Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Which Operating System do you use?

Posted by: MrSandman666 Nov 3 2003, 10:34 AM

First of all: dear moderators, please do not move this topic to the projects board! I posted here intentionally to reach the target audience and no one is going to read this if it's posted on the community projects board.

Now to the poll:
Which OS do you use? A couple of friends and I are planning to develop a database application to help GMs with their job. Now we are consulting for which OS to design the program.
Should we use portable libraries like Tcl/Tk, Qt, etc. or should we restrict ourselves to one OS, like Windows and use native tools like C#, C++...
Would you be willing to install third party libraries like Python to get the program running?

And btw: this is going to be open source so if anybody wants to help... just PM me.

[official voice=on]Thank you very much for your cooperation[/official voice]

Posted by: Matrix Monkey Nov 3 2003, 10:59 AM

QUOTE (MrSandman666)

Platform: multiple (WinXP + GNU/Linux, PocketPC would be nice)
Portable libs: yes please
Third-party libs: sure, why not

Posted by: Birdy Nov 3 2003, 11:12 AM

Go with multi-plattform stuff like

Perl
TCL/TK
JAVA
C++ and QT

Don't go the Windows Way.

Michael

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Nov 3 2003, 11:32 AM

I use windows, XP currently, for the ease of use, and I am too lazy to learn anything else. The little I know about programming leads me to believe portable libraries are the way to go. A friend and I were at one time well into the development of a SR prog to cover everything in the game, that would allow all kinds of things. The time it was taking, real life getting in the way, and my piss poor programming sklls was our down fall. I was trying to improve my skills but my job and intrests was not in programming. I was mainly the idea, design and art department, he was the implementing/programming department, with a lot of cross development. It was fun but ut was not ment to be.

So my vote is make it diverse as possible, sure it is alot of work, but it may save you a lot more, when people cry "It doesn't work on my system" then you finally cave in and go to write it up to fit their system also. THat is also my opinion, an insignificant one from a guy who barely grasps C/C++.

Posted by: nezumi Nov 3 2003, 02:05 PM

what about 98 or people like me who have three or more computers??

Honestly, code it in Java. Java is easy to program in and its usable on any OS.

Posted by: Birdy Nov 3 2003, 03:51 PM

QUOTE (nezumi)

what about 98 or people like me who have three or more computers??

Honestly, code it in Java. Java is easy to program in and its usable on any OS.

Add the fact that while I am to busy to shoulder parts of the development (Two projects and counting up...) I am quite capabel of answering questions on JAVA and help out with problems/some code.

Michael

Posted by: MrSandman666 Nov 3 2003, 03:57 PM

Java is not an option. Don't ask. It just isn't an option. We're probably going to settle on C#, which is basically a more thought-out version of Java (with a C syntax, of course). Like Java it uses just-in-time-comilation, meaning it will need an interpreter of some kind (the Microsoft .NET framework, which is available for free and already available on most modern Windows computers, in this case). Currently, it only runs on windows but the guys over at http://www.go-mono.org are working like mad to get a C# runtime working for Linux. And since MacOS X has a Linux foundation it will most likely also run on the Mac. It's only a matter of time. But then again, it's gonna take us a while to get this done, too.

This is not definite yet, though. We might still change to Qt or whatever. Right know it just seems to be the easiest and most efficient way of doing it.
If anybody has any experience in working with Qt or Tk/Tcl, please share! None of us have ever worked with this before and therefore we don't know just how complicated it is to write a multi-platform app with these tools. However, I can see myself being killed by my co-workers if I suggest using Java. They have used it before and they hate it with passion.

Posted by: Backgammon Nov 3 2003, 04:02 PM

Yeah, where the hell is win 98 in that poll?

Posted by: nezumi Nov 3 2003, 04:12 PM

?? How is Java not 'well thought out'? It blows C/C++ out of the water in regards to foreplanning. I've never heard of Mono, so unless you have a lot of confidence in them, be careful. It's not fun to bet on a language doing something only to find it's going to be delayed or cancelled.

I fail to understand how Java is a bad language. It'll be a bit slower than C/C++, but that'll be the case with any language that uses an interpreter. Not to be nasty, but I can't understand why your coworkers hate java, unless they were using an old version (pre 1.2) or they were using it in a way it wasn't meant to be used, or they simply aren't trained to use it. I use it all the time and I really have no complaints; with complex stuff it's a lot safer and bug proof than anything else I've ever used.

I'd be careful about using C#. I don't want to have to set up yet *another* interpreter to use a program, especially if it's M$, which I'm always suspicious of. Obviously, same goes with things like perl, which windows users can't use easily. Probably the thing you can do to make it work best would be to integrate it into a website, either one which people can actually use online, or just an HTML front page which opens up your script, both of which the person downloads. Alternatively, make it in C++ and compile it separately for windows, linux and mac then post the source code for anyone else.

Posted by: MrSandman666 Nov 3 2003, 04:12 PM

Oops... forgot about good ol' Win98. Any Windows version counts as Windows XP for the purpose of this poll...

Now, I don't want to go into a fight as to why someone thinks Java is good or bad or whatever. I've never used it so I'm not qualified to judge it anyways. I'm just forwarding their opinion. There's no way I'm gonna get them to use that. But another question: I would like to try that out. Do you know of any good freeware/open source Java IDE and comiler?

Before today I haven't heard of Mono either but then again I didn't know that C# was designed to be a multi-platform language either. They're backed by Ximion which is a comparably large company and they're making progress pretty quickly. The Window.Forms module is planned to reach final stage by next summer or so...

A problem with Qt is that it's not for free and we can't each put 1,500$ into a tool like this. After all we're just doing this for fun in our free time.
The thing that really turns me off about Tk/Tcl is that it's a skripting language with a Syntax of its own. That'd be quite comlicated to develop.
And other than those two I haven't heard of any other good cross-plattform libraries (or at least I can't think of any...)

Posted by: Adam Nov 3 2003, 04:17 PM

OSX does not have a Linux foundation; it has a BSD foundation.

Posted by: Birdy Nov 3 2003, 04:21 PM

C# is not! a better JAVA - it's a cheap, lousy and MS-Only (forget MONO) piece of crap (used both!) If you want to use MS-only stuff, do yourself a favor and use Visual Basic 6.

C++/Qt is doable. Qt is a well-done, well tested library used i.e. in the KDE project. Works on MS-Systems also (check the licence!) Library is, according to a co-worker, Object-Oriented. Lot's of sample code from the KDE project.

TCL/TK (The former the programming language, the latter the GUI-Stuff) is a nice scripting language once you get used to the syntax. Interpreters exist for a variety of OS and the language is OS-independend (don't know wether a WIN-Version exists). There are two books on it out, one by the Author (Osterhoose IIRC) the other by Walsh. I preferred the latter due to better examples. Takes about a month (parallel to normal students work) to get into it once you're used to it.

As for JAVA:

Shoot your co-workers (Phone if you need help...)
Get a good IDE (Eclipes/JDeveloper 9 / JBuilder
Use JAVA 1.3.1 and above
Simply enjoy

Michael

Posted by: Adam Nov 3 2003, 04:23 PM

TCL/TK runs on Windows, absolutely.

Another option is Visual Smalltalk, but I've only used programs written in it, never actually developed for it.

Posted by: nezumi Nov 3 2003, 04:34 PM

If you want to program in java...

Go to the java website (java.sun.com) and you can find everything. You want the Java 1.3.* or 1.4.* SDK version (these are both J2SE, FYI). Here's the link to the download for 1.4.2:
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/download.html

When you install it, the quick and stupid way to program in it is to go to the folder you installed it in /bin. Create a new java file from a text file, renamed whatever.java .From the command prompt type javac name.java, then java name to compile and run.

You may want to use something else to compile, especially once you've mastered the basics of programming the language, but that's up to you.

The API (list of all the classes and how they work) is at:
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/index.html (you can also download them, yay!)

With that and a tutorial, you should be up and running in no time flat.

Back to the subject....
What is TCL/TK? I've never heard of it. Depending on the depth of your project, you could also consider programming it in flash (I hear chuckles from the other programmers here...). Apparently you can get Flash Director for free for 30 days, and the program is only a couple hundred dollars (maybe less?) Then you know most people can use it easily. Plus, it's quick and easy, so if you're just doing a stat calculator or something, that might be the way to go. That said, this is obviously only for more basic programs...

Posted by: BitBasher Nov 3 2003, 04:59 PM

Sorry nezumi, I am also on the bandwagon for utterly hating java. I vote for C++. I am using XP and CE. Used to keep other OS's but realized I never used them.

Posted by: Birdy Nov 3 2003, 04:59 PM

QUOTE (nezumi)

TCL/TK is the

Tool Command Language / Tool Kit

Created around 1996 by Osterhouse the idea behind TCL was a macro language you could use to link various non-gui Unix Tools. To that end the language is quite powerful when it comes to string handling (not PERL but nice) and can also do some math/OS-calls/DB-Connections (at least to mySQL/mSQL)

TK is the grafic add-on allowing the construction of GUI's that are close to the Athena Widget Set from the X-Windows System IIRC. If you understand X (or the cheap low-grade copy from Redmond) it's resonably intuitive.

Our students project was a personal adress database using an mySQL backend and a GUI for retrieval and printing (the later was done by writing a LaTeX file and starting the compiler and L2PS). Took us (three guys, one experienced and two novice) about a month with 3-5 hours/day.

It was some time since I last used it but I still have the book on TCL/TK 8 so I might help out there.

Go Mount Rainer,

Michael

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 3 2003, 05:12 PM

Gyah! *Hisses and recoils from C#*
There's a reason I named the incompetent NPC decker in my campaign C#. I have admittedly never used it myself, but as a CS major at an engineering school I have heard thus far nothing but hate for the thing.
I hate Java as well, but unless you want to admit that this quiz was just to tease us and you're really just going to support Windows and nothing else, it may be your best option.

~J

Posted by: Spookymonster Nov 3 2003, 05:54 PM

OS neutral with a single code-base and easy install? Go Java. The runtimes are already installed on 99% of the PCs you'll be running on. You won't have to recompile for every targetted OS. You also won't have to learn/write any OS-specific code.

Looking for volunteers? Go Java. If you're really just planning on a Wintel solution, C++ has a decent userbase among professionals and hobbyists alike. C# is (supposedly) similar to Java, but it has the stank of Micro$oft on it, which many Open Source programmers find highly offensive. And despite Ximian's best efforts, Mono is not 100% compatable with C#. It also doesn't operate with the blessings of M$, which means it can be shut down at Bill G's slightest whim.

Having said all that, I personally prefer Rexx, Perl, or Java. But then again, I'm a mainframe (T. Rexx) scripting geek .

Posted by: Liquid_Obsidian Nov 3 2003, 06:01 PM

please please do it in Java but the sun one , not the micro$hit , please...

Posted by: Tanka Nov 3 2003, 06:06 PM

I once attempted to learn Java. It might've been a really, really bad teacher, or it might've been that it was done in tandem with Oracle. From that experience, I don't like it. Yes, it's multi-platform, but how many people are willing to wait the extra so many minutes to interpret the Java.

In my experience, C/C++ are the best ways to go, both are multi-platform supported, and can be compiled beforehand so front-end users don't have to. If you can find the C/C++ coders to do it, go for it. If not, Java is the best way to go for multi-platform.

I won't even go into PERL... Setting up the damn thing is obnoxiously difficult.

Posted by: Adam Nov 3 2003, 06:13 PM

QUOTE (tanka)

They should upgrade from 486s, then.

Posted by: Birdy Nov 3 2003, 06:45 PM

QUOTE (tanka)

QUOTE

Yes, learning it with ORACLE (exspecially the pre JDev 9 tools) is a major pain in the ass. Been there, suffered that. And learning two big ones at the same time does not help either. I am regularly teaching JAVA to Trainees with minimal programming experience (mostly C) and they pick it up in less than two weeks (except the GUI-Stuff). J2EE (Servlets, WEB-Interface etc) takes about a month once you can do JAVA. GUI-Stuff (Swing) about two. And it is beautifully simple compared to C++, exspecially since it is pure OOP.

As for speed, the current JDK Versions (1.3 and above) have a Just In Time compiler that speeds up execution as well as a generally optimized performance. Just by switching JDK's I got a visual speed up (not just a measurable one). Our customers are quite happy with JAVA Apps both in loading and using.

Add a massive library (10 lines and I send EMail, 10-15 for talking to a WEB-Server (or acting as one) etc.) and you get one fine language. And some good newsgroups to boot.

QUOTE

In my experience, C/C++ are the best ways to go, both are multi-platform supported, and can be compiled beforehand so front-end users don't have to. If you can find the C/C++ coders to do it, go for it. If not, Java is the best way to go for multi-platform.

Only problem here is the GUI-stuff. That is sadly not part of C(++) unlike JAVA where you have AWT and SWING. Still, if one goes that way:

Use C++
Make sure you write a C++ programm, not C with some CLASS replacing Typedef
Design well

QUOTE

I won't even go into PERL... Setting up the damn thing is obnoxiously difficult.

Oh, PERL is a nice WORR - "Write once Reuse by Rewriting" language...

Writing me a cup of JAVA,

Michael

Posted by: Sahandrian Nov 3 2003, 09:32 PM

I was forced to vote XP, because that's what my current computer uses. I'd be using WinME if I had $300 to spend on it...

Posted by: nezumi Nov 3 2003, 10:11 PM

ACK!! WinME?? Are you a masochist?!? ME was Gates' last huge joke on users. An OS based on the less secure platform (98/95) with all the obnoxious lack of control and weird settings from the difficult OS (2k/XP). I would go back to DOS before using ME.

Posted by: Fortune Nov 4 2003, 09:16 AM

98SE for me, but I voted 'Other' before realising that all Windows products were expected to be 'lumped together'.

Posted by: Vanguard Nov 4 2003, 10:06 AM

To be useful to me, an in-game tool needs to run on my palmtop. I happen to have a Sharp Zaurus, it runs Linux. Most people own either a Palm or a WinCE device.

Java (in some form or another) will run on all of these, and will run on any desktop.

I'm actually in the early planning stages of an SR tool in Java, so if you want to collaborate at all let me know.

Posted by: Sahandrian Nov 4 2003, 10:49 AM

QUOTE (nezumi)

People always bash ME, but after spending about 15 minutes messing with the settings, I worked out the worst of it's problems (primarily a horribly slow startup). The thing crashed once a week at most, and that was usually due to some resource-heavy program (Kazaa, for example) running more than a few hours. It would run almost any program you could find (including some old things I had from back when I used 3.x), and I have yet to see a virus that actually affects the thing.

On the other hand, XP has screwed up just about every time I turn on the machine, almost every virus out there will damage it, and I've had compatability problems constantly. Even with something as simple as playing midis in Winamp. The only times Winamp crashed in ME was when I accidentally opened all my playlists at once, and it tried to read the resulting 20,000 song list all at once (the length is due to my midi collection - I downloaded zip files containing the entire collections from three midi sites). But with XP, I've gotten used to saving the playlist I'm making every 10 songs because it crashes so often.

And finally, if I was given the opportunity to remove any one feature from XP, it would have to be the error report boxes. No, I don't want to send an error report to Microsoft. I didn't want to send one the last 10 times this program crashed today, either. I hate those things.

Posted by: Spookymonster Nov 4 2003, 12:30 PM

QUOTE (Sahandrian)

And finally, if I was given the opportunity to remove any one feature from XP, it would have to be the error report boxes.

My Computer> Properties> Advanced> Error Reporting> Disable Error Reporting

Posted by: MrSandman666 Nov 4 2003, 01:22 PM

Wow, what were you doing to your WindowsXP? This thing has been running rock stable ever since I got it! The only bad thing is that it doesn't run all of the legacy applications like some older games but appart from that it's the best OS ever to come out of Redmont, as far as I'm concerned.
And why should all the Win32 Viruses not affect WinME?
Of course, I don't use XP all that much lately since I switched to Linux... I was getting sick of all this commercialized closed-source crap. Why spend hundreds of dollars on applications that don't work half of the time when I can have hundreds of applications for free that work totaly reliably (once you got them installed, that is...)?

Perhaps I should post a second poll to make it clear that I want all the Windows versions in one category and to include PalmOS in the selection...

Posted by: warlock Nov 4 2003, 05:08 PM

I use linux on the machine I have sitting with Me when we game. I would love to have more linux or even more web tools available. I have an internal webserver, so something thats accessable via HTTP or PHP would be awesome

Posted by: Bearclaw Nov 4 2003, 05:34 PM

XP all the way, but I'm looking at getting a Linux palmtop. I'll probably give up my dreams of coolness and get a Windows based one, but some good SR software that ran on Linux might change my mind.