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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ There are no ranged attacks in astral space right?
Posted by: sunnyside Feb 15 2007, 07:54 PM
It mentions that you can use mana spells in the astral, but it also mentions that no ranged weapons work.
Somewhere in all that I assume the idea is that you have to be at unarmed combat range to attack something in the astral.
This to prevent someone from flying high in the astral and exterminating all dual natured criters at their leisure. (also rendering dual natured classes, to be release in the sr4 companion near pointless as the first astral wage mage on a scene coud pop them off trivially.)
Posted by: DireRadiant Feb 15 2007, 08:07 PM
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| It mentions that you can use mana spells in the astral, but it also mentions that no ranged weapons work. Somewhere in all that I assume the idea is that you have to be at unarmed combat range to attack something in the astral. This to prevent someone from flying high in the astral and exterminating all dual natured criters at their leisure. (also rendering dual natured classes, to be release in the sr4 companion near pointless as the first astral wage mage on a scene coud pop them off trivially.) |
Yes, this is why we don't have guns in the game so that people with guns don't just pick off everyone without guns from the nearest rooftop.
I'm fairly certain mana spells cast by a projecting mage will work on dual natured being at range, if it's a ranged mana spell.
Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 15 2007, 08:16 PM
remember, all drain in the astral is physical. so even a low force mana spell is bad for you health 
are there rules for casting spells at extreme range in street magic? i know there was some in earlier magic books for sr...
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 15 2007, 08:22 PM
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| remember, all drain in the astral is physical. so even a low force mana spell is bad for you health |
Are you sure? I know that's true in previous editions, but I was under the impression that got dropped in 4th.
Posted by: Jack Kain Feb 15 2007, 08:23 PM
Well on some level that makes sense what challenge are a lot of paracritters if the mage can easily fly above them in astral space and take them out. Even inside a building.
He could just stick his head through the ceiling and blast the dual natured critters from above or in the wilderness take out the hell hounds from in the sky.
Enemies can still shot back at you from the roof top. Or at least go behind cover you can't reach from the roof anymore. You'd also have to know exactly where they are and get to the roof.
Moving through astral space and poking your head through walls and ceiling is much easier.
Dual Natured Critters should have some way to defend against mages who can easily fly above them. The team can just hang back. That feature should work as an advantage more then a disadvantage.
Posted by: DireRadiant Feb 15 2007, 08:29 PM
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| remember, all drain in the astral is physical. so even a low force mana spell is bad for you health are there rules for casting spells at extreme range in street magic? i know there was some in earlier magic books for sr... |
Do you mena this p.173
Make Spellcasting Test
"Casting a spell requires a Complex Action. Th e Spellcaster
rolls Spellcasting + Magic, modifi ed by foci, totem bonuses,
bound spirits, and/or Visibility modifi ers."
or the actual penalties from the visibility tables?
Posted by: Thane36425 Feb 15 2007, 08:37 PM
| QUOTE (Jack Kain) |
| Well on some level that makes sense what challenge are a lot of paracritters if the mage can easily fly above them in astral space and take them out. Even inside a building. He could just stick his head through the ceiling and blast the dual natured critters from above or in the wilderness take out the hell hounds from in the sky. Enemies can still shot back at you from the roof top. Or at least go behind cover you can't reach from the roof anymore. You'd also have to know exactly where they are and get to the roof. Moving through astral space and poking your head through walls and ceiling is much easier. Dual Natured Critters should have some way to defend against mages who can easily fly above them. The team can just hang back. That feature should work as an advantage more then a disadvantage. |
That trick will work for a while, but the corps and savvy security forces would be prepared for that. Mundane security could easily see their dual-natured critters being attacked or just going crazy and know that there is an intruder. Vector in an astral mage with spirits in tow, and that high flying or wall peeking mage gets attacked on equal footing.
Critters have it harder. An astral mage could fly high and pick off dual natured critters without to much trouble, much like a sniper on the rooftops or the doorgunner in a helicopter could do. However, if you think this is being abused, put the target underground. My mage Bounty Hunters would often do this as back up for the physical team. Sewers are good for that because they are ready made and can be maze-like. Since it is surrounded by earth, the mage can't just pop out anytime they like. Also, whatever they are hunting probably knows the layout very well and could ambush them.
For example: I was GMing for a team that was tracking a Ghoul mage that lead a nasty crew of other ghouls and had association with Tanamous. His den was in the sewers and they really knew the layout. Now, I really didn't like the team's mage player because he was a real ass. So, he went in astrally thinking he was Barney Badass. He didn't think that once he was in there that it was like being in a maze with limited movement. Well, the ghouls moved to trap him in a tunnel. His option to get out was through manhole up above. He tried that only to find it warded. Caught between the ward and ghouls climbing up after him, lead by the astrally projecting Ghoul mage, he was in a nasty fix. He was really freaking out, so I let him breech the ward and escape, though the Ghoul mage did track him back to the team's base (he didn't try to evade pursuit), but that's another part of the story.
Posted by: Ancient History Feb 15 2007, 09:24 PM
In answer to the original query:
Ranged attacks do exist in astral space, but are rare. Specifically, there are no ranged weapons. However, attacks such as the Distance Strike adept power will function against astral targets for an astrally perceiving adept or mystic adept.
The only type of spell that requires a ranged attack are indirect Combat spells, and indirect spells are always physical and cannot be cast on the astral. All of the spirit or critter powers that require a ranged attack, like Elemental Attack, are also physical and cannot be used on the astral.
Now, let us not get into the Ghoul tossing topic. Again.
Posted by: BishopMcQ Feb 15 2007, 10:03 PM
| QUOTE (SR4 p. 184) |
| There are no known ranged weapons that function in astral space, so unarmed attacks, active weapon foci (see p. 192), and mana spells are the only options for astral combat |
No guns, bows etc for Astral space. That means all Astral combat happens at melee ranges (a few meters based on reach). Mana spells would still work by LOS. As far as distance modifiers for flying high and raining manaballs down on the competition, I'd eyeball it as equivalent to a sporting rifle without scope.
Note: This isn't meant to contradict AH.
Posted by: sunnyside Feb 15 2007, 10:06 PM
@ancient history: If mana spells work in the astral then ranged attacks in the astral are not rare, not even close.
@Thane. Of topic but I'm not so sure sewers have the "earth" effects most of the time. This is because usually they are just underneath streets and the like. Actually now I'm curious. Is there anything on how molested the earth can be and still have it's effect. For example lets say there is a hidden bunker in someones backyard with a trapdoor covered with some loam and a couple inches of dirt. Is it astrally sealed as well as being hard to spot physically? Would it only be sealed after a bit of time while that chunk of earth re-merges with the whole?
But on ranged mana spells it sounds like people think with RAW they are ranged as normal. I don't so much want to muck around with changing rules but ranged spells in the astral seem really different from guns and the like simply because there isn't any way to counter them barring being capable of ranged attacks yourself or at least projecting. And it does seem like it's just GMs being softies if any character playing a dual natured race doesn't get whacked rapidly as astral mages are often first responders.
Posted by: Ancient History Feb 15 2007, 10:13 PM
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| @ancient history: If mana spells work in the astral then ranged attacks in the astral are not rare, not even close. |
A ranged attack in this context is one that requires a ranged attack test.
Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 15 2007, 10:19 PM
| QUOTE (DireRadiant) | ||
Do you mena this p.173 Make Spellcasting Test "Casting a spell requires a Complex Action. Th e Spellcaster rolls Spellcasting + Magic, modifi ed by foci, totem bonuses, bound spirits, and/or Visibility modifi ers." or the actual penalties from the visibility tables? |
no, it was some special modifiers that was a option for when a mage wanted to cast a spell at someone at extreme distances...
Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 15 2007, 10:21 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) | ||
Are you sure? I know that's true in previous editions, but I was under the impression that got dropped in 4th. |
hmm, now that you got me to investigate i cant find anything about it either in the astral chapter or the sorcery chapter...
sadly i do not have street magic handy, but this is a very major change from older versions imo...
Posted by: DireRadiant Feb 15 2007, 10:25 PM
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| But on ranged mana spells it sounds like people think with RAW they are ranged as normal. I don't so much want to muck around with changing rules but ranged spells in the astral seem really different from guns and the like simply because there isn't any way to counter them barring being capable of ranged attacks yourself or at least projecting. And it does seem like it's just GMs being softies if any character playing a dual natured race doesn't get whacked rapidly as astral mages are often first responders. |
Really, how is this different from one person having a gun going against someone that doesn't have one?
Consider a rigger operating a drone mounted LMG from miles away against an unarmed metahuman target. Think about the BP cost to have this versus the BP cost to have magic.
Posted by: DireRadiant Feb 15 2007, 10:26 PM
There are few ranged attack tests, but there are attacks that are effective over range in astral space.
Posted by: Thane36425 Feb 15 2007, 10:35 PM
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| @Thane. Of topic but I'm not so sure sewers have the "earth" effects most of the time. This is because usually they are just underneath streets and the like. Actually now I'm curious. Is there anything on how molested the earth can be and still have it's effect. For example lets say there is a hidden bunker in someones backyard with a trapdoor covered with some loam and a couple inches of dirt. Is it astrally sealed as well as being hard to spot physically? Would it only be sealed after a bit of time while that chunk of earth re-merges with the whole? |
That's a good question. If a sewer were tunneled throught the ground rather than dug out from the surface, then the earth would be intact. This would also apply to most sections of subways system since many of them are mined rather than dug down from the surface, at least most parts of them.
As for dug areas, I haven't seen anything about that. Over time, that earth might return to "normal" as far its astral presence is concerned, though how long that might take is another matter. It could also be possible that an earth elemental coudl be commanded to restore the earth to its "normal" state too, though this would be rare since most times it wouldn't be worth the expense.
The bunker example probably would not count as normal earth. However, if they planted a thick crop of grass on top of it, the grass would be a barrier because it is a living thing, just like the canon "house covered with ivy." The entrance would still be wide open though.
I've always considered ranged spells possible on the Astral. The limiting factor was that the drain was physical. This made touch range spells more desirable. However, in SR4, it looks like drain is handled as per the physical world. Still, touch spells are easier on the drain and specialist spells like Slay Spirit are also an advantage.
Still, sniping at a corporation's spirit guards from a distance still leaves a signature, and you can still be chased by the other spirits and astral mages.
Posted by: sunnyside Feb 15 2007, 10:58 PM
@thane. Wait I thought in SR4 astral forms could pass through things like mundane ivy. Only those special Ivy's would block stuff. I kinda like the earth elemental idea as people doing something like that would likely use one meaning I wouldn't have to figure out how long it takes to seal.
The "touch spells have lower drain" argument doesn't hold much water with me. The drain codes for mana bolt are pretty low to start with.
@direradient. The drone with an LMG is a similar effect, but on a different order of magnetude. A drone can't be on the scene in seconds. It can't fly through a couple walls and bag someone in the foyer and armored glass/visibility modifiers and the ability to go for cover mitigate it. Also anyone can have a sniper rifle or something to counter it if need be. But in this case the opposing mage can come on the scene and unless the team has a mage on astral oversight watching the dual character they're screwed. I suppose a dedicated spirit might help.
And even with the mage or spirit they probably aren't going to be able to react fast enough to keep the dual character from getting popped. The opposing mage would zip in at some weird angle, drop a ranged spell, and than fastmove for the hills.
But maybe that's just the way it is. Dual natured characters in shadowrunnish circumstances are either mages or canaries (you know an astral mage is around because they're dead).
Posted by: Thane36425 Feb 15 2007, 11:49 PM
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| @thane. Wait I thought in SR4 astral forms could pass through things like mundane ivy. Only those special Ivy's would block stuff. I kinda like the earth elemental idea as people doing something like that would likely use one meaning I wouldn't have to figure out how long it takes to seal. The "touch spells have lower drain" argument doesn't hold much water with me. The drain codes for mana bolt are pretty low to start with. |
I'm not sure about SR4, but in previous additions that worked. Regular living plants could not be passed through.
The lower drain only meant that you would take less damage casting spells on the astral. In previous editions, one could win an astral battle but still be bloodied from casting your own spells.
Posted by: ornot Feb 16 2007, 12:19 AM
I really don't think that insta-death spells cast from the astral plane at dual natured critters (including those with sapience, like ghouls) are a serious problem. The drain when casting while astrally projecting is Physical, as has been mentioned before. So the mage is reaonably likely to either geek or severely injure himself casting a spell powerful enough to kill without relying on a lucky die roll (for example, IIRC ghouls get a boost to willpower, making them slightly harder to geek with mana spells).
The dual natured creature is constantly astrally perceiving anyway, so can easily take cover against a prolonged attack.
I don't see this as any more gamebreaking than the above mentioned drone being used to attack defenseless critters.
As for astral passage being restricted by living material, I think that only counts if the plant is awakened. It does still have an aura though, so will restrict LoS. In the example of the bunker, you'd be lucky to spot it was there, but once you did you could push through the inch or two of soil reasonably easily. If you want to know how long it takes before it can be considered part of Gaia; you're the GM. Make an executive decision.
Posted by: Demerzel Feb 16 2007, 12:44 AM
@ornot: I think you missed this about SR4...
| QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Feb 15 2007, 02:21 PM) | ||||
hmm, now that you got me to investigate i cant find anything about it either in the astral chapter or the sorcery chapter... sadly i do not have street magic handy, but this is a very major change from older versions imo... |
This was something that cought me at first as well. I've said it many a time, and I'll say it many more, but forgetting SR3- is the hardest part of playing SR4.
I think this is probably offset by the fact that the astral/physical barrier is made stronger in SR4. There is no grounding, no spells can cross from astral into physical, so the necessity for all astral drain to be physical is perhaps not as strong as it was in SR2 when grounding existed. Perhaps SR3 carried over Physical astral drain for flavor . . .
Posted by: ornot Feb 16 2007, 01:00 AM
Hmmm... It does indeed seem to have been dropped. I can't find any mention of it in any logical place. I could've sworn it was there.... I guess I'm just remembering it from SR3.
Still, my point stands, as to cast a very powerful spell (one hit kill) a mage would in all likelyhood have to overcast.
Posted by: Crusher Bob Feb 16 2007, 02:30 AM
Force 7 and force 9 manabolts are pretty easy to resist and will generally drop the target every time. If you are really concerned about the drain, hit them with a force 9 stun bolt, then just drop down and kick them to death (they are dual natured, even when unconscious).
Posted by: BishopMcQ Feb 16 2007, 02:33 AM
RE: Physical vs Stun Drain from casting
| QUOTE (SR4 @ p 174) |
| Drain damage for spells is Stun damage unless overcasting. |
Posted by: kzt Feb 16 2007, 04:14 AM
| QUOTE (BishopMcQ) |
| No guns, bows etc for Astral space. That means all Astral combat happens at melee ranges (a few meters based on reach). |
I've often wondered about a spear gun, with the bolt attached by a cord to the shooters wrist. . .
Posted by: Serbitar Feb 16 2007, 04:58 AM
In SR4 drain is not necessarily physical in astral space.
Posted by: Aaron Feb 16 2007, 12:52 PM
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| In SR4 drain is not necessarily physical in astral space. |
What he said.
I'm of the opinion that drain in astral space was physical to balance the ability to ground spells through dual-natured things. I also seem to recall being able to cast mana spells at targets not in astral space, but I could be on the crack.
Posted by: Demerzel Feb 16 2007, 04:23 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| I also seem to recall being able to cast mana spells at targets not in astral space, but I could be on the crack. |
Yes, that's the crack talking.
You can only cast manaspells while astrally projecting. No spell may cross the physical/astral barrier.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Feb 16 2007, 07:15 PM
You could pick up your team mate and throw him at the enemy.
That would work.
-karma
Posted by: sunnyside Feb 16 2007, 07:52 PM
| QUOTE (KarmaInferno) |
| You could pick up your team mate and throw him at the enemy. |
Is that the "thrown ghoul" thing someone else said not to bring up? I can see where that could raise issues.
Actually in order to get back at astral mages are there any technomany things a char could do? For example they have that bacteria that hurts mages right? Could you somehow incorporate that into a long range firearm? Some edition had dual natured ivy that was fairly nasty. Could that be incorporated into a character somehow? (either as personal defense or as a whip).
Also it sounds like mana barriers can be cast on either the physical or astral planes. So could you cast a mana barrier on a person in the astral so it wouldn't show up in the physical world?
Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 16 2007, 08:06 PM
hmm, a painball gun where the balls are filled with FAB3
Posted by: ornot Feb 16 2007, 09:46 PM
But knowing how tricky bacteria are to handle you'll either be hurling paintballs of dead bugs, or leaking FAB3 all over yourself and everywhere you go.
Posted by: sunnyside Feb 16 2007, 10:14 PM
Well most real bacteria just require a little air and something augar like to be happy(and not always the air!). However I recal something or other about the magic bacterias being an extra pain.
At the least I'd think you could get a personal pack and go after the mages and spirits ghostbusters style.
But you'd need at least paintball range against mages. Preferably more. Projectiles could also be a little larger. For example a SWAT type gas canister/grenade launcher designed to disperse the buggers.
(Essentially I'm figureing that RAW mages can cast at range and so looking for ways to mitigate that.)
Also tinted windows are a must.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Feb 16 2007, 10:44 PM
| QUOTE |
| Is that the "thrown ghoul" thing someone else said not to bring up? I can see where that could raise issues. |
Not at all. Throwing ghouls can get icky. They don't wash, you know.
Troll tossing dwarf at spirit, though, that's just comedy.
| QUOTE |
| But knowing how tricky bacteria are to handle you'll either be hurling paintballs of dead bugs, or leaking FAB3 all over yourself and everywhere you go. |
This is why you need a squirrel launcher.
-karma
kinda silly today...
Posted by: ornot Feb 17 2007, 12:38 AM
Sorry Sunnyside, but bacteria come in a great many forms and flavours. What will be perfectly adequate for maintaining one species will be fatal to another, and by no means will most be happy on agar with a little air. Many bacteria are killed on exposure to air, and the vast majority can be quite picky about what media they will grow on or in (if one can even isolate them in the first place).
Frankly, as a microbiologist I find the whole concept of FAB3 laughable, but my point was principally that if you have hermetically sealed paintballs the bugs are going to be inert when you fire them (even if they can form spores, it'll take them a while to become vegetative again). Regardless it's remarkably easy to get contaminated when working with bacteria, so you'll wind up leaving a trail of FAB3 everywhere you go (it is described as airborne, so we can legitimately assume that it can survive in air in droplets of water or stuck to motes of dust).
Frankly the question of astral mages being invulnerable has been raised in other threads. As a GM, it's a cheap (and unfair) trick to harry a party of mundane PCs, and if a PC is trying it on NPCs, all it takes is an NPC mage to turn up, or even a wandering free spirit hungry for karma.
Posted by: hyzmarca Feb 17 2007, 01:33 AM
There is a little tool that will always prevent an high-flying astral mage from bombing a dual-natured creature. It is rather primitive but quite effective. It is called a ceiling. Perhaps you've heard of it?
Remember that spellcasting requires line-of-sight. Low ceilings put line-of-sight altitude within arms reach.
Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 17 2007, 04:23 AM
well one scenario was a mage bombing paracritters.
my guess was about hunting wild ones...
still, someone doing that may attract the attention of something far nastier, like say a free nature spirit, or maybe some dragon or similar with a preservationist attitude?
Posted by: Sir_Psycho Feb 17 2007, 05:45 AM
So what if you have a bow weapon focus? They work on the astral, right?
Posted by: Demerzel Feb 17 2007, 06:09 AM
You gonna throw that bow at me? Arrows would pass through an astral form.
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