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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ The Transparent Society and Shadowrunning

Posted by: JanessaVR Feb 20 2007, 11:30 PM

Ubiquitous surveillance would seem to put a huge damper on shadowrunning in general. I’m uncertain how many people here are aware of – as the best example I currently know of – the staggering level of surveillance in London. They have not only a very high level of CCTV coverage, but real-time facial and object recognition, as well as even *activity* recognition. Their newest project (green-lighted) involves tracking every car in the city all the time. Speeding, expired registration, stolen car? Forget about them – identified in seconds, nabbed in minutes. Frighteningly Orwellian to be sure, but it’s also proven terrifying *good* in operation as I understand it. Fast-forward 63 years. Try to imagine doing anything illegal *anywhere*. Get caught on camera *once* and you dare not set foot outside your home again – as soon as a camera tags your face, the cops will be on their way.

I’ve chosen to have my PC deal with this as thus: My PC is a mage, living a double life. By day she’s an industrial alchemist, mainly producing Orichalcum. (High Lifestyle, Day Job 2 – 20 hours per week. After some GM negotiations it has been ruled that this exactly covers her High Lifestyle expenses but provides no other “spending/gear cash” – in other words, it’s mainly just background fluff that won’t come into the game that often.) By nights & weekends, she has her shadow career – something she does *not* want to spill over into her real SIN life. How to keep them separate and the law away from her main life in a high surveillance society?

First, she has one very good Contact, a fixer with Connections 6, Loyalty 5 (worked into her background story). Through him, she spends the nuyen to get a Rating 6 fake id as one “Ursula Natalie Owens” (calling all Agatha Christie fans…), who has her general body build but otherwise does *not* look like her. On the way to meet the team when it’s time for a job, she ducks into someplace off the beaten path for a minute, switches off her real id for her fake id on her commlink (Rating 6 everything with Gray and Black IC to deter would-be hackers), and then locks a Shapechange spell into her Rating 6 Sustaining Focus in the form of her alter ego. Going home, this procedure is reversed to transition back to her normal life. If there are any pictures taken during a run that actually manage to get a picture of her face (she’s attired in a full chemical protection suit complete with mask when we make our runs, or at the very least some cheap face mask) then all she’s lost is the Ursula id and can pay for a new one through her fixer contact / friend.

My equipment list is running me 120 grand just for the commlink and the focus, but such are the costs of a double life. Near as I can tell, this should do it, though some fellow players have called it overkill…

Comments?

Posted by: mfb Feb 20 2007, 11:46 PM

one thing that ameliorates this in SR is that, for the most part, there are no cops. that is, there's no organization that's out to arrest criminals for the sake of maintaining law and order, except inasmuch as it affect the bottom line. Lone Star isn't going to spend time pursuing every crime that falls inside their jurisdiction--they're going to make enough arrests and convictions to fill their quota and keep their contract with the city, and that's it. if a specific crime is particularly high-profile, they'll pursue it with more persistence because solving high-profile cases nets them high-profile accolades, which turns into more money. but random runner X doesn't have to worry much about getting caught on camera as he's going to the Stuffer Shack, because the likelihood of Lone Star singling him out as someone who needs arresting is low--there's a lot of criminals out there, after all. the same basically goes for the various federal law enforcement agencies. crime in SR is too much of a pandemic to spend time going after low-visibility criminals like most runners.

moreover, many runner crimes occur outside of Lone Star's jurisdiction. the Star could get information out of the corporations or nations in whose jurisdiction the crimes occur--assuming that a) the corporation/nation feels that catching the runners is important, and b) the corporation/nation feels like telling the entire world about how some gutterpunk runners beat their security.

to the corporations, especially, preventing crime is much, much more important than catching criminals. there's a virtually endless supply of criminals, after all--even if you managed to round up all the freelance shadowrunners and lock them away, you've still got all the corporate covert forces and company men. once the crime is committed, the damage is done; catching the criminals won't undo that damage, most times. time that could be spent pursuing runners would be better spend shoring up security and trying to fix the damage caused by the crime in the first place.

that said, if you're interested in that sort of society, you should look up a collection of short stories by David Drake called http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/d/david-drake/lacey-and-his-friends.htm. the Lacey stories are about a cop in a society that is under constant automated surveillance, and the problems inherent in catching criminals even with that surveillance.

Posted by: Demerzel Feb 21 2007, 12:53 AM

I think technology is ruining Shadowrun. I think that in general taking modern technology and extrapolating it out to 2070, and attempting continuously to mold the Sixth World to match this ever-changing future view, is a bad idea. It may even be a Bad Idea™.

Here’s my wish:
I wish the cyberpunk genre, and Shadowrun as a member of that genre, could attain a status similar to steampunk. Where it is accepted that the technology base has diverged from the real world at some point. In the case of steampunk it happens in the steam age then flows on its divergent path from there. Let cyberpunk diverge in the 80’s or 90’s, give it a technology set that is what it is and stop trying to fold in modern details. There are things that exist today in a world of terrorism, nationalism, and submission to authority that is incompatible with Shadowrun in many ways. Let the neo-anarchists of the world continue on the fight against big government and the stifling forces of corporate nationhood.

Posted by: Eleazar Feb 21 2007, 01:00 AM

I have a comment. Shapechange cannot be used to work the way you described. It is a spell that can only be used to turn into critters. A metahuman is not a critter. You would have to use Physical Mask to do what you are talking about. Using shapechange like that is considerably broken. Not only do you actually fully assume a new form but you get the bonus from the hits on the spellcasting test. I don't see how any GM would allow this. Is your GM emo samurai?

Posted by: JanessaVR Feb 21 2007, 01:20 AM

QUOTE (Eleazar @ Feb 20 2007, 08:00 PM)

You're confusing Critter Form for Shapechange (4e Core Rules p. 204 - they're listed together). In the Sprawl Survival Guide (p. 49), it mentions someone who used a Quickened Shapechange to change sex for a year. If it'll do *that*, it should be able to do something as comparatively trivial as change features and race for me into my shadow alter ego.

Posted by: Demerzel Feb 21 2007, 01:27 AM

QUOTE (JanessaVR)

You're confusing Critter Form for Shapechange (4e Core Rules p. 204 - they're listed together).

They are listed together because they are the same spell. They operate exactly the same barring the fact that critter form is restricted to a specific type of critter when you learn the spell. It is more likely that your fluff you mention from p49 should be eratta'd to match the spell. However I'm reserving a final judgement until I get a chance to review my rulebook.

Posted by: WhiskeyMac Feb 21 2007, 01:28 AM

That is true but the Physical Mask spell is more up your alley. It only changes your facial features so it goes better with your alternate ID. Same build, same everything but the face. I think it's lower drain as well.

Posted by: Cynic project Feb 21 2007, 01:33 AM

In the future who is to tay that camera footage is trusted as much as it is now?50 years ago you take picture of a man holding the head of his ex-wife and you see mobs go after him..You do that now it would get shout of photo shop...

Posted by: hyzmarca Feb 21 2007, 01:44 AM

QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Feb 20 2007, 08:20 PM)

QUOTE (Eleazar @ Feb 20 2007, 08:00 PM)

Eleazar isn't mistaken. The canon Shapechange spell can only transform an individual into a critter. It has always been this way. [Critter] Form is simply a limited version of Shapechange. The reason [Critter] is in brackets is that it is a variable. You are supposed to replace [Critter] with the name of the critter that the spell is limited to.

That statement in Sprawl Survival Guide is Shadowtalk. Shadowtalk is not rules text. It is in-character flavor text with emphasis on in-character. It is always colored by the perceptions of the individual characters and it is often wrong. It cannot be taken as gospel.

Androgyne may have been the recipient of a custom Manipulation spell that can change sex. It is also possible that he/she doesn't know enough about magic to tell the difference between Shapechange and Physical Mask. So long as it is not resisted, Physical Mask can have exactly the same effects as a sex-change spell (depending on how one interprets "same basic size and shape".

Posted by: sunnyside Feb 21 2007, 02:00 AM

Note that spells will show up in the astral and you may have trouble with wards.

Nanopaste disguises and the like are possibly easier and harder to detect.

That's my take on operating then. If you ever get truely revealed you may want to look to surgery.

Posted by: JanessaVR Feb 21 2007, 02:02 AM

Yeah, well, I find it ridiculous to say that a spell that can transform you into a different species altogether can’t do something as trivial as alter your appearance, so as far as I’m concerned – it can. And seeing as my GM isn’t this excessively picky, that shouldn’t be an issue at the gaming table, either. Moving on…

Posted by: JanessaVR Feb 21 2007, 02:05 AM

QUOTE (sunnyside)

Level 6 Initiate with Flexible Signature, Masking, and Extended Masking (can cover up Magic 6 spells). Unless I'm missing something, that should take care of spotting me magically. The wards I hadn't thought of...hmmm....

Posted by: Eleazar Feb 21 2007, 02:32 AM

The problem is, is that your version of the spell is considerably broken. It effectively works as an attribute upgrade spell without having to sustain 4 increase attribute spells. Under you version I could increase all of my attributes by 4 and suffer from little to no drain. Unlike increase attribute which only raises one, under yours I am increasing all the physical attributes. A spell that did this would have a much higher drain than F+2. Not only that but you are completely changing into that new form which can't be resisted like an illusion can. It also doesn't require to to go over any object threshold to beat any device sensors. Force 1 would beat everything. So with a Force 1 you only suffer one more point of drain but you are more effective than the Physical Mask spell and get a +1 to all physical attributes.

If that isn't extremely broken I don't know what is. This isn't about being "excessively picky" this is about changing a balanced spell into a broken one. Maybe if you brought up this problem to the GM and gave him the relevant posts made by myself and others it would be an issue at the gaming table. I can't believe this doesn't seem the least bit dubious to you.

Whatever, it's your game. House rules are allowed, but I advise against this one.

Posted by: Xenith Feb 21 2007, 02:49 AM

Broken? No more than increase reflexes.

Seriously, you get the AVERAGE stats of said race with a bonus depending on successes, not that broken for a temporary spell. If they abuse it, its GM smackdown time (via similar abuse or just saying "NO.") Or you could even rule that it can't change anything beyond "superfluous" physical appearance if you change into a metahuman. The ultimate disguise spell with, of course, a high drain. Physical mask can be detected as an illusion, Shapechange would not.

Its a unique usage of that spell. Don't get all bent outta shape from originality. The rules don't cover everything.

Posted by: Thane36425 Feb 21 2007, 03:14 AM

What happened to all the cameras?

After years of abuse by the "watchers" the people finally strike back. Groups pshycially attack cameras to the cheers of the crowds while others fight politically, making the the politicians back taking them down. This is helped by the fact that many pols get caught doing things they would not like known by the cameras. Add to this the constant threat of hackers breaking in and altering data and scandals whre the watchers edited or deleted video themselves to make cases or protect offciers in brutality cases. Also, there is the expense of all those cameras, computers and humans watching it all.

Eventually I think people will get tired of it all, especially as abuses, false identifications of faces and activities. Maybe not in England though. They seem Hell bent on becoming an Orwellian nightmare.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Feb 21 2007, 03:15 AM

Why in Frell's name would you go Shadowrunning if you have an Orichalcum bisuness? Or even work for one?

Ramp up to full-time, and you'll make literally millions.

Posted by: JanessaVR Feb 21 2007, 03:24 AM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

Why in Frell's name would you go Shadowrunning if you have an Orichalcum bisuness? Or even work for one?

Ramp up to full-time, and you'll make literally millions.

We're having to adjust the prices for it down a bit as a house rule - as written, I wonder why *any* mages would ever do anything else...

Posted by: eidolon Feb 21 2007, 03:32 AM

QUOTE (Demerzel)

o/` I think I love you, so whattamI so afraid of... o/`

Seriously, I say this all the time. Oh, sure. You might have, you know, worded it well and done it without frothing at the mouth (although I only guess that because you managed to keep typing after where I've cut your post in the quote; generally I find that the froth ruins keyboards).

Not to start an edition war (and really, I'm not trying to, etc disclaimer blah), but that is one of my gripes with the stylistic difference. To me, SR4 feels like it has given up with trying to be SR and is now just "near future cyberfantasy". To me, "we've got wireless internet all over the place now" is not justification, nor reason of any kind, for the Shadowrun world to have every little tech bauble that we Real Life Earth Dwellers have.

In my reckoning, the last time the SR world was even directly based on or correlated to our world...was when the first edition book was written. This holds when I read political discussions, tech discussions, religious discussions, social discussions, etc where people are working furiously to support a premise with "well, if you compare it to such and such in real life". Sure, we can't help but use our lives as a basis for our games, but it just seems to me that we could (and IMO should) try a little harder to make sure what we come up with makes sense in the Shadowrun world, rather than ours.

/soapbox

Posted by: JanessaVR Feb 21 2007, 03:39 AM

QUOTE (Eleazar)

Not seeing a big issue - declare that if you remain your own species, you forego any attribute increases. There, happy?

Posted by: Thane36425 Feb 21 2007, 03:41 AM

QUOTE (eidolon)

In my reckoning, the last time the SR world was even directly based on or correlated to our world...was when the first edition book was written. This holds when I read political discussions, tech discussions, religious discussions, social discussions, etc where people are working furiously to support a premise with "well, if you compare it to such and such in real life". Sure, we can't help but use our lives as a basis for our games, but it just seems to me that we could (and IMO should) try a little harder to make sure what we come up with makes sense in the Shadowrun world, rather than ours.

/soapbox

You're right. Shadowrun is a fantasy world built on future projections inthe late 1980's. In other words, from conditions of that time in the RL, the Shadowrun timeline grew. The appearance of technology is natural of that world. We have some things they don't and they will probably have things we won't, not counting magic of course.

Trying to rewrite Shadowrun based on what is happening today is pointless. It is its own separate world that grew out of the late 80's. To SR, today's world is completely irrelevant. Besides, we would have a really unstable game if they kept completely rewriting SR history every time they put out a new edition.

Posted by: Thane36425 Feb 21 2007, 03:42 AM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Feb 20 2007, 10:15 PM)

Why in Frell's name would you go Shadowrunning if you have an Orichalcum bisuness? Or even work for one?

Ramp up to full-time, and you'll make literally millions.

For the Karma.

As for the spell issue, create a new one that allows a metahuman version of the Shapechange spell. Use the same parameters and you could probably change from an Elf into a human, dwarf small orc or a troll child.

Posted by: hyzmarca Feb 21 2007, 04:25 AM

There is still the issue of it being irresistible, but that can be houseruled, too.

Back to the topic at hand, the actual facial recognition software in use today is very craptastic and ineffective. The problem with extrapolating facial features from pixels is that there is a huge amount of variation in the pixels a face can create depending on things such as angle and lighting. Current facial recognition technology cannot not handle even small differences in viewing angle or lighting with any reliability. "Activity Recognition" is pure BS unless we are on the brink of being destroyed by a rouge AI. It just cannot be done without Strong AI.

However, SR does have effective facial recognition. Shadowrun also has Strong AI and it is far more common in SR4 than it was before. But total surveillance societies are very rare in Shadowrun. In situations where surveillance is a given, cameras can be hacked and disabled or fed edited video. With the wireless Matrix, this is much easier than it once was. The ability to hack cameras so easily makes it kind of pointless to actually spend money on them except in secure areas.

Also, one should remember that most Shadowrunners are SINless and operate out of socially abandoned barrens areas, where there is no police presence.

Posted by: Glyph Feb 21 2007, 04:54 AM

I think that while surveilance may be ubituous, there are other factors at work. Megacorporate extraterritoriality and infighting keeps databases fragmented. The ease of editing things such as video makes them more suspect. Did someone anonymously tridmail you vid of a team of runners fleeing your facility, or did the runners themselves send you altered footage that will send you on a wild goose chase? Furthermore, with no central authority or organization, and cameras everywhere, things often get lost in the overwhelming flood of information.

On top of that, there is really little need for security. People with SR questions should consult the most authoritative source for their questions - ANIME! If you watch Najica Blitz Tactics, you will realize that an operative who has a cover identity as a high profile corporate researcher, and who usually uses non-lethal rounds, has no need whatsoever to cover her face on covert operations.

Posted by: JanessaVR Feb 21 2007, 05:24 AM

QUOTE (Glyph)

If you watch Najica Blitz Tactics, you will realize that an operative who has a cover identity as a high profile corporate researcher, and who usually uses non-lethal rounds, has no need whatsoever to cover her face on covert operations.

I've seen maybe 15 minutes of Najica. As for it's SR applications - well, I'm not really sure that a panty shield counts as armor in a firefight.

Posted by: Garrowolf Feb 21 2007, 05:57 AM

I have IDs on datachips. You want to change the ID just hot swap the datachip.

Then there is a picture with the ID in the database. If you are picked up by a survellience camera then it will first ping your commlink for your SIN. Then it will check your face in the database against the picture on the camera. If there is nothing attached to the ID it moves on.

Basically it would find a bad false ID quickly but it doesn't look beyond the initial comparison without reason. You could have the same picture on 20 different IDs and the system wont realize it right off the bat.

Now if you go into a secure area and they are suspicious then they may start with a facial recognition search. They get 20 hits and the system asks for more specific information to isolate the "right" person on the database. They don't necessarily know that you don't have some other people that look like you but they are suspicious at this point. Now if you have plastic surgery listed with a few of these for repairing damage to your face then that could help explain why several look the same.

I don't know a perfect solution to this but that might help.

Posted by: knasser Feb 21 2007, 07:56 AM

One loophole that hasn't been mentioned is that some people will have viable reasons to have multiple identities. Special agents for the government, witness protection, undercover police, company men. The government wants these people to be able to cheat the system. And that opens up a whole new area of exploits.

The surveillance society is still a nightmare in the UK, though. Did you know that in Europe, there are cameras being trialed that have speakers attached to them? "You there, halt! Look at the camera so we can get a proper photo. Hey, pick that gum up."

On the tangent of Shadowrun diverging from real life... I've been playing since 1st edition so the revisionism that runs through Shadowrun is very clear to me, but you have to appreciate that a lot of people these days didn't grow up in the eighties, they associate "punk" with their parents and if presented with an eighties-based future will be completely confused at not being able to hack wirelessly or google for vast swathes of information from their mobile phone. The flavour, technology and soundtrack (especially soundtrack) of Shadowrun has to be updated. I hate to break this to you all, but Bladerunner is an old movie. To a gamer of sixteen, that movie came out eight years before they were born!

Posted by: Mistwalker Feb 21 2007, 11:17 AM

Who owns and maintains all these cameras?
Even today, with a fairly central authority in North America, if there is an incident on the street, the authorities often have a hard time getting the feeds (after the fact) from privately owned cameras (mostly video surveillance), with a lot of the feeds not usable due to poor sightlines and or maintenance.

Trying to track a group thru the streets with your own cameras, even after the fact, will be hard enough. If you have to go thru the courts to get all kinds of feeds, one block at a time, you may as well as give up.

With Wizzer gangs in existance, don't you think that they would use watcher spirits to take out / mess up all the cameras that may see them doing anything illegal, or even just see them???

My players are big believers in nanopaste. They use a "new" face for every run, from meeting the johnson, to doing the run, to exchanging the goods. Then that face is dumped, probably never to be used again.

Posted by: Butterblume Feb 21 2007, 01:00 PM

QUOTE (mfb)

Well said

.

On the other matter, I wouldn't have minded if Shadowrun had stuck to his 80s theme.
Just to say it again, wireless ist not new with SR4. SR3 had wireless decks and credsticks that transmitted data wireless when entering a store. You could connect with your pocket computer to the matrix, and display infos on your imagelink, so AR isn't new either. Wireless might be a bit exaggerated (at least for me there are lots of wired connections around), but it was around for years in the shadowrun background.

Posted by: Demerzel Feb 21 2007, 03:44 PM

QUOTE (knasser)

a lot of people these days didn't grow up in the eighties, they associate "punk" with their parents and if presented with an eighties-based future will be completely confused

But you look at the popularity of Warmachine and it's associated RPG Iron Kingdoms, and that future world is perfectly acceptable. Or what about a knight in platemail with a broadsword. Tell me that's not at least a tiny bit anachronistic and I'll call you a lair.

Posted by: mfb Feb 21 2007, 03:48 PM

QUOTE (Pendaric)

I wish the cyberpunk genre, and Shadowrun as a member of that genre, could attain a status similar to steampunk. Where it is accepted that the technology base has diverged from the real world at some point.

i think that really misses the 'point' of cyberpunk. cyberpunk was not created to be 80s kitsch, it was meant to explore the interaction of humanity and technology with an eye towards realism (some would say pessimism). good cyberpunk isn't just stories with people who have cyberarms, it's stories about why they have those cyberarms (in a greater sense than "my arm got shot off") and how those cyberarms affect society at large. that's very different from steampunk, where the point very much is to be Industrial Revolution kitsch.

moreover, because technology features so heavily into the genre, it tends to attract people who understand and work with that technology. a Matrix that's basically only useful to hackers, complete non-interoperability between closely parallel technologies, the inability to use technology that exists in the game in a way that makes sense in the context of modern tech--these things might be okay, if you are not a technology fetishist, but they're not okay to me.

Posted by: knasser Feb 21 2007, 04:17 PM

QUOTE (Demerzel)

QUOTE (knasser @ Feb 20 2007, 11:56 PM)

a lot of people these days didn't grow up in the eighties, they associate "punk" with their parents and if presented with an eighties-based future will be completely confused

But the thing that these have in common is that they are quite clearly demarcated from our own world. Historical fantasy? Especially Iron Kingdoms with its Steam Powered golems, et al, is a very different mental space to Shadowrun's world of sixty years from now. Shadowrun is not anachronistic. If it were set in the Eighties, then it would be, but it was set in a future envisioned in the Eighties. That is not the same thing at all. So to keep it current, appealing and coherent, then the vision of the future it is based on has needed to be updated.

As MFB has pointed out, where people know what they're talking about, you have to pay more attention to realism. Do you remember a thread where you and I were both in a minority trying to convince another that a four-day round trip to Mars and back was not realistic? You and I both have a fairly good knowledge of physics and to us, the idea of that in cannon absolutely shattered our suspension of disbelief. Most people living today would be in exactly the same position as us then when faced with unaltered 1st edition Shadowrun. We (and they) know more. We know the implications of the technology better and Shadowrun as originally presented can now be seen to be internally inconsistent. We've all become experts compared to the person of the Eighties.

Shadowrun had to be modernised. And I think a very good job has been done of not retroactively changing anything too, all things considered!

Posted by: Demerzel Feb 21 2007, 04:27 PM

QUOTE (mfb)

good cyberpunk isn't just stories with people who have cyberarms, it's stories about why they have those cyberarms

That’s just half of it, just the cyber part. What I take exception to is translating the modern attitude of willingness to give up all freedoms to gain a measure of security from some nebulous fear of terrorism into a future super intelligence community where perfect anal recognition software coupled with chemsnifers in water closets tell the government what I had for breakfast, and they somehow care.

The punk part of cyberpunk was fighting authority. The reason Seattle had barrens that the cops wouldn’t enter wasn’t because people loved crime, but because people loved freedom. I consider it central to Shadowrun that Shadowruns are possible. So when issues like perfect surveillance come up I cringe and think, no, the neo-anarchists of my shadowrun would hack crash and burn that database so often that they would never be able to keep up with the costs of operating it in manpower and equipment.

And that’s what I mean when I say (and by the way that’s me not Pendaric) I wish cyberpunk would stay cyberpunk. I see many conversations like this where cyberpunk is becoming 1984/Brave New World/Animal Farm instead.

So, Knasser, you see I'm not looking to say that there should be no change in progression of technology, I'm just leary of allowing that change in progression of technology to mirror the change we are seeing today because it's following a different path ideologically.

The resistance to corporate superpowers that existed in the 80's is getting washed away today. The concept of privacy and freedom that drives the punk part of it is a memory as the world I live in is being populated by conformists who wish to have the government monitering their morning breakfast.

Posted by: Butterblume Feb 21 2007, 04:33 PM

QUOTE (Demerzel @ Feb 21 2007, 11:27 AM)

The punk part of cyberpunk was fighting authority.

I agree with Demerzel up to this point, I believe the punkt part is not about fighting authory, but disobeying it.

Posted by: knasser Feb 21 2007, 05:00 PM

QUOTE (Demerzel)

So, Knasser, you see I'm not looking to say that there should be no change in progression of technology, I'm just leary of allowing that change in progression of technology to mirror the change we are seeing today because it's following a different path ideologically.

Ah, in that case we are much closer in agreement than I thought. Hang in there pal, the revolution is coming.

-K.

Posted by: Catharz Godfoot Feb 21 2007, 07:59 PM

I probably went on way too long, so I'm hiding the text. Read at your own peril

[ Spoiler ]

Posted by: mfb Feb 21 2007, 09:21 PM

QUOTE (Demerzel)

What I take exception to is translating the modern attitude of willingness to give up all freedoms to gain a measure of security from some nebulous fear of terrorism into a future super intelligence community where perfect anal recognition software coupled with chemsnifers in water closets tell the government what I had for breakfast, and they somehow care.

to an extent. the thing about SR is, there are way too many people for Them to be watching everyone. universal surveillance is made even harder by the population distribution--not only are there more people, but there are more more people in the cities, where the important things are happening. plus, as i pointed out earlier, runners commit crimes across a slew of different jurisdictions, few of which would be willing to cooperate with each other. universal surveillance that serves universal law enforcement requires universal law enforcement--and law enforcement, in SR, is anything but universal.

QUOTE (Catharz Godfoot)

CP2020 was pedantic, puerile, and narcissistic (and tongue-in-cheek) when it went to great lengths pontificating about mirror shades, pizza, rock'n'roll, rebellion, and how style was everything to "The Cyberpunk." It was also, to some extent, right. IMO Cyberpunk is all about the atmosphere.

CP2020 isn't cyberpunk. it emulates the tropes that cyberpunk started out with, and uses them to create a world that is fun to play in--one that a good GM can use to create cyberpunk. but in and of itself, CP2020 is faux cyberpunk, just like SR (any edition).

the mirrorshades, the rebellion, all that stuff--that's just icing. the real cake of cyberpunk is what it means to replace parts of humanity (from the personal to the universal) with machines.

Posted by: hyzmarca Feb 21 2007, 09:37 PM

Cyberpunk is about the future psycosocial impact of the internet projected from a time when no one except for hardcore academics and badass teenage hackers knew what the internet was.

Posted by: knasser Feb 21 2007, 09:54 PM

I thought the core of "Cyberpunk" was always alienation. The way that mankind is setting technology above human relationships. And the replacement of parts of people with machinery was just the supreme metaphor for this.

And Catharz Godfoot - that ain't too long. You should see some of the rest of our posts if you want to see long. No need for spoiler tags there, mate.

Posted by: Demerzel Feb 21 2007, 09:58 PM

You calling me long winded?

Posted by: knasser Feb 21 2007, 10:04 PM

QUOTE (Catharz Godfoot)

In a future where people spontaniously become faeries or "goblinize," I would think that suspension of technological disbelief the least of my worries if I was looking for a realistic setting.

I like Gibson's and Sterling's Cyberpunk a lot. I like a setting in which people remove their artificial eyes to connect their optic nerves to a giant MUSH. This does not work if you want realistic technology, but that's the ways Cyberpunk is. I think characters who go around in a post-apocalyptic future run by space Russians finding old VHS tapes for rich collectors are awesome. I like the idea of squatters scrounging rocket engines from the USSR's dead space program and 'booster jumping' in duct-taped surplus space suits to Mir.

CP2020 was pedantic, puerile, and narcissistic (and tongue-in-cheek) when it went to great lengths pontificating about mirror shades, pizza, rock'n'roll, rebellion, and how style was everything to "The Cyberpunk." It was also, to some extent, right. IMO Cyberpunk is all about the atmosphere.

Anyway, SR4 isn't cyberpunk. It has a lot of the supposed dystopic elements, but it's really become its own genre like 'D&D fantasy.' It's also a great gaming system, and I think it would be neat to see a cyberpunk setting added on in a new sourcebook (a Planescape to SR's Forgotten Realms), but I'm also happy to play it as it is.

I thought this was worth replying to separately. There are mainly two schools of thought on this, I've found. One group says (broadly) "It's a game. It doesn't have to be super accurate. It just has to be fun." The other side endlessly explains and assesses things in great quest for internal consistency. Actually, I belong to the latter.

One thing that I like in Shadowrun is the realistic feel it has to it. Yes, I'm using the word realistic to apply to a game with dragons and elves. But I think you know what I mean. There's a lot of love in the history and the detail that strives to counter-balance the fantastic. It's an 'okay - we've got magic, lets see how the world would really handle it' sort of approach. The world is all bent out of shape but it's still our world and you can see the continuity. And I think it gets away with this because of the striving not to violate our suspension of disbelief whenever possible. The inclusion of elves and magic doesn't mean we can stop worrying about technological and socialogical issues, to me. It means that we have to worry about it even more. It's the difference between 'my mage buys an SMG' and 'my mage buys a Unicorn mount.'

At least to me.

Posted by: Pyritefoolsgold Feb 21 2007, 10:29 PM

I've been thinking a lot about this recently, and I don't think that shadowrun has gotten away from the essence of cyberpunk: rather, it has only added layers to it. Can you conceive what AR means to the genre? an entire population of people literally going through life with rose colored glasses, simply editing out the grime and decay around them. But the grime and decay is still there, and everything they are experiencing is fake. Reality becomes rarer and rarer.

that's why my favorite SR character is practically a Luddite.

Posted by: mfb Feb 21 2007, 10:49 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Cyberpunk is about the future psycosocial impact of the internet projected from a time when no one except for hardcore academics and badass teenage hackers knew what the internet was.

it started there. Gibson didn't have a single clue about how computers work when he wrote Neuromancer--but that was okay; neither did anybody else. Pattern Recognition, his latest book, is a lot more computer-savvy (though i'd estimate he's still only at the level of proficiency of my mom). similarly, GitS:SAC requires at least a basic grasp of networking concepts to follow. neither of these are 'classic' cyberpunk, but i don't think the 'classic' part has ever been important to the genre. it's just eye candy.

in the middle of the last century, people had a generally cohesive view of what the future was going to be like--it was going to be the Jetsons, basically. nobody complains, today, that "it's not science fiction" if it lacks flying cars, humanoid robots, and pills that contain an entire healthy meal, despite the fact that the bookstores are full of sci-fi books nowadays because of the stories born from that mindset. they understand that the particular paradigm that arose in the post-war tech boom is outdated by the technology that gave it life. cyberpunk is a sub-genre of science fiction, and science fiction can't remain science fiction unless it evolves as the science itself evolves.

QUOTE (knasser)

The inclusion of elves and magic doesn't mean we can stop worrying about technological and socialogical issues, to me. It means that we have to worry about it even more.

will you marry me?

Posted by: NightmareX Feb 22 2007, 01:32 PM

QUOTE (Catharz Godfoot)

Eventually you'd just stop caring, and start trying to see if you can piss on the camera as you're stumbling back from the bar.

Indeed, that is exactly the effect constant and noticed surveillance has.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Feb 22 2007, 01:55 PM

QUOTE (knasser)

It's the difference between 'my mage buys an SMG' and 'my mage buys a Unicorn mount.'

That difference is called 'much money'.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Feb 22 2007, 02:07 PM

QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 21 2007, 04:21 PM)

Yeah, I'm not sure where the idea of universal surveillance in SR comes from. Perhaps the technology exists, but the social structure of Shadowrun doesn't really back any form of universal surveillance. Shadowrun lacks the central authority of a 1984-ish setting, unless you interpret that central authority to be the megacorps. But then you're forgetting that the megacorps are constantly trying to screw each other over and that they use these deniable assets you're worried about being surveilled to do it. The desires of the corporations created shadowrunning, they have no desire to stamp it out through universal surveillance.

Posted by: Blade Feb 22 2007, 02:46 PM

There's technology that allows automatic monitoring. There's no need to have someone watching the camera feed but if something strange arises, someone will be automatically alerted.

This isn't used much in C and less rated areas, but it is definitely used in A+ areas: the general population of Shadowrun's 2070 is paranoid, and prefers to see cops shooting at people (who don't have regular SIN so don't exist) than taking any risk.

Think permanent post-9/11. the kind of climate of fear that's best for making people do what you want them to when you're the only stable element in their universe (which happens to be megacorps in Shadowrun).

Posted by: Cheops Feb 22 2007, 03:47 PM

According to RAW Janessa's interpretation of Critter Form and Shapechange are completely INVALID. Both spells state that you cannot change into a creature with Sentience and I'm pretty sure all Metahumans have the Sentience power. If the group is willing to forgo this why bother changing into a metahuman? Body up and turn into a Dragon or a really high force spirit and tear ass across the countryside.

As for cameras, and RL London. I'm pretty sure that the downtown core of London is probably Lone Star rated A+ so that's why there's so much coverage. However, there are numerous references in SR to gangers and other miscreants destroying cameras, graffiting them so they don't work, and actual running gun battles in the Downtown Militarized Zone between gangers and Lone Star. Seattle has 3 million registered (i.e. have a SIN) people, and up to DOUBLE that in SINless. There are numerous references to Lone Star still being stretched thin even though it is a private, contracted corp.

It is possible to be a runner without getting caught on camera. SR4 and wireless AR makes it easier to hack cameras and delete your image since you don't have to hack GridGuide or Lone Star anymore--you hack the camera. Or else just make sure that you don't accept runs in AAA rated neighborhoods like Queen Anne Hill. My group hates taking runs in Downtown or A+ 'hoods because they know Star will be all over their ass if anything goes wrong and there will be the threat of go-gangs on the highways and punks in the streets.

As for the dystopic atmosphere and cyberpunk feel. SR4 has really toned this down to fit in with the current idea of stylish, sleek, and sexy dystopia. Mohawks have turned into faux-hawks and civil disobedience has been turned into sk8r boyz. However, it is really easy to bring the cyberpunk back. Just stick to the fluff in the sourcebooks and there should be more than enough there to "keep it real."

Posted by: Demerzel Feb 22 2007, 03:50 PM

QUOTE (Blade)

Think permanent post-9/11. the kind of climate of fear that's best for making people do what you want them to when you're the only stable element in their universe (which happens to be megacorps in Shadowrun).

This is exactly the problem I have. Everyone want's to take this and turn it into a game changing/game breaking technology. The Sixth World developed differently. When you read the history the threat of terrorism wasn't the single driving force behind what will probably turn into a decades long occupation of a foreign state. Technology won't develop down the path we are developing down now, because in the Sixth World that was not the driving force, corporate extrateritoriality and megacorporate power is. Furthermore to say that megacorps are a satisfactory replacement for terrorists to drive the same sort of technological advancement is naive.

The Sixth World is not some massive post 9/11 world.

Posted by: Blade Feb 22 2007, 04:08 PM

Looks like you didn't get me. I was just comparing to post-9/11 not stating that 9/11 happened in SR world.

But SR world had : destruction of the nation-states (NaN and that kind of things), destruction of the economy (Crash 1.0) and massive death (VITAS). That's enough to shake your common guy.
But that's not all, all the 20th century beliefs were totally destroyed by the Awakening.

So your common guy has lost everything he believed in, he lost control on his own life. He's afraid. What does he do ? He seeks something stable, something strong, that has been seen before. A police that shoot before asking questions ? Ok, as long as I can sleep soundly. A megacorp that alienates me ? Ok, as long as it keeps me safe from that mad, dangerous world.

So people seek shelter in the megacorps against that world they don't understand anymore. And if the world seems to be okay again, there's an occasional insect spirit, shedim or terrorist with magical nukes attack to bring people back to the comforting corporate enclaves.

Posted by: Demerzel Feb 22 2007, 04:22 PM

QUOTE (Blade)

But SR world had : destruction of the nation-states (NaN and that kind of things), destruction of the economy (Crash 1.0) and massive death (VITAS). That's enough to shake your common guy.

But you see I’m saying that these are things that will not substitute for the threat that we look at now and say has the potential to turn us into a super surveillance state. The Native American uprising that created the NAN could not have been stopped by super surveillance, it was in fact created by a group of people in a concentration camp. Noone can argue that putting cameras on Main Street would have stopped the great ghost dance.

How do those same cameras on Main Street prevent Crash 1.0? In fact Crash 1.0 and further 2.0 would have had the opposite effect. People would ask why are we relying on such an unstable POS to link our data uplinks and surveillance networks when our lives are on the line.

Taking the post 9/11 world and overlaying its concepts of surveillance for security and blaming it on things like the Great Ghost Dance is what I’m calling naive.

Posted by: Blade Feb 22 2007, 04:44 PM

People don't think rationaly enough... especially when they are afraid.
Do you think that all the measures taken after 9/11 were needed to prevent such things ?

Maybe some of these were, but some of them were also measures any governement dreams of but can't apply because the people wouldn't accept them. But if the population is scared enough, you can make them accept whatever you want, as long as you say it's for their security. That's what I'm saying.

(And when you have gangers shooting SMG on the highway and people killing each other three blocks away every night, you're okay with having cameras to prevent those guys from getting on your lawn)

Posted by: Demerzel Feb 22 2007, 05:34 PM

I do not claim that any of the measures taken by my government would prevent future acts of terrorism similar to 9/11. I only claim that those steps taken would not have occurred without it.

You claim a chronic endemic of violence would bring about the same change as an acute case of terrorism. Or at least that is what you’ve claimed in this last post, that gangers’ violence would cause the same effect. In your previous post you cited cases that were indeed acute, however I’m not thinking that anyone is going to take the excuse, “Sir your neighbor may actually be 100 injuns in disguise so we have to implement surveillance on both of you to provide for each other’s safety.”

Prior to 9/11 there already existed an endemic of violence in our streets. The 80’s drug wars, the era of prohibition and the machine gun toting gangers that it created did not bring about widespread wiretapping. History indicates that no, it would not happen that way.

So I’m thinking that The Great Ghost Dance, Crash 1.0 and 2.0, and SMG toting Gangers are all insufficient to bring about the surveillance state you’re saying is inevitable. What else you got?

Posted by: Butterblume Feb 22 2007, 06:14 PM

QUOTE (Demerzel)

“Sir your neighbor may actually be 100 injuns in disguise so we have to implement surveillance on both of you to provide for each other’s safety.”

Sir, we are almost certain there could be a dozen terrorists in your population of 80 million, so let's read all your mail, monitor all your calls and log all your movements, so your freedom is guaranteed.

Sound familiar?

At the inception of Shadowrun no one could imagine the amount of surveillance possibble even today, much less the future.

Posted by: Demerzel Feb 22 2007, 06:29 PM

Well, the point of that quote was to point out the absurdity of suggesting that the Great Ghost Dance would bring about the same surveillance as 12 terrorists. You see there is probably not 100 Indians hiding inside your neighbors body waiting at any moment to burst forth gather in a huge group and begin a days long ritual to destroy the city. So therefore the Great Ghost Dance is not a valid excuse for post 9/11 style faux-vigilance.

Consider the history of SR is of hiding things like that from the people, not using it to further the aims of your surveillance society. Consider the case of the Universal Brotherhood. That their case did not cause a massive backlash and public surveillance of every humanitarian organization goes against the concept of “The Transparent Society”.

QUOTE (Butterblume)

At the inception of Shadowrun no one could imagine the amount of surveillance possibble even today, much less the future.

The level of surveillance possible today was imagined and far surpassed in a variety of sources, start with 1941 for a single example, and go on to the other half a million examples at your leisure. My point is that we don’t go down that road in Shadowrun just because we are going down that road in Real Life™, the worlds diverged.

Posted by: Butterblume Feb 22 2007, 06:50 PM

1948 would have been a beter date (george orwell). But I seem to have completely missed your point .

But since this is a game forum, I only repeat what was said before: The only reason shadowrunners aren't caught most if the time is because no one really tries.

Surveillance, forensic, magic: if the GM used all tools, the life expectancy of shadowrunners would be really short.

Posted by: Demerzel Feb 22 2007, 07:05 PM

QUOTE (Butterblume)

1948 would have been a beter date (george orwell).

Even 1984, I must have been thinking of that old Videogame...

Posted by: Cheops Feb 22 2007, 07:25 PM

QUOTE (Butterblume)

But since this is a game forum, I only repeat what was said before: The only reason shadowrunners aren't caught most if the time is because no one really tries.

Not true. Shadowrunners aren't caught because of jurisdiction. AA+ corps aren't part of the country, they are separate. So any crimes commited on their property aren't committed in the UCAS, they are committed in Renraku. Lone Star can't prosecute you for something that happened on Renraku turf and Renraku can't legally persue the runners onto UCAS turf.

There is also apathy. If Detective Joe Grand Theft already has 25 cases of grand larceny on his plate another one for a bunch of unknowns (0 public awareness) isn't going to get much attention. Likewise for Det. Crockett Vice and Det. Mulder Paranormal and Det. Susy Kidnapping. Those last three have it even worse because their case loads also tend to fall under FBI jurisdiction.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Feb 22 2007, 07:33 PM

Demerzel,

Remember that before the Great Ghost Dance, the NAN uprising started with the SAIM terrorist launching of nuclear weapons at the Soviet Union. Also remember that in Shadowrun, the Sears Tower was destroyed by terrorists, an act far more destructive than 9/11 if you go by the Shadowrun text. Both first edition references.

Shadowrun isn't based in a post-terrorism theme, but it's not as if terrorism didn't exist in the alternate future of Shadowrun.

Posted by: Crakkerjakk Feb 22 2007, 07:58 PM

My .02 American Dollars.

Yes there are terrorists. Yes this results in paranoia and surveilance. However, there is no unified state to coordinate.

Each corp has their own surveilance database, and on public property the Star has to get warrants for each and every person who might have recorded some information they want to access. While processing speed and memory might be so vast that it isn't factored into the rules on an individual scale, proccessing the sheer amount of data, sifting the wheat from the chaff, is an enourmously time consuming and expensive process. It can be done, it just usually ins't cost effective.

That being said, high security zones like downtown seattle DO have the resources to pursue folks who take out a few city blocks with assault cannons and explosives. The key to getting away with crime is to not make a big fuss.

Even on a small scale, this is effective. If runners kill every guard in a wharehouse they're raiding, the corp, and the Star if it's only an A rated corp, might take interest, as murder is up there on the, "pisses off the public" rating. If instead, a buncha corp guards get knocked out by professionals with stick n shock, gel rounds, and gas grenades, the corp is likely to cover up their guards incompetence, and if they DO manage to eventually track down the runners, they may be more inclined to hire such consumate professionals, as opposed to eliminating them. A dead guard/cop is a hero. One who gets knocked out is a laughingstock.

This is part of why fanatics are dangerous. They don't put a monetary limit on vengance. Luckily, this tends to limit their available funds. Corps, however, are out to make money. Barring a serious need to cover up whatever certain runners might have found, if the runners make it hard/expensive to find them, the corp will cut their losses and invest in better security. Runners who brag to the people they ride the bus with about what a bad shadowrunner they are, however, will find themselves out of work, and after one botched run, with a corp sec team coming after them where they live.

[/rant]

Posted by: mfb Feb 22 2007, 08:04 PM

SR's global social fabric wasn't spun around the threat of terrorism. however, terrifying events did occur, and i think that if some global authority presented a plan for universal surveillance, the first-world population would gladly accept it.

the reason universal surveillance doesn't exist in SR is, the guys in charge don't want it to exist. for one, as DE pointed out, they use runners too. matter of fact, they are the biggest consumer of runners on the planet. rounding up all of the shadowrunners and putting them in jail or a shallow grave would hurt all of the megacorps' bottom lines, because without such deniable assets, they wouldn't be able to keep the rest of the world in such a stranglehold. even aside from the shadowrunner issue, what do you think universal surveillance would do to trade secrets? all it would take is one bribe to someone with access to the surveillance system, and all your secret projects would be known to your competitors--giving someone money or favors is easy to do without anybody finding out (and even if the briber and bribee are caught, the damage is already done).

Posted by: eidolon Feb 22 2007, 08:12 PM

I don't have a terrible lot to add to what Demerzel is saying, other than to say that I agree wholeheartedly.

Knasser, regarding your take on why the SR world "must" be updated:

[ Spoiler ]

QUOTE (knasser)

But the thing that these have in common is that they are quite clearly demarcated from our own world.

And if you don't feel like the Shadowrun world is, and has always been, then we read the world very differently.

Posted by: JanessaVR Feb 22 2007, 08:44 PM

QUOTE (Cheops)

Or we could, you know, choose a far less extreme route and just say it allows one to turn into a non-paranormal version of something around your size with no changes in attributes. In D&D terms, think more Alter Self (2nd Level), than Shapechange (9th Level). Tell you what, to satisfy the sky-is-falling nitpickers here, just say I've imported the Alter Self spell pretty much as is and converted its specs into SR4e terms. There, *now* are you happy? Geez…

Posted by: ornot Feb 22 2007, 09:14 PM

Well technically, Janessa, by permitting Shapechange to act as a disguise spell, you remove the necessity for your character to buy the "physical mask" spell or even "alter self", thus saving yourself 5 karma.

Of course, if you are a level 6 initiate, clearly 5 karma isn't much of an obstacle.

As for the SR-verse being a universal surveillance society, I have to agree with the majority of other posters that this just isn't the case. Sure the technology exists to play Big Brother on everyone, but the infrastructure does not.

I envision corruption as pretty rife in SR, and even those good little citizens in their A+ residences have skeletons they'd prefer to keep hidden. In my world almost everyone is on drugs or BTLs to cope with the madness that is day to day life, so there is not public acceptance or pressure for universal surveillance. Instead everyone wears amoured clothes and carries a concealed gun.

Posted by: Pyritefoolsgold Feb 22 2007, 09:34 PM

QUOTE (eidolon)

I don't have a terrible lot to add to what Demerzel is saying, other than to say that I agree wholeheartedly.

Knasser, regarding your take on why the SR world "must" be updated:

[ Spoiler ]

QUOTE (knasser)

But the thing that these have in common is that they are quite clearly demarcated from our own world.

And if you don't feel like the Shadowrun world is, and has always been, then we read the world very differently.

Shadowrun is obviously based on reality in a way that most other systems aren't. We're talking about running adventures in Seattle, using some firearms that exist today. If it doesn't relate to reality, then no one will relate to it, and it will be consigned forever to the annals of history, only played by the type of people who are in love with the 80s.

Posted by: Demerzel Feb 22 2007, 09:52 PM

QUOTE (Pyritefoolsgold)

If it doesn't relate to reality

Relating to reality and being grotesquely tied to it at the exclusion of plot, internal consistancy, and playablilty is entirely different.

Posted by: JanessaVR Feb 22 2007, 09:59 PM

QUOTE (ornot)

As for the SR-verse being a universal surveillance society, I have to agree with the majority of other posters that this just isn't the case. Sure the technology exists to play Big Brother on everyone, but the infrastructure does not.

It appears that my group differs a bit from the norm here. I've got a GM who loves CSI, Law & Order, and any other crime drama you can think of. She reads crime drama and true crime as well, has a degree in archaeology and has taken some forensics courses. Do I worry about having to potentially outwit a crack CSI / investigative team on every run? In my case the answer is “Hell, yes!”, unfortunately. I actually didn’t plan on starting out as a Level 6 Initiate (BP expensive as hell!) but I dare not leave the slightest evidence behind and as I have Magic 6 (a major “class” attribute, of course I’m maxing it out), I need an Initiate Level to match it so that I can cover every single spell I cast. In the “Standard Behavioral Security Precautions” section of my (20 page) character sheet, I’ve explicitly noted that when leaving for runs the first thing she does is change her aura and mask herself and her foci. Otherwise I’m looking at worrying about Seattle 2070’s answer to Lord Darcy and Master Sean homing in on me, more than likely…

Posted by: mfb Feb 22 2007, 10:17 PM

JanessaVR, i think your GM is missing some of what SR is. there is no reason for most authorities to try to track you down. nobody in SR cares about solving crime for the sake of solving crime--all they care about is preventing crime, and even then, only crimes perpetrated against themselves. unless there is something concrete to be gained by chasing a specific runner down, runners won't generally be pursued by the authorities.

QUOTE (Demerzel)

Relating to reality and being grotesquely tied to it at the exclusion of plot, internal consistancy, and playablilty is entirely different.

you seem to be assuming that everyone who is arguing against you--ie, arguing against keeping SR stuck in the 80s--is agreeing with JanessaVR's GM on the issue of universal surveillance. that isn't the case. most of us are arguing that SR should be brought out of the 80s because of issues of plot, internal consistency, and playability.

Posted by: Demerzel Feb 22 2007, 10:29 PM

QUOTE (mfb)

arguing against keeping SR stuck in the 80s

I'm not saying that SR should not have a developing technology, I'm just saying that you shouldn't model it on the way our technology is evolving. They are being driven by different motivations.

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)

Shadowrun isn't based in a post-terrorism theme

This is what I'm striving for. The concept of ubiquitous serveillance is a consequence of a post-terrorism theme. I don't want to impose our modern problems on this world.

QUOTE (JanessaVR)

In the “Standard Behavioral Security Precautions” section of my (20 page) character sheet, I’ve explicitly noted that when leaving for runs the first thing she does is change her aura and mask herself and her foci.

Do you have meticulously determined weights and volumes for every item of gear to exactly calculate your encumbrance as well?

I can’t even get some of my players to write a backstory, with or without details. I imagine if the bulk of GMs required this kind of diligence on the part of their players the game would not be playable. I have a hard time understanding the GMs who try and beat their players, I have times I wish I didn’t have to remind them that they can walk and don’t need to levitate…

Posted by: Crakkerjakk Feb 22 2007, 10:47 PM

There is a way to defeat this type of GMing, if you don't like it. Use all your nuyen to buy a crapton of ammo and explosives, then nuke city hall. Once your GM kills you, do the exact same thing with your new characters. At some point, the GM will probably crack, and demand that you stop ruining their gameworld. Now that you have both estabished that you can take the fun outa playing shadowrun, maybe you and your GM can have a reasonable discussion about where both of you would like to see a campaign head, and what to hand wave, annd what requires planning and paranoia.

Personally, if I had to write down that I collect all my poop and burn it every day to avoid leaving ritual samples anywhere, I'd go batty. I think it's unfair to ask my players to do the same, and it becomes more of a GM vs. Players game, as opposed to Players vs. NPCs.

If you enjoy that type of game, well, guess thats your perogative. It just seems very, very, very frustrating.

Posted by: ornot Feb 22 2007, 10:58 PM

I don't really think that the kind of 80's Shadowrun that existed in first ed. is (unlike steampunk) sufficiently outré to survive as its own genre. While I can agree that to a certain extent SR is losing its cyberpunk origins, playing 80's inspired cyberpunk won't mean a great deal to the majority of players today.

That being said, I have noticed that almost all of the Shadowrun Missions being released seem to involve missions sponsored by organised crime, which is a bit odd. However, a cunning GM can create corp sponsored runs and really develop the back-stabbing, politicking world of the mega-corps as they slowly crush the spirit (and the nuyen) out of a drugged up, self destructive populace. And ultimately you can GM the world as dark, gritty and anarchopunk as you want.

Posted by: mfb Feb 22 2007, 11:02 PM

QUOTE (Demerzel)

I'm not saying that SR should not have a developing technology, I'm just saying that you shouldn't model it on the way our technology is evolving. They are being driven by different motivations.

coming up with an entirely new technological paradigm is just as bad as leaving SR in the 80s, because either way, nobody will relate to it. that doesn't mean SR should slavishly follow every new technology or technological improvement that comes out, but it does mean that SR should follow or at least acknowledge the general trends and norms.

Posted by: Crakkerjakk Feb 22 2007, 11:24 PM

Wait a tic. Did you just say that you "started" with an initiation level of six? As in, at character creation? Because, as far as I'm aware, you can't initiate until after character creation.

Posted by: Demerzel Feb 22 2007, 11:26 PM

QUOTE (mfb)

coming up with an entirely new technological paradigm is just as bad as leaving SR in the 80s,

But SR is an entirely new technological paradigm. It is currently extrapolated from technology that was modern in the 80s and has been molded to match some of the concepts that we have come to know in the current decade.

What I want is for us not to jump on every piece of modern techno-excrement and say this MUST be represented in our gameworld. Every piece of technology should be considered as it relates to the game and a decision should be made if it is representative of the world we are trying to describe and the game we are trying to play.

In this case perfect surveillance is the technology under consideration, and luckly for me many people have come along with a dozen good reasons why it doesn’t have to be in the gameworld and can be explained away.

Posted by: JanessaVR Feb 22 2007, 11:34 PM

QUOTE (Crakkerjakk)

Wait a tic. Did you just say that you "started" with an initiation level of six? As in, at character creation? Because, as far as I'm aware, you can't initiate until after character creation.

An annoying oversight in the rules, that. House-ruled in. Creation points are 500 BP as well. Few of us are fond of playing "1st Level Characters." At a flat 10 points per level, I've got 40 BP extra left to play with...like I said - OUCH.

Posted by: mfb Feb 22 2007, 11:44 PM

QUOTE (Demerzel)

we basically agree, then.

JanessaVR, it sounds like the way your group plays is quite a bit different from the way many other groups play. that said, i know (and enjoy gaming with) several players whose characters sound like they'd fit well into your game. they tend to be possessed of above-average abilities, but they're very subtle with them. i like comparing it to GitS:SAC.

Posted by: Crakkerjakk Feb 23 2007, 12:01 AM

10 points for a level of initiation seems a little low, seeing as you get all kinds of nifty perks associated with it. How does it work out to only 40BP remaining? I'm confused on the math.

Also, I used to live in Sacramento. Grew up in Elk Grove, actually. Just noticed you were from Sac.

Posted by: JanessaVR Feb 23 2007, 12:10 AM

QUOTE (mfb)

JanessaVR, it sounds like the way your group plays is quite a bit different from the way many other groups play. that said, i know (and enjoy gaming with) several players whose characters sound like they'd fit well into your game. they tend to be possessed of above-average abilities, but they're very subtle with them. i like comparing it to GitS:SAC.

I can see that style of play happening. My gaming group is also my anime club and we've all seen all the GitS episodes. Most of us will be playing that way - except for one guy whose philosophy (in the past in a 3e game) has been "I'm an Ork and I like to throw grenades!" - even when we're trying to be quiet. Sigh. Gods, nearly shot him myself for almost spoiling a nice quiet B&E job in the dead of night with what *would* have been no opposition, silenced alarms, and no witnesses - until *someone* decided to pick a fight with an entire street gang...

Posted by: JanessaVR Feb 23 2007, 12:15 AM

QUOTE (Crakkerjakk)

How does it work out to only 40BP remaining? I'm confused on the math.

Normal character creation is 400 BP. At 500 BP, we have 100 extra points. Initiate Level 6 burns 60 points (at 10 points per level), leaving me with 40 extra BP over normal after my "tax" to completly conceal my Magic 6 spellcasting. Oh well, took other perks in the process; I chose: Absorption, Centering, Extended Masking, Flexible Signature, Masking, Shielding. Poured the remaining 40 BP into boosting Active Magical Skills.

Posted by: ornot Feb 23 2007, 12:41 AM

That must be a grotesquely potent team. Starting characters in themselves can be pretty sick, provided they play smart and the GM isn't throwing Dragons at them.

Posted by: Butterblume Feb 23 2007, 12:44 AM

If you're not min-maxing your specialty, but spreading your points around, 500BP doesn't seem like that much more.

Posted by: ornot Feb 23 2007, 01:05 AM

Even so... rank 6 initiate at char gen.... brrrrr.

Posted by: JanessaVR Feb 23 2007, 01:18 AM

QUOTE (Butterblume)

If you're not min-maxing your specialty, but spreading your points around, 500BP doesn't seem like that much more.

Still under construction, but yes, I'm mini-maxing my character for all she's worth with respect to being a mage. Being a mage is *expensive* - I don't have a lot of leftover points for much of anything else anyway. She can't fight, she can't shoot, she can't hack, and as a Conjurer she sucks there, too. But as a Sorcerer, she's damn near optimized at present. Hoping someone else will want to play a shaman / spirit-oriented tradition to balance me out on the magical front.

Posted by: ornot Feb 23 2007, 01:39 AM

if you're min-maxing, and you're sinking all those points into initiation, it seems a little strange to not be buying your magic above 6, considering how much more oomph it might give your spells.

I just feel that buying all those ranks of initiation to hide your spell casting is a little pointless when you can still be discrete with magic without so many, and you're sacrificing any effectiveness your character might have outside her niche. The moment your GM sticks you somewhere with any background count, you're gimped.

Posted by: Blade Feb 23 2007, 11:41 AM

Just to get back quickly on the post-terrorism topic: I understand why I didn't exactly understand what you were trying to say and the other way around.

I wasn't referring specifically to the terrorist threat. My point is that when people's values/beliefs are shaken or destroyed (be it because of a terrorist attack or anything else) they get afraid and are turning towards "strong" people (political extremes for example) and are ready to lose freedom to get a more secure society.