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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Ares Alpha
Posted by: Tomothy Mar 1 2007, 10:05 AM
Can you install a Gas Vent System in an Ares Alpha and still benefit from it's "special chamber design"?
Posted by: Thanee Mar 1 2007, 10:45 AM
Yes.
Bye
Thanee
Posted by: Naysayer Mar 1 2007, 12:40 PM
You can?
As in, they stack?
Sez who?
"Nay!", sez I!
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 1 2007, 01:07 PM
From a realism standpoint, yes. The chamber is the part of the gun where the ammunition being fired is contained. The gas venting systems as described by the book are what us gun-nuts commonly refer to as muzzle brakes, which sit on the buisiness end of the barrel.
These direct some of the escaping gasses up and to the sides of the weapons muzzle to reduce the thrust they normally generate, reducing the felt recoil of the weapon.
As for the chamber design reducing recoil, I think that may have been a bit of a misstatement on the writers part. All a chamber does is provide a pressure resistant vessel for the detonation of the propellant. There's not anything you can really do to it to reduce recoil.
On the other hand, the action of the weapon can be, and is commonly, engineered in such a manner as to help delay or eat up recoil energies. The M-16 uses a spring loaded recoil buffer for example. On a larger scale, the Barret M-82a1 uses a rail mounted bolt and barrel the recoil in unison against a set of powerful springs.
Its my guess that somthing like the above examples is what they meant by special chamber design.
Posted by: Aaron Mar 1 2007, 01:09 PM
I don't see why not. I imagine a "special chamber design" is in the chamber, which is in the body of the weapon, whereas a barrel mod like the gas vent system is in, well, the barrel.
Posted by: Tomothy Mar 1 2007, 01:49 PM
Ok cool, second question:
Do you need the heavy weapons skill to use the auxiliary grenade launcher on the ares alpha?
Posted by: Thanee Mar 1 2007, 01:56 PM
Yes. At least, if you want to use it effectively (i.e. no, you cannot use Automatics instead). 
Bye
Thanee
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 1 2007, 02:30 PM
Remember kids: If you botch a grenade launcher shot, whats left of your team is unlikely to be very happy with you.
Posted by: crimson ronin Mar 1 2007, 02:44 PM
anyone know if the gases coming from the barrel to reduce recoil lower the range of the projectile? and by how much?
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 1 2007, 02:49 PM
| QUOTE (crimson ronin) |
| anyone know if the gases coming from the barrel to reduce recoil lower the range of the projectile? and by how much? |
The difference is so minimal as to be immesureable. In most cases, the prescence of a venting system (or even a well designed suppressor) improves accuracy as it tends to sculpt and form the gasses into a controlled stream versus the violent jet of gas that normally exits around the projectile.
As these systems are usually fitted on to the end of the muzzle, its not robbing the shot of any pressure, its just redirecting the aftermath.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Mar 1 2007, 04:22 PM
| QUOTE (Tomothy) |
| Ok cool, second question: Do you need the heavy weapons skill to use the auxiliary grenade launcher on the ares alpha? |
...in SR3 you could default from your Assault RIfles skill if the GL was integrated in the weapon's design (like the Alpha). I houserule that you can use the integrated GL with a -1 modifier to your Automatics DP
Posted by: lorechaser Mar 1 2007, 04:50 PM
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) | ||
...in SR3 you could default from your Assault RIfles skill if the GL was integrated in the weapon's design (like the Alpha). I houserule that you can use the integrated GL with a -1 modifier to your Automatics DP |
You're too nice.
6 bp gets you Heavy Weapons (Grenade Launcher) - that's agi+3. Typically that's enough to do most things you wanna do.
Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 1 2007, 05:30 PM
Personally, I much prefer the Alpha with a sound suppressor, that way you've got the stopping power of an assualt rifle without the HTR showing up from the noise 
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Mar 1 2007, 05:48 PM
| QUOTE (lorechaser) | ||||
You're too nice. 6 bp gets you Heavy Weapons (Grenade Launcher) - that's agi+3. Typically that's enough to do most things you wanna do. |
...I know, but it does make sense if it is an integral part of the weapon the character has trained with.
Then agian I get them (the PCs) when they least expect it.
Yeah, you can get that Ares Alpha at chargen, just wait till you pull it out...
"...hey, forget the mage, geek the guy with the Alpha, I want it."
Posted by: Thanee Mar 1 2007, 06:18 PM
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Mar 1 2007, 06:48 PM) |
| ...I know, but it does make sense if it is an integral part of the weapon the character has trained with. |
It makes sense, if you trained with a weapon with an integral grenade launcher, that you picked up some knowledge in Heavy Weapons (Grenade Launcher), actually, not the other way around. So the player should put some BP there to reflect this training...
Bye
Thanee
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 1 2007, 06:58 PM
| QUOTE (Thanee) |
| It makes sense, if you trained with a weapon with an integral grenade launcher, that you picked up some knowledge in Heavy Weapons (Grenade Launcher), actually, not the other way around. So the player should put some BP there to reflect this training... |
Yeah and no. I sorta agree here, and heres why:
Using real life as an example (i know this is never a good idea) the closest thing we have to the Alpha is the M-16a4 with M-203 as used by the USMC.
The M-16 portion of the weapon is fairly intuitive for use, and as such has been made into a very popular civilian version called the AR-15. Your local rifle range is likely full of AR-15 variations most saturdays (unless you live in the peoples republic of California, Illinois, or other states that fail to understand the phrase 'shall not be infringed').
These are easy to shoot rifles that are very approachable for a beginner, but still offer much in the way of potential to a master marksman. Also, most police agencies provide at least familiarization training on similar weapons. The point here is that it's not at all surprising to run accross someone who knows how to use one of these. Hell, my Mom can outshoot the local cops!
Now the M-203 on the other hand is an obscure beast. The only branch in the US military that I know for sure trains EVERYONE on how to use these is the Marine Corps. The Army might as well, but Im not 100% on that.
Even in the Marines, trigger time on the M-203 was rare. The ammo is expensive, and we usually trained using chalk rounds (burst into a big orange poof on impact). Actual training with the HEDP's we use in the field was even rarer.
When a player in my campaigns wants to take Heavy Weapons as a starting skill, I expect them to have a history that backs this up.
Just my 2 cents.
Posted by: Butterblume Mar 1 2007, 07:34 PM
| QUOTE (HullBreach) |
| Using real life as an example (i know this is never a good idea) the closest thing we have to the Alpha is the M-16a4 with M-203 as used by the USMC. |
Well, the closest thing we have ist the G36 with the AG 36 underbarrel grenade launcher (it's a more modern and, I believe, capable design, but since I have absolutely no experience with either, that's just hearsay
).On topic, getting the heavy weapons skill makes sense for me to use the grenade launcher. It's even cheap to get at a decent level (1, +2 for specialization), und it's RAW, so I'll just use it.
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 1 2007, 07:49 PM
| QUOTE (Butterblume) |
| Well, the closest thing we have ist the G36 with the AG 36 underbarrel grenade launcher (it's a more modern and, I believe, capable design, but since I have absolutely no experience with either, that's just hearsay ). |
For the most part I agree with you, I just wish they were both chambered in somthing a little more powerful than the 5.56
The best features of the G36 in my opinion are the magazines (clear polymer with attatch points allowing the mating of mags) and the sight grouping on the German domestic version.
This sight grouping puts a 1x red dot sight (similar to the Aimpoints popular here in the states) which is great for close-midrange engagements stacked on top of a 3.5x telescopic sight for long distance work.
The C and K variants don't intrest me much, as a 5.56 round coming out of anything shorter than a 16" barrel is pretty anemic in the stopping power department.
Posted by: Thanee Mar 1 2007, 08:06 PM
| QUOTE (HullBreach) |
| Your local rifle range is likely full of AR-15 variations most saturdays. |
I'm reasonably sure, that this is not the case.
| QUOTE |
| When a player in my campaigns wants to take Heavy Weapons as a starting skill, I expect them to have a history that backs this up. |
Of course. I basically meant, that if you are someone who trained with such a weapon you learn the skill, instead of you can use some other skill in its stead, just because it happens to be used with the other part of the weapon.
Automatics is not the skill to use the Ares Alpha, it's the skill to use the rifle part of the Ares Alpha (among others).
Bye
Thanee
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 1 2007, 08:19 PM
| QUOTE (Thanee) |
| I'm reasonably sure, that this is not the case. |
Where do you live? Im just outside of Tampa, FL, and military type rifles outnumber traditional sorts by as much as 3-to-1 on Saturdays, with AR based platforms making up the lions share followed closely by SKS's.
And this brings up an interesting point: What would the rules be for firing canister (think supersized buckshot) rounds from a grenade launcher? Would this fall under heavy weapons?
I might have to do up rules for these for my site.
Posted by: Wasabi Mar 1 2007, 11:24 PM
Regarding the Ares Alpha and not having the skill to use a Grenade Launcher I have two words: Airburst Link
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 1 2007, 11:30 PM
| QUOTE (Wasabi) |
| Regarding the Ares Alpha and not having the skill to use a Grenade Launcher I have two words: Airburst Link |
If you don't know how to properly angle the launcher, that just means the rounds going to explode that much closer to you after it skips off the deck.
Grenades are fairly low velocity projectiles (can be seen flying through the air with the naked eye) and the launcher must be significantly elevated to acheive any kind of real range.
Assuming the grenades in Shadowrun are more like the new 25mm high-pressure ones in development for programs like the XM-25, they will have a flatter trajectory than the 40mm's Im used to, but they will still require some skill to use.
Posted by: Butterblume Mar 1 2007, 11:42 PM
Well, the SR4 airburst link has a minimum range, for safety, so you might just survive a bad shot. Well trained people would probably dare to disengage the safety. (still a risk, someone invisibly might just stand in front of you 
).
Posted by: Thane36425 Mar 2 2007, 12:58 AM
One of the newer rifles in the AK family has a recoil control system where the barrel and chamber all slide back as part of the cycle. The idea behind this was to give the rifle a 2 round burst at a very high rate of speed and control the recoil enough that the impulse would not affect the rifle much until the second round left the muzzle. Can't think of the number, like AK 47, though.
As for the canister round for a grenade launcher: I would treat it using shotgun rules and ranges, cylender choke only though. The question is do you go with a bonus to hit or to damage? There would be more shot going down range, but its velocity would probably be about the same or less for a shotgun. I'm more inclined to give a bonus to hit than increased damage.
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 2 2007, 01:02 AM
| QUOTE (Thane36425) |
| One of the newer rifles in the AK family has a recoil control system where the barrel and chamber all slide back as part of the cycle. The idea behind this was to give the rifle a 2 round burst at a very high rate of speed and control the recoil enough that the impulse would not affect the rifle much until the second round left the muzzle. Can't think of the number, like AK 47, though. As for the canister round for a grenade launcher: I would treat it using shotgun rules and ranges, cylender choke only though. The question is do you go with a bonus to hit or to damage? There would be more shot going down range, but its velocity would probably be about the same or less for a shotgun. I'm more inclined to give a bonus to hit than increased damage. |
On the first bit, your thinking of the AN-94 Akban, which is a fascinating weapon. More info here: http://world.guns.ru/assault/as08-e.htm
On the second bit, it really depends on whether you are using oversized shot. Im doing some digging on these loads (last time I can confirm they were used in combat was Viet Nam) and should have an answer about that soon.
Posted by: Thane36425 Mar 2 2007, 01:12 AM
| QUOTE (HullBreach) |
| On the first bit, your thinking of the AN-94 Akban, which is a fascinating weapon. More info here: http://world.guns.ru/assault/as08-e.htm On the second bit, it really depends on whether you are using oversized shot. Im doing some digging on these loads (last time I can confirm they were used in combat was Viet Nam) and should have an answer about that soon. |
That's the one. I'd be interested to see what you find on the canister rounds.
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 2 2007, 01:29 AM
Last time the M576 40mm buckshot round was discussed on these forums, I believe we concluded it was 27 00-buck -- so not oversized shot, but more than you'll get in nearly any normal shotgun loading -- but at a seriously low velocity. It definitely wouldn't deserve a higher damage code than the most powerful shotguns. Basically just make it do the same as the average shotgun.
Flechette APERS would be different, but I'm not sure if those have ever found their way into military use with personal grenade launchers. They do exist for the Mk 19 AGL.
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 2 2007, 01:31 AM
Got the data, I'll start a new thread for it.
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 2 2007, 01:33 AM
I'd suggest checking http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=2517 out first.
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 2 2007, 02:00 AM
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| I'd suggest checking http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=2517 out first. |
Great design, but Im shooting for somthing that a gun-bunny can load in his Assualt Rifles underslung GL for situations where grenades would be inapropriate (i.e. CQB)
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 2 2007, 02:02 AM
Towards the end of the thread it goes through exactly what you can expect from an M576.
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 2 2007, 02:16 AM
OOps! Didn't read the whole thing (damn ADD) making another pass on it.
Posted by: Jaid Mar 2 2007, 02:17 AM
| QUOTE (HullBreach) | ||
Great design, but Im shooting for somthing that a gun-bunny can load in his Assualt Rifles underslung GL for situations where grenades would be inapropriate (i.e. CQB) |
so buy him a gas mask and some inhalation vector gas grenades. or smoke grenades, with appropriate vision enchancement.
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 2 2007, 02:22 AM
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| so buy him a gas mask and some inhalation vector gas grenades. or smoke grenades, with appropriate vision enchancement. |
Another good Idea, they make special shotgun shells that blow out a cone of OC powder (tear gas). Imagine a 40mm version!
Posted by: Magus Mar 2 2007, 05:44 AM
| QUOTE (HullBreach) | ||
Yeah and no. I sorta agree here, and heres why: Using real life as an example (i know this is never a good idea) the closest thing we have to the Alpha is the M-16a4 with M-203 as used by the USMC. The M-16 portion of the weapon is fairly intuitive for use, and as such has been made into a very popular civilian version called the AR-15. Your local rifle range is likely full of AR-15 variations most saturdays (unless you live in the peoples republic of California, Illinois, or other states that fail to understand the phrase 'shall not be infringed'). These are easy to shoot rifles that are very approachable for a beginner, but still offer much in the way of potential to a master marksman. Also, most police agencies provide at least familiarization training on similar weapons. The point here is that it's not at all surprising to run accross someone who knows how to use one of these. Hell, my Mom can outshoot the local cops! Now the M-203 on the other hand is an obscure beast. The only branch in the US military that I know for sure trains EVERYONE on how to use these is the Marine Corps. The Army might as well, but Im not 100% on that. Even in the Marines, trigger time on the M-203 was rare. The ammo is expensive, and we usually trained using chalk rounds (burst into a big orange poof on impact). Actual training with the HEDP's we use in the field was even rarer. When a player in my campaigns wants to take Heavy Weapons as a starting skill, I expect them to have a history that backs this up. Just my 2 cents. |
I was in the Army with the 82nd Airborne Infantry (A Co. 4/325th A.I.R.) and all of us in the infantry had 100% knowledge of how to use all of the Infantry weapons we had in stock. From the 9mm Barettas, Shotguns to the M-60. We got a lot of range time with the m-203. My personal favorite small arms weapon system.
Posted by: Thanee Mar 2 2007, 06:00 AM
| QUOTE (HullBreach) |
| Where do you live? |
Germany.
Bye
Thanee
Posted by: Crakkerjakk Mar 2 2007, 08:33 AM
Magus, you airborne fellas train on AT-4s? Or is that only us Jarheads?
Posted by: Magus Mar 2 2007, 08:49 AM
| QUOTE (Crakkerjakk) |
| Magus, you airborne fellas train on AT-4s? Or is that only us Jarheads? |
Big Boom stick with itty-bitty control rods to take it off safe, and then it depressurizes your ears. Damn I loved firing those things on a live fire. Although my Dragon was more fun.
Posted by: Crakkerjakk Mar 2 2007, 08:58 AM
Never got to fire a real one *grumble* too expensive to use live rounds for non grunts. Stupid bean counters.
They did let me play with a LOT of nades tho. Man those things are hard to throw. Heavy as hell. I wish they would actually increase the size of the shell to a baseball, just so I could get a better grip on the damn thing. Then again, they probably want them to fit entirely in your hand so there's no unfortunate accidents with spoons flying prematurely.
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 2 2007, 12:08 PM
My Gunner (warrant officer) was huge on us practicing with weighted practice grenade shells. Whenever we had to provide a body for some kind of undesireable duty or working party, who went was decided by all of us junior enlisted playing what was essentially a modified game of horseshoes using a tire-swing hung from a pull-up bar.
You got three tosses. If you hit the tire, that was 1 point, if you put it through the tire that wa 3 points, and if you managed to stick it inside the tire, that was 5 points.
Whoever the low-scoreres were had to go on the work detail.
Other units saw us playing this, and thought we were nuts.
Posted by: Crakkerjakk Mar 2 2007, 05:29 PM
Was playing opfor for the32nd(i think) MEU in oki, and we come across these two grunts. Big corn-fed farmboy and this little wiry guy. They got a crapton of practice frag fuses and a practice shell. The little guy is chucking a practice frag out into this field, and then the big guy is running after it, in a flak and kevlar, and throwing himself on top of it beofre it goes off. Then he scoops up the shell and comes running back to the wiry guy.
We're like, "What the hell are you doing?" and the wiry guy is like, "Practicing for his medal of honor."
Fucking grunts.
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