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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Need GM feedback on an item for HA
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 6 2007, 01:49 AM
PLEASE READ THIS PAGE PRIOR TO VOTING:
http://heavyangel.com/?page_id=61
This ones going to be rough. The page for this is not live (linked into the other pages) at my site yet, as I want to get some opinions on it as written.
The rules on this are a little complex, so I do ask that you please read them carefully before making your decsion. Also, note that this ammo is ONLY availible for light pistols and Machine pistols.
Once again, I thank the Dumpshock community for helping me out with Heavy Angel!
Posted by: Ravor Mar 6 2007, 02:21 AM
Well, personally if they are supposed to be 'extremely illegal' then I think they should be F Grade instead of R.
What I would do is something like this..
AP -2
DV +2
Glitches on 1-2 and ruins the gun
Critical Glitches ruin the gun and does damage as you suggested
Roll 1d6 everytime the gun is fired, on a '1' then the round was loaded even hotter then this ammo was meant to be, and the stats become...
AP -3
DV +3
Glitches on a 1-3
Oh and I think it should be allowed with heavy ammo as well, but perhaps add an +1 to whatever is considered a Glitch if you think a heavy pistol using this is too powerful. (However, I personally don't think it is as I know that I would never load this type of ammo with my characters unless I had no choice or figured I was making a last stand anyways...)
Still I can totally see some macho ganger or street sam overloading his ammo in his basement hoping for a bigger bang and losing a hand when his weapon explodes.
***Ok as a disclaimer, although I own several firearms and have shot many different types of firearms in my life I do not claim to be a gun nut and the numbers that I've posted are just numbers that I've pulled from the air that sound good to me, they are *NOT* meant to repersent anything even remotely resembling the real world and I am *NOT* the least bit interested in debating the real world physics of using pistol powder in rifle rounds or anything similar...
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Mar 6 2007, 02:45 AM
...echoing the previous reply that thes rounds should have an F legality.
They should also have a higher availability than 12 so as not to be available at chargen.
I would also think that if they toast Silencers and Sound Suppressors Gas Vents would also be vulnerable. So the only recoil comp you can apply are Shock pads, folding stocks and Barrel counterweights (the last which should be forthcoming in Arsenal).
All I can say is thank heaven these can't be used in a Super Warhawk.
And don't think of putting them in your Fabuki. 2000 
(4000 if internally Smartlinked) is a lot to waste on one big shot.
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 6 2007, 03:06 AM
Oops, I actually meant for that to be an F.
The reason I coded the AP abillity and damage the way I did was to represent the low mass of the round resulting in a rapid decay of its abillities. Part of the point here is that these actually out-perform ADPS at point blank ranges because they completely ignore saftey as an aspect of design.
Im going to boost the availibillity and include some rules for manufacture by a player with the appropriate skills and gear (loading ammo is pretty easy to do).
Posted by: Thane36425 Mar 6 2007, 03:39 AM
Not all rifle loads are maxxed out. In fact, most of them are less than that to ease wear on the gun and make the shot more controllable. Your standard 5.56 has a roughly 3100 FPS velocity. However, you can hot load the shell to get well over 4,000 FPS. The problem is that the heat and pressure destroys the barrel very quickly. Even some of the purpose bilt hotloaded rounds like the .17s that are available wear out the guns if used often.
I definitely agree that it should be prone to failure. In RL, it is easily possible to overload a round. Now, that round might work in one kind of pistol, but another of the same caliber might not be as strong and would burst under the strain. An example of this is the .38 range of revolvers. These pistols can fit everything from .38 to .357 with several steps in between. However, not all can handle the power of a .357. All of them have, or should have, a rating stamped on the pistol telling the maximum round that can be safely fired from it. It is right on the side of the barrel on my .357.
It is an interesting concept, and one many reloaders play with. Just have to be very careful about.
There are some pistols that use rifle caliber rounds. They are single shot, bolt action peices mostly.
Posted by: Clyde Mar 6 2007, 03:53 AM
Use some mechanic besides glitches to replicate failure. The skill of the guy aiming the gun should have nothing to do with how much wear it takes from a given (over)pressure load. Different classes of weapon might have a higher chance of going kaboom - HV rounds in a machine pistol would be a really bad idea.
Posted by: Thane36425 Mar 6 2007, 04:11 AM
| QUOTE (Clyde) |
| Use some mechanic besides glitches to replicate failure. The skill of the guy aiming the gun should have nothing to do with how much wear it takes from a given (over)pressure load. Different classes of weapon might have a higher chance of going kaboom - HV rounds in a machine pistol would be a really bad idea. |
You have a point there, that it is based on the pistol rather than the skill of the shooter. You are right that this would vary by pistol class, but also quality. A purpose built magnum pistol would be more likely to sruvive a hot loaded round. A standard frame would be iffy and would wear out faster. A cheap knock off Saturday Night Special would be very dangerous.
Revolvers would probably also be more reliable. The firing mechanism is simply pulling the trigger, all the mechanical action takes place before the shot. An automatic, on the other hand, has all the action after firing and most use the recoil effect of the shot to cycle. A hot load would put a lot more stress on the action and would increase the odds of damaging it. Magnum semi-autos do exist, and they have been strengthened to handle standard magnum loadings. Hot loads would have less effect on those, but would still hurt them more than regular loads.
As for the mechanic of this, I can't think of anything off hand. Glitches are probably as clean as anything though.
Posted by: MaxHunter Mar 6 2007, 04:20 AM
I would use the stats of the old exex ammo: +2 DV -2 AP, or if you would like to stick to that flavor text on your link then kinda of a boosted APDS +1 Dv AP -4.
I like the rule of 1s and 2s counting for glitches, as well as the suggested effects.
Even though "realism" would call for a generic rule for wear and tear and not the usual skill linked glitch roll, I would not suggest more ad hoc rules. I thinks it's better for streamlining and quickness to keep it simple... i.e. use regular glitch rules.
Availability should be f but not necessarily 12, after all, anybody could make one with the right tools.
I have also enjoyed that sequence from GITS. Have you seen the second film?
cheers,
Max
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 6 2007, 05:58 AM
From the standpoint of realism... the projectiles are full caliber, very light (probably as light as the subcaliber projectiles of APDS rounds), have cores much softer than those of dedicated armor piercing rounds, and are not moving hugely faster than APDS rounds are right out the muzzle.
Because of the natural limitations to how much velocity you can crank out of a conventional firearm, if you're going to put in massive amounts of fast burning propellant in the case you'll be better off with a heavier and harder bullet. You can't outpenetrate an 0.24", 80gr, 3800fps tungsten carbide projectile with an 0.3", 80gr, 4500fps aluminum projectile, but you can with an 0.3", 120gr, 4000fps WC one.
I remember the scene from GitS, but I can't remember how or even whether the projectiles themselves are described, so if you wish to stick precisely to that description I guess you don't have much wriggle room there.
Posted by: Tomothy Mar 6 2007, 06:56 AM
"He hosed us with high-velocity AP rounds! That car door's no cover!"
"ln a submachinegun? The guy must be nuts. "
Then later
"That's what you get when you overload the ammo rating."
"Frame's bent all to hell. The barrel's shot, too."
Edit: Speaking of GitS I wouldn't mind a briefcase gun...
Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 6 2007, 08:52 AM
| QUOTE (Tomothy) |
| "He hosed us with high-velocity AP rounds! That car door's no cover!" "ln a submachinegun? The guy must be nuts. " Then later "That's what you get when you overload the ammo rating." "Frame's bent all to hell. The barrel's shot, too." Edit: Speaking of GitS I wouldn't mind a briefcase gun... |
They have one in SR3 Cannon Companion, wouldn't be surprised if it made a return in SR4 via Arsenal.
Posted by: Crakkerjakk Mar 6 2007, 10:09 AM
I agree that the glitch mechanic is handy, but shouldn't necessarily be tied to the round itself malfunctioning. I can't really see any streamlined way to handle it though. One slight suggestion, if there's more twos than ones on your glitch, you succeed in setting something on fire with your new gun-blowtorch(this is more realistic as low skill characters are more likely to accidentally do this.) Keep the critical glitch result.
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 6 2007, 01:20 PM
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| From the standpoint of realism... the projectiles are full caliber, very light (probably as light as the subcaliber projectiles of APDS rounds), have cores much softer than those of dedicated armor piercing rounds, and are not moving hugely faster than APDS rounds are right out the muzzle. Because of the natural limitations to how much velocity you can crank out of a conventional firearm, if you're going to put in massive amounts of fast burning propellant in the case you'll be better off with a heavier and harder bullet. You can't outpenetrate an 0.24", 80gr, 3800fps tungsten carbide projectile with an 0.3", 80gr, 4500fps aluminum projectile, but you can with an 0.3", 120gr, 4000fps WC one. I remember the scene from GitS, but I can't remember how or even whether the projectiles themselves are described, so if you wish to stick precisely to that description I guess you don't have much wriggle room there. |
The point your making here is very good, and I can probobly fix this by changing the wording of the fluff about the item.
The reason behind keeping the projectile relatively low mass is to aid in reduction of the already robust recoil. I know that I feel a significant difference in firing my .45 depending upon whether Im putting 230gr or 185gr projectiles down range.
The mechanic regarding glitches was done to keep things simple and fast. I realize this links a mechanical failure to a users skill, which is unrealistic, but it keeps play moving which is critical. If anyone can suggest an alternate (and fast!) means of determining this Im open to suggestions.
Oh, and I have seen the second GITS, and I own all of GITS: Stand Alone Complex. Great ideas for runs from the whole lot. Hell I actually own one of the production sketches from the first film!
Posted by: nezumi Mar 6 2007, 02:33 PM
"If the weapon is fired in full auto mode for more than two turn’s consecutively"
Remove the apostrophe.
Hmm... It would seem to me that the damage value should be lower, since this high speed, light projectile is more likely to overpenetrate or whatnot.
If its inspired by an SMG wielding bad guy, why can't these be loaded into SMGs?
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 6 2007, 02:55 PM
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| "If the weapon is fired in full auto mode for more than two turn’s consecutively" Remove the apostrophe. Hmm... It would seem to me that the damage value should be lower, since this high speed, light projectile is more likely to overpenetrate or whatnot. If its inspired by an SMG wielding bad guy, why can't these be loaded into SMGs? |
I seriously debated over whether or not to put a negative damage modifier on these, but as light pistols and machine pistols are already pretty anemic on the damage front, it seemed to negate the usefulness.
The MAC-10 is really the bastard sword of the automatic weapons world, as its not quite a machine pistol, and not quite a submachinegun.
I was worried about these being over-powered if loaded into SMG's, but I'll run the numbers and put some more thought into it.
Posted by: Thanee Mar 6 2007, 03:08 PM
So, are these some sort of gyrojet-like ammo (microrocket-propelled bullets, basically)?
As for the mechanics, I wouldn't use the 2 counts as 1, but rather lower the threshhold by some fixed number (see Gremlins for what I mean), mainly because that mechanic already exists in the game.
Maybe even give a flat penalty of -2 to the firearms test (in addition), because they are most likely more difficult to aim (heavy recoil just doesn't cut it for single shot weapons... for the MPs that will wreak havoc with your dice pool, though).
Also, shouldn't hypervelocity increase damage? Hydrostatic shock and such?
As written (unless I missed something) these things are utter crap, even though stylish. 
APDS gives almost the same benefit (-4 AP) and NO disadvantage.
Make them +2/-2 like the original EX-Ex (that's roughly equivalent to -8 AP, so technically twice as good as APDS).
Maybe they should also increase range bands somehow (i.e. double them), considering that they travel faster, shouldn't they also travel farther?
Anyways, that's my thoughts on the matter. 
Bye
Thanee
Posted by: mfb Mar 6 2007, 03:14 PM
i don't think using non-glitch mechanics to determine glitch-like failure is a very good idea. yes, realistically speaking, the shooter's skill shouldn't determine the chances of catastrophic failure in their ammunition. but skill shouldn't determine the chances of misfires, jams, double-feeds, and the like either--all of which are possible results of glitches. if you're going to switch from using the glitch mechanic to some sort of reliability mechanic for one item, you should do so for all items.
| QUOTE (Thanee) |
| So, are these some sort of gyrojet-like ammo (microrocket-propelled bullets, basically)? |
negative, private. they're basically smaller bullets with more powder.
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 6 2007, 03:24 PM
| QUOTE (Thanee) |
| Also, shouldn't hypervelocity increase damage? Hydrostatic shock and such? As written (unless I missed something) these things are utter crap, even though stylish. APDS gives almost the same benefit (-4 AP) and NO disadvantage. Make them +2/-2 like the original EX-Ex (that's roughly equivalent to -8 AP, so technically twice as good as APDS). Maybe they should also increase range bands somehow (i.e. double them), considering that they travel faster, shouldn't they also travel farther? |
Hydrostatic shock cannot be reliably induced in a body with muzzle velocities below 4900fps. I don't remember where I found that tidbit, but I'll dig for it if you'd like to know.
These are intended to be a last-stand desperate measure. These are the last best hope of an MP weilding character cornered by a Cyberzombie or some other nasty hard-to-hurt threat.
Also, these rounds fail to hold their inertia well due to the low projectile mass. When initially exiting the barrel these may have incredible energy, but this drops off quickly over distance.
A heavier projectile holds this energy much better, and though its trajectory wouldn't be as flat, it would fly much further.
Posted by: Thanee Mar 6 2007, 03:30 PM
I see.
Still, I see little incentive to actually use those over APDS...
Bye
Thanee
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 6 2007, 03:33 PM
| QUOTE (Thanee) |
| I see. Still, I see little incentive to actually use those over APDS... Bye Thanee |
Well I intended these to be a 'dirty little secret of the streets' type item. ADPS is a bitch to lay hands on, and in a pinch, combining these with a 'throw away' machine pistol could be a handy tactic.
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 6 2007, 03:57 PM
Ran the numbers on SMG's and I think its do-able. Im thinking that SMG's should be restricted to using the machinepistol range table when using these though, to represent the rapid energy loss of the rounds.
Once I get a little more feedback on these, I'll edit them again and post a second poll for HV Ammo 2.0
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 6 2007, 04:15 PM
"Hydrostatic shock" can't happen when a projectile hits a body anyway. Shock in general, as in supersonic pressure waves in tissues, can only happen at around 5000fps or beyond, as HullBreach said, and whether that'd make much of a difference compared to pressure waves at 4000fps is questionable -- I've not seen studies on that.
Small, light, non-deforming bullet = small wound = little damage. That it's moving at a staggering velocity won't help much unless you hit the liver or the brain. Might make for a nice splatter if you hit a gopher with it, though. On the other hand a penalty to the DV is not necessarily called for since it won't be much worse off than standard FMJ rounds for the same caliber -- except against trolls, because ammo like this would absolutely suck at penetrating deeply into bone and tissue.
Posted by: lorechaser Mar 6 2007, 04:27 PM
I like them. Conceptually, I see exactly where they fit. I don't ever consider ADPS because they're hard to get. These are easy to make, but deadly to use, and I think they fit the SR theme very well - life's cheap, and if you risk it, you'll put holes in a troll.
The 1/2's is a simple mechanic, and one that I think could be expanded in a number of ways - d20 modern has the Ultramodern Firearms, and has the idea of unstable effects - each effect increases the glitch range by one. That's significantly more dangerous in SR, but could still apply - if you want to use an incindiary over-packed round and get a glitch on 1, 2 or 3, you can. But know that very soon, you go boom.
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 6 2007, 04:31 PM
Ive always liked the reliabillity system from CP2020, as it gave individual weapons a little more personallity. I had a player who managed to jam a pistol on three consecutive attempts to fire it (and wound up beating the intended target to death with said pistol) and swore he'd never carry anything from that manufacturer again. He held to it, and trash talked them every chance he got.
Posted by: Spike Mar 6 2007, 05:23 PM
I...
Hrm. How to start this. First of all, the rules are reasonable, particularly if you are talking home made crap, then the availability isn't that much of an issue. I think the glitch mechanic should be streamlined as much as possible, but that's a given.
The real issue is that it seems to completely ignore the mechanics behind ammo construction... particularly with caseless rounds becoming more common (I think they are standard in shadowrun now, yes?). YOu can't just squeeze more powder into a caseless round without changing the shape of the round! I suppose you could argue for 'filler material' and purity of the powder involved.
Gas expansion has limits, that is to say even with an infinite amount of powder available you are never going to get fps higher than a certain point. Obviously different chemical compositions will have different rates of expansion. Further, while yes, many rounds are made with less than 'maximum' effective powder, there is still a limit to how much you can squeeze in for added power and still fit into the case. Most Wildcatters expirement with larger casings, necessitating using different mechanisms.
So to sum up: If emulation of GiTS is your goal (seems reasonable), then you've got gold here.
If emulation of real world gun mechanics/physics is your goal you have done left the tracks.
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 6 2007, 06:34 PM
| QUOTE (Spike @ Mar 6 2007, 12:23 PM) |
| Gas expansion has limits, that is to say even with an infinite amount of powder available you are never going to get fps higher than a certain point. Obviously different chemical compositions will have different rates of expansion. Further, while yes, many rounds are made with less than 'maximum' effective powder, there is still a limit to how much you can squeeze in for added power and still fit into the case. Most Wildcatters expirement with larger casings, necessitating using different mechanisms. |
Your half right with your criticism here. There are a wide range of powders availible to loaders today, all with varying burn rates. Its not uncommon for loaders to 'tune' ammo to a particular weapon by trying different types and quantities of powders.
For example, I own two different .45's, one with a 5 inch barrel, and the other with a 3 inch barrel. I use different ammunition in either one. Now let me explain why.
For my full-size piece, I use a fairly traditional store-bought ammuniton (Federal HST's, the +P variety).
For my shorter carry piece, I use HST projectiles that have been reloaded into fresh brass that is loaded with a 'hotter', or faster burning powder in a slightly lower quantity.
Why? Well my buddy who does the loading (I don't know enough to do it myself yet, but give me time) did a whole mess of calculations regarding burn rates, chamber pressures, and the amount of time it takes for a slug to exit the barrel. We then cooked up three batches of ammo (one dead on to his math, and one loaded a little to either side) and went to the range. Predictably, the middle batch had the second highest velocity, while the next batch up (in terms of powder quantity) saw a tiny gain in velocity with a large gain in recoil.
Thus, my ammo is tuned to the gun. If anyone wants the data, I can get you powder types and quantities for that load he cooked up for me.
In the case of this ammo, we are assuming that this is a large powderload of the hottest burning powder availible to a loader in 2070. Thus, regardless of weapon size it will maximize velocity at the cost of safety and controlabillity.
Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 6 2007, 07:24 PM
Anything to keep that edge, eh chummer? I'm having flashbacks to my shotgun when I critically glitched with 11 dice... or rather, flashbacks to what was left of the shotgun.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Mar 6 2007, 09:11 PM
| QUOTE (Thanee) |
| I see. Still, I see little incentive to actually use those over APDS... Bye Thanee |
...well, if it remains at Availability 12 you can get it at chargen. You can't start with APDS which I believe is 15 or 16. That does make a difference to some.
@Thane36425: As to using this ammo in Revolvers, I shudder to think of loading a Super Warhawk (which is already 6P -2AP with normal rounds) with HA. Even with the "Modified" EXEX this weapon is rather brutal (7P -3AP). Wouldn't want that blowing up in KK4.3's hand, that's for sure.
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 6 2007, 09:15 PM
| QUOTE (X-Kalibur) |
| Anything to keep that edge, eh chummer? I'm having flashbacks to my shotgun when I critically glitched with 11 dice... or rather, flashbacks to what was left of the shotgun. |
Believe it or not I asked him to load these for me because the muzzle blast with the standard loads was insane! There was still a lot of powder to burn after the projectile had cleared the barrel, and that was resulting in some heallacious muzzle flip.
I just wish they weren't so expensive to produce, it works out to a little over $1.50 a round with materials (counting the Beer donation for labor).
Are there any more suggestions (in light of my explanations) as to how you would like to see these implemented, or more importantly, what they would have to be like for you (as a GM) to allow them in your game?
My eventual goal for Heavy Angel is to make the site, and the equipment therin, so well balanced and peer-reviewed that the majority of game masters out there would be comfortable telling a player 'anything on this site is in my game'.
Posted by: Spike Mar 6 2007, 09:26 PM
Actually what I meant... and I did say it just unclearly... is that at the top end of the spectrum you really do run out of ways to make bullets 'go faster' using gas expansion. With pistol rounds particularly you will run out of cartrige space long before you reach that mark.
While it is damned impressive that you use tuned ammo, in the 'real world' I sincerely doubt your pistol is going to now virtually cut through armor, even if you were to load it with the very maximum you could get. Like I said, the HV rounds are good if you are talking Shirow-esque play, not so good if talking realism.
Do you have the numbers on just how much more muzzle velocity you gained? That would be of interest here.
Not that I'm advocating realism: It's a game after all
Posted by: HullBreach Mar 6 2007, 09:35 PM
| QUOTE (Spike) |
| Actually what I meant... and I did say it just unclearly... is that at the top end of the spectrum you really do run out of ways to make bullets 'go faster' using gas expansion. With pistol rounds particularly you will run out of cartrige space long before you reach that mark. While it is damned impressive that you use tuned ammo, in the 'real world' I sincerely doubt your pistol is going to now virtually cut through armor, even if you were to load it with the very maximum you could get. Like I said, the HV rounds are good if you are talking Shirow-esque play, not so good if talking realism. Do you have the numbers on just how much more muzzle velocity you gained? That would be of interest here. Not that I'm advocating realism: It's a game after all |
Muzzle velocity was right in the 890FPS ballpark, pretty close to the 910FPS as I get out of the fullsize. We loaded these with the intent of trying to match the velocity of my larger piece while eliminating as much recoil as possible.
Believe me that if this stuff existed in real life, I wouldn't let it near any of my weapons as I like them too much.
By the way, Im shooting for the same 'feel' and concept as the HV stuff out of GITS, but I in no way feel bound by their description. I just thought it would be fun to give players nightmares about 'why is that last ganger desperately loading a new magazine into his machine pistol?'
Posted by: Glyph Mar 7 2007, 03:21 AM
I kind of like these rounds. They are like cyberlimbs and combat drugs - something rare for a PC to use because of the drawbacks and the better options that are available to them, but great to give some extra ooomph to that Barrens ganger. They don't look too seriously unbalancing, either, but that's just from eyeballing them - someone who actually playtests them could give you a better assessment.
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