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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Platelet Factory and Drain
Posted by: Scandalous Feb 11 2007, 03:18 AM
So if a mage has platelet factories and takes drain either physical or stun is it still reduced by one?
Posted by: Eleazar Feb 11 2007, 03:20 AM
Correct, but your also decreasing your magic attribute by 1 due to essence loss. While your at it you might as well tack on a cerebral booster and a sleep regulator. Get as much from the -1 magic as possible. Or, you could go cerebral booster and damage compensators.
Posted by: Scandalous Feb 11 2007, 03:38 AM
Eh.... I think it will be worth it with:
(A) Platelet Factory
Enhanced Articulation
Damage Compensator lvl 3
(A) Skillwires lvl 3
=)
Posted by: Glyph Feb 11 2007, 07:47 AM
Although it doesn't specify the type of damage, the descriptive text seems to be describing physical rather than stun damage. A lot of GMs might run it as only affecting physical damage.
Also, keep in mind that it only comes into affect when you have taken 2 or more points of damage. If you only take one point of damage, it does nothing.
It's still a nice piece of bioware, though, and its effects on mundane wounds can't be discounted, either.
Posted by: lorechaser Feb 11 2007, 03:19 PM
It just seems horribly wrong to me to allow platelets to kick in for drain.
But I can't see any reason they wouldn't.
Posted by: Blade Feb 11 2007, 03:30 PM
Because the drain is an internal stress and platelets only deal with bleeding ?
Posted by: Jaid Feb 11 2007, 03:31 PM
there is some grounds to argue it won't.
after all, you can't magic drain away, so perhaps drain is different enough from damage that platelet factories don't work.
Posted by: Scandalous Feb 11 2007, 03:37 PM
from description of drain ie blood coming out of ears. bruising. headaches etc I am thinking it would but hey I am conformist so popularity wins just wanted to see what everyone had to say on the subject.
Posted by: bibliophile20 Feb 11 2007, 03:43 PM
This has been my thinking too, in terms of physical Drain, that it's actual physical damage to the body that comes from channeling too much energy through one's self, sort of like a moderate electrical discharge: cells get fried and fun stuff like that, while minor blood vessels may burst from pressure. That sort of thing--small but systemwide damage--seems ideal for the platelet factories to be working on.
Posted by: fool Feb 11 2007, 07:07 PM
the peice of ware that mages must have is the pain editor..... no dp modifier for stun damage and no passing out from stun damage. Especially useful when combined with a adrenal pump.. inc. will etc.
Posted by: BishopMcQ Feb 11 2007, 07:16 PM
Or you could just port over Trauma Damper. Bump one box of physical to stun, or one box of stun away entirely.
Posted by: Serbitar Feb 11 2007, 08:01 PM
Anybody who uses RAW adrenaline pump is in serious problems.
Posted by: djinni Feb 11 2007, 08:21 PM
| QUOTE (Blade) |
| Because the drain is an internal stress and platelets only deal with bleeding ? |
what do you think internal stress is?
Posted by: ornot Feb 12 2007, 02:21 AM
I wouldn't have a problem with the platelet factories affecting physical drain. Stun drain is a slightly iffier matter, I feel, but if you don't treat them both the same then people will overcast "because physical is easier to heal".
IIRC the FAQ stated that there was no means to heal drain damage, other than rest, which would suggest that the platelet factories don't work.
Ultimately I think it's whatever the GM decides for their game.
Posted by: Garrowolf Feb 12 2007, 03:50 AM
I always thought of drain as sort of damage to the person's aura. It would heal and it had the same effect as stun so they were combined to keep it simple. If it is just damage to the body then medical tech should be able to fix the damage.
Posted by: Thane36425 Feb 12 2007, 04:06 AM
My view on this has been to look at Mana like electricity. At safe, meaning your Magic rating or less, the aura is the conductive element and the body is insulated from the raw Mana. However, channeling the Mana and controlling it takes effort. That strain is reflected in stun damage and would be akin to physical labor, like lifting an object. A simple little spell might be as stressful as lifting large book while a powerful one might be like sprinting down the block. How well you resist drain is just like your physical conditioning for exercise: the better shape you are in, the more less it wears you out.
Overcasting is when you exceed your safe limits. That channels Mana through the body as well as the aura. Just like electricity, that's going to hurt. However, a mage can use their skills to try to reduce that damage. The mechanic of that is harder to picture than physical fitness as described above.
Does that mean those devices can affect drain? For physical damage probably. For stun, I would say that depends on if the devices work against fatigue like that generated by running.
Posted by: Jack Kain Feb 12 2007, 06:26 AM
| QUOTE (BishopMcQ) |
| Or you could just port over Trauma Damper. Bump one box of physical to stun, or one box of stun away entirely. |
Trauma Damper? where in the book does that appear? Is it from SR3?
Posted by: Trigger Feb 12 2007, 06:31 AM
| QUOTE (ornot) |
| IIRC the FAQ stated that there was no means to heal drain damage, other than rest, which would suggest that the platelet factories don't work. |
Platelet Factories don't heal damage though, they simply lessen it. They cut the damage down by one if it is two or over. That has nothing to do with healing and thus not part of the ruling of the FAQ.
Posted by: Jack Kain Feb 12 2007, 06:40 AM
And I thought the FAQ refered to magical healing of drain. And checking the FAQ that is correct.
"No. Damage from Drain must be healed by regular mundane medical care and/or rest."
You can use a medkit to heal drain so should be able to use platelet factoies. Remember even a bruise involves broken blood vessels. Actually thats what a bruise is broken blood vessels.
Also its one point of damage and they had to give up a point of magic for it, and likely some other bioware.
Its much easier to draw the platelet factories at any injury then to try and think, when platelets are involved and when they aren't.
So it does come down to what does drain damage look like. Is it nearly invisible like a toxin or do wounds open and bruises appear on the mages body as result of the stress the body is under.
Posted by: bibliophile20 Feb 12 2007, 07:16 AM
| QUOTE (Jack Kain) |
| And I thought the FAQ refered to magical drain. And checking the FAQ that is correct. "No. Damage from Drain must be healed by regular mundane medical care and/or rest." You can use a medkit to heal drain. |
But then wouldn't Platelet factories be considered "mundane" i.e. not magical? (Unless you're considering Clarke's Law...)
Posted by: Blade Feb 12 2007, 07:22 AM
| QUOTE (djinni) | ||
what do you think internal stress is? |
I don't like to see it as external bleeding, and it doesn't have to be internal bleeding.
What I mean is that the GM can state that there's no bleeding involved, so platelet factory is useless or he can state that there is and so the platelet factory works.
Both of these posibilites make sense, so it only depends on what the GM wants.
Posted by: lorechaser Feb 12 2007, 03:17 PM
| QUOTE (Jack Kain) |
| Its much easier to draw the platelet factories at any injury then to try and think, when platelets are involved and when they aren't. |
Well, you already treat drain damage differently, so this is simply adding another thing to that camp, rather than creating a new camp.
I don't think I'd let it work. I don't see drain as cuts and bruises magically healing, but simple overstress on the body. I think someone that died from overcasting would be the "Their body just gave up" type, not "Massive internal magical trauma." More that your body just cannabilizes itself to power the magic.
Let's compare it to hunger, in my view. Platelet factories wouldn't protect you from starving to death. I see drain the same way.
Posted by: cristomeyers Feb 12 2007, 03:28 PM
Would have to depend on how your GM views Drain damage. If your GM has Drain as physical and mental exhaustion, then platets aren't going to help.
Posted by: Spike Feb 12 2007, 05:18 PM
I don't think it should matter how the GM views drain damage. The platelet factory doesn't say 'only if massive bleeding is involved'. It's cut and dried, if you take physical damage, the platelet factories can cut in to reduce the damage.
The real question is if the GM sees it as abusive and decides it won't work because it's 'cheating'. That was my first instinct, but...
You are giving up a magic point for this drain resistance. That can not be stressed enough. You INCREASE your need to take physical drain for a minor ability to abnegate a minor portion of it... Not so broken as all that.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 12 2007, 05:27 PM
Just to chime in, until a very clear FAQ ruling comes out I would say the platelet factory helps with overcasting physical drain, but not with standard stun drain. If it gets explicitly addressed in a FAQ I'll go with whatever that says.
Posted by: Eryk the Red Feb 12 2007, 05:34 PM
| QUOTE |
| I don't think it should matter how the GM views drain damage. |
You're not a GM, huh?
It most definitely should matter how the GM views drain, much like how everything else is affected by how the GM views it. Exceptions should always be made when something just doesn't make sense. If there is no bleeding, the presence of platelets really doesn't matter. So, if the damage doesn't cause bleeding, I certainly wouldn't allow the platelet factory to help. Whether we're talking about drain or something completely different. Often, in my game, drain does cause blood loss, even if it's only stun, so it might help with that.
But I probably wouldn't allow it anyway. Because it's drain, dammit.
Posted by: BishopMcQ Feb 12 2007, 05:46 PM
Jack--Yes the Trauma Damper was from SR3. It appeared in Man and Machine, which means there is a good chance it will appear in Augmentation. It used to stage away a light wound which was the equivalent of 2 extra successes on the Drain resistance test or never needing to roll depending on the Drain Code.
In SR4, I would expect that it just shifts 1 box of damage.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 12 2007, 05:51 PM
SR3 character creation process: "Okay, so I'm definitely getting a Trauma Damper and Enhanced Articulation. Now what kind of character should I make?"
Posted by: Spike Feb 12 2007, 05:57 PM
| QUOTE (Eryk the Red) | ||
You're not a GM, huh? It most definitely should matter how the GM views drain, much like how everything else is affected by how the GM views it. Exceptions should always be made when something just doesn't make sense. If there is no bleeding, the presence of platelets really doesn't matter. So, if the damage doesn't cause bleeding, I certainly wouldn't allow the platelet factory to help. Whether we're talking about drain or something completely different. Often, in my game, drain does cause blood loss, even if it's only stun, so it might help with that. But I probably wouldn't allow it anyway. Because it's drain, dammit. |
Actually... I am the GM most of the time I play games. Partly because I get frustrated with GM's that feel the need to jack around with everything in the books.
By your count, platelet factories should be nearly useless against burns too, but the game makes no account for types of damage. It's handwavium technology, it just works.
Let me put this too you again:
The mage makes a choice between being able to cast force 6 spells as stun damage with no advantage from the bioware or being able to cast for 6 spells for physical damage, of which he might be able to ignore one block, but never to the point of not being hurt by it (dependent upon drain tests...)
Which is actually better? That's right, casting force 6 spells for stun damage. There is enough evidence in the book to suggest overcasting causes bleeding that telling a player that platelets 'just don't work' is asshattery. Tell him he's cheating if you like, I'm cool with people making that call, I'm less cool with just making up a rule under platelets that suggests you can decide that a wound isn't bloody enough to cause them to work.
"Sorry frank, I know that heavy pistol did some serious hurting on you, but gosh, your armor kept it from penetrating, so it's just some cracked ribs and kinetic transfer damage, no actual blood involved. That bioware you payed for? yup, just didn't work on this one. Sorry, you just have to die this time. Sorry pal, maybe next character you can buy some REAL cyberware."
Rules are for a reason.
Posted by: Eryk the Red Feb 12 2007, 06:13 PM
I just don't agree. Which is fine. Different methods.
But see, none of my players would argue if i said that damage that causes no bleeding is not reduced by platelets. Because it doesn't make sense, and they understand that.
I certainly do "jack around" with rules. That's how I do things. I change and I tweak and I mold, so that at the end of the day, we're playing a way that suits us, maximizes fun, minimizes unnecessary work, and keeps the game going in a way that makes sense in our minds.
The most important rule is "If it doesn't make sense, change it!"
Posted by: Spike Feb 12 2007, 06:32 PM
My language might have been a bit strongly worded. I DO jack around with rules all the time, I tend to play fast and loose in a lot of games I run just to keep things moving. What I don't do is 'nerf' players. If a player ASKS me before hand I'll tell him how I feel about his monkeying about with the system like that.
I don't like making alterations to the RAW for what is essentially an 'edge case'... particularly one that involves a completely unrealated difference of opionion on wether or not overcasting drain involves bleeding at all. I don't like to run the game based on a thousand exceptions to the RAW, and I feel that is where this sort of 'ruling' can lead.
Posted by: Eleazar Feb 12 2007, 08:28 PM
The RAW doesn't make distinction between damage that causes burns, bleeding, bone crushing, etc. for ease of use reasons. The RAW rules are not realistic, and are there for gameplay purposes. The platelet factories say they remove 1 damage when at least 2 is done because that is the only type of damage there is. In Shadowrun, bleeding is just a visual way to describe the wounds of a PC or NPC. It doesn't have any effect on the rules. So whether damage causes bleeding is neither here nor there as far as RAW is concerned. If you are going to have different types of damage then I would rename the platelet factories "damage inhibitors" or "restorative nanites".
EDIT:
I do understand how you could say it only heals physical damage, but the fluff from the books has people bleeding from stun damage as well. To be clear, when I said different types of damage I did not mean stun and physical which are already included in the game. I mean things like burning, bleeding, breaking bones, etc. Under there rules that would all just be physical damage.
Posted by: Spike Feb 12 2007, 08:43 PM
Eleazar just summed up my opinion on it very well actually. I'm playing the game, so I use the mechanics as written whenever possible without worrying too much about if things make some sort of non-mechanical sense. Only when the mechanics stop making sense in and of themselves do I actually worry overly much about them.
I'm tempted to illustrate this with the current damage/penetration rules, but I think it would
A) be horribly confusing to the issue at hand
and
B) create a horrible sidebar converastion that could derail the thread...
Posted by: Jack Kain Feb 12 2007, 09:07 PM
| QUOTE (BishopMcQ) |
| Jack--Yes the Trauma Damper was from SR3. It appeared in Man and Machine, which means there is a good chance it will appear in Augmentation. It used to stage away a light wound which was the equivalent of 2 extra successes on the Drain resistance test or never needing to roll depending on the Drain Code. In SR4, I would expect that it just shifts 1 box of damage. |
I'll have to make sure my next street samurai character gets both the Trauma Damper and Platelet Factories.
Hopefully if it makes a comeback they'll work well together.
Posted by: lorechaser Feb 12 2007, 11:08 PM
| QUOTE (Spike) |
| You are giving up a magic point for this drain resistance. That can not be stressed enough. You INCREASE your need to take physical drain for a minor ability to abnegate a minor portion of it... Not so broken as all that. |
Well, yes and no.
Platelet factories are universally applicable. Mages tend to have lower Bod. Anything that reduces that damage is a good thing. So it's not like the only benefit they get is resisting drain.
Additionally, Platelet Factories are .2 essence. You aren't giving up a point of magic to remove a single point of drain. You're looking at another .8 (or .9) essence to play with.
You can put a pain editor (.3) or a cerebral booster 2 (.4) if you're hermetic, then take a cybereye at half, or a skill wires 2 to free up skill points.
Or there's the ever popular synaptic boosters 1, or 2 (if you go alphaware).
The point is, you're getting other benefits from the platelets, and there's a lot of *other* ware you can fit in a point of essence. I really don't consider any mage well built if they don't include a point of ware - there's so much you can get from that, and 6 magic is far from what it used to be. I can live with a 4 magic mage, buying 5 points, and filling one with ware.
Posted by: Narse Feb 14 2007, 02:51 AM
| QUOTE (lorechaser) |
| The point is, you're getting other benefits from the platelets, and there's a lot of *other* ware you can fit in a point of essence. I really don't consider any mage well built if they don't include a point of ware - there's so much you can get from that, and 6 magic is far from what it used to be. I can live with a 4 magic mage, buying 5 points, and filling one with ware. |
First off I agree with your point about the rest of the essence point.
with that out of the way: I'll bite.
I for one subscribe to the philosophy that a well built character has exactly the characteristics that the character should posses. That is to say I would not consider a mage who has a point of 'ware to be well built if the character had no motivation/reason to get the ware installed in the first place. For example it would be difficult for a shamanic type character who sees his/her magic as an expression of the spirits' desire for him/her to heal the world's wounds, to justify having an adrenal pump or cyber spur. For some of us, well built does not mean rolling pools of 12+ dice.
Posted by: Glyph Feb 14 2007, 03:19 AM
I don't necessarily agree with getting a point of 'ware for a mage, even from a min-maxing point of view. Mages don't really need any cyberware or bioware that badly, and they are spread thin already without pumping up their resources to get those goodies (and if they do pump up their resources, they are often better off getting foci instead of cyberware and bioware).
Most mages should be rolling 12+ dice, though. Spellcasting and summoning are both opposed tests, where you need an advantage in dice to succeed consistently enough to function in your role. Even a non-front-line utility and healing mage will want a decent dice pool.
Posted by: lorechaser Feb 14 2007, 05:39 PM
| QUOTE (Narse) |
| I for one subscribe to the philosophy that a well built character has exactly the characteristics that the character should posses. That is to say I would not consider a mage who has a point of 'ware to be well built if the character had no motivation/reason to get the ware installed in the first place. For example it would be difficult for a shamanic type character who sees his/her magic as an expression of the spirits' desire for him/her to heal the world's wounds, to justify having an adrenal pump or cyber spur. For some of us, well built does not mean rolling pools of 12+ dice. |
In general, I agree.
However, when the discussion comes to the point where numbers and balance are being invoked, any discussion has to focus on the twinked character, to some extent.
Because I can always create a house rule that allows automatic successes on binding spirits with double magic if you spend a point of edge, and then create a character who sees binding as something only to be done in the most desperate circumstances, and would never abuse that.
However, that character is not the one that you need to balance the house rule against *in a general sense.* In your campaign, if you're the only summoner, and your GM is cool with that rule for flavor, it is an awesome rule. But to discuss with the forum as a whole, we have to look at it across every reasonable game out there (emo's games don't count). And that's when we get in to pushing the mage towards a limit. Because we all know what's horribly broken - +2 IPs, +2 agi and +4 reaction from a 20k piece of ware that costs .1 essence is obviously broken. It's whether +2 IPs, +2 Agi, -2 bod is balanced for a 150k piece of ware that costs .7 essence is broken or not. And for that, we look at the twinks.
And I stand by the statement that any well-built mage spends a point of essence, because I'm a twinker at heart, and because without hyperbole, the internet as we know it would cease to exist.
Foci have a lot of limits, chief among them being max active and max bound, and focus addiction following along closely behind. But I know people disagree there.
Posted by: Glyph Feb 15 2007, 08:03 AM
I don't think any of those limitations on foci really come into play too much at char-gen. Usually, I would get a Power Focus: 2 and a Counterspelling (Combat) Focus: 3 for foci. Sustaining foci, I would hold off on until after char-gen, when I can get them at a Force allowing maximum spell effectiveness. For example, I would want at least a Force: 4 sustaining focus for Improved Reflexes (for +3 IP).
But you've piqued my curiosity. What exactly would you consider to be a good selection of 1 Essense point's worth of cyberware and bioware, for a starting mage?
Posted by: lorechaser Feb 15 2007, 07:18 PM
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| I don't think any of those limitations on foci really come into play too much at char-gen. Usually, I would get a Power Focus: 2 and a Counterspelling (Combat) Focus: 3 for foci. Sustaining foci, I would hold off on until after char-gen, when I can get them at a Force allowing maximum spell effectiveness. For example, I would want at least a Force: 4 sustaining focus for Improved Reflexes (for +3 IP). But you've piqued my curiosity. What exactly would you consider to be a good selection of 1 Essense point's worth of cyberware and bioware, for a starting mage? |
It really depends on the type of mage for me.
A pure caster, I'll go hermetic, pick up cerebral boosters 2, then a mix of platelet factories, internal air tank, cyber eyes and skillwires (I really like have a brilliant mage that can adapt to any number of situtations, so cerebral 2 + alpha skillwires 3 + platelet factories).
As a combat mage, I pick up either synaptics booster 2, or synaptics 1, muscle toner 2 (because my combat mages always have a gun to use for pure damage), and either platelet factories, internal air tanks, or skillwires (a pattern!
).As a schmoozer mage, it's cerebral boosters, tailored pheremones, and either voice mods, retinal mods, smuggling pockets, or the like.
Posted by: Ravor Mar 5 2007, 02:16 AM
Well for a mage I've always said the following cyberware was a must have @ Alpha Grade, with upgrades later...
Cybereyes (R3)
--Eye Recording Unit
--Flare Compensation
--Image Link
--Low-Light Vision
--Thermographic Vision
--Vision Enhancement (R3)
--Vision Magnification
--Ultrasound Sensor (Before anyone complains about Ultrasound Sensors being headware and not able to be installed in Cybereyes, let me ask you why can they install them into sunglasses and contact lens, but they forgot how to install them into Cybereyes after the Crash 2.0 since they used to be able to, null sweat..)
The reason for the Cybereyes is simple, you want as many vision mods paid for with Essense as possible in order to get los with your spells. Now, I wouldn't consider Ultrasound as counting as 'sight', but its just too useful not to have in my opinion. You might notice a lack of a Smartlink, well these eyes are prefectly legal so you won't even raise an eyebrow, and you can always get your smartlink hooked up to your shades.
Datajack -with Skinlink
I'm sorry, but even in 2070, I would not allow a set of Trodes to surpass what should be the universal cyberware. But then again I see installing a Datajack as a rite of passage of sorts, similar to getting your ears pierced. Plus no matter what you can count on having DNI to your PAN whenever you fragging need it. Worth it at twice the price I say.
Pain Editor
Oh yeah, no mage should ever leave home without this baby and should be willing to lie, cheat, steal, and rape/murder their teamates for this piece of bio. Oh and if you are a true Mage and not one of those hippy Shamans, you even come out with +1 Drain Resist. 
Sleep Regulator
Between this, No-Doze 2070, and the new Sleepless in Seattle spells in Street Magic all stacking (If I remember correctly) you can finally have the time to take care of your wards, research new spells, summon/bind spirits, do your Astral Recon, and even have a social life on the side. Does it get any better then that? Well, not counting the goodness of the Pain Editor of course...
Platelet Factories
If your DM allows this to work on Drain damage, and I'd call foul if they don't given the descriptions of Drain Damage in the Fluff then this is a good piece of bio to round off your Essense Point. If they don't then get a Ceberal Booster instead if you are a Mage, and I'm not sure what if you are a Shaman.
Posted by: Tomothy Mar 5 2007, 02:29 AM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| Just to chime in, until a very clear FAQ ruling comes out I would say the platelet factory helps with overcasting physical drain, but not with standard stun drain. If it gets explicitly addressed in a FAQ I'll go with whatever that says. |
But the platelet factory doesn't differentiate between physical and stun damage does it? So why should it differentiate between overcasting physical drain and standard stun drain?
(This is under the assumption that there hasn't been an errata to platelet factory)
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Mar 5 2007, 04:58 PM
| QUOTE (Tomothy) | ||
But the platelet factory doesn't differentiate between physical and stun damage does it? So why should it differentiate between overcasting physical drain and standard stun drain? (This is under the assumption that there hasn't been an errata to platelet factory) |
Because I'm making a distinction between stun damage from weapons which inflict damage of type "stun" vs. stun damage from fatigue effects. (See fatigue damage pg 155) I wouldn't let platelet factories mitigate fatigue damage, either. This is vaguely supported by the rules as fatigue damage is unresisted.
Physical damage from overcasting is definitely real blood-from-the-ears damage. But I think of regular stun drain as more similar to running a marathon than being punched in the face. (although there's no reason it couldn't be interpreted that way)
But as I said, this is just how it works in my head, and if there's an explicit FAQ answer regarding this then I'll probably just go with that.
Posted by: Ravor Mar 6 2007, 01:43 AM
Aye fair enough, although I go the other way simply because Drain is resisted whether its stun or not. (Well plus I consider getting a bloody nose from Drain as a major hit of Stun and not Physical Drain, but as I said, fair enough.)
Posted by: Steak and Spirits Mar 7 2007, 04:29 AM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Feb 12 2007, 12:51 PM) |
| SR3 character creation process: "Okay, so I'm definitely getting a Trauma Damper and Enhanced Articulation. Now what kind of character should I make?" |
Ha! A man after my own heart, I always did the exact same thing. I mean, really, why not?
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