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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Is the VHP necessary?

Posted by: nezumi Feb 27 2007, 04:26 PM

Three sources have brought up the idea of over-sized guns. With long-arms, this role is already served by auto-cannons and MMGs, however there is no weapon that currently fills the role of the Very Heavy Pistol (VHP).

Why should guns too big to be wielded by unaugmented humans be around? Because we have trolls now, we have people with superhuman strength, and we have recoil compensation well beyond those of current technology. People have argued there is no realistic reason why gun companies wouldn't have taken advantage of this new market of trolls and cyber, and cybered trolls.

A VHP would use rifle caliber ammunition or larger (like the .50 BMG pistol picture we've seen handed around a few times). It would be a huge honkin' bullet, too big to be fired from a handgun given today's situation. The short barrel length means it wouldn't have the penetration of a rifle, but it would still be more deadly than an Ares Predator.

Thoughts?

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Feb 27 2007, 05:06 PM

You can never have a big enough shoota.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Feb 27 2007, 05:23 PM

Yes, and it gives me ideas for a small gnome PC with a VHSMG jetpack. Custom VHSMGs, with selectable clips (one blanks, one regular on each) in a large harness so he can propell himself at significant speeds toward enemies, spin, and then switch clips and slow down while blasting the recieving area with very deadly suppresive fire.

He'll be the decker.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Feb 27 2007, 05:38 PM

...Recoil Comp - through GV, barrel design (as in the Ares Alpha) and/or extendable stock - and either a Strength min or Cyber Implant. Also with that much power I see the firing rate being SS mode.

Posted by: sunnyside Feb 27 2007, 05:46 PM

In SR4 this is already done. The super warhawk does the same damage but has higher penetration than an assault rifle. It also has better penetration at the cost of a point of power compared to a full length shotgun.

I consider the reason it has to be a pistol to be because it's rounds simply wouldn't fit in a grip made for a hume.

A full on troll gun would then simply be a semi automatic super warhawk with maybe a ten round clip instead of a cylinder.

Posted by: nezumi Feb 27 2007, 05:47 PM

QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm @ Feb 27 2007, 12:23 PM)

I have to ask, WTF?

Two people have voted that this role is already filled by another weapon. Which weapon fills the role of the VHP?

QUOTE

In SR4 this is already done. The super warhawk does the same damage but has higher penetration than an assault rifle. It also has better penetration at the cost of a point of power compared to a full length shotgun.
...
A full on troll gun would then simply be a semi automatic super warhawk with maybe a ten round clip instead of a cylinder.

But if you have to make a new gun, it means it ISN'T already done. You would have to make the SA Super Warhawk, which is a custom gun.

Similarly, if we take a revolver and make it into a mag-fed SA gun, why can't we make a bigger revolver that does 7P instead of 6P?

Posted by: Crakkerjakk Feb 27 2007, 05:55 PM

Just.... no. Gahd, Desert Eagles are already more than you need. Going higher caliber is just a matter of who is compensating most.(You know for what) A pistol is a sidearm, not a main weapon. And putting slightly larger holes in something really doesn't make that much of a difference. Emptying an AK-47 into a Rhinos head will still kill it. Similarly, dropping 2-3 .45 rounds into a Trolls head should kill it. It's not THAT much bigger. It's partly just a matter of there being more area to hit, so any given hit is less likely to be vital.

Posted by: nezumi Feb 27 2007, 06:19 PM

QUOTE (Crakkerjakk)

And putting slightly larger holes in something really doesn't make that much of a difference.

Apparently it does in SR. Why is it that no one ever uses a light pistol? They still put the same number of holes in people as a heavy pistol.

Posted by: Lindt Feb 27 2007, 06:28 PM

Jack, while you might be able to hide a 30.06 handgun in the waistband of your jeans, its kinda hard to do that with an Ak.

Would I, as Joe the bodyguard, be in good mind knowing that I have a weapon in my shoulder harness that could drop even 'that' troll in a pair of center mass shots? You better bet your ass I would.

Posted by: sunnyside Feb 27 2007, 07:13 PM

QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 27 2007, 12:47 PM)

Essentially I'm saying that the warhawk is already a VHP with a significantly more potent cartridge than the other heavy pistols. The troll grip business would simply allow for a new pistol in the same cartridge as opposed to a new class of firearm.

The reason I would oppose 7P is that in SR4 you only gain points of power in firearms with very significant increases in cartridge potency.

For example observe the slight increments going from LMG to HMG, and the lower than you would expect damage codes for sniper rifles.

In your first post you spoke of lower performance than rifles in your VHP weapons. However the warhawk already surpasses the assault rifles. Improving it's damage/penetration by just one each would make it surpass full length shotguns and match full on sniper rifles and HMGs.

In fact since assault cannon rounds are already highly explosive you should probably consider EXexplosive rounds when making comparisons. Give yourself just a few points of power and you've got yourself a panther in your pants.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Feb 27 2007, 07:17 PM

QUOTE (nezumi)

I have to ask, WTF?

Extra-high recoil with no compensation is an excuse to start calculating acceleration due to recoil on low mass characters. Rather than just getting blown backward into a wall, do something useful with it.

Yes, it's a very expensive and non-subtle tactic inspired more by Yosemity Sam than any real benefit.

Posted by: Turtle Feb 27 2007, 08:18 PM

I don't know, I always figured the Panther Assault Cannon filled the role of troll sidearm pretty nicely. It kinda worked like a regular pistol, at least in SR1...one action, one shot, VERY big holes.

Posted by: nezumi Feb 27 2007, 08:20 PM

Sunnyside, I think you make a good argument. SR4 does not have the granularity to allow for VHPs. HPs (which have always been a bit overpowered considered) stop just short of the rifle range, and going higher would push the boundaries of credibility further.

However, that doesn't address SR3 where levels of granularity would allow the VHP go to 11 or 12M, or alternatively, 5 or 6S, either case making it far more dangerous than an HP, but still not approaching the potency of a rifle.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 27 2007, 08:38 PM

Take a shotgun, modified for troll-grip, of course, remove the stock, cut the barrel down, load slugs.
How is this not a very heavy pistol? If we're talking SR3, isn't the modifier for a troll using a normally two-handed weapon (such as the above "shotgun") in one hand +0TN? Can I get a bookninja?
If we're talking SR4, I don't know if there's a DP penalty for a troll using a normally two-handed weapon in one hand, but I suspect either none or very small.
Right? Where did I go wrong?

Posted by: sunnyside Feb 27 2007, 10:51 PM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

Actually via cannon companion I believe in SR3 there was a "sawed off" option for shotguns.

It turned a higher damage shotgun into a heavy pistol for range and damage code, due to the shortened barrel length.

So in SR3 the heavy pistols were fireing shotgun sized rounds. And something bigger on their warhawks. And SR2 was similar enough that the same should apply there.

However the system is granular enough you could make arguments for rounds beyond eight gauge or whatever the warhawk fired.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Feb 27 2007, 10:56 PM

Why am I suddenly reminded about the weapons rules for Underground?

The ones that feature handguns in the 50mm range?

-karma

Posted by: HullBreach Feb 28 2007, 02:24 AM

This is a subject near-and-dear to me as I am both a gun nut and love playing street sams. I'm going to explain my position on this, but I need to set up my position with a short forward:

Notes and Assumptions:

Weapons technology traditionally evolves only when a significant need is identified. Very rarely has there ever been a successful or widely adopted system which had to go looking for a problem to solve.

Now, we are at a bit of a disadvantage here because we think like folks from 2007, not 2060. Today we are just starting to see the beginnings of widespread (i.e. general issue) ballistic body armor on millitary forces and by para-millitary elements. Accordingly, we are seeing two new threads of development in modern weapons.

One of these is that of the P-90 and MP-7, which are small caliber weapons firing special high-velocity low mass armor defeating rounds. The other path is that of very powerful high-mass projectiles fired from compact but very accurate weapons like the .50 Beowulf or .450 Bushmaster. These don't defeat armor, they just make sure any shots that get around it make the target very very dead.

Now we have to jump forward 53 years. Body armor is a fashion statement, and some folks can even bounce small arms fire naked. There are critters that can shrug off anything short of artillery. Obviously, this is going to have influenced arms design significantly.

When I GM, I operate on a couple of assumptions that while not able to resolve the inconsistencies of the firearms system with reality, they do help an awful lot.

The first of these assumptions is that the base stats for a weapon assume it is loaded with FMJ (full metal jacket) ammunition. I assume that heavy pistols are the equivalent of the .45ACP or heavier. Light pistols are assumed to be chambered in 9x19 or lighter. Mid-range rounds like the .357sig or .40 I kinda wing if a player is looking for an 'inbetween' chambering.

The culture of Shadowrun is absolutely awash in guns, to such a degree that I'd imagine the fashion conscious probably maintain several copies of their favorite weapon in different finishes so they can accessorize their outfit appropriately. Hell, I imagine street sams play drinking games at bars like 'name that gun' every time someone walks in with something in a holster.

My Position:
The idea of ultra-heavy weapons makes sense. Cyberpunk 2020 delved into this rather extensively (hell they had at least a dozen weapons with strength/body requirements for using), and I felt the way they handled this was pretty good.

Now taking the above points into mind, heres how I would handle this:
Ultra-heavies not only exist, they are on the cover of most shooting magazines and probably even occupy some prime case space at the local gun store. BUT much like exotic and unique weapons today, they should be hellaciously expensive and hard to get your hands on. Not only because of legality issues, but because every shooter who fancies himself billy-badass wants one, so demand is stupid high.

Ammuniton should be a pain in the ass to locate as well. The closest thing to these weapons that exists today is the S&W .500 magnum or the Desert Eagle in .50AE. Next time your in your local gun shop ask the clerk how much ammo they sell in these chamberings. If its more than 3 boxes a week I will be wholeheartedly surprised. Holsters are a bitch to find too.

Also, anything other than FMJ ammunition should be rare to the point of absurdity. Players who choose to use these weapons should be driven to learn how to manufacture their own ammunition.

This comes down to a final point: These weapons will attract attention. Gun-nuts and street sams will be drawn to them like moth's to a flame. If bodies start showing up with absurdly huge holes in them, the cops are going to ask around at the local gun stores about who's been buying that size ammo.

Finally, if someone below the minimums for the weapon attempts to fire it, I recommend making them resist progressively more powerful light wounds to their wrist/shoulder.

If you all are interested, I could try to write up some rules for these and post them to my site (see sig).

Posted by: nezumi Feb 28 2007, 03:04 AM

I would be very interested. I've posted my own rules (12M damage, but 4M damage to the shooter unless he has a cyberarm, 4 points of recoil comp, or a cyber limb), but I don't know too much about guns

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 28 2007, 03:30 AM

I liked Hullbreach's info. Then I clicked on his link and had gun with this page: http://heavyangel.com/?page_id=41

But, on the original topic, I think that super huge handguns would be a logical thing to expect invented in a world that has trolls and where body armor is commonplace.

However, I'd argue that in order to portray them the way that you'd want to (big rifle cartridges with short barrels) you'd have to redo all the damage weapon codes so that they make sense in terms of caliber and barrel length which probably on the whole would make combat deadlier. Which is okay with me.

Face it. It's all gonna be worth it when the troll handloads a hollow pointed .308 rifle cartridge and fires it from a gigantic revolver and someone's head disappears. After the firefight you could describe how the troll pops out the cylinder and releases the brass to reload and instead of getting the cute sound of pistol brass bouncing on concrete you get the more manly, hollow sound of these gigantic rifle casings bouncing on concrete. It would be so much fun.

Posted by: HullBreach Feb 28 2007, 03:39 AM

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

Face it. It's all gonna be worth it when the troll handloads a hollow pointed .308 rifle cartridge and fires it from a gigantic revolver and someone's head disappears. After the firefight you could describe how the troll pops out the cylinder and releases the brass to reload and instead of getting the cute sound of pistol brass bouncing on concrete you get the more manly, hollow sound of these gigantic rifle casings bouncing on concrete. It would be so much fun.

I like your style! Though nothing beats the hollow 'thuck' of a shotgun hull bouncing on the ground.

Another fun thing to bust out on players is somthing like this:

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encorePistols.php

These are single-shot break action pistols that fire just about every cartridge known to man by swapping out a few parts.

I've actually considered creating a gun using adept who was highly specialized in the use of one of these.

Spike Spiegel uses one in an episode of Cowboy Bebop. Mad style points even if its tactically nuts.

Posted by: Ryu Feb 28 2007, 01:50 PM

Never - go punish yourself for the suggestion. Now.

Pistols should stay small, once they cross a certain size other weapons do it better. Rules for wielding larger weapons in one hand make more sense considering the superhuman stats of trolls and samurai alike.

Posted by: nezumi Feb 28 2007, 02:31 PM

QUOTE (Ryu)

Pistols should stay small, once they cross a certain size other weapons do it better. Rules for wielding larger weapons in one hand make more sense considering the superhuman stats of trolls and samurai alike.

The goal of pistols is concealability. Even a large pistol is more easily concealed than a rifle, but (in SR) have more penetration than an SMG. So why would a troll, who is large enough to wield a larger pistol, use a rifle when he wants a reasonable conceal rating? Why would he use an Ares Predator when he is capable of shooting something bigger?

Posted by: kigmatzomat Feb 28 2007, 02:54 PM

that's really a different argument. Trolls should get a concealability bonus simply due to size and bulk. The inherent irregularity of the troll physique means it is much harder to identify tell-tale bulges. Is that a pistol or a dermal thickening? Noticing a .45 on a troll is like finding a .25 on a normal person. Heck, with hands the size of hams the grip on a troll weapon is probably larger than some light pistols.

Back in SR2 my troll carried a sawed off shotgun as his heavy pistol with a 4 round magazine. We used heavy pistol ranges but shotgun damage. It counted as a "heavy" weapon so double recoil and no barrel accessories were allowed but we used the FoF rules on strength as recoil comp.

Posted by: HullBreach Feb 28 2007, 03:07 PM

QUOTE (kigmatzomat)

Back in SR2 my troll carried a sawed off shotgun as his heavy pistol with a 4 round magazine. We used heavy pistol ranges but shotgun damage. It counted as a "heavy" weapon so double recoil and no barrel accessories were allowed but we used the FoF rules on strength as recoil comp.

You actually breach a good point here: As much as my previously described ultra-high end weapons make sense, theres also the fact that a lot of weapons with similar chamberings and uses will have been manufactured with hacksaws and duct tape.

I know a cop who told me a story once about how they pulled a guy over who was packing a whippet made from a cut-down Mini-14 he had stolen. This is kind of the 'redneck' solution to the problem.

Posted by: Darkest Angel Feb 28 2007, 03:33 PM

No, there's already Hold Out and Light Pistols which pretty much nobody uses. The Heavy Pistols pretty much cover DEagles, anything bigger is unnessary and would probably end up with a concealability no better than an Sawn Off - in which case you may as well carry a fraggin' sawn off.

Posted by: nezumi Feb 28 2007, 04:09 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

a concealability no better than an Sawn Off - in which case you may as well carry a fraggin' sawn off.

But as far as I am aware, there are no rules for a sawn off. So whether the "VHP" class is made by factories or by jury-rigging, it still is not supported by the current rules.

So my question stands, do you want rules that would allow for a sawn-off hunting rifle/shotgun?

Posted by: sunnyside Feb 28 2007, 04:25 PM

While I think there is some room for pistols to get a little bigger in SR3 and SR2 (but not SR4) I think you guys are still selling the current heavies (and especially the warhawk) short. I think it's because SR shies away from body/strength/recoil requirements for weapons until you get into things meant for vehicles.

So, just as a gnome in gradeschool can fire a ten gauge on full auto with one hand using a pistol grip without a penalty, your characters can fire warhawks without any problem. Doesn't mean the warhawk is fireing little .45s.

Also it seems some of you have decided that barrels in longarms are there for
Sh*ts and giggles. I'd need to dig in the back of my closet but I'm 99% sure that there were rules in SR3 for sawed off shotguns and they dropped the damage code from 10S to 9M. Does that damage code look familiar?

So a preditor is shooting something roughly equivalent to a high powered shotgun (shotguns run from 8S to 10S so I figure 10S is something like a 10 gauge).

The warhawk is more powerful so it's probably fireing something roughly equivalent to a sawed off 8 guage or maybe even a 6.

If you want pistols heavier than that OK, just be aware you're really getting up there.

If you want more realism put some requirements on fireing the heavy pistols.

Posted by: nezumi Feb 28 2007, 05:10 PM

That's an interesting direction I hadn't considered, putting restrictions on firing heavier guns. That is, at its core, the basic problem. There's nothing stopping a Strength 1 character from using an LMG (except he has to be able to carry it in the first place, but because the encumbrance rules are so messed up, I've never seen that come up).

I do agree that the current firearms rules are nerfed, and its something that's getting changed in SR3R. Shadowrun has long neglected the fact that barrel length is critical to the power of the bullet. And so when I put forward the idea of VHPs, I did so with the full realization that this idea was being built upon previous flawed reasoning that was outside of my control.

Posted by: Darkest Angel Feb 28 2007, 05:20 PM

QUOTE (nezumi)

So my question stands, do you want rules that would allow for a sawn-off hunting rifle/shotgun?

The Remmington 990 comes in a sawn off shotgun variety. Check out Cannon Companion, there's rules for 'sawn off' in there from SR3.

Posted by: Pendaric Feb 28 2007, 06:05 PM

I consider VHP's to be a house rule call. If there is a strong call for one in your game indulge your player if you wish. The current rules fall short of perfect realism in favour of good/ease of game play. There is no hard and fast logic to the firearm rules, sawn off shotguns and the enricho hatamoto heavy pistol for example.
The VHP should remain an optional personal choice for each ref.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 28 2007, 11:31 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

But what if you want a rifle cartridge for better performance against armor? A Bushmaster 5.56 pistol might be more practical for a troll and less of a pure novelty.

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 1 2007, 12:03 AM

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

QUOTE (Darkest Angel @ Feb 28 2007, 10:33 AM)

But what if you want a rifle cartridge for better performance against armor? A Bushmaster 5.56 pistol might be more practical for a troll and less of a pure novelty.

Hell those are fun to use for normal sized folks!
(waiting on my NFA AOW paperwork so I can put a front pistol grip on mine)

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 1 2007, 12:12 AM

Well, mostly because I enjoy pistols I say yes

But that aside given the 'ware available I don't see them as being unrealistic at all. I do see them being only SS unless you meet a strength requirement or a RC requirement (both are likely to be obtained thru 'ware).

On the topic of HullBreach's guns, I'm actually going to see if I can't talk my GM into letting me use the "Gong" given that the character has an obvious lower cyberarm with a cyberarm gyromount and the str and agi on the arm are 6. (both the meat and the metal stats, I figured it would eliminate math if I made them the same). I'm sure I'll QUICKLY be receiving the soon to be added Distinctive style flaw. Right along side anyone who makes a troll with a bow.

SR4 slightly covers the VHP category with the Ruger Superwarhawk (6P -2 AP) and SR3 with Cannon Companion had the Eichiro Hatamoto (can't remember stats, 12M maybe?).

I'd really like the Thunderbolt and the Savalette Guardian back myself though, although I doubt they would be hard to recreate (Guardian is just a 6P -1AP with burst fire as a complex action, integral RC of 1, and built in Smartlink)

Posted by: Glyph Mar 1 2007, 03:58 AM

I think that shotguns and submachine guns are the troll VHPs. Something like a Defiance T-250 is the equivalent of a large-bore pistol for a troll, while an Uzi III is the equivalent of a machine pistol. And by the time you modify either weapon with an oversized troll grip, they probably start looking like big pistols.

I agree that trolls should get a bonus for weapon concealability due to their huge size - +2 or +3 maybe?

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 1 2007, 01:09 PM

Just had the mental image of a hold-out pistol with troll grips on it. <LMAO>

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Mar 1 2007, 09:09 PM

QUOTE (Glyph)

I think that shotguns and submachine guns are the troll VHPs.

As I said before, I agree.

The tricky part is, if the troll takes the pistol-grip sawed-off semi-auto slug-firing shotgun and uses it as a VHP, does he use the pistol skill or the shotgun skill?

Posted by: nezumi Mar 1 2007, 09:29 PM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 28 2007, 10:58 PM)

I think that shotguns and submachine guns are the troll VHPs.

As I said before, I agree.

The tricky part is, if the troll takes the pistol-grip sawed-off semi-auto slug-firing shotgun and uses it as a VHP, does he use the pistol skill or the shotgun skill?

One problem with this is SMGs are using a smaller caliber bullet (presumably) to make up for it being in a smaller package. If we had an SMG that fired shotgun slugs, it would seem to me that we can consider SMGs the VHP category, and the shotgun-SMG the troll SMG category.

I keep going back to the point that the critical difference between a handgun and a long gun is a long gun is... long. A sawed off shotgun, by the rules, goes back to a 9M damage code, so we can infer that a long, standard HP, if given a long barrel, is a 10-12S. There is nothing with a bigger bullet than a sawed off shotgun (in other words, something small enough for a human to handle), that isn't a long gun.

Should we consider sawing off assault rifles? Or would that just go back to SMG damage? Sawing off LMGs?

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Mar 1 2007, 09:35 PM

QUOTE (nezumi)

A sawed off shotgun, by the rules, goes back to a 9M damage code,

Are you sure about that? I was thinking that they lost some range and maybe dropped from 10S to 9S, but I didn't think it went all the way to 9M.
I have no SR3 quotes to wield; does anyone?

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 1 2007, 09:46 PM

Sawed off assault rifles are not a good idea. When you get to really short barrels there's no advantage there over calibers like 5.7x28mm and 4.6x30mm.

A shotgun sawed off to be a "Troll Heavy Pistol" wouldn't have a barrel as short as a human standard Heavy Pistol, it'd be 65% longer -- in SR3 at least, slightly less so in SR4. Makes perfect sense to me to allow an 8S shotgun/HP with Heavy Pistol ranges and concealability, according to both in-game and real life logic. With the skill you could go either way.

Similarly SMGs could work as "Troll Machine Pistols" (although there the differentiation in damage is much harder to justify with real life logic, but we aren't really going there), and slightly shortened (Barrel Reduction) SA/BF shotguns or sport rifles as "Troll SMGs". LMGs could work as "Troll ARs" by simply modifying them to be troll-wieldable (though again if you're trying to make sense of the damage ratings...).

[Edit]Ruleswise the gun modification option "Barrel Reduction" has the following effects: -10% range, -0.25kg weight, +2 concealability, plus increased cost and lowered FCUs. (CC, p. 74). However, you could make the case that making a shotgun into a "Troll Heavy Pistol" goes a bit beyond what that's supposed to simulate.[/Edit]

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Mar 1 2007, 10:10 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

Sawed off assault rifles are not a good idea. When you get to really short barrels there's no advantage there over calibers like 5.7x28mm and 4.6x30mm.

Sure there is, from a role playing perspective.

If I'm a troll with hands the size of Kansas and I need to load up my magazines I would have a much less frustrating time pushing in big 7.62x51 cartridges than I would pushing in relatively tiny PDW cartridges.

Similarly, if I want to handload, my life will be filled with utter frustration if I need to do this into a small piece of brass. As a troll I really want to work with a big magic marker sized piece of brass so that I don't dump my powder all over the desk whenever my hand shakes a little bit.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 1 2007, 10:50 PM

Though the cases are longer, common assault rifle calibers wouldn't otherwise help the troll there. If you're just interested in filling up a mag, get a magazine loader. 5.56x45mm cartridges weigh about the same as 9x19mm ones, 7.62x39mm slightly less than .45 ACP ones. 7.62x51mm cartridges, though already out of the assault rifle range, at least weigh almost as much as .44 Magnum ones, but still in each case you're looking at far smaller and far lighter bullets, and much smaller diameters for everything but the rear part of the case, if that. For those big, clumsy troll fingers you'll want a shotgun.

Scaling a .45 ACP up to troll size (ie. 1.65x in every direction), you'd get 19x38mm -- basically an 11 gauge, 1½" chamber shotgun. Funny how that works out.

[Edit]http://www.special-warfare.net/data_base/201_individual_weapons/image/556_45_01.jpg's a 9x19mm FMJ cartridge next to a 5.56x45mm M855 FMJ. A 7.62x39mm and 7.62x51mm will look relatively smaller next to a .45 ACP and .44 Magnum, respectively.[/Edit]

Posted by: hyzmarca Mar 1 2007, 11:00 PM

When I think of heavy pistols for trolls, I always come back to the http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/airborne_combat_engineer/2006/07/more_on_the_50_.html .50 BMG and the http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/airborne_combat_engineer/2005/01/the_maadi_griff.html

Certainly, a troll would be more comfortable handling the large .50BMG cartridge than he would be handling other cartridges. I imagine that someone will actually decide that there is some profit in building http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/0800/850.htm.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 1 2007, 11:06 PM

The funny thing about the Birdman M82B1-P is that the bullet would actually be sticking out of the barrel and into the muzzle brake, with the most likely effect of catastrophic failure on the first shot. Except of course you can't fire it, because there's not enough space for the bolt and slider to move back far enough to chamber a round.

Make it 6" longer in both directions, though, and we're in business.

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 2 2007, 10:49 AM

Going back many many years to when I was in the Army Cadets and used the SA80 on a pretty regular basis, I recall that even at 14 I could handle it one handed pretty easily thanks to it's bullpup configuration. Also, the rules in CC state that wielding a two handed firearm (not heavy weapons btw) with one hand is no problem for a Troll. So, with that in mind - why do you need an even heavier pistol when you can pack a regular Ares Alpha as if it was an Ares Predator anyway? The only reason is concealability, which can be taken care of with barrel reduction.

Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 2 2007, 12:15 PM

QUOTE (nezumi)

QUOTE (Crakkerjakk @ Feb 27 2007, 12:55 PM)

And putting slightly larger holes in something really doesn't make that much of a difference.

Apparently it does in SR. Why is it that no one ever uses a light pistol? They still put the same number of holes in people as a heavy pistol.

Actually, my char does use a light pistol, loaded with S&S rounds of course, and a 30 round magazine.

But then, she is not the team's gun bunny.

I voted yes, but needing size/augmentation requirements. I would agree with it being a heavy weapon, so no barrel accessories, so no silencer. It would make a huge amount of noise, and probably draw an automatic HTR response team.

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 2 2007, 01:06 PM

QUOTE (Mistwalker)

Actually, my char does use a light pistol, loaded with S&S rounds of course, and a 30 round magazine.

I usually pack a machine pistol. My reasoning is that bursts bring it in line with a heavy pistol, and I still have the option of suppressive fire if needed.

Then again, Im a firm believer in that saying about the only purpose for a handgun being to fight your way to your rifle.

Posted by: nezumi Mar 2 2007, 01:59 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

So, with that in mind - why do you need an even heavier pistol when you can pack a regular Ares Alpha as if it was an Ares Predator anyway? The only reason is concealability, which can be taken care of with barrel reduction.

I assume you would also reduce the stock and, if possible, remove any forward hand grips.

So we now have an assault rifle with no long barrel, no stock and a single pistol grip. At this point, what makes it an assault rifle? Is it better considered an assault rifle, using the assault rifle skill, or an over-sized machine pistol?

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 2 2007, 02:22 PM

Hmm there are a few examples of what your describing already out there:

Sig 556 Pistol debuted at this years SHOT show:
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/735108408?a=tpc&cdra=Y&s=674608412&m=735108408&f=430601935

Almost half of bushmasters Carbon-15 Line of weapons:
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/Carbon15/

Krinkov's are pretty common in some parts of the middle east:
http://www.ak47review.com/gear/Gear_Review_Detail.php?g=gear1141107764

Im sure theres some others out there Im forgetting, but these aren't all that uncommon. There are some issues with them though, mainly obscenely huge muzzle flashes, combined with being EXTREMELY loud. Also, your not getting anywhere near the velocity you'd get out of a rifle because of the shorted barrel.

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 2 2007, 02:39 PM

Which are machine pistols or SMGs, which are already catered for. It's just an example of twinks wanting to get twinkier and looking for an excuse. There are ways and means of acheiving the ends wanted, using the rules provided. That's what I voted for, and therefore see no reason to add more devastating weaponry than is already out there. As I've already said, the only conceivable benefit is concealability, if you want to treat trolls as always wearing a long coat when clothed, that's fine.

At the end of the day, armourers aren't going to waste resources building bigger bullets for 1% of the population to have bigger guns, especially when that 1% are poor criminal trolls that no one likes!

Maybe during the course of gameplay you'll come across a one handed troll sized sports/sniper/assault rifle, but it'll just be a custom made sports/sniper/assault rifle and will follow all the established rules for sports/sniper/assault rifles.

Posted by: Lindt Mar 2 2007, 02:49 PM

There we go Hullbreach. A 5.56 pistol. And its SO scary.... I want one.

Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 2 2007, 02:51 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

At the end of the day, armourers aren't going to waste resources building bigger bullets for 1% of the population to have bigger guns, especially when that 1% are poor criminal trolls that no one likes!

Unless, of course, the armorer is a troll

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 2 2007, 02:57 PM

QUOTE (Mistwalker)

QUOTE (Darkest Angel @ Mar 2 2007, 09:39 AM)

Unless, of course, the armorer is a troll

Like I said, maybe you'd come across it during the game, but they're not exactly going to be mass produced.

I can see it now, engineer walks into Ares boardroom:

Engineer: "Hey guys, I got it! We can make bigger guns with bigger bullets for Trolls!"
Damien: "You want to give big scary stupid trolls - who have no money - bigger guns?"
Engineer *takes out mobile* "IT?... Yeah, I need some thoughts erasing?.... 5 minutes, I'll be right down."

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 2 2007, 03:10 PM

Reminds me of the Militech posters from CyberPunk 2020 which usually featured a good looking model holding a weapon:

"Big Guns for Big People"

Posted by: nezumi Mar 2 2007, 03:10 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

Which are machine pistols or SMGs, which are already catered for.

Except that the current selection of SMGs and machine pistols do not include sawed off assault rifles.

QUOTE

It's just an example of twinks wanting to get twinkier and looking for an excuse.

Wow, it has been a very long time since I've been called a twink. Don't make generalizations, they don't suit you

QUOTE

There are ways and means of acheiving the ends wanted, using the rules provided.

So your argument is, you can make/modify new weapons from existing ones, but use the existing rules?

QUOTE

You mean people with cyberlimbs? That is what originally sparked my interest, and that is what the CP2020 super heavy pistols are based upon.

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 2 2007, 03:17 PM

Honestly I don't even think a cyberlimb is entirely necessary. For long arms (assuming were going to evolve this into very heavy versions of most classes of firearm) you could probobly get away with some simple strength enhancements. For handguns/machinepistols I'd recommend bone lacing as a minimum and would highly recommend some kind of strength boost.

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 2 2007, 03:32 PM

Oh yeah, because there's loads of gun totting people with sufficiently strength enhanced cyberlimbs to market these too as well.

Look at the market today, there simply isn't huge demand for the .50AE because it's pointless because a 9mm or .45 can do the same job much more cheaply, thus pretty much only the DEagle can fire it. That only changes in SR, because there are big bad trolls and better armour to worry about. Just because Trolls and some modified humans could handle more power, doesn't create either a market or use for it. Just look at those .50BMG pistols - they're one offs for a reason.

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 2 2007, 03:45 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

Look at the market today, there simply isn't huge demand for the .50AE because it's pointless because a 9mm or .45 can do the same job much more cheaply, thus pretty much only the DEagle can fire it.

I used to own an upper receiver for my AR-15 chambered in .50AE made by a company called Tromix.

Your also missing the point: 9mm and .45 do the job fine nowadays because were shooting at normal humans in an enviroment where body armor is rare.

In 2060 body armor is the norm, and your not always shooting at humans. Hell, even when you are shooting at humans, they arent always as squishy as we are. Dermal plating would probobly make short work of a 9mm.

Posted by: nezumi Mar 2 2007, 03:45 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel @ Mar 2 2007, 10:32 AM)

Oh yeah, because there's loads of gun totting people with sufficiently strength enhanced cyberlimbs to market these too as well.

There's clearly a military and special ops use for them.

edit: Keep in mind, the vast majority of people can't use anything that uses .50 BMG, nor can they legally possess SMGs or flamethrowers or "armor penetrating ammunition". Yet these weapons are still possessed in sufficient quantities for them to be on the market, and for them to be on the street in SR.

My argument continues to be, there is a niche market for weapons too powerful to be handled by an unaugmented human. If your argument is fine, use existing weapons and modify them to fit into a different category (change an AK into an SMG or even a 'machine pistol') so as to avoid making a new category, that's fine, I'll note that. If your argument is that this market does not exist, or is too small to be worth noting, I would have to disagree strenuously.

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 2 2007, 04:06 PM

What? Flamethrowers and armour piercing munitions aren't exactly common on the street in SR. SMGs may be pretty common, but they're not unheard of on the street today.

My argument is that there may be a niche market for such heavily specialised weapons, just as there is the DEagle today - but such is the specialisation that it should be represented in availability. As I say, the desired effect can be acheived within the rules - if you want to allow that cut down AK to be fired on the Pistols skill, that's fine. At the end of the day, any one make and model in the book does represent 20 or 30 models and copies by a whole variety of manufacturers.

So, it's a case of Trolls and sufficiently cybered people can use it without penalty as though it's a pistol - to anyone else, it is an assault rifle.

Posted by: nezumi Mar 2 2007, 04:36 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

What? Flamethrowers and armour piercing munitions aren't exactly common on the street in SR. SMGs may be pretty common, but they're not unheard of on the street today.

I never said common on the street. I simply said 'on the street'. As flame throwers and APDS ammunitions are all listed in their assorted books, we can assume they are available to criminal elements and therefore, on the street.

QUOTE

My argument is that there may be a niche market for such heavily specialised weapons, just as there is the DEagle today - but such is the specialisation that it should be represented in availability.

That's fair.

QUOTE

So, it's a case of Trolls and sufficiently cybered people can use it without penalty as though it's a pistol - to anyone else, it is an assault rifle.

I don't know about that... I feel like a gun with no stock, a "short" barrel, and only one grip (so it cannot be properly used two handed) is not an assault rifle, regardless as to what it originally looked like. A sawed off shotgun (the streetsweeper) is no longer a shotgun, it is now a pistol.

Similarly, I would be hesitant to group our sawed off assault rifle in any current categories. Assault rifle? No, its made to be used one-handed. Machine pistol? Hrm... All machine pistols do a base of L damage, so it would seem sort of out of odds there. Heavy Pistol? Closer. The Thunderbolt is technically a machine pistol, but grouped with heavy pistols.

I think the question at that point is simply one of definitions, though. I don't feel like a sawed off assault rifle currently fits any of the existing categories, hence should be put into a new sub-category. I suppose you feel it can be forced into one of the existing categories (or even several).

Regardless, there are no sawed off assault rifles in the rules. They can be created with the rules, but there are not yet any examples. My question, poorly worded though it may have been, was more interested in whether these odd weapons would exist than how the rules would cope with them. It sounds like you are willing to accept that there would be a market for sawed-off assault rifles.

I suppose, reading the responses, that as a SA/SS handgun is scaled up in caliber, there is no reason why it still has the single-hand restriction. If the barrel is so short that there's no space for a fore grip, it gets no substantial benefits from having a larger bullet, so you might as well stick with a smaller caliber. If the barrel is long enough for the bullet to actually function as a bullet at that size, it can support a front grip and is basically a CQB, large-gauge shotgun. Does this sound reasonable?

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 2 2007, 05:12 PM

My point is that the weapons are built for Joe Average 3s accross the board stats man, and what catagory each weapon applies to, is how it would apply him. If you make a 'Very Heavy Pistol', everyone will want one, and want to be able to handle it as a pistol, when in fact Joe Average would need to hold it in two hands, just as they would with an Assault Rifle with a collapsable stock in it's folded down position. So, in terms of Joe Average - upon whom the catagories are based - you have just created yet another Assault Rifle - but, just as with regular Assault Rifles, trolls and particularly big and strong people can handle them like pistols.

Posted by: nezumi Mar 2 2007, 06:30 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

If you make a 'Very Heavy Pistol', everyone will want one, and want to be able to handle it as a pistol, when in fact Joe Average would need to hold it in two hands, just as they would with an Assault Rifle with a collapsable stock in it's folded down position.

I think this is where we truly disagree.

If I made a new category, VHP, it would be usable by Joe Average only if he were willing to be physically hurt when making each shot. In other words, the recoil is so extreme that it cannot be safely handled by a Strength 3 character.

I am unaware of any way that I could use a large pistol (say a desert eagle) with two hands "just as [I] would with an assault rifle with a collapsable stock in its folded down position". Perhaps if you could illuminate me as to how a single-grip pistol frame could be handled like a long gun, I'd agree with you.

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 2 2007, 08:03 PM

Which takes me back to the demand issue, only very specialised gunsmiths are going to produce such a thing, because the market for something like that would be tiny. You assess the actual cost of augmenting a normal human to be able to withstand such a weapon you're suggesting, and convince me that anyone, even a major corp, is going to go to such an expense, on such a regular basis that they need this weapon? A pistol is a backup, not a first choice, anything around the size you're suggesting is already bigger than a lot of SMGs, which are primary weapons.

Sure, there's trolls and cybered threats around, but that's why Heavy Pistols are popular and no one uses a Hold Out. It's why corp security has rapid response teams with ARs and SMGs. It's why Lone Star pack Thunderbolts.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 2 2007, 08:14 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

And that is precisely what the availability table is meant to represent. There was something that very likely fits the description of the VHP in SR3 with Eichiro Hatamoto. Didn't even break your wrist to fire it, but the availability on it was quite high, as was the Street Index. If Cannon Companion had rules for upgrading the M on a Heavy Pistol to an S, at the cost of most of its ammo storage, inability to mount barrel accessories, and more than likely use an internal magazine. The whole idea is that you waste the fragger with the couple shots you've got in it while you make your way to something more effective, or just take the poor sod's, whose head is now a bloody splatter on the wall, weapon that is hopefully an SMG or larger. It's precisely why my SR3 streetsam packed a Savalette Guardian and an Eichiro Hatamoto. While the burst on the Guardian is a complex action, I've managed to take an armored troll down in that one burst before. It took down a sizeable threat and allowed me to take his AR and hose down the remaining opposition.

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 2 2007, 08:24 PM

Thanks for proving my point. Why produce a VHP when a regular HP with BF is sufficiently adequate to do the same job and anyone can use it?

The title of the thread is "is the VHP necessary?" You have demonstrated perfectly why it is not imho necessary.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 2 2007, 08:32 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

I'm arguing that the top end HPs are realistically VHPs that could be expanded upon more.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Mar 3 2007, 01:35 AM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

What? Flamethrowers and armour piercing munitions aren't exactly common on the street in SR. SMGs may be pretty common, but they're not unheard of on the street today.

You're probably not aware that in the United States some people own machine guns. Not assault rifles or SMGs, but actual machine guns like Browning Automatic Rifles and M60s.

So, I don't think your analogy holds water.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Mar 3 2007, 03:28 AM

IIRC, doesn't that require more tape manuevering. Something like, competency course, back ground check, and an endorsement from the local sheriff or some such?

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Mar 3 2007, 03:39 AM

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)

IIRC, doesn't that require more tape manuevering. Something like, competency course, back ground check, and an endorsement from the local sheriff or some such?

I'm not totally read up on the process but I think the hardest part is getting some paperwork successfully through the ATF. It's not as trival to own them as it is (relatively speaking) a handgun or shotgun, no.

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 3 2007, 03:57 AM

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)

IIRC, doesn't that require more tape manuevering. Something like, competency course, back ground check, and an endorsement from the local sheriff or some such?

Going through this process myself. It sucks, and is expensive, but it's the only way to get access to the fun toys. Basically it consists of a federal background check, $200 tax, and LOTS of paperwork. The entire process is intended to discourage ownership by annoyance.

Sad part is, Im not even bagging an automatic, I just want to put a front grip on a Bushmaster Carbon-15.

Back on subject though, this topic does breach an even larger one: If a player can get away with larger than normal pistols, what about super-heavy variants on longarms?

10 and even 8 gauge shotguns are within this realm of possibillity. Or a .300wsm Assault rifle. So many sick ideas...

Posted by: nezumi Mar 3 2007, 03:59 AM

Yeah, plus there may be state restrictions.

If you already had a gov't background check for your job, does that count?

Posted by: Garrowolf Mar 3 2007, 04:04 AM

Okay I dont understand the argument that no one would produce a gun for a specialized portion of the population. The game already has metahuman modifications as a feature. We have very specialized guns right now. What is the problem?

I dont think that the question should be is the VHP necessary. I think that it should be why isnt it already in the game. It doesnt make sense as a game balence issue. Shadowrun has always had poor game balence. None of this stuff is all that balenced in the first place.

You shoot someone with a high skill and a heavy gun then they die. It's a deadly game. Magic users are deadly too.

Heavy weapons and strength are the schtick of Trolls. Let them have that and move on.

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 3 2007, 04:04 AM

QUOTE (nezumi)

Yeah, plus there may be state restrictions.

If you already had a gov't background check for your job, does that count?

Negative. It's got to be a fresh one. The BATFE doesn't play well with others.

Hell, I'd love to get one of these, as theyre considered Class 3 as well:
http://www.anzioironworks.com/MAG-FED-20MM-RIFLE.htm

Too bad I don't have that kind of scratch on hand.

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 3 2007, 09:17 AM

QUOTE (Garrowolf)

Modifying an existing weapon is a lot cheaper than designing, testing, and producing a whole new one.

Trolls, iirc are like 1% of the population, the vast majority are poor and live in slum districts. Heavily cybered people from every other race combined add up to even less, so catering for wealthy enough trolls and wealthy enough heavily cybered people is catering for a fringe of a fringe - big corps just don't do that, they churn out what they can sell thousands of.

Those very specialised guns around today are made to order by small time gunsmiths. I've never argued with that. The stuff in the books however, is based on what is readily available and produced in sufficient quantities that you could to run into them on the street. Every 'counter' I've seen so far is "but you can get this today!" so what? they're all insanely rare toys that have been sold in numbers that barely exceed double figures. I see no reason to include something like that in canon.

Posted by: knasser Mar 3 2007, 11:01 AM

Don't there have to be troll sized variant weapons due to trolls inability to use normal sized weapons?

A while back I sketched out the actual size differences in different metahumans according to SR4 BBB. http://www.knasser.me.uk/content/shadowrun/metatypes.png. Look at the difference between a troll and a human. Unless trolls have comically small hands for their build, I wouldn't think they'd be able to use most standard firearms comfortably (confirmation from the gun nuts, please).

So if any trolls are to have firearms (esp. pistols) in your game, then we're already saying that there has to be a custom market. And if that's the case, then I can certainly see the possibility of this market providing more power too, whether for marketing purposes or an actual need in a world where body armour is frequently worn and you have people who can shrug off lighter rounds. The argument that it is catering to a "fringe of a fringe" and therefore not economically viable is a pretty weak one because with a world population of, let's say, six billion, that's sixty million trolls out there to sell to.

And if you want to say that trolls are also marginalised and poor, then I'd say that means an increased desire on their part for firearms that outweighs any difficulty in paying. If you're saying that all the kids in the USA that have firearms have well-paying middle-class jobs, then I think you're mistaken.

And finally, in countries with a lot of civil unrest (of which there are plenty in 2070), I'd say that trolls are going to be used in militias and armies quite extensively. There is an incentive to arm these trolls so somebody somewhere will make them. these weapons. And if so, then a Shadowrunner should be able to get hold of them, too.

The only question is whether or not these troll weapons would be made with extra power. I know very little about guns, but I think the case that there was a use for this in the cybered, trolled-up body-armour loving world of 2070 was put quite convincingly earlier in the thread by people more knowledgeable on the subject than me.

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 3 2007, 11:52 AM

I'm not saying they wouldn't be made, and I'm certainly not saying they couldn't be made. What I am saying is this, in a world of around 4bn (thanks to VITAS and no small amount of genocide, civil wars and other upheaval), you have 40,000,000 trolls, most of whom live in countries with pretty tough gun control laws, so getting such a thing legally would involve some serious hoop jumping - not easy for sinless trolls - your market would be actually pretty microscopic - you're talking about arming up a few hundred official troops/security and paramilitary police (your main market) and a small number of insurgents (you illicit market) - most of whom would be the heavy weapons guy in the squad, so would be kitted out with PACs, HMGs, or Vindicators instead of poxy pistols. So what? You're producing a sidearm for the one guy in the squad who needs it least. Seriously, the only legit guy in that list who might carry one is the police troll, so your legal market consists of a few gun nuts in North America, a couple of hundred policemen worldwide, and some terrorists. That's not going to net you a major profit.

Now, there are reasons for standard issue as well, in NATO, the British, Americans, Germans and Italians all use different rifles, but they all fire 5.56mm NATO ammunition and all accept the exact same magazines - why? So in a combat situation, Johnny British can shout 'need ammo' to his US counterpart, who can throw him a clip and Johnny can use it. Same applies within a squad. Heavy weapons chap uses a M249, it uses 5.56mm - same as an M16, SA80, and G3 - why? So the ammunition can be spread round the squad and everyone can use it. Standard issue sidearms in NATO are 9mm, why? So ammo can be passed round to where it's needed. There's also the economic factor, it's far cheaper to ship in 50million rounds of 5.56mm NATO than to ship in dribs and drabs of different types - that's never going to change. So not only is it not viable to sell them like that, it's not practical to buy or use them like that.

Posted by: Butterblume Mar 3 2007, 03:02 PM

G3 and MG3 both use 7,62mm. Just saying .
(granted, the G36 uses 5,56mm, but it's fairly new, 1995 or so. The new MG4 isn't in active service yet, as far as I know)

Edit: oh, on topic: how many people would actually buy a mag lock sequenzer and stuff like that? Certainly less than 40 million .

Posted by: knasser Mar 3 2007, 05:48 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel @ Mar 3 2007, 11:52 AM)

Leaving aside my essential point, which is that trolls probably can't use standard sized weapons so that there would have to custom made guns anyway, I think there's a few holes in what you said.

The 4bn figure I think is unlikely. I already picked 6bn as a compromise between the decimation from VITAS and the fact that by 2070, we'd almost certainly see a huge swell in the population (it's over 6 billion now). I think your 4 billion is way too conservative. But even allowing that, I can't dismiss a potential market of 40 million customers as not worth the time. The way that you made a few general statements and reduced 40 million to

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

so your legal market consists of a few gun nuts in North America, a couple of hundred policemen worldwide, and some terrorists.

is a little outrageous. And quite frankly, in the world of Shadowrun, it is not valid to count only the legal market and dismiss the black market at all

Not that I agree the legal market is a few hundred policemen, gun nuts and "terrorists" (a term that has become useless in the last five years) You say most of them live in countries with tough gun control. In 2070, most of the world has gone through intense periods of civil unrest and many parts remain that way. Even a corporation-heavy nation such as the UCAS has large, lawless areas in many of its cities (Seattle being the BBB example). And most of the firearms in the book are legality R, not F. So if a troll is a SINer, then they can apply and probably get one. If the troll is SINless, then they can get a gun from their local street dealer. What I'm saying is that there is a market that is more than large enough to be worth catering for. The only issue is supplying the customer and in a world as crime ridden (and perhaps more importantly balkanised) as the world of 2070, there's always someone who knows someone. Heck, you can probably order them off the matrix without hitting too much legal supervision.

I'm sticking by what I said, which is that there will be mass-market weapons for trolls. The only question then, is if you're making custom weapons, is it worth making them more powerful at the same time? That depends on whether its a good selling point or not. People earlier made some fairly convincing (to me) arguments that in the world of Shadowrun it would be, so I'm going with that.

I don't think the ammunition issue would be a big problem. Most people don't go through ammunition the way a shadowrun team does. Tariq the Troll who lives quietly at home, probably has a box of 30 in his bedside drawer and I don't see why no-one would mass-produce them as they can't be that complicated in manufacturing terms. If you've sold the guns, you know you're going to sell the ammunition.

Posted by: The Stainless Steel Rat Mar 3 2007, 07:19 PM

I voted "Yes, with Recoil Comp or Strength Requirement", but would like instead to say "Yes, with double or more recoil depending on design." The thing is, http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/airborne_combat_engineer/2005/02/zeleska_600_nit.html

Anybody with decent Pistols B/R skill and a Shop can build a pistol that will fire any ammo available. For that matter, the same individual could create any sized ammunition, so the size of weapons really has no limit. It's just a GM call on whether any created weapon can be used in their game, and if so, to reach an agreement with the player on how the rules would work.

Personally I would use the CC firearm creation rules, but either allow multiple uses of the "Barrel Reduction" option, or create a new option called "Pistol Variant" that reduces range to HP. Raygun has http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/ammo/cartridg.html for any caliber round in varying sized firearms.

Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 3 2007, 07:22 PM

I agree with Knasser,

There will be a market for these oversized weapons, VHPs etc...
There are trolls that are very rich, in cannon, that own corporation, so I do not see why they would not start a production line of of Troll sized VHPs. Even if Ares didn't start one, just to try and get more of a market share, others would. If you can make a profit, someone will make the weapons.

Most of the world does not have strict gun control laws. The UK managed to keep them, but not very many other places.

One of the questions that I have is, would a 50 calibler pistol round be able to go thru an engine block?

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 3 2007, 07:28 PM

QUOTE (Mistwalker)

One of the questions that I have is, would a 50 calibler pistol round be able to go thru an engine block?

Depends on the engine in question and where you hit it, doesn't it?

An M903 SLAP round fired at 3000fps can probably manage something like 20mm to an inch of armor steel at close range. That's enough to get through most light APCs, but I have no idea how it rates in car engines.

A Mk 211 Mod 0 at 2200fps would seriously fuck up any car engine it hits even if it's unlikely to penetrate, however.

Posted by: hyzmarca Mar 3 2007, 07:31 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel @ Mar 3 2007, 06:52 AM)

I most of whom live in countries with pretty tough gun control laws, so getting such a thing legally would involve some serious hoop jumping

Actually, local gun control laws are meaningless in a world where extraterritorial stores are commonplace. If you walk into an Ares Weapons Emporium located in London, you are not on British soil; you're on Ares soil. No matter how strict London's gun laws are, they do nothing to prevent you from buying any gun from that Ares store.

A lot of gun control nuts in places with tough gun control laws blame all of their problems on smuggling from places that have light gun control laws. In some ways, this is true, although the best solution is to repeal their own stupid laws rather than complaining about the laws that other jurisdictions have.

In the Sixth World, the this issue is much more obvious. When I'm standing in an Ares-owned gun store Ares gun control laws apply to my firearms purchases and only Ares gun control laws apply to my firearms purchases. The laws outside of the store do not matter one bit. considerings that Ares is an arms dealer, I imagine that their laws are quite lax.

Posted by: ronin3338 Mar 3 2007, 07:45 PM

I would allow VHPs under very specific circumstances.

First, there are not that many trolls, so mass producing a pistol specifically for them is not cost effective.

Second, there's not really a "need" for a huge pistol. The large caliber pistols, SMGs, and new, compact ARs give plenty of firepower.

However, I would allow a custom made, or pre-production weapon. It would be temperamental, pricey, or both. Honestly, there's no reason that you couldn't make a troll sized zip-gun or something like that. I've seen .50 cal. "pistols" and while they are few and far between, modifying one for a troll's grip wouldn't be difficult if you can find one.

And yes, I would impose a minimum STR to use it (like a bow) unless it was heavily comp'd for recoil (and maybe even then, depending on how it was comp'd), and you can forget about concealability.

Posted by: knasser Mar 3 2007, 08:05 PM

QUOTE (Ronin3338)

First, there are not that many trolls, so mass producing a pistol specifically for them is not cost effective.

*cough* 60 million worldwide. And as someone pointed out, more predominently in the sectors of society that would want a gun. If Amazon can make money selling and posting me a £6.99 book, I think someone can do it with a 350

gun.

QUOTE (Ronin3338)

Second, there's not really a "need" for a huge pistol. The large caliber pistols, SMGs, and new, compact ARs give plenty of firepower.

Body armour isn't frequently worn by gangs, today. Materials science has moved on by 2070 and so has the level of violence in society increased. Plus there are trolls who are naturally resistant to smaller bullets and others who are augmented against them. And magic. And quite frankly most of the people who have guns don't "need" them. There's a status, image thing, as well as the pleasure some people take in something powerful. That says 'market,' to me.

I don't know anything about guns, though, so whether there is an actual advantage in these things in 2070 terms, someone else will have to chime in. I would guess getting hit by one of these would give more of a 'kick' regardless of penetration through armour.

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 3 2007, 08:34 PM

QUOTE (The Stainless Steel Rat)

Point to where I disputed that.

It does not change the following facts about todays HPs, for example the .50AE Desert Eagle.

1) They are not produced on anything like the scale of a 9mm Browning or Berreta, or .45 Colt.
2) They are not in wide circulation in security, military, or paramiltary circles.
3) They are not even in wide circulation in private handgun circles.

The same is going to be true of VHPs in SR for the reasons I've given, armies, security forces, and paramilitaries are still going to be overwhelmingly human, with probably a fair few Orks who are equally human sized. As a result of this, to ensure weapon availability and ammunition availability to everyone, the key customers of Ares and their ilk are going to want lots of the same weapons, with a few customs for Trolls and Dwarves that use the same ammunition as is easily usable for the overwhelming majority of personnel. As I say, if said force wants to make use of a Trolls greater strength, they're going to hand them a HMG or PAC - they're NOT going to hand them a specialist pistol that can only be used by another 6 guys in that regiment, heck they're not going to hand him any pistol - I don't know of any army that issues sidearms to grunts. No point, no market there. In the security sector, where grunts may well get an SMG and a sidearm, they're not going to hand them a VHP as a sidearm, again the SMG is weapon #1 and, being an SMG will share ammo with the pistols, they're not going to want to ship in a limited amount of special calibre ammo for two or three guys. That leaves you with the private sector, which in numbers compared to military spending is pocket change - this is where you would find the market, but trolls being trolls aren't going to have an easy time aquiring legal firearms anywhere in the world. Some will, but they are going to number in the thousands worldwide as opposed to the millions of Predators Ares ship out.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 3 2007, 08:41 PM

I'm sorry, your logic simply does not make sense. Look at the Smith and Wesson 500. It's pretty much meant for big game hunting, very big game hunting, the barrel alone is huge. I've actually handled one, it's heavy as fuck. I'd classify it as a VHP being marketed to a very limited market... even MORE limited than your troll market you keep harping on, to which we have on many occassions pointed out are NOT the only market. There are people cybered to the gills, trolls, orks, enthusiasts, mercs, and spec ops teams. You can't port around an HMG or PAC very easily, versus the VHP which you can holster and not worry about every dick and jane on the street know what you are packing.

Posted by: Crakkerjakk Mar 3 2007, 09:08 PM

I think an important point that may have been overlooked here is that for most military type folks, a pistol is a sidearm. Currently, I don't know of any sidearm issued to a military that will go through body armor of the sort issued to every soldier in the US military. They will all be stopped. I voted on the "no" side of this issue, and I guess my problem with the whole thing is that people are wanting a pistol to be something that it's not, in my mind. Military tech is always a race between offensive and defensive. Plate armor was the be-all end-all of defensive tech, till someone invented the musket(and to some extent the long-bow.) I personally am okay with the thought that a pistol round will be stopped by most body armor. Creating a bigger pistol, to me, is not the way to solve the problem that body armor is sufficiently advanced to be highly effective. Besides, you make a better gun, if it's possible, someones just gonna make better armor. Not to mention the fact that when you make a handgun that will drop trolls fairly easily, it's probably gonna be about the size at least of a machine pistol and maybe even a SMG.

Yes there are big guns out there today. But the equipement list in the book is bare bones. If you actually want a whole new category of pistols, why not a new category of everything else? To me this seems like trying to make it so that pistols fill the niche that the rest of the weapons list is meant to occupy. I mean, what precisely is the difference between a VHP and a short barrel shotgun with a pistol grip firing slug rounds? The VHP has a slide or a cylinder instead of an internal mag and a pump?

Not to mention you make a huge honkin pistol designed to drop trolls, it's gonna leave watermelon sized holes in normal folks. I dunno. My philosophy on adding things to my games has always been reductionist. If there's a hole in the game, or problems with the rules, I try to make a patch that sticks with the spirit of the rules and works according to how I think reality should. But for things that are merely "cool" I am much more wary of adding them to the game. I feel like if you add bigger and bigger guns to shadowrun, eventually you have runners driving Main Battle Tanks down the road on their way to the run, and toting around flamethrowers and manportable masers. I don't like the escalation.

My two cents, and I felt like it was a little different than the whole supply issue everyone else has been arguing.

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 3 2007, 09:45 PM

QUOTE (X-Kalibur)

Again, my case in point. How many S&W 500s are produced annually? How many are used by police, military and paramilitaries?

Posted by: knasser Mar 3 2007, 09:52 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

QUOTE (The Stainless Steel Rat @ Mar 3 2007, 08:19 PM)

If you're arguing that cost and availability is higher, then I'm not going to dispute that. I think it's a GM judgement call, but certainly can be argued. I think if you say that there aren't going to be VHP's though, then I disagree for the reasons I've given.

I've noticed one difference in our assumptions which is that you keep referring to trolls being SINless or not likely to have a legal ability to get such a weapon. There is racism and probably a higher proportion of trolls are going to be SINless than humans. But I don't think it's a big swing. It sounds as though in your game "legal" trolls are the exception. There are many many legitimate citizens of UCAS and elsewhere that are trolls. And these are just as able to get a firearms permit as a human.

But again, I think whether the market is "legal" or not is much less significant than you portray it to be. With endless different juristictions (Ares, UCAS, Renraku) all jumbled up together, legal is a much greyer area. If trolls want these things, then someone will make and sell them. It's just too large a market to ignore.

Regarding the ammo, you are right that it is less convenient, but (though I don't know much about this), I would guess bullets aren't that complicated to make and the ammo would be available. There are all sorts of niche markets in real life that do very well. I think larger bullets would be an easy one. Most people who own a pistol don't worry excessively about running out of ammo. I don't want to know what scenario you picture where you think "I would buy this better gun, but I better not, because if I want to shoot more than 16 people, I wont be able to borrow the bullets from my mate's gun."

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 3 2007, 09:52 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

Again, my case in point. How many S&W 500s are produced annually? How many are used by police, military and paramilitaries?

Your still missing the point we've made. There isn't a need for that kind of firepower and scale of weapon today.

There is a need in the world as described by Shadowrun.

Posted by: Butterblume Mar 3 2007, 10:06 PM

QUOTE (Crakkerjakk)

How about the MP7? I hear they can penetrate body armor at a decent range, but I shockingly don't know anything about current body armor

.

Probably not a good example for SR, because the ridicoulus small 4,6mm ammunition is already armor piercing.

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 3 2007, 10:26 PM

QUOTE (Butterblume)

How about the MP7? I hear they can penetrate body armor at a decent range, but I shockingly don't know anything about current body armor

.

Probably not a good example for SR, because the ridicoulus small 4,6mm ammunition is already armor piercing.

It uses the same principles as the 5.7x28mm ammunition the P-90 fires. Its a small caliber low mass but very high velocity projectile.

While they are very capable of penetrating most modern body armors, the terminal wounding characteristics of these weapons are pretty unimpressive. They are actually only about as effective as a .22mag once they get to the meat.

Posted by: Crakkerjakk Mar 3 2007, 10:31 PM

Sorry, usually when I say pistol, I mean, like, something you can fit into a holster. If you're carrying a rifle, you're not also going to be carrying one of these. I'm still not entirely clear on the difference between a SMG and a machine pistol....

Looking at the wiki for it, though, it states that the rounds it uses are actually AP rounds, being made out of a "hardened steel penetrator instead of softer brass or lead." It goes on to state that the round is almost unique to the weapon. It's not that the round is small that makes it AP, it's because it is small and uses a lot of powder, and is made out of hardened steel, it will bust through body armor. A .22 LR (Long Rifle, standard round fired by .22 rifles) round is small, but won't go through body armor. The 5.56 round fired by the M-16, although about the same size as the .22 LR round in diameter, will go through body armor(unless it hits a trauma plate), because there is more powder behind it, and this results in a higher velocity.

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 3 2007, 10:38 PM

QUOTE (Crakkerjakk)

This got me thinking, and Im working on producing a sort of 'spectrum of weapons' that would start with derringers and run clean through to heavy machineguns, while highlighting the distinct properties that make each fit into its own particular niche.

I also think that SR should expand to include a category for medium pistols to represent calibers like the .40S&W and .357Sig

Posted by: Crakkerjakk Mar 3 2007, 10:54 PM

*lip quivers* My Sig isn't a medium pistol.... it's not it's not it's not!

(Eliza doesn't hold it against you Hull. Eliza being my P226, chambered in the .40S&W)

Really though, I would call a 9mm medium, but you'd include the .40 and .357?

Posted by: Butterblume Mar 3 2007, 11:10 PM

The MP7 fits into a holster, which is behind the whole idea of the PDW (personal defense weapon) as sidearm. Of course, unless you're special forces, the normal rifleman wouldn't carry one, but those doesn't carry pistols either.

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 3 2007, 11:55 PM

QUOTE (Crakkerjakk)

Hmmm....I in no way meant to insult your lady freind there!

Let me explain my reasoning and how I would have broken out the groupings:

Holdout Pistols:
Holdout pistols are weapons that are designed with concealabillity as their primary purpose. These are small weapons which rarely hold more than 5-6 shots, with most only holding 2-4. These are sometimes chambered in the same calibers as heavy pistols.

Light Pistols:
This category covers semiautomatic handguns or revolvers chambered in the range of .17hmr to .380acp. These are light weapons which often have capacities in excess of 15 rounds.

Medium Pistols:
This category covers semiautomatic handguns or revolvers chambered in the range of 9x19mm through .357magnum. These are medium-weight weapons popular with police and militaries for there excellent balance between stopping power and capacity. Capacities will range from 10-17 rounds. The rounds fired by these weapons are generally faster and lighter than those of the heavy pistols, making them a little more capable against modern soft armors.

Heavy Pistols:
This category covers semiautomatic handguns or revolvers chambered in the range of .45acp through .44magnum. These are designed to throw big mean chuncks of lead downrange, and are intended to be capable of one-shot stops. Follow up shots are sometimes a little difficult with these weapons due to their more robust recoil.

Very Heavy Pistols:
This category covers all semiautomatic handguns and revolvers in the range of .454 Casull on up. These are large, expensive, and a little exotic in the world of firearms. Most commonly used for hunting, these are useful in the shadowrun universe as two-legged varmits tend to have tougher skins nowadays.

Machine Pistols:
Machine pistols are any pistols capable of select fire.

Posted by: Garrowolf Mar 4 2007, 04:05 AM

You have a small portion of the population that is primarily thought of as thugs. They are stronger then a human and tougher. They are being used as bodyguards, bouncers, and thugs by several groups. They would be commonly be used as heavy weapons infantry in several armies. Probably a much higher percentage of them would be using weapons then of humans.

The setting is a bit dark. Street life is dangerous. Larger number of street people are armed then current era.

Everything points to not a small number of customers but a large number of large customers.

On top of that a Troll can't really use a human sized gun. That means that for the few manufacturers that have Troll Scale weapons they would have a dedicated client base.

The metahuman variant isn't free either so you can't say that no one would buy it because they already buy it.

Something that size would have problems with very small objects. I know people with large hands that can't grab small things as it is. Add bumpy skin from Troll skin and I think that it would be like trying to load a revolver with space suit gloves.

Make a large solid heavy gun that loads rifle rounds. They can handle the weight and the kick. There is your VHP.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 4 2007, 06:27 AM

QUOTE (Garrowolf)

Hell, they have a handgun in Fallout and Fallout 2 that fires .223 FMJ. That alone should be a good enough reason to have them in SR

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 4 2007, 10:16 AM

You're not going to convince me. Like I say, where they may come in "useful" they're superceded by more readily available weapons such as sawn off shotguns, the Thunderbolt, Guardian, Warhawk and Hatamoto. No major buyers are going to get them in, so you're left with the private market, which will simply make them more costly and harder to find. IMG they'd be a custom build. Custom or rare weapons such as those aren't going to be helpful once someone is after you, they connect you to all your previous felonies. You don't want that.

Seriously, the fact that troll and dwarf customisation costs so much more is reflection enough of the market as it is. If they were that common they would produce them at no extra cost.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 4 2007, 11:28 AM

What, 25% more? Most weapons are under 2000 so I don't see that as too big a factor. Hell, you pay that much a premium to get a left-handed guitar these days.

Posted by: nezumi Mar 4 2007, 01:22 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

Like I say, where they may come in "useful" they're superceded by more readily available weapons such as sawn off shotguns, the Thunderbolt, Guardian, Warhawk and Hatamoto.

Frankly, I'd consider the Hatamoto (and possibly the Warhawk) as VHPs anyway. I can't imagine *I* as an 'average human' would be able to fire either without hurting myself.

Hullbreach - your definitions don't cover revolvers, which are SS.

Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 4 2007, 01:32 PM

For the argument that there would be a problem due to getting in ammo for the VHP in the army, well, how many types of ammo are already in use? 9mm pistol, .45 ACP, SMG ammo (may be the same as pistol ammo), P90 ammo, assault rifle ammo, sniper rifle ammo (various calibers), LMG, MMG, HMG, and so on.
So, I would say it would not be a problem to get VHP ammo in a military unit.

For the argument that they would issue them with MGs or PACs, well, that is fine, as long as you are in the field, with long sight lines. Once you get them into built up areas, they will need another weapon (their back up weapon?)

Special forces would probably love to have a pistol with extreme stopping power for close quarters combat, be the wielder a troll, or heavily augmented human, orc or elf.
Bodyguards would love to have that same stopping power, one shot take down, even if the target is a car (tis why I asked if it could cause problems to the engine block of a vehicle) that is trying to run down their client.

For a comparison of today, do you really need an assault rifle to go hunting, bamby hunting? No, but there is a large number of assault rifles that have been sold so that their owners could go hunting if they so wanted. It is partly status symbol, partly self-defence. If you could effectively wield bigger guns, then more people would own them.

The only argument that I have heard against VHP that had me pause a bit, was the one about game balance. Which is why I originally said that I couldn't see barrel attachements for VHP, to treat them like heavy weapons, so no nifty silencer. No silencer, massive noise everytime it is shot, most likely having the report automatically upgraded to HTR response, fast mage astral scouting, and in general, a higher and faster response all around, due to the fact that either trolls or augmented humand, ork or elves involved (responders are probably praying that it not be augmented trolls).

Will I go out and immediately create these? No.
I will look at it if a player asks, or if I come up with a good plot line for them, or someone else does all the work and I can lift their efforts into my world.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 4 2007, 01:43 PM

QUOTE (Mistwalker)

No. Not in the real world anyway. The pistol ammunition is the same as the SMG ammunition: 9x19mm M882 NATO standard ball/FMJ. Assault rifle and LMG/SAW ammunition is the same: 5.56x45mm M855 NATO standard ball/FMJ, with M856 NATO standard tracer rounds thrown in for good measure. GPMG ammunition is the same caliber as most sniper rifles: 7.62x51mm M80 NATO standard ball/FMJ and M62 NATO standard tracer, or M118 special (more accurate) ball/FMJ when available for the sniper rifles. Anti-material rifles and HMG again use the exact same ammo: 12.7x99mm ball/FMJ, API, SLAP and MP.

That's 4 different calibers, with weapons in those calibers using interchangeable ammunition, to serve every major small arm in the US Army inventory.

Special forces often do their own thing anyway, so this means little for them. Judging by the fact that they rarely go beyond .45 ACP, I doubt they'd be hugely enamored by the idea of a massive, clumsy, low-capacity weapon using a rare type of ammunition, unless they might need to engage trolls or other very large critters in close quarters along with generic types of threats that require them to bring in all their normal weaponry as well.

Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 4 2007, 01:58 PM

The P-90 isn't part of the use arsenal? I thought it was, which is why I included it, as it is a different caliber than the usual 5.56, it is a 5.7. As well, there is a pistol that uses that ammo, the FN Five-seveN. Is that not also part of the US arsenal?

Again, I was under the impression that the 45 ACP pistol was still part of the US arsenal as well.

Don't the Marines use a 30-06 sniper rifle? or am I confusing them with someone else?

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 4 2007, 02:20 PM

Neither the FN F-N or P90 are even type classified for the US military AFAIK, let alone in use in significant amounts. I cannot rule out the possibility that lone US servicemen, especially as part of special operation forces, might personally make use of those weapons, but they are not part of the US Army inventory.

.45 ACP handguns are in use by the US Marine Corps (the MEU(SOC) pistols) and some other special forces units (M1911s, Mk 23 Mod 0s). Someone can check the other procurement budgets (I can't connect to finance.hq.navy.mil at the moment for some reason), but .45 ACP doesn't appear in the US Army procurement budgets at all between 2005 and 2009.

Obviously there are small arms in other calibers in use in the US Armed Forces -- shotguns, .22 LR special purpose weapons, and .300 Winchester Magnum sniper rifles, for example -- but the numbers are so small that I felt limiting my above message to the "major small arms" was not misleading. "Special purpose weapons", like the VHP would be if it ever did come into any kind of use by militaries, would simply fall outside the ammo standardization systems, and would only see use by special operations forces when there is an overriding need for one and no pre-existing weapon system would fill the role as well.

Posted by: Butterblume Mar 4 2007, 02:27 PM

QUOTE (Mistwalker)

The P-90 isn't part of the use arsenal? I thought it was

To much watching Stargate perhaps, where the P90 is standard issue

Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 4 2007, 03:01 PM

QUOTE (Butterblume)

QUOTE (Mistwalker)

The P-90 isn't part of the use arsenal? I thought it was

To much watching Stargate perhaps, where the P90 is standard issue

Got it.

That and reading some reports about special forces using them, as well as them being considered for armored personnel.

Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 4 2007, 03:05 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

Obviously there are small arms in other calibers in use in the US Armed Forces -- shotguns, .22 LR special purpose weapons, and .300 Winchester Magnum sniper rifles, for example -- but the numbers are so small that I felt limiting my above message to the "major small arms" was not misleading. "Special purpose weapons", like the VHP would be if it ever did come into any kind of use by militaries, would simply fall outside the ammo standardization systems, and would only see use by special operations forces when there is an overriding need for one and no pre-existing weapon system would fill the role as well.

Never doubted that you were trying to mislead. I have always found your posts factual and helpful.

But you have, in a back handed way, helped prove my point how that getting VHP ammo in the military wouldn't be extremely hard, as long as they were issue for someone.

I never expected that the VHP would be standard issue (unless you have an all troll or augmented force), but do expect that you would be able to get ammo for it, as long as you filled out the proper paperwork.

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 4 2007, 03:31 PM

Well until very recently (from a historical standpoint) it wasn't uncommon for troops to provide some of ther own weapons and ammo. A great example of this is that in WW2 while the Germans were issued the Luger, many chose to purchase and use Mausers instead.

In the American Civil War (or the War of Northern Agression for you southern types) there are several examples of wealthy officers to nearly bankrupting themselves to outfit their units with the latest and most advanced weapons availible.

I have an uncle who actually had his girlfreind mail him his shotgun while he was in Viet Nam.

There has been talk in some circles nowadays about allowing troops to provide their own sidearms if they choose, but I (sadly) think its just wishful thinking.

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 4 2007, 05:05 PM

QUOTE (Mistwalker @ Mar 4 2007, 04:05 PM)

I never expected that the VHP would be standard issue (unless you have an all troll or augmented force), but do expect that you would be able to get ammo for it, as long as you filled out the proper paperwork.

That I don't doubt, but: Grunts. Don't. Get. Sidearms.

QUOTE

Special forces would probably love to have a pistol with extreme stopping power for close quarters combat

If that were true, they'd all carry DEagles today. They don't.

Posted by: hyzmarca Mar 4 2007, 05:37 PM

Ammo standardization doesn't really hurt the VHP because a VHP could use standard rifle or machine gun ammo.

One problem with implementing this in SR3 is that rifle ammo is less able to pierce armor than pistol ammo is due to game balance decisions, meaning that putting rifle cartridges into a pistol will make it less effective rather than more effective. The better solution is a very heavy rifle which uses heavy pistol ammo.

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 4 2007, 05:38 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

If that were true, they'd all carry DEagles today. They don't.

I can't speak for other branches, but Marine Recon (our SF) carry .45's for this reason. A .45 is enough to stop a man nowadays. In the time of SR, where your dealing with widespread use of bodyarmor and tougher than normal targets, somthing bigger would be needed.

The point were making is that whats overkill today will be routine tomorrow due to the changed nature of what your shooting at.

I think alot of folks are trying to approach this with a 2007 mindset, and thats why what were suggesting seems absurd.

Posted by: knasser Mar 4 2007, 05:42 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

That I don't doubt, but: Grunts. Don't. Get. Sidearms.

I don't know if that's true or not, but why should a troll be a grunt, just because he is a troll? You can have a troll with a Logic of 5 which is far smarter than most people. If the average troll has a logic of 2, then that means there's a lot of trolls out there with logic of 3, which is reasonably smart and I would certainly think is a good enough basis to be an officer on with the right skills and knowledges.

But given that there's such a huge potential market, the only real question, as I've said before, is whether trolls would want these weapons. HullBreach has already illustrated that soldiers may well be bringing along their own little knick knacks (and a troll can certainly carry the extra weight and ammo, so I don't see many officers having a huge problem with it). And given the bigger and tougher targets you get running around in 2070, as well as a lot of trolls wanting to seem tougher than tough, I think quite a few would shell out the 600

for something a bit more special.

IMO.

Posted by: nezumi Mar 4 2007, 06:53 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

That I don't doubt, but: Grunts. Don't. Get. Sidearms.

Why do you say this? I was under the impression that a handgun was standard issue for grunts.

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 4 2007, 06:53 PM

Now you're just getting into an even smaller fringe. Sure, maybe there are officers in the US army today who pack their own personal .50AE DEagles as a sidearm, but if there are more than a handful I'd be very, very surprised.

You're clutching at ever smaller straws Knasser.

And X-Kaliber, if you don't think a 25% premium is a big deal, then you can send some of your extraneous wealth my way; I take paypal.

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 4 2007, 07:09 PM

QUOTE (HullBreach)

I think alot of folks are trying to approach this with a 2007 mindset, and thats why what were suggesting seems absurd.

Once again, stop thinking 2007 and start thinking 2070.

Every major development or change in armaments in history was driven by a need.

Percussion primers replaced flashpan based wheel and flintlock weapons when a monk got pissed about missing ducks spooked by the pre-shot flash.

Cartridge based weapons came about due to frustration with how long muzzle loaders took to reload.

Machineguns were the response to the massed infantry tactics used at the time.

Submachineguns and launched grenades were developed in response to the trench warfare brought about by the development of the machinegun.

Assault rifles are the child of manuever warfare which came about after the obselescence of trench warfare. They filled soldiers needs for a more multi-role weapon, useful both at range and up close.

Heavy-Duty weapons (and I mean more than just pistols) are likely to come about on a battlefield where there are those that can weild them, to fill the need of a troop who needs to kill a bigger tougher enemy than has ever been dealt with before. The military and corporate use of para-critters alone justifies this, without even breaching the subjects of cyberneticially enhanced troops, troops wearing body armor, trolls, and even Drones as potential adversaries.

Posted by: knasser Mar 4 2007, 07:51 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel @ Mar 4 2007, 06:53 PM)

You're clutching at ever smaller straws Knasser.

How rude! I'm actually just commenting on each part of your argument as you race on looking for ground you can defend. Previous issues have not yet been resolved. When you say that this is an even smaller fringe, it's not a counter because I don't think anyone has accepted that you dismissed any of the previous "fringes."

You seem to be taking everything everyone says by this point as an argument against you. I came late into this thread about a page back pointing out that trolls wouldn't be able to use ordinary-size pistols, anyway. You immediately took it as a comment addressed to you, so don't blame me if ever since I've been locked into responding at every shot you take at my arguments.

To summarise what I see it as so far:

There will be approximately 60 million trolls in the world. If the same portion of trolls want guns as with humans, then that is a very large market. In fact, trolls probably buy slightly more guns per capita than humans, but this isn't critical to the point.
Trolls cannot use normal sized pistols, therefore manufacturers must already be catering to trolls with customised weapons, or else trolls do not use pistols.
Unlike in the present day, there may be a greater application for stopping power in 2070, what with the prevalence of body armour, cyber, trolls and infrantry often replaced with drones. This is a point in favour of producing demand for such weapons.
Further to the last point, urban environments are also much more heavily armed and armoured, meaning civillian use (which I see as the biggest market) may also want such weapons
Regardless of need, there is a prestige and status reason. Guns are pretty much the ultimate penis substitute.
There are no supply reasons why VHPs can't be distributed and no significant manufacturing reasons, either.

Given that VHPs are significantly more powerful and have no disadvantage (if you're a troll), the sole argument against them that I see is the inability to swap ammunition with non VHPs. I don't see this as sufficient because firstly, in military applications as Hyzmarca points out they can use rifle or machinegun ammo. That's assuming that carrying the extra ammo type would be too significant for the army to consider the VHPs and that privately owned VHPs wouldn't be used. But far more importantly than military applications (because of market size), I don't know what sort of scenarios your envisioning where Average Troll thinks to himself, "I'm not going to buy this gun because if I need to shoot more than thirty people, I might not be able to knick ammo from someone else's gun." They're not how I think people will actually think, though.

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 4 2007, 08:06 PM

I think you hit the nail on the head with that one Knasser!

The other point to be made here is that when your arming yourself for defense, you don't take 'just enough' you take the biggest baddest thing you can use effectively.

For me, in day to day life, this is a compact .45. For a Troll in 2070, this might very well be a cut-down assault rifle or a custom ultra-heavy pistol.

Why would a troll pack a standard heavy pistol with oversized grips when he can use a much more powerful weapon?

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 4 2007, 08:07 PM

QUOTE (knasser)

[*]Regardless of need, there is a prestige and status reason. Guns are pretty much the ultimate penis substitute.

Sweet, this makes me like a hentai tentacle monster!

Posted by: knasser Mar 4 2007, 08:15 PM

QUOTE (HullBreach @ Mar 4 2007, 08:07 PM)

QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 4 2007, 02:51 PM)

[*]Regardless of need, there is a prestige and status reason. Guns are pretty much the ultimate penis substitute.

Sweet, this makes me like a hentai tentacle monster!

EDIT: Clicks on link in your sig. Realise you really aren't kidding!

Posted by: Synner667 Mar 4 2007, 08:42 PM

Hmmm..
..There's VHPs in various films - Hellboy's pistol, for instance.

I'm sure I remember a Troll Pistol from my SR games [a big pistol, firing shotgun rounds]..
..But maybe that was something I put together for PC enjoyment !!

Synner667

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 4 2007, 09:00 PM

I'd like to point out that body armor/armored drones and big critters are separate issues that one relatively compact handheld firearm is not likely to solve even at very close range. For armored targets, you want high velocity projectiles with a small frontal area, while against trolls and such you want very heavy bullets that crush as large a hole as possible. The only way to get both is absolutely massive, extremely dense, hardened core bullets at high velocities -- basically large caliber magnum rifles -- and those just don't make sense for human-sized combatants out of what is still basically a handgun.

Right now, 7.62x51mm rifles are better weapons against armored targets than any production handgun, including monstrosities like the .460 and .500 S&W revolvers. If armor gets harder, the obvious counter is to tune up long arms -- not handguns, which are by their nature far less capable of dealing with armor. It's also not very likely to run into very heavily armored targets at extremely close quarters, so there's not much call for a particularly compact, powerful armor piercing weapon. So militaries will mostly keep going in the direction they're moving in now: high velocity ammunition with extremely hard and dense, probably subcaliber cores for all rifle-caliber weapons, and let handguns be crap against armor.

The one use I can think of for VHPs in a military is for units that may be forced to engage big critters (trolls etc.) in close quarters, and are big and strong enough themselves to handle handguns in the .440 Cor-Bon - .500 S&W range without trouble. This would allow them to carry both a long-range, accurate, potentially effective armor piercing weapon, like a battle rifle in 7.62x51mm or similar, and the VHP, and be capable of engaging a wide variety of targets in different conditions without having to carry two or more long guns.

For trolls in the military, I think the first thing they'd do is outfit M2HB HMGs with rifle stocks and grips and wield those as battle rifles. Should they be forced to engage in CQB, I suppose handguns or shortened carbines in hefty calibers would come in handy -- but I don't see those happening other than as custom pieces one at a time or in very small numbers unless some military actually had a whole lot of trolls, which is unlikely for most conventional national militaries.

All new handguns designs for trolls, if they came about, would most likely be driven solely by private demand, just all handguns beyond .45 ACP are in the real world.

[Edit].44 Remington Magnum, benchmark, rather large and deep holes, poor performance against any kind of armor:
240gr bullet at 1400fps with 21 grains of propellant from a 3lb gun = 15.9ft-lbs of recoil energy at 18.5fps.

.500 S&W, seriously big and seriously deep holes (has been successfully used for hunting elephants), will penetrate soft body armor ca. 2007 but largely useless against rigid body or vehicle armor:
440gr bullet at 1650fps with 42grs of propellant from a 4.5lb gun = 50.6ft-lbs of recoil energy at 26.9fps.

.338 Lapua Magnum, big and deep holes, will penetrate any body armor ca. 2007, can threaten any light AFVs with dedicated AP rounds:
250gr bullet at 2750fps with 95grs of propellant from a hypothetical 4.5lb VHP = 92.3 ft-lbs @ 36.3fps

.416 Weatherby Magnum, holes as big and deep as .500 S&W with solid projectiles, will penetrate armor at least as well as .338 Lapua:
400gr @ 2400fps w/ 115grs from a hypothetical 5lb VHP = 132ft-lbs @ 41.2fps

So to get good armor penetration along with serious wounding potential against troll-sized critters from a handgun, you'd be getting recoil around twice as hefty as on a .500 S&W revolver. To get wounding potential as good as the most powerful handgun calibers along with good armor penetration, you're looking at recoil close to three times as bad. Plus once you get to that point, your "handgun" is so large that any handling advantage in close quarters is negated anyway, so might as well go for a long range armor piercing rifle and a separate close range, big critter slaying weapon when necessary.[/Edit]

Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 4 2007, 10:28 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

So to get good armor penetration along with serious wounding potential against troll-sized critters from a handgun, you'd be getting recoil around twice as hefty as on a .500 S&W revolver. To get wounding potential as good as the most powerful handgun calibers along with good armor penetration, you're looking at recoil close to three times as bad. Plus once you get to that point, your "handgun" is so large that any handling advantage in close quarters is negated anyway, so might as well go for a long range armor piercing rifle and a separate close range, big critter slaying weapon when necessary.

Hmm, does that translate to treating VHP recoil as heavy weapons?

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 4 2007, 10:45 PM

If you intend for them to do as much damage as Sniper Rifles do in canon SR (either 3rd or 4th edition, I think), then absolutely yes, along with the damage dealing effects from Cannon Companion or something similar. To get that kind of ballistics from a compact handgun you need a ridiculously powerful cartridge, and that means absolutely punishing recoil.

If you just want to make them do about as much damage as a shotguns while making them very heavy and bulky for handguns, just double recoil is perhaps enough. As long as all the other potential balancing factors are there.

Posted by: nezumi Mar 4 2007, 10:47 PM

The problem is "heavy weapons recoil" is sort of silly anyway because of how recoil is calculated. If you're firing an SS weapon (which these pistols would likely be), you'd never suffer recoil anyway. Remember also that "heavy weapons recoil" only doubles uncompensated recoil, so if you have a single point of recoil compensation, you still don't suffer any ill-effects. The only point that it becomes a problem is if you're using the "sawed-off assault rifle" suggested earlier.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 4 2007, 11:20 PM

1) Don't allow recoil compensation on these guns. Problem solved.

2) In SR3, 12S Heavy Weapon without a gyro stabilization unit (and no, a cyberarm one doesn't count) = ouch. That's 6L Stun for every shot fired, and with double recoil you also need 2 successes on a TN 6 knockdown test not to fall on your ass. A 10S Heavy Weapon is just about bearable if you've got a very high Body, but beyond that it gets really harsh.

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 4 2007, 11:29 PM

Ok, I've already countered your arguments, but since you summarised your arguments, here's my summarised counters:

QUOTE

* There will be approximately 60 million trolls in the world. If the same portion of trolls want guns as with humans, then that is a very large market. In fact, trolls probably buy slightly more guns per capita than humans, but this isn't critical to the point.

Of those 60 million trolls (personally I think far fewer based on average lifespan, the decimation caused by VITAS and various civil strifes. At the very least 2/3 of them, just as at least 3/4 of the worlds population today are - are going to be more concerned about where they're getting fresh water and the days meal from than whether they can get a gun customed to their fist. Please, do not think the whole 6th world is anything like New Seattle, so of the 20 million left in the 'developed' world, given trolls high infant mortality, you probably have at best 12 million adults, and what proportion are going to show an interest in such a weapon? Going by todays sales figures for todays 'Heavy Pistols', not many. That gives you a tiny niche private market. The military market you can pretty much rule out through lack of sidearm usage by all but spec ops and officers - trolls anywhere will find a glass ceiling in both places. The security and police market are pretty similar, although greater use of pistols could see some argument but there are definate standardisation issues, especially where security and police firms do not get through anything like as much ammo or ammo varieties as the military.

QUOTE

* Trolls cannot use normal sized pistols, therefore manufacturers must already be catering to trolls with customised weapons, or else trolls do not use pistols.

They do, at a 25% premium. That's a big premium, and demonstrates perfectly the lack of demand from trolls that exists. If demand was as large as you claim, they would be no need for a premium.

QUOTE

* Unlike in the present day, there may be a greater application for stopping power in 2070, what with the prevalence of body armour, cyber, trolls and infrantry often replaced with drones. This is a point in favour of producing demand for such weapons.

Where units are expecting to engage such opponents, those units are going to be overwhelmingly human, and thus kitted out with appropriate weapons usable by humans, such as Assault Rifles, Light Machine Guns, and even Light or Medium Rocket Launchers. The prevalence of the underbarreled grenade launcher coming as standard on the three major assault rifles, the Alpha, M22 and AK97 says as much.

QUOTE

* Further to the last point, urban environments are also much more heavily armed and armoured, meaning civillian use (which I see as the biggest market) may also want such weapons

This is my point though, the civilian troll population is exactly going to be the biggest market for such weapons, but at the same time, the civilian market is also the smallest market for firearms, it's pocket change compared to military and security demand. So, by making a weapon purely for civilians you are targeting a fringe audience, which fair enough for humans is a decent sized market, hense the array of Light and Hold Out pistols available. It's still a fringe market though for what the arms dealers churn out most. Targetting civilian trolls is as I say, targetting the 1% fringe of an already fringe market.

QUOTE

* Regardless of need, there is a prestige and status reason. Guns are pretty much the ultimate penis substitute.

Since when does a troll need a penis substitute?

Seriously though, that's no exactly going to shape greater demand, it just says a lot about the troll buying it.

QUOTE

* There are no supply reasons why VHPs can't be distributed and no significant manufacturing reasons, either.

Sure, they could shift the production line to make it, it's all computerised anyway - but you need demand to justify supply.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Mar 5 2007, 12:47 AM

QUOTE (HullBreach)

QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 4 2007, 02:51 PM)

[*]Regardless of need, there is a prestige and status reason. Guns are pretty much the ultimate penis substitute.

Sweet, this makes me like a hentai tentacle monster!

[TENTACLE MONSTER MENACING ROCK RIFF]
DURNERDURNERDURNERNERRR, DURNERDURNERDURNERNERR!
[/TENTACLE MONSTER MENACING ROCK RIFF]

Darkest Angel:

Consider the following possibility.

Out of all the trolls in the world one of them manages, in spite of many obstacles, to become a successful businessman.

Being an aggressive and self reliant type, and having dealt with a lot of extreme harassment in his time, he decides to make a company which specalizes in selling defensive "handguns" in .50 BMG to trolls. He has enough capital to start this company and, even if business isn't great, he keeps running it because of idealistic reasons.

Now are you happy?

Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 5 2007, 12:51 AM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

Where are you getting your facts from?

High infant mortality rate?

You have changed 60 million to 12 million with a wave of your hand.

Even with glass ceilings, a lot of security, bodyguards, which do carry sidearms.

You ignore the fact that trolls band together, for safety, and are more likely to get the biggest damn pistol that they can. The VHP would be concealable on a troll, would take out any predator in the barrens, armored Humanis goon, etc..

As for the military, well, what about the troll kingdom's military? I could see them all armed with VHPs, if nothing else, just to torque off the little people.

Posted by: knasser Mar 5 2007, 07:31 AM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

Ok, I've already countered your arguments

Neither I, nor several other posters here agree with that. To me, the points you make translate into a somewhat higher cost and availability (but not exorbitant custom costs). I don't see them as strong enough to mean you can't buy or order a VHP and ammunition.

You think world population of 6billion is too low. It's more than that today and left unchecked would be massively more by 2070. I picked 6bn to take account of VITAS and the degree of unrest. People can argue that it's higher, but not lower, I think. You keep making generalised statements and whitling away these numbers to nothing. And you take small things, like a 25% cost increase, and see them as major disincentives. If I pay £500 for a gun, I think I might pay £625 for one that suits me better. It's the same magnitude.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 5 2007, 07:33 AM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

Speaking on this and on tentacle rape hentai monsters... anyone ever seen Wicked City? Now THAT is a VHP. I'd take it or one of the revolvers from Trigun any day.

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 5 2007, 01:44 PM

QUOTE (X-Kalibur)

Speaking on this and on tentacle rape hentai monsters... anyone ever seen Wicked City? Now THAT is a VHP. I'd take it or one of the revolvers from Trigun any day.

Check out the 'Earth Shaker' revolver Leon uses in the original Bubblegum Crisis. Thing holds three .60cal rounds and IIRC weighs like 6.5lbs unloaded.

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 5 2007, 05:39 PM

QUOTE

Where are you getting your facts from?

High infant mortality rate?

You have changed 60 million to 12 million with a wave of your hand.

Well you seem to have forgotten that there is a planet outside of North America and Europe. Today, 3/4 of the worlds population lives in the third world, I can't see that changing much in SR, it seems pretty reasonable to me to wipe at least 60% of the total population off having any interest in a weapon best suited to urban personal protection. 12 million is a conservative estimate.

High infant mortality rate is from the BBB, and is predominantly down to the majority of trolls living below the poverty line in slums. Their 45 year life expectation speaks volumes ney?

QUOTE

Even with glass ceilings, a lot of security, bodyguards, which do carry sidearms.

True, but they're pretty much invariably subsidiaries of major corps and will carry weapons made by said parent corp. You seem to be in agreement that a VHP would be a special thing brought in on a tiny scale for the public market - corps don't buy into those kinds of things.

QUOTE

You ignore the fact that trolls band together, for safety, and are more likely to get the biggest damn pistol that they can. The VHP would be concealable on a troll, would take out any predator in the barrens, armored Humanis goon, etc..

No, they're most likely to get the biggest damn gun they can get away with, that's going to be shotgun, sawn off or otherwise.

QUOTE

As for the military, well, what about the troll kingdom's military? I could see them all armed with VHPs, if nothing else, just to torque off the little

Not really, I see them armed with Assault Rifles and LMGs like everyone elses army. Pistols suck on the battlefield, end of.

Someone already said they regarded the Super Warhawk and Hatamoto as VHPs anyway, in which case there are two such niche market weapons available. Given that each weapon in the books cover a multitude of copies and variants, you have your niche weapons. I voted that they were already covered and see no reason to introduce anything 'extra'. Personally, I've never seen a player take either, because of their limited ammo capacity and SS nature - the examples that have been put forward as contemporary VHPs suffer similar problems. To me it seems you're just out for a better pistol for your character, if your GM is ok with that then fine. NIMG. I'm going to leave it with that, because this is going round and round and round.

Posted by: knasser Mar 5 2007, 06:32 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

I'm going to leave it with that, because this is going round and round and round.

Agreed as far as I'm concerned. I'll leave it to any others who want to discuss remaining points as I don't know much about firearms themselves (guess that makes me the schoolgirl in this tentacle monster analogy. :-/ ).

You (Darkest Angel) may not agree with me, but I'm satisfied you understand what I'm saying and that's as much as I ever ask for. For my part, I understand what you're saying but am not convinced it's sufficient for VHPs not to exist. I believe your points would translate into mere rises in cost and availability rating (but not hugely so).

I'm done, here.

Cheers,

-K.

Posted by: hyzmarca Mar 5 2007, 06:37 PM

A newborn troll has a body of 6, which is better than most adult human athletes.
With six times the disease resistance of newborn humans and elves, infant mortality rates for trolls should be 1/6 that of humans and elves in similar conditions, 1/3 that of dwarves, and 2/3 that of orks. All things being equal, troll children have the greatest potential survivability in adverse conditions.
Heck, a troll kid is highly likely to survive being mauled by a lion, stabbed with a combat knife, or shot point-blank with a light pistol.
That is one of the reasons that trolls are so scary. They can survive in conditions that would devastate a human population.

Of course, there will be infant mortality amongst trolls, even in posh affluent neighborhoods. The laws of probability demand it. Even so, the per-capita troll infant mortality rate in a given area will be far lower than the per-capita infant mortality rate of any other race in that area.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Mar 5 2007, 07:04 PM

While I might disagree with some of your exact numbers, I completely agree with your overall point, hyzmarca.

Posted by: Garrowolf Mar 5 2007, 10:11 PM

Ok it seems like we are talking about different things here. We already have heavy pistol sizes for humans. I was thinking of a VHP as using rifle rounds and not pistol rounds. The guns would be very solid and heavy. They might be more uncommon but the rifle rounds would be normally available. Only a trolls and heavily cybered would be able to fire something with that kind of recoil.

Posted by: Synner667 Mar 11 2007, 03:27 AM

QUOTE (HullBreach)

QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Mar 5 2007, 02:33 AM)

Speaking on this and on tentacle rape hentai monsters... anyone ever seen Wicked City? Now THAT is a VHP. I'd take it or one of the revolvers from Trigun any day.

Check out the 'Earth Shaker' revolver Leon uses in the original Bubblegum Crisis. Thing holds three .60cal rounds and IIRC weighs like 6.5lbs unloaded.

Hi,

Cyberpunk 2020 mentions a .666 calibre pistol in one of their supplements !!

I think the Earthshaker pistol is mentioned in one of the Bubblegum Crisis RPG books, and is chambered for rifle rounds.

Peter

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Mar 11 2007, 04:16 AM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Of course, there will be infant mortality amongst trolls, even in posh affluent neighborhoods. The laws of probability demand it. Even so, the per-capita troll infant mortality rate in a given area will be far lower than the per-capita infant mortality rate of any other race in that area.

Depending on the parents, especially if they're human parents in posh affluent neighborhoods, then yeah, I can see higher per capita troll infant mortality rates.

Of course, I may be wrong and troll babies aren't born from human parents but instead they goblinize during puberty. But if the former can happen, then I can see a rash of SIDS happening for the troll babies for some reason...

Posted by: Synner667 Mar 11 2007, 04:21 AM

QUOTE (PBTHHHHT)

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Mar 5 2007, 01:37 PM)

Depending on the parents, especially if they're human parents in posh affluent neighborhoods, then yeah, I can see higher per capita troll infant mortality rates.

In a similar vein..

There was a large number of 'miscarriages' in the upperclass families in SR England - Apparently.

Peter

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Mar 11 2007, 04:54 AM

back to topic, for VHP... how about the good old contender line?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_Center_Arms
Granted it's not a semi automatic pistol.

Posted by: Cray74 Mar 11 2007, 12:13 PM

QUOTE (KarmaInferno)

Why am I suddenly reminded about the weapons rules for Underground?

The ones that feature handguns in the 50mm range?

-karma

I think the pistols topped out at 30mm, but you could get 50mm rifles, with speciality 75mm options.

Posted by: hyzmarca Mar 11 2007, 07:40 PM

Trolls are usually born from troll parents and usually goblinize from human parents. Sometimes trolls goblinize from troll parents but the are never born from human parents, which should be a relief to human women everywhere. I don't believe that the human pelivs is wide enough to make that work.

Convenient late-term miscarriages and suspicious SIDs cases are generally reserved for Elves and Dwarves.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Mar 11 2007, 11:53 PM

that's what I thought. Ah well, SIDS then for elves and dwarves... and well, the kids who goblinize, I guess they're still learning their new bodies so they might 'accidently' fall down those stairs and break their necks...

Posted by: Garrowolf Mar 12 2007, 12:51 AM

I thought that goblinization occurred either at birth or at puberty. Your not going to have them pop up at 4. (though that might be funny )

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Mar 12 2007, 01:59 AM

oh no, I meant when they hit puberty too. you know, take the kid out for fishing and such and they happen to drown in 3' of water for some reason... yikes. ok, enough of these bad evil thoughts about evil parents who can't handle their children being metas.

Posted by: sunnyside Mar 12 2007, 05:23 PM

Ok again. In, to my knowledge, each SR system the biggest handgun does MORE damage than a full length rifle. MORE not LESS.

Therefore SR handgun manufacturers already went past "chambering rifle rounds in handguns" and kept going. In fact, since in each SR chopping down a rifle to SMG length reduces the damage code to that of an SMG (go on look up the AK carbine), it means that whatever they have in handguns now has to squint to see back to the time of only having rifle rounds in those chambers. Similarly the biggest handguns do more damage than the biggest shotguns reduced to handgun lengths (At least in SR3 in the cannon companion).

If you want something for trolls/sammies let them have a shotgun that's sawed down to only a 14 inch barrel. To my knowledge in real life that still gives you nearly all the power from the shotgun. Going much shorter starts eating in to velocity. But a troll should be able to hide a ~16 inch weapon on their person. Just remember to reduce the range.

And don't forget to add house rules for the recoil those "regular" heavies should have. SR lets a toddler fire a ten gauge without a penalty because it makes it easy on book keeping. But if your players want bigger guns make them realize the ones they have aren't .22's. Or even .50's probably.

EDIT: Just remembered when my little brother first fired a shotgun. He didn't snug it up sufficiantly against his shoulder and didn't spread out his legs right. The results were hilarious!

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 12 2007, 08:03 PM

SR4 Ares Predator 15 round detachable magazine, 5P damage -1AP, Semi automatic.
SR4 Super Warhawk 6 round Cylinder, 6P damage -2AP, Single Shot, may not mount a silencer.
SR4 Ruger 100 5 round internal magazine, 7P Damage -1AP, Semi-automatic
SR4 Remington 990 8 round internal magazine, 7P Damage -1AP (for slugs), Semi automatic.
SR4 Ares Alpha 32 Round detachable magazine, 6P damage -1AP integral 2 points of recoil compensation, Semi automatic, burst fire, and full auto capable.

Where was the Heavy Pistol out performing the rifle again? Nowhere.

Posted by: nezumi Mar 12 2007, 11:55 PM

3rd edition:

Ares Pred 9M
Super Warhawk 10M
AK-97 8M
HK227 (SMG) 7M
Remington 750 7S

So a predator has a bigger round than an AK or an SMG, but presumably around the same size or smaller than a hunting rifle.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 13 2007, 08:11 AM

QUOTE (nezumi)

So a predator has a bigger round than an AK or an SMG, but presumably around the same size or smaller than a hunting rifle.

That kind of thinking breaks down when you look at the HMGs, if not sooner. The "cool factor" of the guns and the game designers' notions of game balance have at least as much to do with the damage codes as the supposed actual ballistics.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 13 2007, 05:07 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

QUOTE (nezumi)

So a predator has a bigger round than an AK or an SMG, but presumably around the same size or smaller than a hunting rifle.

There's also no way in hell a Predator is packing 15 rifle rounds in a single magazine.

Posted by: nezumi Mar 13 2007, 07:01 PM

Maybe it's a very long magazine.

Perhaps bullets in shadowrun, in addition to being affected by bullet weight, amount of powder and barrel length, are affected by another factor; coolness. Since a big pistol is inherently cooler than an assault rifle, the bullet does more damage. Since a REALLY big pistols is even cooler still, it should do even MORE damage!

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 13 2007, 07:05 PM

QUOTE

We call this piece the Fecalator, because when you point it at your target, he'll shit himself

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 13 2007, 07:33 PM

QUOTE (nezumi)

Maybe it's a very long magazine.

It would be. The absolute minimum length (in other words, size lengthwise on the weapon) of a 7.62x51mm magazine would be ~74mm, meaning the pistol grip with that magazine inside would be at least ~85mm. That would have be a "Troll Pistol", since nobody else could possibly get their hand properly on the grip.

Of course, to do slightly more damage to humans than an assault rifle doesn't require a "rifle round". Considering unarmored targets only, if a non-deforming 5.56x45mm from an AR is 8M, .45 ACP FMJ from a handgun could possibly be argued to be 9M (although I believe I've got both at 8M in my lists, and Raygun's got 5.56x45mm from a full length rifle at 9M with .45 ACP from a handgun at 8M). The real issue is the armor penetration, which in SR3 canon is just ridiculous.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Mar 13 2007, 11:08 PM

I thought it was pretty clear that pistols in SR3 had their crazy damage codes just to "balance" the game and also so that you could act like a hero in a cop show and kill everyone by running around with a pistol.

It's just influences from movies and television. It's the logic by which James Bond can sprint through a firefight between a special forces platoon and jumpsuited construction workers and kill half the construction workers with his walther PPK which makes you die in one hit no matter what. At the same time all the other combatants, with their M3A1s and Sterling SMGs, are unable to hit anything no matter how much automatic fire they use.

Posted by: sunnyside Mar 14 2007, 05:39 PM

Well I'm sure much of their reasoning for the damage codes was simple game balance and the general game/novel writers philosphy of

fun > realism

And that's why they wisely never give out, to my knowledge, a single piece of solid information linking the weapons to anything in reality (a cartridge, gauge, anything).

However once people start talking about changing things and adding in reality we sort of have to open up that can of worms.

And yes I know some people made nice websites that attempt to correlate reality to damage codes. However they typically do this simply be assuming that the biggest standard cartridge around today is the heaviest heavy pistol round and go from there. When they try to do this they invariably smack into the fallacy of this idea when they try to describe things like SMGs. If a 45ACP does 8M or 9M why then would you not be able to get a 9M SMG? And regardless you have to concede that a round from an AK47 does much more tissue damage from tumbling and debriding than a .45 and certainly has much much more penetration.

My take on it is that to have reality match the mechanics SR heavy pistols have to be chambered with a new type of cartridge. For example in a preditor perhapse you have a cartridge filled with high explosive instead of gunpowder, and a bullet that has a diamater small enough to fit 15 into a magazine but is notably longer than todays bullets. Therefore these weapons get their impressive penetration from the resulting high sectional density and velocity while damage could be accomplished by the bullets being highly unstable in the body and tumbling as rifle rounds do. Still that adds up to a lot of kick.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 14 2007, 06:13 PM

QUOTE (sunnyside)

However they typically do this simply be assuming that the biggest standard cartridge around today is the heaviest heavy pistol round and go from there.

I don't get it. Do you mean "they" take a 10M Ruger Super Warhawk and assume that is equivalent to a .500 S&W Magnum? Or, by "standard cartridge", do you mean "standard military handgun caliber"? Either way, that isn't even close to describing how Raygun's done it, or how I did it, or how anybody else I've ever seen do it has done it.

QUOTE (sunnyside)

If a 45ACP does 8M or 9M why then would you not be able to get a 9M SMG?

If you go the distance of deciding that a .45 ACP out of a 10" barrel means a damage code of 9M, you are probably going to include SMGs that do 9M. Raygun did, and so did I. If you don't, the whole "equivalency" thing, either to real world ballistics or completely fictional make-belief ballistics, is utterly, utterly pointless.

QUOTE (sunnyside)

And regardless you have to concede that a round from an AK47 does much more tissue damage from tumbling and debriding than a .45 [...]

Strictly true: the tumbling of most 7.62x39mm FMJs will make more of an addition to the tissue damage caused than the tumbling on most .45 ACP FMJs, because the latter doesn't happen. The total wound surface area to a human would be about equal, however -- the 7.62x39mm loses out 31.5% point forward and gains 63.6% on the brief tracts where it travels sideways, averaging about the same area. Total wound volume on muscle tissues with FMJs would be larger with the .45 ACP.

QUOTE (sunnyside)

My take on it is that to have reality match the mechanics SR heavy pistols have to be chambered with a new type of cartridge.

That's silly. You said above you believe the damage codes are based only on the game designers' ideas of fun and have nothing to do with realism. Why on earth would you then try to come up with a purely reality-based logic for the damage codes as they are?

QUOTE (sunnyside)

For example in a preditor perhapse you have a cartridge filled with high explosive instead of gunpowder [...]

I thought you were talking about reality here?

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 14 2007, 06:19 PM

Maybe they use Self Forging Fragmentation rounds

Posted by: sunnyside Mar 14 2007, 07:34 PM

QUOTE

Either way, that isn't even close to describing how Raygun's done it, or how I did it, or how anybody else I've ever seen do it has done it.

Well then how did you decide what a 45 should do in SR?

QUOTE

Exactly my point. When trying to transfer the SR damage codes to reality. You either have to decide that the base book SMG are fireing awfully light cartirdges and give your players heavier ones. Or you have to decide that the heavy pistols are heavier than cartridges you'll find in SMGs.

Further if a .45 does 8M as in Rayguns case you then have to give a .454 Casull penetration that's going to match up with calibres you don't see until you reach sniper rifles and is starting to close in on Anti-Matériel rifles. When somebody introduces an even bigger handgun load in a couple years I guess the gap will be filled.

QUOTE

I thought you were talking about reality here?

Well, a reality where you legs can be made of metal and look like a velocirapters and you can hide a gun in your eyeball. At that point using a different propellant doens't seem so bizzar. And there is no reason to think that people would stop innovating cartridges in the next fifty years.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Switching gears to game balance. I'm betting the idea got brought up somewhere in developments. However there are a number of big issues.

For one it'd require a extra rules. For another you have to decide where does it stop. So you have a 10M gun everyone can use (12M with Raygun). Then you have a gun that can be used only with recoil compensation, cyberware enchanced strength, or by a troll. But then they'll of course want a gun that only works when you have all three plus the extra toys in the last sourcebook at which point you have an Anti-Matériel rifle in your pants. Then when you try and balance things you have to decide if the "regular" heavy pistols suck, or if the cybertroll pistols vaporize people. And the end result is people will strongly lean toward all the superguns and character variety will go down.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 14 2007, 08:17 PM

QUOTE (sunnyside)

Well then how did you decide what a 45 should do in SR?

Several ways. First, you can look at the whole range of damage codes and the genral types of firearms that they correspond to in SR, eliminating the anomalies (e.g. 7S LMGs, 10S HMGs) and reinforcing the apparently solid ones (e.g. 6L as the lightest of the full frame handguns, 7S - 9S as a range for light to medium sporting rifles). Then you can do the math of how those damage codes translate to injuries caused to average unarmored humans as well as tougher targets like trolls, armored humans and even vehicles, and compare those figures with what the realistic (as far as the game mechanics allow) average injuries with such weapons would be.

The codes can then be fine tuned for game balance, scalability, feel, fun, whatever. After that you can flesh out the whole thing.

It's far from an exact science, and can be hugely affected by what your game world looks like otherwise and what other house rules you're using, among other things. For example, Raygun's damage codes for the bigger handgun calibers and the larger rifle magnums are quite different from mine simply because we use a different mechanic for varying the armor penetration potential of firearms; he uses x0.75/x0.5/x0.25/ignore while I use straight +/- numbers (largely similar to what you get in SR4), allowing me to play around with the Powers as opposed to Penetration ratings a bit more at the cost of slightly more complexity. Some people also have completely different ideas on what kinds of real world injuries the different stages of damage in the rules represent, which lead to complete shifts of scale.

Picking one or two canon damage code,s smacking a real world caliber/firearm equivalency on those, and building the whole thing around just them won't work. There needs to be a lot more going on if the numbers are to make sense.

QUOTE (sunnyside)

You either have to decide that the base book SMG are fireing awfully light cartirdges and give your players heavier ones.

Not awfully light. The majority of SMGs in the world today fire 9x19mm. Handily, that's a 7M handgun caliber with both Raygun's and my rules, or 8M from longer barrels. SMGs in more powerful calibers are a minority, which can be handled with slightly increased Power and equally decreased recoil compensation, etc.

QUOTE (sunnyside)

Further if a .45 does 8M as in Rayguns case you then have to give a .454 Casull penetration that's going to match up with calibres you don't see until you reach sniper rifles and is starting to close in on Anti-Matériel rifles.

Nope, because nobody in his right mind will be doing the reality-equivalency stuff and then not give firearms some other measure of the penetration ability than their Power. For example, Raygun's 10S hard lead FN .454 Casull rounds effectively penetrate 10 points of armor, while his 5.56x45mm FMJs, though only doing 9M damage from assault rifles, penetrate 12, and .300 Winchester Magnum FMJs at 12S penetrate 16 points. The difference is even more radical with my rules, with .454 Casull being easily miffed by 7 points of body armor, which rifle magnums simply ignore.

QUOTE (sunnyside)

At that point using a different propellant doens't seem so bizzar.

Indeed not, propellant technology may well advance -- not that that has anything at all to do with the differences in the ballistics of rifles and handguns. But high explosives aren't propellants. Discharge would simply destroy the bullet and/or the weapon. Internal ballistics would be utterly fucked. Weapon design would have to be approached a whole different way, which obviously hasn't happened in SR -- generally speaking guns look, feel, and act the same way they do now.

QUOTE (sunnyside)

And the end result is people will strongly lean toward all the superguns and character variety will go down.

Not my experience at all. Where nearly everybody in canon SR has a Heavy Pistol I actually saw several different kinds of revolvers from .357 Magnum through to .500 S&W be used, pistols from .32 hold-outs through 9x19mms, .40 S&Ws, and .45 ACPs to 10mm Autos, and machine pistols at least in 9x19mm on several occasions. None has stood out as being best at everything, all have their ups and downs. In our last game, style was a major factor in selecting guns.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 14 2007, 08:23 PM

Thats why I loved Fields of Fire, it had artwork for all the guns listed so you could picked based on style or utility. The shadowtalk was great in it as well, talking about hunting rabbits with explosive rounds in a light pistol.

Also, I would like to say that I think the title of this thread is misleading. In the sense of "is the VHP necessary". No, of course it isn't. Neither is the S&W 500 today. Doesn't mean there won't still be a sizeable niche for us gun enthusiasts.

<edit>
SPEAKING of Fields of Fire... here is a fun excerpt from the Street Samurai Catalogue.

QUOTE

How can the best heavy pistol in the world work even better? That's the question Ares Arms asked their R&D Department, and the Predator II is their answer. Redesigned to fire state-of-the-art Firepower 12mm heavy pistol ammunition, the Predator now packs a mighty punch. Combine it with the new 15-shot clip and optional Ares Smartgun Link (not included), and you've got a new contender for man's best friend.

bold emphasis mine.

Posted by: sunnyside Mar 14 2007, 09:26 PM

15+1 in 12mm? Can you physically do that with even a double stack without having a ridiculously long clip?

Anyway are you guessing then that 9M would correspon to something like a .480 Ruger?

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 14 2007, 09:47 PM

It's only about 12% more length/depth (and ~5% more width) than a .45 ACP double stack 14-round magazine. Not quite into ridiculous territory yet, I would think.

I doubt anyone is going to seriously suggest an equivalency like 9M = .480 Ruger.

Posted by: sunnyside Mar 15 2007, 01:12 AM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

give firearms some other measure of the penetration ability than their Power. For example, Raygun's 10S hard lead FN .454 Casull rounds effectively penetrate 10 points of armor, while his 5.56x45mm FMJs, though only doing 9M damage from assault rifles, penetrate 12, and .300 Winchester Magnum FMJs at 12S penetrate 16 points. The difference is even more radical with my rules, with .454 Casull being easily miffed by 7 points of body armor, which rifle magnums simply ignore.

In our last game, style was a major factor in selecting guns.

Ok hold on these are getting to long. So I'm only replying to a chunk.

First off, I don't really know where your stuff is. But I'm not sure I follow the armor penetration stuff under SR3. Power IS penetration. That's what the number does. In really low numbers it represent an attack not able to really power through muscle and bone. However once you get up into the higher numbers it's basically a measure of how well it penetrates armor. I guess there are things like the flechette rules. But as a general rule if you have a power 9 weapon and it ignores 3 points of armor it's almost exactly the same as a power 12 weapon.

And I'll give your players credit for style. But unless you introduced a slew of special rules I just don't see most players saying "I'd rather do 6M instead of 10M today." And that would be reasonably in character. You don't see cops going out with .22's.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 15 2007, 01:54 AM

Right now, my house rules for SR3 only exist on paper in some dusty corner of this room and on a disembodied HD in the closet. The way they work is that every damage code also have a Penetration rating in addition to Power and Damage Code. For attack resolution, you first add together the Penetration and the Armor rating of the target, and that gives you the effective Armor against the attack, with negative values meaning zero armor.

For example, a 9M/+3 relatively pistol FMJ vs. a 5/3 armored vest gives you an effective armor rating of 8, so the damage goes down to 2M. In addition, my rules give the defender an additional dice on the damage resistance test for every point by which non-hardened body armor would have reduced the Power below two, so in the above case the defender would get a bonus dice to resist the 2M.

Raygun's rules deal with the same issue by having smaller than 1 multipliers for weapons that penetrate armor better. The effect is pretty much the same: the highest Power rating no longer necessarily corresponds to the highest amount of armor penetration, and even a very low Power can lead to lots and lots of penetration. As an example, I had a 5.6mm flechette (APFSDS) round for a special purpose assault rifle, similar to FN ACR. The Damage Code for that is, IIRC, 9L/-6 or 9L/-7, allowing it to ignore any soft body armor and going through most hard body armor as well, but the resulting damage to people is pretty crappy.

QUOTE (sunnyside)

But as a general rule if you have a power 9 weapon and it ignores 3 points of armor it's almost exactly the same as a power 12 weapon.

Only if every character in combat wears armor, there are no hit location rules or rules for bypassing armor, and average armor ratings are so high that they are never dropped below zero by the armor reduction effect. Needless to say, none of these hold true in my games.

QUOTE (sunnyside)

But unless you introduced a slew of special rules I just don't see most players saying "I'd rather do 6M instead of 10M today."

I have introduced several additional rules, but none of those are anywhere near as much work on the GM as coming up with a whole new array of firearms, ammo, armor, etc.

QUOTE (sunnyside)

You don't see cops going out with .22's.

Right. I don't remember a single .22 being acquired by PCs in my games. But when you're looking at a potential difference of, say, 7M/+1 vs. 9M/+2, suddenly things like concealability, magazine capacity, ease of sound suppression, ammo commonality, etc. start looking pretty important. And should those things largely balance out overall, it often comes down to style.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 15 2007, 03:55 AM

I'll take my Savalette Guardian in chrome please. Thank you very much.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Mar 15 2007, 11:20 AM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

Didn't the old G11 rifle concept use an RDX-based propellant?

-karma

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 15 2007, 11:54 AM

I couldn't find anything reliable on that, but there sure are plenty of rumors about it.

Either way, the propellant itself is still definitely a low explosive. It does not detonate inside the weapon. Although the speed at which it burns increases under pressure, modern propellants are designed such that the pressures inside the gun remain as stable as possible throughout a firing, so as to maximize the acceleration of the bullet while minimizing peak pressure, among other things.

By comparison, a straight RDX "propellant" (or, as I'd prefer to call it, gun-unmaker) set off by a primer would release all its energy on pressure (largely in the form of a shockwave) and heat in ~0.0000015 - 0.000006 seconds by burning an order of magnitude faster than any actual propellant. The bullet would barely have had time to flinch and already the pressure in the chamber would be measured in hundreds of thousands or millions of psi. The gun would fail catastrophically, with the bolt being shot right out of the weapon and the barrel and the receiver being blown apart. The bullet would be plastered inside the barrel.

Posted by: sunnyside Mar 15 2007, 03:15 PM

Yeah the difficulties of using a high explosive would make it a real pain. Still I find it hard to believe that a low explosive better than gunpowder won't come up. At least something with higher energy density alowing for longer rounds.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 15 2007, 03:24 PM

QUOTE (sunnyside)

Still I find it hard to believe that a low explosive better than gunpowder won't come up.

Something has, over 150 years ago.

They're being constantly improved to improve efficiency in different kinds of firearms, increase stability, etc.

But it makes absolutely no difference what kinds of monster propellants we can come up with. Just about anything those could do, we can already do by simply using more of a faster burning propellant. Yet guns like that just don't see much use, and it isn't because the cartridges are too big.

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 15 2007, 05:15 PM

QUOTE (sunnyside)

There has been some very successful experimentation with so-called 'gas guns' that use either compressed gaseous propellants or atomized ones (thing fuel-injection) which are precisely dosed into a chamber behind a projectile.

What's particularly cool regarding the potential of such a weapon is the abillity to dial in a velocity almost on the fly. Combine this with a fairly smart FCS computer, and you've got a pretty nasty little packadge.

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 15 2007, 05:29 PM

QUOTE (HullBreach @ Mar 15 2007, 06:15 PM)

QUOTE (sunnyside @ Mar 15 2007, 10:15 AM)

Which is great... until the batteries go flat. There's a reason the AK is as popular today as it was 60 years ago. Simplicity. Even modern assault rifles are remarkably similar to their counterparts invented in WW2, because once they begin to get complicated, they become unreliable when they're dropped, thrown about, covered in mud, and filled with rain and river water on the battlefield. Unreliability in combat sucks for firearms.

There's also the small matter of not having to provide every grunt with a degree in electronic and chemical engineering just to shoot people.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Mar 15 2007, 05:55 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

There's also the small matter of not having to provide every grunt with a degree in electronic and chemical engineering just to shoot people.

I mean really, if we only gave guns to smart people we'd never get our murder on. What fun would that be?

Posted by: HullBreach Mar 15 2007, 06:05 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)

These are both easily solved with tech already in development and testing. While I was in (nearly 5 years ago) we tested a set of knee braces that plugged into our radio battery. Walking continuously recharged the battery. There are also boot inserts that use the pressure of each step to generate power using pizio(sp) electrical principles.

As for the degree, its completely unecessary as the tech here is virtually identical to that of an internal combustion engine. Drive past a Marine barracks on a saturday and you'll likely see at least 2-3 vehicles half torn apart with guys working on them.

The weapons we use now require a great deal of knowledge regarding the gas-operation systems and some more esoteric knowledge like how to head-space a machinegun or properly sight in weapon optics.

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 15 2007, 07:19 PM

Doesn't really change the fact that complicated stuff breaks more often. Nor does complexity lend itself to being lightweight and manouverable. Sure attaching chargers to everyones knees might get round the battery problem, but again, it's generally pretty cumbersome. I know a few troops in the British Army who dislike wearing armour in the field (ie not in urban patrols or at checkpoints etc not far from base/vehicles), precisely because it's heavy and cumbersome, start throwing chargers and shit at them and they'd just leave it back at base in favour of more ammo and rations.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Mar 15 2007, 09:07 PM

QUOTE (Darkest Angel @ Mar 15 2007, 05:29 PM)

Which is great... until the batteries go flat.

How is this different than running out of ammunition?

Likewise, plenty of regular gear that soldiers carry has batteries. Nightvision, radios, flashlights, etc.

How much more complicated would the new weapon be than an AK's gas-operated mechanism? I can't see it being THAT much more complex.

You'd need a tank to hold the gas propellant, a metering system to inject a set amount of gas into the chamber, and means of detonating the gas. Ideally the gas would use some non-thermal means of detonation (chemical reaction?) and be temperature tolerant so cook-off would not be an issue. Or perhaps require high pressure like a piston.

Heck, the system can be almost entirely mechanical. It's really just a modified internal combustion engine cylinder, after all. Cars had them way before anyone invented electronics.

As long as it's reliable and the costs are kept down I don't see a problem with usability.

-karma

Posted by: Botch Mar 16 2007, 02:27 PM

Long time no see, to you older members.

BFTGs, he he.

From memory I think there's quite a good thread kicking about here with all the real world physics for VHP (pah, BFTG!)

Its not just the strength of the firer's arm its also the mass.

Give trolls their BFG!!!!