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Posted by: crimson ronin Feb 20 2007, 03:10 PM

I am wondering if anyone can figure the damage for 2 weapons
1. the Barrett XM500 similar to the 14d rifle from 3rd edition and if youve seen smokin aces yea baby who dont want this gun? ^^
2. the Mechem NTW-20 anti material rifle(20mm version)

Posted by: Eryk the Red Feb 20 2007, 04:30 PM

Well, there are some (myself included) who say that the assault cannon as written is pretty much an anti-materiel rifle. In my game, that's how it is, and I've statted the assault cannon differently.

As to how to stat them assuming we're changing nothing else, I'm not too sure.

Posted by: sunnyside Feb 20 2007, 04:45 PM

I'd say they'd do less than you'd expect.

SR4 seems to have deliberatly made it harder to get your damage into the "your screwed" levels just by having a powerful weapon.

Posted by: Eryk the Red Feb 20 2007, 04:54 PM

It's a matter of preference, in that way. For the most part, I like character skill to be the major determining factor in the effectiveness of attacks, rather than just gear. But, I do feel that if you get hit by a weapon like that, there should be an element of "you're screwed".

Posted by: crimson ronin Feb 20 2007, 05:01 PM

imo the 50cal is equivalent to the assault cannon even though its a rifle the 20mm ought to be way worse but technically both are antimaterial rifles ...
now im wondering about the 105 howitzer(this is real life cannon) ^^ yes i believe the geneva convention has rules versus shooting people with these weapons

Posted by: Eleazar Feb 20 2007, 05:47 PM

Maybe Jervinator could post? I remember him having some SR3 weapon conversion rules.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Feb 20 2007, 07:43 PM

Posted by: Spike Feb 20 2007, 07:55 PM

More fun: You were shooting at the trunk in front of him, it just overpenetrated....

Posted by: Trax Feb 20 2007, 07:56 PM

The Geneva Convention does not apply to Shadowruns.

Posted by: Eryk the Red Feb 20 2007, 08:05 PM

Unless you're doing mercenary work for the UCAS.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Feb 20 2007, 08:31 PM

The "zOMG Geneva Conventions b4nz0r 50 cals" myth seems horribly persistent, but a myth is all it is.

Yes, Article 35 of the First Additional Protocol to the Geneva Conventions says that "It is prohibited to employ weapons, projectiles and material and methods of warfare of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering." But that certainly doesn't into play with piddly-ass HMGs. 2000lb bombs are regularly dropped on people and no one complains -- who's gonna give a shit about the "superfluous injury" caused by a measely little bullet?

Posted by: Gunbunny Feb 20 2007, 08:49 PM

There is no violation of shooting anyone with a .50 caliber round in the Geneva Convention. In fact, there is no mention of caliber that I'm aware of at all in the Geneva Convention. The use of .50 caliber weapons against a human target MAY fall under the Hague Convention of 1907, specifically Annex to the Convention, Article 23, which states that it is forbidden to employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering. Again, it's open to debate...after all, if you shoot someone with a .50 caliber round in the main body, it's pretty much a guaranteed kill...they're dead...are they suffering? However, some opponents may say that being hit with a .50 caliber round will cause unnecessary suffering if it hits an extremity, etc. etc.

The US Army, when I went through Basic training in the 90s, said something to the effect that it was against policy to shoot someone with a .50 caliber round, but I figure it was a bean-counter thing, with the cost of the rounds and such. In such case, one could say:

"I was aiming for his Load Bearing Vest" or "I was aiming for his Helmet" and probably get away with it.

Damn..I see Austere beat me to it. Oh well.

GB

Posted by: crimson ronin Feb 20 2007, 09:06 PM

so anyone care to guess what the damages of these would be? or the -armor without being an armor piercing type of round

Posted by: Gunbunny Feb 20 2007, 09:11 PM

I'd venture at least 9P with -2 for AP...I'd feel good with 10P with a -3 for AP.

GB

Posted by: Garrowolf Feb 21 2007, 06:01 AM

Try this thread for damage codes by caliber. It might help

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=16430&hl=caliber

Posted by: Wasabi Feb 21 2007, 11:23 AM

Any sniper rifle with APDS ammo is just SICK. To compare effectiveness just add the absolute values of damage and armor penalties. So a 7d -1AP is 8 compared to a 5d -4 APDS SMG is 9. 9 > 8.

Now check out the absolute value of a stock Walther MA2100 with APDS... Oh yeah, zOMGWTFAPDS!!11!!

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Feb 21 2007, 12:47 PM

You know that 7P/-1 AP actually averages 1 box of damage more than 5P/-4 AP to any opponent with 4 or more points of armor, right?

Posted by: Thanee Feb 21 2007, 12:54 PM

.50 sniper would probably be 8 or 9P/-3, slightly more than a single shot from a HMG to account for better accuracy, and one step upwards from the standard issue sniper rifle to account for the more devastating round. That would be my guess.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Butterblume Feb 21 2007, 01:20 PM

Ammunition for guns in extreme calibers like 20mm or 25mm are most likely armor piercing to begin with. I think .

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Feb 21 2007, 01:38 PM

In most militaries, even HMG (12.7x99mm/12.7x104mm/14.5x114mm) ammunition is all armor piercing, it's just different degrees of armor piercing starting from copper jacketed steel core (such as the US .50 BMG M33 ball round), saboted hardened steel or tungsten carbide projectiles (e.g. US M903 SLAP), and on to more complex designs like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk211.

It's a matter how much many centimeters of hardened steel armor they can penetrate at several hundred meters. Weapons in those calibers aren't concerned about any body armor ever devised.

Cannon ammunition exists that isn't strictly designed to be armor piercing in the 20mm-40mm bore range -- mostly that means it's just high explosive incendiary (HEI) without shaped charges and incapable of penetrating more than, say, an inch of armor steel plating (still an order of magnitude more than any body armor you're likely to find). When such ammo is used in any application other than close defense or AAA, it is generally used mixed with armor piercing rounds. For example, in the M2/M3 Bradleys, M792 HEI-T is mixed with M791 APDS-T -- the M242 25mm cannon can selectively feed from two separate containers.

Posted by: Butterblume Feb 21 2007, 02:41 PM

Posted by: crimson ronin Feb 21 2007, 02:49 PM

the elephant gun is listed doing 9P the assault cannon 10P imo the elephant gun is like a .444 ive seen one in real life very big bullets so the .50 caliber has to be at least 9P and the 20MM has to be more than 10P but i dont want touse my own opinion i wanted someone who knows ballistics and SR to put best guess forward
to take to my gm

Posted by: Butterblume Feb 21 2007, 03:08 PM

Back to Shadowrun, we are?

My advise would be waiting until Arsenal appears. Can't be that long a wait now, and it may contain answers.

The problem is, of course, guns like elephant guns are designed for elephant stopping power (and elephants rarely wear armor), whereas antimaterial rifles are designed to destroy lightly armored targets (in regard to vehicle armor).

I'd give the big guns more -AP instead of more damage, and remember that SR combat isn't about realism . Probably longer range, too, but somehow this never comes up anyway.

Posted by: djinni Feb 22 2007, 05:16 AM