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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Why does the Hacker have ar-gloves?
Posted by: MITJA3000+ Feb 16 2007, 10:12 AM
I mean, he's got the commlink implanted, so can't he just use his mind to control AR instead of those gloves?
Posted by: Trigger Feb 16 2007, 10:23 AM
Because he does not have a tactile connection with AR....AR gloves can also be used to send information on what you are holding (it's size, weight, shape, texture) and there is no other way to do that with a standard commlink or an implanted DNI comm. AR gloves are input as much as they are output devices.
Posted by: The Jopp Feb 16 2007, 11:11 AM
Tactile perception can also be applied through a Simsense module.
Posted by: TBRMInsanity Feb 16 2007, 01:12 PM
I'm sure that the Matrix book is going to have AR cyberware so that the Hacker can always feel like they are in the matrix.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Feb 16 2007, 03:48 PM
All senseware needed for AR is included in the main book.
Posted by: lorechaser Feb 16 2007, 03:49 PM
The gloves have a built-in massager that prevents carpal tunnel.
Posted by: BishopMcQ Feb 16 2007, 04:25 PM
Because the commlink in his head is his work link and he is saving up for a public link that will run in Active mode while his implant runs hidden.
Posted by: Demerzel Feb 16 2007, 07:11 PM
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| Tactile perception can also be applied through a Simsense module. |
I'm highly curious why people think this. Can you cite your source?
Sim module allows you to receive Simsense and VR. Not AR, I don't know where anyone should think that it gives you AR. It's an all or nothing thing, they override your motor functions if you're using your sim module you're a limp noodle.
Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 16 2007, 08:10 PM
only if the RAS override is turned on. hell, you can experience full vr that way even...
page 209, last section under augmented reality. it specifically states that the simplest way to use AR is via simsense.
Posted by: 2bit Feb 16 2007, 09:49 PM
| QUOTE (Trigger) |
| Because he does not have a tactile connection with AR....AR gloves can also be used to send information on what you are holding (it's size, weight, shape, texture) and there is no other way to do that with a standard commlink or an implanted DNI comm. AR gloves are input as much as they are output devices. |
Interesting thought. . .
| QUOTE (SR4) |
| These gloves are also able to provide basic information regarding touched or held items, such as weight, temperature, and hardness. |
I always interpreted this to mean the gloves provide temperature, hardness, and weight sensations on virtual held objects to the user, but I see what it means now. There's a sensor in there that can just measure and record basic data on physical objects.
| QUOTE (Demezrel) |
| I'm highly curious why people think this. Can you cite your source? Sim module allows you to receive Simsense and VR. Not AR, I don't know where anyone should think that it gives you AR. It's an all or nothing thing, they override your motor functions if you're using your sim module you're a limp noodle. |
There really is very little point to AR gloves. it's more expensive than buying a sim module + trodes, and less versatile. As someone said in the last thread on this topic, though, it's less dangerous if you get hacked.
Posted by: Demerzel Feb 17 2007, 12:18 AM
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| only if the RAS override is turned on. hell, you can experience full vr that way even... page 209, last section under augmented reality. it specifically states that the simplest way to use AR is via simsense. |
That's pretty funny then because you can't buy a sim module that allows you to do that. If you buy a sim module you have to hack it with a hardware + logic (5, 1 hour) extended test, at the users own risk.
See p 318, entry for Sim module.
Add that one to the Eratta then as soon as the next printing comes out. So the easiest and most common way to access AR acording to page 209 is to have an item you can't buy.
Posted by: 2bit Feb 17 2007, 04:07 AM
Its for full immersion only 
Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 17 2007, 04:20 AM
2bit's right, the text right before the bit about hacking out the RAS talks about it only coming into effect under VR or other full immersion simsense.
AR can in no way be said to be full immersion...
Posted by: Demerzel Feb 17 2007, 05:54 AM
The Sim Module is for Full Immersion only. The text indicates that it allows the user to directly experience simsense programs and virtual reality. Nowhere does the sim module allow for partial immersion simsense.
| QUOTE (2bit) |
| Moodchip BTLs, for example, are emotive track only. |
As it stands Sim Module only allows for Full Immersion Sim and VR. If you want full 5 sense interaction for AR you need:
Image Link (In eyes)
Sound Link (In ears)
Taste Booster
Olfactory Booster
Touch Link
The gloves give you the benefit of the Touch Link through your hands only. That's why they are there
The text on p209 is contradictory to the information located in the equipment section. Either the final paragraph should be striken as inconsistant, or the Sim Module should have partial imerssion added in. However I don't think that partial imersion is as intended.
Posted by: Sir_Psycho Feb 17 2007, 05:59 AM
I didn't know you could Taste and Smell Augmented Reality.
Posted by: Demerzel Feb 17 2007, 06:16 AM
The Taste Booster and the Olfactory Booster act as AR interfaces as per their descriptions. Both p331.
Posted by: djinni Feb 17 2007, 08:28 PM
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| The Taste Booster and the Olfactory Booster act as AR interfaces as per their descriptions. Both p331. |
yep yep this is the basis I have for my Virtual reality that is the real world overlayed, on top of itself recorded and replayed via BTL...
for the BTL junky on the go...
Posted by: The Jopp Feb 17 2007, 11:06 PM
| QUOTE (Demerzel) | ||
That's pretty funny then because you can't buy a sim module that allows you to do that. If you buy a sim module you have to hack it with a hardware + logic (5, 1 hour) extended test, at the users own risk. |
Eh, No. THe only reason to modify the sim module is for HOTSIM. Normal AR and VR Simsense is with the Sim Module.
Regular AR and VR uses unmodified simsense signals from a sim module and only BTL and Hotsim uses the overridden safety features of a hotsimmed sim module.
Posted by: WhiskeyMac Feb 17 2007, 11:12 PM
Does the Touchlink do the same thing as AR Gloves then? I've always been confused on what exactly that little piece of cyberware does.
I thought the Sim Module was for anything dealing with simsense, either full immersion (like VR or simchips) or partial (like AR overlays).
Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 17 2007, 11:32 PM
the touchlink iirc enables you to feel virtual touches. like say if someone sendt you a huggy bear style message, you would be able to feel said hug.
Posted by: WhiskeyMac Feb 17 2007, 11:36 PM
But does the touchlink also do the same thing that the AR gloves do with the weight, density, etc.? Or is that feature specifically reserved for the AR gloves?
Posted by: Trigger Feb 18 2007, 12:03 AM
| QUOTE (WhiskeyMac) |
| But does the touchlink also do the same thing that the AR gloves do with the weight, density, etc.? Or is that feature specifically reserved for the AR gloves? |
IMO I don't think so. The touch link is the communication of digital information into your nerve system (aka if the input says that is 32 degrees outside you will feel like it is 32 degrees outside, even if it is not.). The touchlink allows tactile information inputted usually to the user through his PAN to actually be felt. Skinlink (sometimes confused for touchlink) allows a metahuman to use his own electrical current around his body as a means of communicating with other skinlinked devices, such as two runners with skinlink touching each others hand and being able to have a conversation through the link that can in no way be jammed or intercepted in any way.
Posted by: Demerzel Feb 18 2007, 02:34 AM
| QUOTE (The Jopp) | ||||
Eh, No. THe only reason to modify the sim module is for HOTSIM. Normal AR and VR Simsense is with the Sim Module. Regular AR and VR uses unmodified simsense signals from a sim module and only BTL and Hotsim uses the overridden safety features of a hotsimmed sim module. |
Well, if you believe that then you must have ignored the second half of the Sim Module Description where it gives the OTHER case where you would modify it. Or your selectively remembering it. But basically yours is a false statement.
| QUOTE (WhiskeyMac) |
| Does the Touchlink do the same thing as AR Gloves then? |
Basically yes, and more, it is more like AR gloves for your whole body. It provides the sense of touch virtually, the sense of touch is what conveys weight, temperature, and hardness so since that is what the AR gloves provides that's your answer.
Posted by: Trigger Feb 18 2007, 03:00 AM
| QUOTE (Demerzel) | ||
Basically yes, and more, it is more like AR gloves for your whole body. It provides the sense of touch virtually, the sense of touch is what conveys weight, temperature, and hardness so since that is what the AR gloves provides that's your answer. |
But touchlink does not work as an input like AR gloves do, only in the same output function. Though the description of the AR gloves is vague, I have seen it generally agreed upon that the gloves can also measure the weight, size, hardness, and temperature of what they are holding and transmit that data to someone else. I don't think touchlink has that same capability, but I may be wrong.
Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 18 2007, 03:45 AM
| QUOTE (demerzel) |
| But basically yours is a false statement. |
its a different interpetation of the text, not a false statement. atleast not until some update to the faq or similar comes out that saying that you need to hack the simsense module to experience AR while doing other stuff...
something that btw goes against the grain of the whole idea of simsense (via trode or implant) being the most effective way of accessing AR. this because AR is specifically there to augment your day to day life. how can it do so if you go "sack of bones" every time you access it?
in essence, do not go about calling someone else's interpretation of the rules a false statement just because its different from your interpretation.
Posted by: Demerzel Feb 18 2007, 05:08 PM
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| Eh, No. THe only reason to modify the sim module is for HOTSIM. |
This statement is false. If you read the description of the Sim Module it gives two methods of modifying the item. One to allow Hot Sim, one to disable the RAS overide. To claim that there is only one reason to modify it when in fact there are two is false.
Do you claim it is a valid interpretation to say that the second method is not in the rules?
| QUOTE (Trigger) |
| Though the description of the AR gloves is vague, I have seen it generally agreed upon that the gloves can also measure the weight, size, hardness, and temperature of what they are holding and transmit that data to someone else |
I see what you mean here. If you use the AR gloves while holding a real physical object certain properties could be read out on a data display of sorts... That's interesting, I imagined that that last sentance was regarding virtual items not physical items.
Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 18 2007, 07:45 PM
| QUOTE |
| Do you claim it is a valid interpretation to say that the second method is not in the rules? |
no, but nor is that the statement made.
what is made is a statement about why someone would want to modify a simsense module. not about what in the rules or not...
Posted by: Demerzel Feb 18 2007, 09:47 PM
So your claim is that he meant to say, the only reason someone would want to modify a sim module is for hot sim, and that he just forgot the want part?
Then the part of the book where it says that a BTL addict overrides the RAS override to allow them to experience BTL Moodchips without being a limp noodle is not a want it is a imperative of the addiction and since noone wants to be addicted than noone wants to override the RAS system and therefore he mad a valid interpretation?
Sorry, he claimed that the second part of the modifications didn't exist, and he was incorrect.
Posted by: The Jopp Feb 19 2007, 09:03 AM
[QUOTE=Demerzel]
Sorry, he claimed that the second part of the modifications didn't exist, and he was incorrect. [/QUOTE]
My apologies, i meant that it was not neccessary to modify the Sim module for safe AR use. The only reason for modding a Sim module is for Hot-Sim and BTL.
Page 318 SR4
[QUOTE]It is possible to modify a sim module to allow the
user to experience hot sim (p. 229) and BTLs (p. 250) with a
Hardware + Logic (10, 1 hour) Extended Test, but this also
makes the user more vulnerable to Black IC programs [/QUOTE].
Ok, so the above says that a modification of the Sim Module is needesd to use BTL and Hotsim.
Page 318 SR4
[quote] As a safety precaution, sim mods override your motor
functions while you are fully immersed in VR/simsense, so
that you don’t blindly thrash around in the real world and
potentially injure yourself or break things. [QUOTE]
And here it also says that while using VR and SIMSENSE the motor functions are turned off.
Page 208 SR4 (Augmented Reality)
[QUOTE]Your commlink accesses Matrix data from the wireless nets
around you, feeding you the results via simsense or any number
of interface devices. AR sensory input is specifi c to each
user—while you and your buddy can both access the menu icon
“displayed” outside a restaurant, only you will hear the ringtone
or feel the slight buzz that signals an incoming call.[/QUOTE]
The above spells out rather clearly that simsense IS part of the AR experience.
Now, i can agree that the rules are rather vague on the issue as it is not clearly spelled out that Sim Modules work with AR but why wouldn't it. It is basically a toned down version of VR.
Ok, this should settle most things under AR (page 209 SR4)
[QUOTE]The easiest and most common way to get your AR fi x,
though, is through simsense. You need a sim module for your
commlink to interpret the signals and feed you the data via a
cyberware simrig, worn simrig, trode net, or datajack.[/QUOTE]
Posted by: Demerzel Feb 19 2007, 02:54 PM
@The Joop
I can see where you're missing my point because it may be dificult to pick it up with a brief reading of the thread. So allow me to sum up.
What I've said above is that the final paragraph of the augmented reality section p209 should be stricken as inconsistant with the remainder of the document. This is because no other part of the document supports the idea of partial simsense, and in fact contradicts it.
For example, the description of the Sim Module does not in any way indicate that it is useable for AR, it is a Simsense and VR tool. Infact it indicates that if you use it and want to be anything other than a wet noodle you have to break it.
When you claim that it is only for full immersion instead of partial simsense then I have to say that is contradicted by the text under the BTL/Moodchip section. If you could have partial simsense, that is to say if it were possible, why would you need to disable the RAS override to use a moodchip while walking around and experienceing the world, you could just use the emotive track in partial simsense and have no problem.
There exist single sense input devices, namely: Image Link, Sound Link, Taste Booster, Olfactory Booster, and Touch Link. So that same augmented reality section appears to be developed and missed these logical inconsistancies, and I can see how that can happen easily given the scale of a document like SR4, and the number of authors tasked to produce it.
Posted by: The Jopp Feb 19 2007, 03:14 PM
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| For example, the description of the Sim Module does not in any way indicate that it is useable for AR, it is a Simsense and VR tool. Infact it indicates that if you use it and want to be anything other than a wet noodle you have to break it. |
Yes, there you have it, a SIMSENSE tool. And the most efficient way of getting your simsense fix in AR is by the SIM MODULE.
The only thing they do say that in order to be able to move your limbs in VR is to modify the sim module - it says NOTHING about NOT being able to move by using the sim module in AR mode.
By default it indicates that you can move around while using AR simsense but for your own protection while in VR you cannot move. IF you want to be able to move in VR THEN you have to hack the sim module to allow it.
Posted by: 2bit Feb 19 2007, 04:04 PM
Unfortunately, I think now that the rules allow for both interpretations. All evidence for both is circumstantial, as far as I can tell, but Demerzel's interpretation seems to be the path of least resistance. Eliminate using sim modules for AR, and the purpose of a lot of other gear becomes more clear.
It also explains another thing that's been bugging me: why would a smartlink require an image link, when it could just as easily use your sim module?
Posted by: Demerzel Feb 19 2007, 05:32 PM
| QUOTE (2bit @ Feb 19 2007, 08:04 AM) |
| Eliminate using sim modules for AR, and the purpose of a lot of other gear becomes more clear. |
This is the crux of the issue. I once thought that there should be this simple situation of allowing partial simsense, however it negates a lot of other equipment and fails completely when compared to other parts of the game.
| QUOTE (The Joop) |
| And the most efficient way of getting your simsense fix in AR is by the SIM MODULE. |
You can't argue against a proposal to strike a piece of text by quiting the piece of text I'm proposing to strike. I am saying that the paragraph that includes that language should be removed from the document, it's existance is not it's own justification.
Show me somewhere else that supports this idea. Take all these cases where it is contrary to the rest of the game and give me counter examples.
Why does smartlink require an imagelink if you can instead use partial simsense, then it should require one or ther other, but in fact only the imagelink is sufficient? Why can't a moodchip BTL be made that uses partial simsense to only provide the mood track, instead you have to take the full simsense and disable the RAS overide? Those aren't the only inconsistancies that are created as a result of the existance of partial simsense.
Posted by: mfb Feb 19 2007, 10:20 PM
| QUOTE (MITJA3000+) |
| Why does the Hacker have ar-gloves? |
to get to the other side!
Posted by: 2bit Feb 20 2007, 02:53 AM
all that said, I think partial simsense feeds for AR make perfect sense.
Posted by: Trigger Feb 20 2007, 03:44 AM
I think that he easiest fix for this is to strike the 'simsense' part form the 'VR/simsense' sentence on page 318 of the BBB. It does not seem logical that it would lock your body down when not in full VR, since simsense is not just accessed in full VR. If Page 318 only said that a Sim Module locks you motor functions in full immersion VR then this entire problem would be fixed.
Posted by: Demerzel Feb 20 2007, 04:24 AM
My problem with that is I consider full immersion VR = Simsense.
It also fails to explain issues like why does a smartlink require an imagelink if every other use of the image link other than the smartlink could be replaced by partial simsense. Also it does not account for the requirement of a moodchip to have a RAS overide as mentioned in the BTL section. So if you want to allow for partial simsense you'd have to change the Sim Module section, change the BTL section and satisfy a logical inconsistancy in smartlinks, plus possibly others I haven't dug up.
I think the thing that really gets me about it is that it overtrivializes the situation. Allow partial simsense then suddenly everything is trivial. Why have cyber eyes, the blind could wear a seeing hat with a trode net and video sensors, the deaf likewise. Then if you take away the economic incentive for devices like cybereyes and ears then they dry up for the military uses as well. Who would pay for and risk surgery, etc.
What's the point of so much of the world when you take partial simsense out to its logical extension? As much as I'd hate to pull out the grit argument, but it makes it such a clean and pretty world where that blind drug dealer on the corner who can't afford eyes spends 1k 
and is done with it, etc...
Posted by: Demerzel Feb 20 2007, 04:24 AM
Sorry, DP.
Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 20 2007, 04:41 AM
| QUOTE |
| Why have cyber eyes, the blind could wear a seeing hat with a trode net and video sensors, the deaf likewise. |
or go biological and clone said eyes and ears...
this version shows up in games where one have gone far into the biotech field. say, like transhuman space or blue planet.
hell, the only cyber in transhuman space is a computer in one form or another, everything else is bioware or external.
still, why is simsense in any way any cleaner then cyberware? or for that matter bioware?
is it the possibility for describing it as some kind of old fashion camera setup, with multiple optics that shift to and from as the person changes focus?
how about instead describing him taking of his simsense equipped sunglasses to scratch a itch around his empty eye sockets or dead eyes.
cyberware does not automatically make things grim and gritty imo...
or is it the cost of said equipment your worried about?
Posted by: Dissonance Feb 20 2007, 04:42 AM
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| As much as I'd hate to pull out the grit argument, but it makes it such a clean and pretty world where that blind drug dealer on the corner who can't afford eyes spends 1k and is done with it, etc... |
The only problem with that example is that he could also pay half that money to get brand new, 20/20 vision eyes.
Posted by: Demerzel Feb 20 2007, 04:53 AM
It's not that it wouldn't make sense to me to have partial simsense, infact as I've said my first impression was that it is perfectly valid. My first post on DSF was something about partial simsense.
However the simple question of, "Why does the picture on the cover have a hacker wearing AR gloves?" lead me to look at the whole body of work and think that partial simsense over simplifies. Turns all this work in a variety of pieces of equipment, etc. into nothing.
You want fluff reasons why it wouldn't work? Nothing could be eaiser. The human brain isn't equipped to handle two incoming feeds and seemlessly overlapping them. You'd have to somehow intercept and cut the feed from the eyes(/ears/etc.) and process in a digitally combined version, then feed it back in. And that with magnetic fields and electro pulses through a few electrodes around a headband?
Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 20 2007, 06:36 PM
| QUOTE |
| And that with magnetic fields and electro pulses through a few electrodes around a headband? |
warning, the path your about to walk down will only lead to frustration and anger...
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