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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Noob Matrix Questions

Posted by: Gnomish Mustard Feb 26 2007, 02:09 PM

I did a search for matrix and have dug around a bit, but have not found this question to be asked. If it has before, I am sorry for not being able to locate it, I must have glitched my search program.

We are brand new to Shadowrun and I am attempting to play a hacker.

1) Matrix – Augmented Reality Vs. Virtual Reality – Your ‘matrix” initiative is defined as the same as your real life init in AR, but different in VR. Augmented Reality is 24 times slower than full Virtual reality. Since it takes so long to do anything in AR, who cares how many init passes you have? You are always waiting on AR to catch up with your requests. It’s kind of like waiting on an old dial up modem. You can click on three different things (3 initiative passes), but because the bandwidth is so slow, you can only go as fast as the bandwidth, no matter how many different things you click on.

I can see that having three init passes is good for combat and the like, but I don't see its benefit in AR matrix.

2) Matrix – Computer skills and programs – I found this to be very odd. Let’s say you have a logic of 5 and a computer skill of 5, making your total 10. When you go to actually use the computer skill in the matrix, your logic is not included in the dice pool! Only the program is. So if you want to use a exploit program, you use your base hacking skill and the strength of the program, no more. Is that correct? If so, why place very many build points on higher level Logic and other Matrix style attributes, honestly?

3) Comlink Upgrades - I found that it was much cheaper to upgrade a junky comlink than it was to take an expensive one and upgrade it. I am not sure if I did it right. Basically I paid for a comlink that had a 2 for its stats, then paid for programs to up its signal strength, response, etc to 5. That was cheaper than purchasing a comlink with a 4, then upgrading it to a 5. Did I do something wrong?

Thanks for the help guys, we are really starting to enjoy this game. (Any word on when the base book will be available again?)

Take Care,
Gnomish Mustard

Posted by: Butterblume Feb 26 2007, 02:28 PM

Your search fu must be weak, since there are so many threads on these topics .

1) Actually, most things are as fast in AR as they are in VR. The cautious hacking attempt (what is it called, probing? can't remember) is the one exception I can think of right now.

2) You are correct, and other people (like me) have also wondered about this .

3) Also correct.

Posted by: Gnomish Mustard Feb 26 2007, 02:53 PM

Let me clarify some information on the AR vs VR.

I can't find the page right now, but I seem to recall something about the AR version always being slower than VR. I know on page 228 it says that "more importantly, VR is fast" allowing you to move at digital speeds.

I can look more in to detail later. I am sure we saw that it was slower, but I am not sure where now.

Posted by: Butterblume Feb 26 2007, 03:28 PM

I would be pretty amazed if you'd find more than that piece of fluff text.

Yeah, VR should be faster than AR, but the rules actually doesn't support this (except for the probing).

Posted by: Gnomish Mustard Feb 26 2007, 04:16 PM

I see what you mean here. On one page it says that probing takes 1 hour for virtual, but 24 for AR.

I think that we applied that rule to other matrix style actions, and thus thought that all actions in AR are 24 times slower. It doesn't make sense that only this particular action is slower, to me, but if there are no other instances to support AR being slower, then this changes everything.

Let me review:
Basically the book states that VR is faster, for hackers that want that "extra edge," however, the rules only support this idea in probing.

Does that sound correct?

What is the benfit to running VR instead of AR, besides when probing?

Thanks!

Posted by: Konsaki Feb 26 2007, 04:23 PM

You might want to ask Synner. IIRC, he is the Matrix Freelancer and the one overseeing 'Unwired'.

Posted by: Cheops Feb 26 2007, 05:03 PM

QUOTE (Gnomish Mustard)

What is the benfit to running VR instead of AR, besides when probing?

In VR you get an extra +2 to your actions.

Also VR always gives you 3 IP and a higher Initiative than in RL. Unless you happen to be wired or an adept. In that case you are just as fast.

Realistically no non-Technomancer shadowrunner should be running in VR unless you have a character concept that prevents the use of IP augmenters.

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 26 2007, 05:10 PM

ah, the debates that never dies.

time to cue serbitar i guess...

Posted by: Serbitar Feb 26 2007, 06:18 PM

As always, I stand ready.

Posted by: imperialus Feb 26 2007, 08:03 PM

QUOTE (Gnomish Mustard)

2) Matrix – Computer skills and programs – I found this to be very odd. Let’s say you have a logic of 5 and a computer skill of 5, making your total 10. When you go to actually use the computer skill in the matrix, your logic is not included in the dice pool! Only the program is. So if you want to use a exploit program, you use your base hacking skill and the strength of the program, no more. Is that correct? If so, why place very many build points on higher level Logic and other Matrix style attributes, honestly?

My own explanation behind this at least is that being really smart is only required for the actual writing of the program. Once the program is written, it does the bulk of the work, the character just needs to rely on his familiarity with the program and how to use it effectively to make it work. That's where the skill comes in.

I seem to remember some time ago this question came up in another thread and someone likened SR4 hackers to script kiddies. They write (or otherwise get their grubby hands on) a program, press the start button and let it run. If something unexpected comes up they work within the confines of the program to get it to do what they want. This doesn't rely on raw intelligence though, it relies on aptitude with the program which is why it is tied to skills not attributes.

Honestly you can be a pretty decent hacker as long as you have some high end programs and a reasonable amount of skill with them. I made a sam who just threw a few BP's into the hacking group and paid for a snazzy comlink with some leftover starting cash. Never played him but he would have been at least a decent backup hacker to run distraction do data searches or generally just help out the groups real hacker. Unfortunatly he isn't be able to write any new programs, he'd be stuck buying them and he would have had to have spent a lot more BP's on his skills if he did try to raise them above his logic/intuition values. Not only that but most real hackers would have thumbed their noses at him, calling him a script kiddy or whatever the 2070 equivilant is.

Posted by: knasser Feb 26 2007, 08:13 PM

If you're referring to the thread I'm thinking of, then that was probably me making the comparison to script kiddies. I found the simplest way to bring mental attributes back in is to use caps, much like Force in a spell. So it returns to Attribute + Skill like everything else already is, but like magic and spells, you need the program in the first place to actually make the roll and your successes are capped by the rating of the program.

That works for most play, but might be a little harsh. Easily remedied by allowing either higher rating programs or setting the cap as rating x1.5 or x2 (not quite as silly as it first looks for hackers with high edge).

It wont effect the costs to hackers or gameplay, but it will discourage low-logic script kiddy flavour in your game. Which I see as a good thing.

Posted by: Dashifen Feb 26 2007, 10:30 PM

QUOTE (Serbitar)

As always, I stand ready.

Well done.

Posted by: Synner Feb 26 2007, 10:44 PM

QUOTE (Gnomish Mustard)

1) Matrix – Augmented Reality Vs. Virtual Reality –

This one is simple. For the vast majority of the Sixth World population VR is faster than AR. Contrary to popular opinion the rules do support this, since the vast majority of computer users and hackers will not have Wired Reflexes or other reflex enhancements (particularly when they can save the money and use VR).

QUOTE

2) Matrix – Computer skills and programs

This one has been addressed before too. The answer is equally simple. Your attributes are of no use in the Matrix because it's not you doing anything. Your brain can give thought-speed commands but that's a long way from actually interfacing with software on the other end of the line and interacting with it in machine code (which is what is actually going on). A normal human being (TMs may be an exception) has neither the innate ability nor the speed to interact with the virtual world in its true form in real-time. That's what programs are for, they're your virtual arms and legs.

Think of it as trying to open a media file without having a media program installed let alone the appropriate codec. No matter how clever a human is he won't be able to translate the program code into any readable/recognizable form in real-time.

Posted by: Demerzel Feb 26 2007, 11:06 PM

So that scene in The Matrix where Joe Pantoliano points at the data feeds and says, "I look at these and I see Blonde, Brunette, Redhead." isn't how the SR matrix works?

Posted by: TheOOB Feb 26 2007, 11:34 PM

Well, anyone with knowledge of code can do that, I can look at a Java program block and tell what a line of code does pretty quickly, but it would take me hours to fully read and compile even a simple program when a computer can do it in a few seconds, computers > your brain.

It is theortically possible with wired reflexes 3 to manually input data into your comlink in AR faster then the simsense unit on your comlink can interprate your neural pulses in the virtual world, just something to keep in mind.

Posted by: imperialus Feb 27 2007, 12:51 AM

QUOTE (knasser)

not a bad idea. Probably only a really good idea if the group is large enough to have a dedicated hacker anyhow though. Otherwise a script kiddie street sam or face might not be a bad idea. There are disadvantages to it especially if you use some form of SOTA rules but it can help teams of 3 or 4 fill that gap without dropping another essential archtype like a mage or face.

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 27 2007, 06:59 AM

QUOTE (Demerzel)

So that scene in The Matrix where Joe Pantoliano points at the data feeds and says, "I look at these and I see Blonde, Brunette, Redhead." isn't how the SR matrix works?

kinda like how a real life networking tech can look at a sniffer dump and go "web, ftp, smb, wtf?!"...

mind you, most of the time those dumps are not read in real time, as the amount of traffic that go over a connection is just insane. and with the sr matrix being able to support VR in real time with near real life appearance, the traffic is even more so...

so one would probably be able to glimpse the traffic, but would be hard pressed to manipulate it in any meaningful way by writing packages (chunks of data) by hand in real time.

and thats what programs are 99% of the time, a set of predefined packages known to have a specific effect. with higher rating ones having more variations on the theme and other stuff that makes it more able to do what job it needs to do.

others, like analyze, have more detailed package filters so that it can go into more detail of what your likely up against.

the rest is basic utility programs...

while he was able to tell what kind of hair color said lady had, was he able to tell what said lady was doing at any one time?

Posted by: Wasabi Feb 27 2007, 11:50 PM

Speed in AR can make a difference... magically jacked up speeds usually dont apply in full VR so when you are trying to shutdown a camera or jam an enemy drone, the more chances the better off you'll be.

I had a strictly-AR based hacker who was a physad with Increase Reflexes-3 so he had 4 passes and max human Reaction. He could shoot, drive, hack, or whatever blindingly fast. He didnt have TM tricks or typical Adept-Hacker bonus dice from Improved Ability (Technical) but he was quick and multipurpose.

My perspective, of course, YMMV.