb 6 2007, 12:31 AM)

Going by the old 2050 material, even that is an oversimplification.

The Dwarf/Elf group is distinctly different from the Ork/Troll group. Not just in its propensity to goblinize at puberty, but also in the dominance of its expression.

A child born to an Elf and a Dwarf is approximately equally likely to be an Elf or a Dwarf (chances of another expression such as Human or Ork are either very low or zero depending upon which lines you feel like interpretting literally). A child born to an Ork and a Troll parent is roughly equally likely to be an Ork or a Troll (and is less than 5% likely to be a human).

But a child born to an Elf and an Ork parent is almost always born human, and in turn is 95% likely to goblinize at puberty. Same results are found for an Elf/Troll pair or a Dwarf/Ork pair, or a Dwarf/Troll pair (painful as that last one is to even contemplate it does happen).

---

Or at least, that's what I got ou of the SR2 main book's description of Metahumanity contrasted with the SR4 main book's description. Of course, there's little problems like the fact that the SR4 main book gets the number of teeth that trolls have wrong - so these numbers are highly suspect.

For example, the Elf/Dwarf pair is described as "always" producing an elf or a dwarf - but that's part of the sentence that talks about how there are no half-elves, so it's hard to tell if that means that specifically an Elf/Dwarf pair is an exception to the statement that a mixed race pairing "almost never" produces an offspring that isn't one race or the other.

Similarly, when the book states that the offspring of one parent from the Elf/Dwarf group and one parent from the Ork/Troll group almost always produces "a goblinized expression" (SR2, p. 34), I am not sure whether that literally means that the result is human which then usually goblinizes at puberty or whether it's just inexact terminology and they really just meant that the Ork/Troll genes won.

:shrug:

-Frank

Posted by: Draug Feb 6 2007, 05:34 AM

Not quite on-topic, but related: Is there such a thing as ork/elf/dwarf/troll genes? I was of the impression that they all had the same genes as humans.

Posted by: TonkaTuff Feb 6 2007, 06:43 AM

I can't recall exactly, but I think the way it goes is that all of metahumanity has basically the exact same overall genes. Blood and organs can largely be transferred freely among the different branches, as long as the types match, and they can reproduce among themselves, with the limitations mentioned earlier. But the genome of nearly every biological species contains a number of genes that (at present) have no discernable purpose. In the SR universe, these "useless" genes activate in the presence of a sufficient level of ambient mana - resulting in magical ability or effects, and expression as a paraspecies. Though which actual combination of these genes do what is still largely unknown, even to the 6th World's advanced genetic science. Which is why they can't (as of yet) select for magical traits or "cure" goblinization. While a combination of genes 'R' and 'K' may turn one person into an ork, in another person they might create a magician, or cause some horrible birth defect.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Feb 6 2007, 07:13 AM

You have to keep in mind that the different races are all different lines of the same species. Ork's and Elves are both homo-sapiens, and that is why they can inter-breed.

Posted by: Garrowolf Feb 6 2007, 07:27 AM

An interesting question: If it is based on the mana level then could you hit someone who has not developed yet but has the genes to do so with enough magic to cause them to change? Maybe someone gets hit several times with a stun bolt over a period of time.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 6 2007, 02:32 PM

QUOTE (Garrowolf)

Nothing official, but my intuition is yes and no. Sure, you could get them to change if you could expose them to a higher mana level, such as by taking them to a power site or maybe maybe exposing them to powerful ritual sorcery, but just bludgeoning them repeatedly with spells? I'd say 'no' to that part. They need to be exposed to a higher mana level, not beaten with the current mana level.

Posted by: Cynic project Feb 6 2007, 04:00 PM

QUOTE (Ancient History)

QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Feb 6 2007, 12:31 AM)

So, what you are telling me is that humans are the only race that give birth too all other races?And as such either the highest on the totem pole or the lowest...

Posted by: Ravor Feb 6 2007, 04:32 PM

Well since we are the only ones capable of surviving during the downcycle I'd say we are at the top.

Still, this brings up an interesting question, what happens during the downcycle? Will there be 'reverse goblinizition' or will the existing metas simply start giving birth to humans and die out naturally?

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 6 2007, 04:35 PM

I don't think there's any reverse goblinization; I think the metas just start having human babies, but I could be wrong.

Posted by: cristomeyers Feb 6 2007, 04:44 PM

I think they retain some sort of the genetic structure, only buried deep (hence the HGP missing it or mislabeling it as junk), so that when the mana level rises again, it triggers the Ork/Troll gene and people start goblinizing.

Of course, this is all pure speculation.

Posted by: lorechaser Feb 6 2007, 05:08 PM

How many teeth does a troll have, then?

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 6 2007, 05:12 PM

Where did that come from?
Anyway, I don't know the answer, but it's in the entry for Trolls in the SR2 core book.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Feb 6 2007, 05:31 PM

QUOTE (lorechaser)

How many teeth does a troll have, then?

Trolls have 34 teeth.

In the SR4 rulebook it is misprinted and says

QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 67)

A troll's ears are pointed, and they have two extra teeth - for a total of 32 - including prominent lower canines.

32 is of course the standard number of teeth for a normal human, so you can figure out from context that they are supposed to have 34. In previous editions, the number of teeth was correctly given as 34.

QUOTE

Still, this brings up an interesting question, what happens during the downcycle? Will there be 'reverse goblinizition' or will the existing metas simply start giving birth to humans and die out naturally?

That is also known. Each metahuman lives out the rest of its natural lifespan without changing and dies with its normal metatype intact, even with no ambient mana at all. If the metahuman has any children, they will all be humans. And if the metahuman dies, its corpse will slowly revert to a human corpse as it decays.

We can infer this from the direct evidence of the life history of the immortal elves, and the remains of various Earthdawn settlements. Also the results of metahumans living on space stations.

Someone carrying the genes that would allow for an Ork or Troll expression will be born a human if gestated in a null-mana zone, but may goblinize later if subsequently exposed to magic. A carrier of Dwarf or Elf genes who is born in a null magic zone will be born a human and will never express as a dwarf or elf even if he spends the rest of his life licking a mana storm.

-Frank

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 6 2007, 07:24 PM

didn't a SR magic book bring up the theory of genes being 4d constructs?

was it in sota:63?

Posted by: FrankTrollman Feb 6 2007, 07:48 PM

QUOTE (hobgoblin)

didn't a SR magic book bring up the theory of genes being 4d constructs?

was it in sota:63?

That would be Shadowtech.

-Frank

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 6 2007, 07:55 PM

ah, i do not have that. but im guessing that its echoed in SOTA:63's genetech chapter, because while i cant find the reference right now i know i have read it somewhere in one of my physical books...

Posted by: SleepIncarnate Aug 13 2007, 02:50 AM

QUOTE (Ravor)

Not necessarily, supposedly there's elves still alive from the fourth world, the last cycle of magic, since they don't really die from age.

Posted by: Wakshaani Aug 13 2007, 03:25 AM

I *think* that the Immortal Elves switched to human during teh downcycle, oddly enough. I know that, at the least, they didn't have teh ears and I'd *guess* that the rest of their body would adjust downwards, but, I couldn't find a quotation for that to save my life right now, so.

Posted by: neko128 Aug 13 2007, 03:55 AM

QUOTE (Wakshaani)

Besides the ears, I didn't think elves differed strongly from humans. They're taller than average, slimmer, etcetera, but other than gestation period, are there any other real structural differences?

Posted by: Cain Aug 13 2007, 04:03 AM

QUOTE (Wakshaani)

Not true. There were enough reports of "spike babies" (usually elves) that were born during the downcycle. Certain of today's "little people" may even be Shadowrun-style dwarves, minus the thermographic vision.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 13 2007, 04:10 AM

QUOTE (Wakshaani)

I recall reading somewhere that most of the immortal elves, upon seeing magic dwindling and no more of their kind being born, wove a final spell to alter their ears to a more human appearance. I have no idea where I read this as it was literally years and years and years ago, but I do recall it somewhere.

Posted by: Bull Aug 13 2007, 04:21 AM

Actually... We have a simple answer for what happens to meta's that currently exist if the magic "goes away". ANd that's Nothing.

There is no mana in space, and yet Metahumans can travel there. The only ones who have trouble with a null mana zone are dual natured creatures and anyone who tries to use magic. And that doesn't apply to your rank and file metahuman.

QUOTE

Well, SURGE proved that there is still something that can happen if the mana level rises. Regular old goblinization was a part of that (and probaly an increase in UGE type babies as well).

As for getting hit by spells, I doubt it. Spells, even high force ones, don;t increase the ambient mana levels much, unless you're talking serious Blood Magic or Tir Tangire level, long term, large area magics. Even then, I think it would require being in the area for a decent period of time before you'd feel the effects.

Bull

Posted by: Draconis Aug 13 2007, 05:55 AM

Ya with the mana level still rising anything could show up tommorow. Remember Drakes?

I would think exposure to a warp or high level domain for a time could definitely mess with you. The Ganges river comes immediately to mind.

Posted by: streetangelj Aug 13 2007, 06:35 AM

Damn, Bull scooped me on the SURGE effects. During the height of SURGE, some humans goblinized into Orks and Trolls and other races sometimes "Goblinized" into Metavariants. In fact I'm using that tidbit for the BG of one of my player's backup characters.

Posted by: NightmareX Aug 13 2007, 09:21 AM

In regards to immortal elf ears, Aina (and Harlequin I think as well) docked (sp?) their ears. That's in Worlds Without End IIRC.

Posted by: Ophis Aug 13 2007, 12:42 PM

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Aug 13 2007, 04:25 AM)

IRCC In Worlds Without End, it's mentioned that the elves basically bob their ears ad heal them up to look human. Yes they can still do some magic, think of the downcycle being the entire world is a rating 6 mana ebb, no one with magic 6 or less can do anything. The IEs with their double digit magic scores however still function fine and outlive the other mortal powerful mages.

Edit - damn beaten to the punch...

Posted by: apollo124 Aug 13 2007, 06:10 PM

I think it was in the Year of the Comet sourcebook, there was a post in it by Ehran the Scribe, on page 25 titled Wake Up Call. In it, he talks about the Awakening not being a "done once and over" process, but more of an ongoing process which includes more and different species as the mana level rises over time. Here's the main relevant quote.

"The Awakening has not ended. In fact, it has hardly begun. We are only fifty years into a process that lasts for millennia, a cycle longer than recorded history. This year is only a taste of the future, another small step on a long and winding path. A path fraught with both wonder and danger. "

Posted by: augurer Aug 13 2007, 07:27 PM

So is it possible to manifest magical ability if born in a low/null magic zone, and later introduced to a heavily saturated zone? Would something like the Cermak blast area constitute such a zone to be a catalyst for further UGE or magical ability manifestation?

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 13 2007, 08:00 PM

I don't think there's anything stopping that from happening, although it'd be pretty uncommon. I've just always figured that people have been carrying the genes/potential to be a metahuman or Awakened all along, they just didn't have the right context for those genes to express (IE, a mana rich enviroment). Which could go a long way to explaining why goblinization is rarer in the 2070s: There's already enough mana flowing around most places that anyone who's a common metatype is likely to express sooner rather than later.