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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Spontaneous Casting

Posted by: Just Pete Feb 12 2007, 09:57 PM

Shadowrun fiction is ripe with stories of those latent magicians who suddenly express their powers by casting a spell that they have never been trained to use. However, the rules don't provide for this - even the 'Latent Awakening' quality makes this expression a fully arbitrary decision for the GM. This also leaves completely uncovered the concept of the magician who manipulates mana to achieve a specific, but previously uncovered effect.

So, to fill the gap, I propose a set of guidelines that would allow any magician, latent or even fully trained, to cast a spell that they previously did not know. This 'casting on the fly' would be severely limited, as it could quickly become abused.

The rules:

1 - Casting a spell spontaneously requires the expenditure of one point of edge.
2 - Drain for the spell is at full force, not F/2. It's much harder to cast a spell this way.
3 - Due to the expenditure of edge, all spontaneous casting dice are subject to the rule of 6.
4 - Due to the danger of casting spontaneously, all casting rolls are considered to be cursed. It's easier to glitch when casting this way. Note that this stacks with any cursed quality levels the character already has.
5 – Hits on the success test are limited to one-half the force of the spell.

Example 1:

Dane is a budding hermetic magician and doesn't know it. At 10 years of age, he has no training, skills or spells. He has Willpower 3, Logic 3, and Magic 4. His family gets caught in a gang shootout, and he spontaneously casts a lightning bolt when his parents get gunned down.

Because he can't really control it, he casts at the max force he can manage, or force 8.

His spell pool is (Magic 4 + Spellcasting 0)= 4 dice. He rolls 6, 5, 3, 1 (lucky bastiche...). The six rerolls for 5, another hit. With a total of 3 hits, his lightning bolt fries a couple gangers.

Unfortunately, with the cursed effect, he only needs 1 '1' to cause a glitch. The gamemaster rules that he is affected by his the stun effect of own spell. He makes a Body 3 + Willpower 4 (3) test and gets only 1 hit, leaving him stunned for 4 rounds. That's the price for being so lucky with the dice on his first roll....

He also has to resist 11 blocks of drain (Force 8 [not divided by 2] + 3) with 6 dice (Willpower 4 + Logic 4) and gets 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 for 2 hits. With his Body of 3, that's enough to keep him alive, but only barely.

Example 2:

Later in his career, Dane has matured a bit. His stats have increased (W=5, L=5, M=5) and he's gotten some training (Spellcasting=5), and some skills (Centering, 1st level initiate). However, he's still missing a few choice spells. While raiding a pharmaceutical store, he needs to find that one drug...amongst the thousands in stock. He decides to extend his abilities to cast that 'catalog' spell he's heard about.

He doesn't want to kill himself doing this, so he's casting the spell at force 5, hoping to get enough detail to find the drug quickly. His dice pool is 10 (Magic 5 + Spellcasting 5), and he gets a total of 6, 6, 5, 4, 3, 3, 2, 1, 1, 1. The sixes reroll for 5 and 2, for a total of 4 hits – but he’s limited to 3 (5/2 = 2.5 rounded to 3). He now knows exactly where the drugs are, and doesn't waste any time getting them and getting out.

He resists 7 drain (Force + 2) with 12 dice now (5 Willpower +5 logic +1 focused concentration +1 centering) and gets 2 of each number for 4 hits. This highly experienced mage still takes 3 blocks of drain, giving himself a bit of a headache with what should have been an extremely simple spell.

What are your thoughts? Is this too munchkin, or not harsh enough on the drain front? I’d like to refine these rules, and also see how they playtest. The one rule I’m most iffy on is rule #3.

Posted by: bibliophile20 Feb 12 2007, 10:00 PM

I like it. I really like it. I might tweak it a bit after some gameplay, but it's definitely going into my house rules.

Posted by: Butterblume Feb 12 2007, 10:12 PM

On the first glance, I like it.
Like you yourself suggest, it might need a bit of tweaking .

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 12 2007, 10:16 PM

QUOTE (Just Pete)

Because he can't really control it, he casts at the max force he can manage, or force 8.

So who picks this number? Was that picked by the proposed house-rule, the player or the GM?

At first glance this looks like a great way of modeling beginning casters.

I am still extremely wary of the abuse-factor of the second example, where an already proficient caster is trying to use a spell that they don't know. But in general, I like the idea of it.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Feb 12 2007, 10:27 PM

I like as well, especially the balancing factors. I'm running a game w/ a character that just awakened w/ Latent Awakening. Think I'll give this a shot.

Posted by: lorechaser Feb 12 2007, 11:16 PM

My main concern is people abusing this to cast spells that case work well enough with a single success. The fact that it requires a point of edge is a pretty strong balance on that, though. In certain situations, I'd allow a caster to cast a spell they don't know w/o restrictions if they spent the edge point, so these are much harsher than I'd require off the top of my head.

However, as a codification, they're very nice.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Feb 13 2007, 12:24 AM

I like the increased drain and increased chance of a glitch as well personally. Keep people from relying on it to much, but it also gives a starting mage a bit more felxibility.

Posted by: Xenith Feb 13 2007, 01:12 AM

Thumbs up. Another house rule I'll alow in my campaign. Nice work.

Posted by: Demerzel Feb 13 2007, 01:29 AM

I generally try not to reply to a house rule thread that I don't like, but this is one of those places where as a GM I prefer to keep this kind of thing availiable to me to use as either a major event not to be taken lightly.

For example, the burn a point of edge as a get out of jail free card could be some sort of spontaneous casting.

Or use it as some sort of Plot device that sheds a new light on a character...

Then given that ;evel; os scarcity I'd find little use for a rule set to explain it.

Posted by: Just Pete Feb 13 2007, 01:32 AM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

QUOTE (Just Pete @ Feb 12 2007, 04:57 PM)

Because he can't really control it, he casts at the max force he can manage, or force 8.

So who picks this number? Was that picked by the proposed house-rule, the player or the GM?

Good catch here - I didn't explain this very well. I'm trying to stick with the existing rules for casting, as much as possible. So the young mage in example one, with magic 4, could overcast only up to force 8. I chose the full force 8 in my example, because I think it's logical - a kid who just saw his parents gunned down, who is terrified and angry, isn't going to hold anything back. Plus, it made for a better example as he knocked himself silly. However, he's also an exceptional example - see below.

This points out one flaw (as I see it) with my rules, which I'll illustrate in another example:

Jane Doe is an average teenager. Very average. She has Willpower 2, Intelligence 2, Logic 2, and Charisma 2. She is a latent magician.

One day, while hanging at the mall, poor Jane is accosted by a bunch of hoodlums with less than honorable attentions. In fear, she lashes out with her newly awakened power.

As a newly-awakened latent, Jane has Magic 1. Her bestest and most powerful manabolt is a force 2. She casts this manabolt using her spell pool of 1 (Magic 1 + Spellcasting 0). Assuming that she actually gets a hit, she can do 2 boxes of physical damage, possibly. Since she's limited to only 1 hit, the rule of 6 won't help.

Her assailant resists with his body or willpower. Assuming average hoodlums of the same stripe, that's 2 dice. Chances are, he'll take 2 boxes of damage. How's that nosebleed, chummer?

Jane now has to resist drain. Spontaneous manabolt has a drain code of F - in this case, 2 Physical (for overcasting). With her Willpower 2 + Attribute 2 = 4 dice, Jane will most likely take 0 or 1 block of physical. "My nosebleed's not as bad as yours!"

Not really the stuff of legend, here.

The limitation on overcasting puts a real damper on how powerful that initial spell can be. It's also very limiting for the budding mages who have just awakened and haven't built up their magic yet.

For this reason, I'm considering dropping rule 5, which would then allow a really lucky person to awaken and toss that killer fireball, through the use of the rule of 6. After all, it's theoretically possible to throw 10 6's in a row - I've actually seen someone come close, once.

However, this would also allow a more experienced mage, as Dane was in the second example, to achieve rather phenomenal effects with what should be a truly difficult task. Perhaps rule 5 should only apply after the initial awakening - that is, only to those who are aware of their power, and not to the poor little orphan he once became?

Posted by: Just Pete Feb 13 2007, 01:39 AM

QUOTE (Demerzel @ Feb 13 2007, 01:29 AM)

...the burn a point of edge...

Just to be clear - as I proposed it, rule one isn't 'burn a point', as in the permanent loss of a point of edge, but rather spend a point, which would be regained as per normal rules. As I see it, the experienced runner would NEVER burn a point of edge to cast a spell they don't know, unless it was specifically to save their life - which is already covered under the edge rules.

That said, this is just my version of this house rule. YMMV. If you don't like it, don't use it, or modify it until you do. It's your game.

Posted by: Demerzel Feb 13 2007, 04:03 AM

QUOTE (Just Pete @ Feb 12 2007, 05:39 PM)

Just to be clear - as I proposed it, rule one isn't 'burn a point',

Like I said I generally prefer not to chime in when I don't like a house rule. That is exactly why, the response is usually like you said if you don't like it go play your own game.

My general criticism is that you're taking away something special that as a GM you won't be able to use in a meaningful way anymore. Just to be clear - I was indicating how a mystical mana burn triggered by the last ditch burn an edge was the only way I'd be willing to justify allowing spontaneous casting. For anyone other than a latent awakening that is, and even then it would have to be a dire circumstance that brings about the change. Not some whimsy of the player and a Hiro Nakamura like constipation face.

It may never come up that someone is in a dire circumstance where you can use a spontaneous casting as an excuse for an escape certain death rule, but if you introduce a mechanic for it then you take something special away from that rare time you get to explain it that way.

My recomendation of allowing spontaneous casting to be a consequence of the Escape Certain Death use of edge as well as retained for plot driving was meant to be constructive criticism. I'm sorry you didn't see it that way.

Posted by: TheOOB Feb 13 2007, 05:30 AM

For the most part any spontaneous ability you could need can be fulfilled by a spirit. Assuming you can summoning a force 3+ spirit you can access an extreamly large array of abilitys with realtive ease.

I think that spells new magicians cast should primarly handled by roleplay. I could, however, see the creation of a metamagic ability that lets you do something a lot like this, though maybe a bit more reliable.

Posted by: ShadowDragon Feb 13 2007, 05:42 AM

Seems a little overpowered to me. Basically you're giving mages with a lot of edge every spell. While I like the flavor and might allow it in dramatic, plot driving moments, common application makes magic more powerful when it doesn't need the boost.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 13 2007, 03:06 PM

QUOTE (Just Pete)

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

QUOTE (Just Pete @ Feb 12 2007, 04:57 PM)

Because he can't really control it, he casts at the max force he can manage, or force 8.

So who picks this number? Was that picked by the proposed house-rule, the player or the GM?

Hmmm, I think my question wasn't quite clear enough.
Does your proposed rule function as:
1) All spontaneous castings are ALWAYS at maximum force of magic x 2, thus causing drain to always be physical.
2) The force is chosen by the GM, at the time of casting, to be anything up to and including magic x 2, or maybe just magic, or maybe just force 1, whatever the GM feels is dramatically appropriate at the time.
3) The force is chosen by the player at the time of casting. It is involuntary for the character, obviously, but the decision of whether to cast at maximum possible force is up to the player, based on what the player feels would be appropriate for their character and the situation.
4) Swordfish mustardball.

I understand how you picked the numbers for your example, I'm asking how they will be picked in the rule's implementation. Is the maximum force of magic x 2 always necessarily used, or can that vary? If so, who picks?
Thanks.

Posted by: Just Pete Feb 13 2007, 03:58 PM

1 - no. It just made sense for my example.
2 - yes, when it's appropriate. This would most often be the case for newly-awakened latents. This is the case for example 1, where I chose the force at max because it fit the situation.
3 - Yes, again when appropriate. This would be the case for more experience casters attempting to stretch their abilities.
4 - Always.

Basically, force would be chosen by whomever (Player or GM) is most appropriate to choose it. If the casting is involuntary, this would most likely be the GM. If it's voluntary, this would most likely be the player.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 13 2007, 04:03 PM

Check. Got it, thanks.
I really like this system for the newly-awakened.

For the experienced casters, I feel like there should be some inclusion of the Arcana skill (or whatever it's called, the spell design skill from SM). It stands to reason that a master of spell design can ad-lib a little bit better that someone who has no concept of how magic works. I have no idea how it should be included, but it seems like it should be in there.

Posted by: Just Pete Feb 13 2007, 04:11 PM

QUOTE (TheOOB)

I think that spells new magicians cast should primarly handled by roleplay. I could, however, see the creation of a metamagic ability that lets you do something a lot like this, though maybe a bit more reliable.

This is a good suggestion, and alleviates the problem I have with this being underpowered for those newly-awakened trauma situations.

Making the power a metamagic also give this ability another level of 'rarity' that would limit it's use, which would help curb the munchkin-ness that this would allow for experienced mages.

QUOTE (TheOOB)

For the most part any spontaneous ability you could need can be fulfilled by a spirit.

Agreed, through the sorcery power which I think you're referring to. However, this alters the flavor of what I'm trying to cover, which is, basically, experimental direct manipulation of raw mana.

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

For the experienced casters, I feel like there should be some inclusion of the Arcana skill (or whatever it's called, the spell design skill from SM).

I was trying to come up with a good way of limiting the spell force, other than just basing it on magic per standard rules. Limiting force to the spell design skill could be just the ticket. However, combining this with making the ablility a meta-magic might be too limiting for this to be effective. The Karma outlay for the metamagic and boosting the skill to a useful level would probably be better spent to just learn the spells in the first place - I'll have to look at that.

Posted by: Just Pete Feb 13 2007, 04:13 PM

Oh - and if anyone actually uses this rule in a game, please let me know how it goes! I haven't had the chance to actually use it myself, yet. I only get to play about once every other month or so, anymore.

Posted by: Spike Feb 13 2007, 05:29 PM

Sometimes, when I'm reading a thread like this and people start going on about worring how powerful something is...

I imagine some inhuman things designing humanity from the primeval clay and worrying that things like jumping and running are 'too powerful'.

"But Xriynax... at maximum arm extension he will only be able to reach eight feet in the air. Your 'jumping' ability would make that up to ten or even eleven feet! That is too powerful!"

"Ah, but if he 'Runs', as you called it, he will be moving two or even three times as fast as his fellows. Surely this is too powerful. Jumping he can only do slowly and awkwardly.'

"Very well, but... perhaps if you would recal that he tires easily when he runs it might not be too powerful then?"

Recall, anything you let the players do that you think is 'really powerful and possibly game breaking'... the NPC's can do as well, and there are a lot more of them.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 13 2007, 05:36 PM

Spike, that argument would be a lot more appropriate if the rule being discussed affected everyone. As it is, your argument is really only saying that with or without this rule, PC magicians will still be balanced relative to NPC magicians. As this is a rule that affects only a subset of the population, we have to wonder if that subset will remain balanced relative to the rest of the population.

In general, I see your point, but it doesn't quite fit here.

More like Xriynax arguing whether or not the ability to pee standing up is unbalancing.

Posted by: Mistwalker Feb 13 2007, 05:44 PM

How about, when they burn an edge point, they spontaneously learn the spell, and it is now forever more in their repertoire of spells.

As it would cost more karma to learn the spell this way, it would probably not be abused, but could allow a dramatic rescue/escape/moment.

Posted by: Spike Feb 13 2007, 06:11 PM

" As for this peeing thing, you do realize that you have given the males a 1.68 second advantage in situations involving combat due to the fact that they are not required to 'sit down?"

"You are obviously ignoring then that the seated position is inherently a more stable platform for projectile based combat. Beside, the males of the species would still be required to sit at least once a solar cycle..."

"I hate you"

Is it unbalanced just because it only applies to mages? I don't think so, really. First because any other mage can do the same thing. Second, mages can already all sorts of wild and crazy shit that non-mages can only scratch their heads at, that adding this 'any spell spontaniously for edge' isn't going to hurt anything. I mean, Joe Sammy needs to carry high explosives to blow up cars, but his buddy Jim Magewanker can just blink hard at them and 'poof'!

The way I see it, if Joe Sammy can pick up a knife, and without any training at all still gut someone like a fish three times a second, then having Jim Magewanker suddenly realize he can really wish he'd learned Sanitize and 'poof' instant sanitize spell for that moment... if badly.... it's about equal.

Edited to make it funnier.

Posted by: Eleazar Feb 13 2007, 09:40 PM

A few things I would change:
1. Drain is normal for the spell or maybe at most +1 or +2
2. Maybe something special for aspected magicians that specialize in a school
3. I am not too thrilled about rule 5.

It would be nice to hear more about the fluff pertaining to the spontaneous casting of spells. Obviously no spell formula is being used here. Is there anything in SR3 that could be of use? Anything notable in SR4 that we might be missing here?

Posted by: DireRadiant Feb 13 2007, 10:02 PM

New spells cost 5 karma, ~1000 nuyen, couple days of study.

Personally, if a PC went, "I need to use this new spell -right- now!", I'd simply say give me 5 karma. You know the spell, but all drain is physical until you spend the nuyen and study time to learn to control the energies better.

They don't have the karma, well I might let them go itno negative karma expenditure where the next 5 karma go to buying the spell. Buying ahead.

Posted by: Serbitar Feb 13 2007, 10:06 PM

ah well

Posted by: mfb Feb 13 2007, 10:06 PM

i don't have Street Magic in front of me to check, but doesn't it contain a spell design section? how would thise rule interact with player-designed spells?

Posted by: Garrowolf Feb 14 2007, 05:12 AM

What about a bonus or penalty for how close or far it is from what you know? For example I could see someone figuring out a variation on a spell they already have or a spell in a catagory they have alot of spells in. I could also see it being much harder to create a spell in a catagory you have nothing in at all.

I was also thinking that it might be easier to add a drain code modifier that you have already used then one that you haven't yet. Basically if you think about having a firebolt, it would be easier to create a fireball. If you haven't anything fire related then it might be harder.

Posted by: Ravor Mar 5 2007, 12:59 AM

Personally I like it, although I think I'd tweak it as thus...

(1) The Force is always maxed-out overcast.

(2) The Drain is normal.

(3) You may not add your Sorcerery to the skill roll. (I would however allow a Meta-magic that allowed you to use your I-Grade instead.)

(4) The Spell goes off as it normally would.

(5) The Rule of 6 does not apply unless a second point of Edge is burnt.

Posted by: Tomothy Mar 5 2007, 02:53 AM

I think this is pretty cool as a mechanism for latent awakening, though I think it's important to limit the spells the learner can actually use, ie if I was GM I would make my players buy the spells at normal karma points.

But I would also be interested to know when you think a character would stop using these rules and start using normal rules? Would it be on a spell by spell basis? Perhaps if a character paid for training in a specific spell (or spells) he would then be able to use it properly?

This way you could start a character with latent powers and the spells flamethrower and fireball. After the first few times he uses the spells he might realise he needs to get some training. He would then pay 1,000 nuyen to train each spell and he can now use them properly. The GM would then probably encourage the player to spend karma on spellcasting to reflect his characters growth.

You could potentially use the rules to show experienced mages teaching themselves spells without anyone to help them.