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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ rfid dust
Posted by: Platinum Feb 15 2007, 02:26 PM
here is the linky.
http://www.pinktentacle.com/2007/02/hitachi-develops-rfid-powder/
another article - Athletics ... who needs athletics. (rope ascender/descender)
http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2007/02/ask_nathan_ball.html?CMP=OTC-0D6B48984890
Posted by: KarmaInferno Feb 15 2007, 03:46 PM
With this tech around, there is no reason a corp would not put this stuff EVERYWHERE.
Like, in the bullet they just shot you with. Dug out the bullet? Too bad, there's RFID dust all throughout the wound channel.
They could simply mist the stuff on anyone who walk through a door. With a fine enough dust, many folks wouldn't even notice.
Every piece of gear would be RFID impregnated, right in the structure. You could mix the dust into the plastic that makes up most things. Making it useless as loot to sell to a fence. "Dude, you're trying to sell me something with a tracker, go away!"
-np
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Feb 15 2007, 03:48 PM
...#1, ...like security:
...add to non-lethal weaponry like pepper punch & smoke grenades
...replace the old dye marker banks use to thwart robbery with a canister of these.
...embed in clothing at apparel stores.to thwart shoplifting
...heck, embed in almost any product/packaging for that matter.
...embed in prison clothing.
...#2, saw this in the paper last night. add a few decades of advancement & it would be a great accessory to have with your Grapple Gun.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Feb 15 2007, 04:01 PM
| QUOTE (KarmaInferno) |
| With this tech around, there is no reason a corp would not put this stuff EVERYWHERE. |
Aside from, you know, the radio spectrum not being infinite and all.
~J
Posted by: eidolon Feb 15 2007, 04:07 PM
And aside from the fact that not all of us think that everything that comes up in RL should be in our SR games. 
Posted by: BishopMcQ Feb 15 2007, 04:15 PM
And of course, cost and how much broad spectrum use would effect the bottom line...
Posted by: cetiah Feb 15 2007, 05:12 PM
| QUOTE |
| And of course, cost and how much broad spectrum use would effect the bottom line... |
I suppose the next logical step would be to treat the frequencies of the RF spectrum as a finite resource and start calculating supply and demand models...
Posted by: mmu1 Feb 15 2007, 05:13 PM
What does it take to fry something like that? Would a strong enough electromagnetic field do it? Could one be generated by a portable device? Or would it take a jolt of electricity?
Though I agree with eidolon that just because something exists in RL, it shouldn't necessarily make its way into SR security, which is, by design, made to be somewhat exploitable.
Posted by: nezumi Feb 15 2007, 05:16 PM
I imagine the RFID chips must be exceptionally easy to burn out, then they're no more marked than anything else with unusual dust on them.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Feb 15 2007, 05:23 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||
Aside from, you know, the radio spectrum not being infinite and all. ~J |
Fortunately, the range on an RFID isn't infinite either.
There's enough frequencies for use on a local to mid-range scale, along with the stated 128-bit (probably better in the future) encoding, that they could be fairly liberal with the use of the dust.
-karma
Posted by: cetiah Feb 15 2007, 05:58 PM
| QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Feb 15 2007, 12:23 PM) | ||||
Fortunately, the range on an RFID isn't infinite either. There's enough frequencies for use on a local to mid-range scale, along with the stated 128-bit (probably better in the future) encoding, that they could be fairly liberal with the use of the dust. -karma |
If the dust could scan for an available frequency and choose an unused one we probably wouldn't have a problem. Otherwise you'll need a complex distribution arrangement.
Alternatively, the dust just needs to upload its info to the nearest Matrix relay and could probably do so every so often in short pulses on various frequencies. Once on the Matrix, the information could be recorded/manipulated/distributed in a variety of ways without any effective limits whatsoever.
| QUOTE |
| What does it take to fry something like that? Would a strong enough electromagnetic field do it? Could one be generated by a portable device? Or would it take a jolt of electricity? |
I'm pretty sure you could probably just match the frequency with your comlink to jam the signal. It should be "louder" than the RFID dust. Of course this would be quite an Electronic Warfare feat if all the dust wasn't transmitting on the same frequencies.
As for just frying out the dust altogether, I'm pretty sure the standard RFID remover should burn it out just as effectively. In fact, you could probably make a smaller one that would work over a small palm-sized area and build the thing right into a glove.
Alternatively, you could just spray-paint the area with that weird RF-blocking paint. Effectively, anti-RFID dust.
Posted by: Fix-it Feb 15 2007, 06:30 PM
| QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 15 2007, 05:16 PM) |
| I imagine the RFID chips must be exceptionally easy to burn out, then they're no more marked than anything else with unusual dust on them. |
very. microwave for seconds. no more chips.
it does very nasty things to microchips, which are about the right size to act as antennae.
Posted by: cetiah Feb 15 2007, 06:42 PM
I was under the impression that these were minituire RFID chips - smaller versions of the ones Shadowrun described. They're not. They store a 36-digit number but can only transmit that information a VERY short distance (inches?) and only when an external source of electricity is applied to power the chip.
So effectively you would need a chip reader to read these, but there's no reason not to assume the dust is everywhere on everything and everyone. So what we really have here is almost an explanation for the Star Trek -type tricorder. Almost. You could have an omni-scanner that scans an object, cross-references its info with Matrix data, and pulls up detailed information about that item and its history.
If you want to use the RFID dust, don't focus on the dust, but focus on the readers.
Posted by: nezumi Feb 15 2007, 06:58 PM
| QUOTE (cetiah) |
| They store a 36-digit number but can only transmit that information a VERY short distance (inches?) and only when an external source of electricity is applied to power the chip. |
That's what an RFID chip is. It's a passive antenna that responds to radio waves of the right frequency, using them to transmit information stored on the chip or perhaps even engage in some basic processing.
Posted by: cetiah Feb 15 2007, 07:06 PM
| QUOTE (nezumi) | ||
That's what an RFID chip is. It's a passive antenna that responds to radio waves of the right frequency, using them to transmit information stored on the chip or perhaps even engage in some basic processing. |
So the standard RFID chips don't have a power source either?
Posted by: Kagetenshi Feb 15 2007, 07:06 PM
Not quite. I thought that as well, but it turns out that RFID also includes some basic small active antennae that respond to specified signals.
But yeah, most of the useful RFID tags don't have power sources, since having a power source means they stop working eventually.
~J
Posted by: Crakkerjakk Feb 15 2007, 10:19 PM
There are two main types of RFID chips in the real world.
1)Passive- no power supply, uses energy from a reader to power the chip and relays info, but isn't constantly transmitting. Will be smaller, due to lack of power source. Look similar to how stealth chips are described. Also, because of smaller size and power supplies, able to store less information.
2)Active- Power supply. According to wiki, can last up to 10 years, broadcast range is greatly expanded, as is the amount of info that can be stored on them(including encryption.) Looks like regular RFID to me.
Please note that the RFID chips in the article, while small, don't have an antenna. Without one they don't do anything, and the antenna has to be decent sized (at least postage stamp size, currently) in order to be read from more than a foot away.
All information in this post courtesy of a quick reading of the wiki on RFID, and any errors are due to my own misunderstandings:-)
Posted by: kigmatzomat Feb 15 2007, 10:35 PM
Most RFID tags are passive "echo" devices. You send out a signal of a particular frequency and it echos back with some distortion. That distortion contains the data stored in the RFID unit. Secure RFID require signal that is already distorted a particular way; any other signal fails to generate an echo that escapes the RFID antenna.
There isn't a whole lot of difference in general approach between a SR4 RFID tag and those security stickers on CDs; both echo when hit with a signal. The difference is that every security sticker does nothing more than echo while RFID can be encoded with data.
Posted by: Thane36425 Feb 15 2007, 10:58 PM
If you are worried about that, have your mage learn the EMP spells. After the run, everyone turns off their toys, the mage casts the spell and fries all the RFID dust, and you're on your way.
Posted by: cetiah Feb 16 2007, 03:53 AM
| QUOTE (Crakkerjakk) |
| Please note that the RFID chips in the article, while small, don't have an antenna. Without one they don't do anything, and the antenna has to be decent sized (at least postage stamp size, currently) in order to be read from more than a foot away. |
Yeah, they have antennas.
If the ones in the article don't have antennas, a google search of the company name will reveal articles revealing their latest versions of these tiny passive RFID chips that have internal antennas (but no power source).
Posted by: Fix-it Feb 16 2007, 04:41 AM
please remember also that in order to get decent range (3ft+) you have to attach a spiral antennae board which is 1/2 sq CM. def. visible, but you COULD embed it into devices.
Posted by: Garrowolf Feb 16 2007, 06:20 AM
There was an article a few months ago on how to turn a disposible camera into a RFID destroyer.
Posted by: Crakkerjakk Feb 16 2007, 09:39 AM
@ Cetiah
No, the chips in the article are just like the Mu chips(the specs of dust on the finger in the picture) They are the RFID chip only, not connected to the antenna. In order for them to be in any way functional, they need the antenna, regardless of whether or not they have a power source
http://www.hitachi.co.jp/Prod/mu-chip/
Observe on the bottom right, a sample of the Mu chip with an antenna, embedded in currency
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