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Posted by: TheOOB Mar 8 2007, 04:35 AM

Self-Actualization

The awakened initiate to deepen their connection with the magical world, technomancers submerge to deeper their connection with the digital, both have a theoretically infinite power level. There is no hard limit to the amount of power they can obtain, so long as they keep gaining karma, they can continue growing more powerful.

Mundanes, on the other hand, have a hard limit on the amount of power they can obtain. Once they have topped off all the skills and attributes relevant to their fields, and are equipped with the most wiz gear and cyberware on the market, there is not much more they can do to improve their power level.

I purpose that we allow mundanes to achieve “Self-Actualization”, and continue to advance their abilities much in the same way that the awakened and technomancers initiate and submerge. Rather then obtain a deeper connection with a parallel world from which they draw their power, then instead create a deeper connection with themselves, working to unify mind and body with the ultimate goal of reaching perfection.

Only characters who do not have the adept, magician, mystic adept, technomancer, or any other qualities that would allow them to initiate or submerge may self-actualize. Self-Actualization is a serious process in which the mundane deepens their connection with themselves and strives to improve both their mind and body. The exact process used to self-actualize varies greatly between person to person, but it is always a deeply personal experience where they strive to push their abilities beyond their normal limits. A street samurai may train extensively in a dojo for an extended period of time, a hacker may spend weeks logged into the matrix trying to find themselves, and an artist may create a great work in a new style.

Self-Actualization is measure in grades, beginning with Grade 1 and increasing. At the end of the characters first self-actualization they achieve self-actualization Grade 1, when they complete their second they achieve self-actualization Grade 2 and so on. The grades are for tracking self-actualization in game terms, every person refers to self-actualization in their own way. The cost to self-actualize is 15 + (Grade x 4) in Karma points. Characters who wish to self-actualize must pay that cost to advance to the next grade.

Self-Actualization Powers
Becoming self-actualized gives the character access to the following abilities.

Increased Attributes
Whenever a character achieves a new grade of self-actualization they may choose one physical or mental attribute and raise their natural maximum for that attribute by 1. They will still have to pay normally to increase that attribute.

Upon achieving self-actualization Grade 1 a character may choose either a mental or physical attribute to increase the natural maximum of, starting with Grade 2 and every grade thereafter they must choose a different type of attribute(physical or mental) to raise the maximum of then they did when they achieved their previous grade. For example is Joe the street samurai chooses to raise the maximum of a physical attribute when reaching self-actualization Grade 1, upon reaching Grade 2 he must choose a mental attribute to raise the maximum of, Grade 3 physical, Grade 4 mental, and so on.

Techniques
A self-actualized character may choose one of the following techniques at each self-actualizion grade (including the first). Unless otherwise noted no technique may be chosen more then once. Help in creating more techniques would be appriciated.

Haste: When the character spends Edge to increase their number of initiative passes the extra initiative passes last a number of combat rounds equal to their Edge attribute.

Lucky Bastard: The characters maximum for their Edge attribute increases by 1. They still must raise their edge via spending karma as normal. This technique may be taken up to 3 times.

Skill Focus: Upon taking this technique the character chooses any one active, knowledge, or language skill and increases the natural maximum for that skill by 1. They still must spend karma to increase the skill as normal. This technique stacks with the aptitude quality. This technique may be taken more then once, each time it applies to a different skill.

Spell Defense: The character gains a +1 dice pool modifier on all tests to resist spells and magical effects. This technique may be taken up to 3 times.

Strong Spirit: The characters essence increases by .25. This technique may be taken up to 3 times.

Thick Skinned: The character gains +1 natural impact and ballistic armor, this stacks with armor gained from all other sources. This technique may be taken up to 3 times.

Posted by: Ravor Mar 8 2007, 06:52 AM

Although I personaly don't care for the idea of Initiation and unlimited advancement for mundanes (Given that both from a meta-level standpoint as the mana levels increase, at some point in the distant future there won't be any actual mundanes anymore, as well as it just not being my cup of tea in general.), I have to say that your system does seem more or less balanced with the possible tweaking of the listed Techniques. I'm not sure that Haste and Thick Skin are balanced and just have a strong dislike for Spell Defense as instead of focusing on improving the mundane, it instead detracts from an awaken's abilities.

Posted by: Omer Joel Mar 8 2007, 08:03 AM

Self-Actualization... Isn't that something the Universal brotherhood offers in its posters and advertisement?

On a more serious note, I'd simply remove the skill and stat caps BUT require higher than usual Karma expenditure to go above them.

Posted by: Garrowolf Mar 8 2007, 08:18 AM

Okay I hate this idea for a lot of reasons. For one it doesn't fix a problem, it causes a whole new series of them. Open ended systems are absurd. I think that the magic and technomancers need limits. They need hard caps. Not the other way around.

Two while I don't mind the idea of feats, that is exactly what you have created. In the wrong system. If you want to add feats then add them at a more reasonable power level and for everyone.

Three a self actualized person would not be a criminal. The thing that Shadowrun dances around is that an intelligent and balanced person would not be a Shadowrunner. If these people were real they would have a mental disorders score higher then their bp total! They would be completely heartless and disassociated from humanity to behave this way. There is NO way for that kind of person to become self actualized. If they did then they would no loner be criminals. They would have to work through all the issues that allow them to react this way.

If you want a powerful character that is already out of balance then pick a physad.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Mar 8 2007, 08:36 AM

...I like the concept of Mundane Spell defence. I think instead of adding extra dice it should add a threshold to the spellcaster's test.

Go Ahead, cast that Mindprobe, hope you like the headache you mage slime!

...OK, I feel much better now, really.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Mar 8 2007, 09:48 AM

This is... wrong. Just... wrong.

Posted by: Garrowolf Mar 8 2007, 09:58 AM

A better way to do that would be a skill that spies and such would learn to become more sensitive to mental probes and try and block them out. I was thinking about a character on Babylon 5 that tried to block Talia from reading his mind by reciting songs, doing math, etc. It probably would have worked for most other telepaths but she was too powerful.

The downside of this skill is that it is an exclusive complex skill. You can't do anything else while you do it and it only works while you do it. You can block from the beginning only if you are aware that they might do that to you. Otherwise you get perception tests with it to realize the mental contact.

That way it is not a power but it isn't imbalancing either and it is difficult to maintain. It would just add to the willpower test to resist.

Posted by: Eleazar Mar 8 2007, 01:54 PM

Wouldn't the self actualization you are advocating here require some sort of power or energy? How are they going over their natural maximum? Why would it all of the sudden increase during extended training? Why do these mundanes all of the sudden become supermen? So, if 7 is legendary then what is a skill of 8, demigod-like? This sounds a bit too much like a dnd epic level handbook for mundane Shadowrun characters.

The way I understand self actualization is a realizing of maximum/full potential. So wouldn't self actualization just be another method(RP) for a mundane to realize his natural maxium attributes and skills. Rather than exceeding them somehow.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Mar 8 2007, 03:54 PM

Posted by: Spike Mar 8 2007, 04:39 PM

I'm torn. I like the basic idea, and I'll happily argue Garrowolf's point about the nature of Shadowrunners any day of the week.

And I even like the implementation. Unlike many fan-projects I see I don't get the feeling that this is a 'look how uber I can make my favorite characters' from it.

On the other hand I can definitly see how this doesn't really fit Shadowrun much, if at all. If people could gain self actualization so 'easily' then cyberware would be much less common. That's a crude version of the comment. Lets just say that realatively straight forward, easily acheivable 'Self Actualization' of this sort is more in line with 'Shaolin Monk' roleplaying, and less 'urban criminals'.

Posted by: 2bit Mar 8 2007, 05:37 PM

Infinite magical advancement is rhetoric, and should never be an issue within the scope of the game.

Posted by: Backgammon Mar 8 2007, 05:43 PM

Defining a serious system of "Self Actualization" is limiting.

Averything you described is or can be a Positive Quality, and Positive Quality can be bought with Karma and/or roleplaying (preferably 'and'), GM permitting.

So instead of structuring this big system that makes little sense, allow your characters to gain Positive Qualities based on significant events in their lives.

Structuring it into a rigid rule system is, as Rotbart eloquently stated, wrong, just wrong.

Posted by: Konsaki Mar 8 2007, 05:51 PM

I have to agree with 2bit. If you actually get a mage/TM to Initiate/Submersion level 13 then you need to make that character a NPC...

I have always felt there should be a hard cap on magic/resonance of 12, but if you actually can get a character up that high anyways, you probably have either neglected everything else on your character or been playing way too long with that character.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Mar 8 2007, 06:59 PM

Posted by: 2bit Mar 8 2007, 07:05 PM

That's not a bad idea actually; self actualization sounds like a great adept path.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Mar 8 2007, 07:27 PM

This is Parkour. Adepts are Parkour on mega-magic steroids.

Any questions?

I think this is a perfect system to rebalance Mundanes with mages and adepts and technomancers. Perhaps it's something that (meta)humankind has always been able to do.

Perhaps it's simply an expression of the Mana level's slow rise. Before, only guys like Parkour could do this - but as an alternative to the "Spike PhysAd" idea, perhaps this is what they were doing all along...

Posted by: Trigger Mar 8 2007, 07:59 PM

Parkour is a person? I thought Parkour was a french sport/ movement style/ philosophy/ martial arts and the people that practiced it were called Traceurs....but if there is an actual person named Parkour then I have actually been practicing a new cult religion for the last few months...

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Mar 8 2007, 08:27 PM

Posted by: ShadowDragon Mar 8 2007, 08:55 PM

Posted by: mfb Mar 8 2007, 10:20 PM

self-actualization goes against the core of cyberpunk. cyberpunk means trading in humanity in exchange for power, whereas self-actualization (especially as described here) means gaining power by becoming more human.

in SR, all of the 'superhuman abilities' that don't come from technology come from magic. a person who practiced this self-actualization and gained power from it would be an adept, and they would manipulate mana just like every other Awakened character. that's how it works, in SR. there are no higher powers of the unAwakened mind waiting to be unlocked--it's all magic.

now, if this "self-actualization" were some kind of simsense therapy thing, where you chip in for long periods of time and come out changed? that would be cool. and it'd cost essence.

Posted by: TheOOB Mar 9 2007, 01:07 AM

Perhaps self-actualization is an inproper name for the process, as mechanically all it represents is pushing yourself beyond your normal limits and trying to hit the absolute peak of your (meta)human abilities.

I can make a character a human character with a 6 in agility and a 6 in pistols, and via qualities I could even get both those up to 7. If I spend enough nuyen and essence I could even in theory increase those values even more via cyber/bioware, but at that point it's not my abilities so much as the wares abilities.

I agree with the common trend that at a certain point any character should be retired as they've just gotten to powerful. Sure in theory a magician could initiate dozens of times and be a god, and a mudane with these rules could self-actualize the same number of times and be crazy insanely powerful as well, but thats not the point of this process. The point of this process is to leave some room for advancement in your choosen field. At character creation by spending enough BP you can essentially master one field to the point where there is little or more additional advancement you can make in that field. At that point all the karma you gain can seem a little hollow in comparison to the mages or the technomancers, while they still have the ability to improve the core abilities, you need to spend your karma on secondary skills. Sure they are useful, but when you build a character to shoot things, you want to know that 10 sessions from now, you'll be a little better at shooting things.

Posted by: Konsaki Mar 9 2007, 01:16 AM

One thing you need to think about is the fact that Mages, Adepts and TM's are supposed to be better than their mundane friends just because they are 'special'. They spent the extra BP/Karma to be better and have all that cool shit.

Should you ever get to a point where you have to deal with a maxed out Mundane vs a endless 'awakened', I think you need to restart the game since you have obviously left the realm of normal shadowrunners and entered the realm of OMGWTFPWN level of gaming where you take out dragons for a run.

Posted by: TheOOB Mar 9 2007, 02:31 AM

But you can get extreamly close to maxing out your ability in a certain field at char creation with a mundane. For example, for a gunslinger, if you start with 7 pistols and agility (assuming human with apitude and exceptional attribute) and take some agility boosting cyberware you've allready hit close the best a mudane can ever be at pistols under the current rules.

Posted by: Konsaki Mar 9 2007, 02:47 AM

Yeah... and?
7 Pistols and Agility for an unmodded human is at 'Super Human' levels. So you maxed one skill out at chargen, you still have alot left to skill up and you obviously are going to be lacking in them due to spending so many BP on Pistols, Agility and the Positive qualities to bring them up to 7/7.

Now what about everything else? You just spent 138/400 just on the stats and qualities for pistols. Yeah, agility helps with alot of other skills, but you can only get 4 in them now since you maxxed out pistols.
One super maxed out skill doesn not equal a good shadowrunner. Infact, in most situations, it makes your runner weaker due to the fact that he is so specialized, but I digress.

Awakened characters are supposed to have 'cool' stuff that Mundanes dont have because the awakened character had BP spent at chargen to make them 'better'. Mundanes have 'Ware' to make themselves better so they can compete with the awakened charcters.
If you wanted everything to be even, then you might want to ban mages, adepts and TM's in your games, not make up some rules that make mundane characters just like them but without magic. I admit that they are good and well thought out house rules, but no thanks. You can play with them if you want, but I'll pass.

Posted by: ShadowDragon Mar 9 2007, 02:50 AM

Posted by: mfb Mar 9 2007, 05:00 AM

my opinion is that having the absolute maximum be achievable at chargen is poor game design. in that, i agree with the OP. however, trying to fix that by removing the caps will only cause more problems, given the game mechanics of SR4.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Mar 9 2007, 07:03 AM

I'm not so sure. I like this "Self-Actualization" system.

Remember, Shadowrun is as much Fantasy as it is Cyberpunk. Mages shoulden't be the only ones pushing themselves to the limits and beyond.

Besides, even with this in place, Mundanes still get hosed. They get what, an additional point in a mundane attribute, which they have to buy up with Karma? Mages get another point of MAGIC... I'm not sure it's comperable.

Posted by: TheOOB Mar 9 2007, 07:10 AM

Self-Aculization is really inefficant karma-wise on purpose. Most players will never use it, but it does give them the option to improve their abilities beyond normal limits if they are willing to dedicate themselves to it.

Some people would be willing to spend 19 karma to gain the ability to spend even more karma to get a stat raised.

Posted by: Glyph Mar 9 2007, 07:12 AM

I don't like this set of house rules - I have never liked "special advantages" for mundanes.

I admit that being able to reach the hard cap in a skill at char-gen is a sore spot for me, but that still leaves lots of room for lateral advancement for mundane characters. If I want higher skill caps to give characters something to strive for, I will use Frank's house rules.

Posted by: Taotao Mar 9 2007, 07:33 AM

Tweaking edge rules is a simple and solid way to beef up mundanes if needed. Have awakened characters regain edge slower or have lower limit for their edge attribute than mundanes. Still, 99% of all campaigns shouldn't have any problems with magic 10+ characters.

Posted by: toturi Mar 9 2007, 07:34 AM

Posted by: Ryu Mar 9 2007, 10:12 AM

I do not agree that mundanes need support in the first place.

They are able to reach the top at chargen, yes. And any player who does that better had lateral advancement in mind, else he will suffer from a lack of char development.

An option like this would only be required if the mundane had no options to get things done. That is not the case. Yes, at some theoretical point the mage will do everything and magic too. But that point won´t be reached in most campaigns.

Posted by: mfb Mar 9 2007, 04:53 PM

Posted by: Garrowolf Mar 10 2007, 03:47 AM

One of the biggest pushes for cyberware is to reach a level that magic and metahumans have. You shouldn't do anything to take that away.

Personally I am finding that I like Edge less and less. I find that it takes some of the grittiness of the setting away. If anything it should be capped lower not higher.

Posted by: Narmio Mar 10 2007, 05:09 AM

Er, guys, "be one with yourself", "push your body beyond the normal limit" and "achieve personal unity" stuff is represented in game by buying up skills and attributes, and then taking the Aptitude and Exceptional Attribute qualities.

Besides, this system really doesn't make any sense. Focussing on how normal you are and revelling in your mediocrity shouldn't make you better, just depressed.

If someone wanted to do this kind of *concept* in my game, then they get Latent Awakening(Adept) and their powers manifest through that.

Posted by: Garrowolf Mar 10 2007, 08:55 AM

Also Self actualization is about as far from cyberpunk as you can get.

I asked her where the self help section was and she told me, "That would defeat the point!"

Posted by: Steak and Spirits Mar 10 2007, 03:31 PM

The concept sounds workable. Anything that allows Mundanes to compete at only a fraction of where Awakened Character's can compete is awesome, in my book. As it stands right now, the Fanpro explanation doesn't cut: "Yes, we know that Awakened Characters are powerful, to a game breaking extent, so instead of really attempting to balance anything, we're just going to put that all on the shoulders of the GM."

Bullshit.

I'm going to give it another glance over, in a little bit. But on the surface, it looks cool, and like a workable concept. And don't let all the naysayer's drag you down. Sperethiel, and Elven Wine are less cyberpunk than this is - And somehow they passes the sniff-test into canon.

Punk is all about attitude, anyway. Example.

Two identically dressed kids are standing on a street corner. The first turns to the second and says, "Hey, what's punk?"

The second glances at the first, takes a step steps to his right, and kicks over some trashcans, and smashes their sides in under heel. He says, "That's punk."

The first kid walks over to those trashcans, finds one still standing up, and kicks it over. He starts bashing it in with his boot. "So this is punk, huh?"

Before the second kid can put a look of disgust on his face, and walk away, he responds, "No, dipshit. That's just fucking trendy."

Posted by: Farceseer Siranaul Mar 10 2007, 09:26 PM

I personally don't see the need for this. I just put a maximum of nine on the magic attribute. To initiate/submerge costs karma, and to fill in the space opened up in the respective attribute takes more karma. I, myself, am much harder on non-mundanes. This I think makes up for them being a bit better than the normals. My gamers know that drain is a bitch.

Every GM has their own way of dealing with older characters. If you feel this will work with your style and your gamers. Then by all means go for it.

Posted by: hyzmarca Mar 10 2007, 09:39 PM

Personally, I think that the better method of balancing mundanes with physads, magicians, and technomancers is to expand the cyberware selection (which will be done soon, hopefully), include more pieces that provide bonus dice without increasing the base stat and remove the lower limit from essence.

If you have PC mages with 12 magic then they'd still have trouble against a street sam with -6 essence.

Posted by: Farceseer Siranaul Mar 11 2007, 03:32 AM

That's a neat idea. Make essence a stat that you can increase. I'd say upto a maximum of nine. Like the other attributes.

Posted by: hyzmarca Mar 11 2007, 03:48 AM

Increasing essence just makes magicians that much more powerful because the magic rating is capped at Essence(rounded down)+grade. It also destroys flavor. The fact that essence cannot be increased without vampirism is an important part of the universe. My idea is to allow essence to drop below zero without killing the character. This is already possible in canon and gives the test subject some great anti-magic powers, too. By canon, it is messy, expensive, rare, and it drastically shortens the life of the subject. However, there is no reason why the procedure couldn't have been refined to the point of being commercially viable at some point during the previous five years.

Posted by: TheOOB Mar 11 2007, 04:54 AM

Acually, magic is capped at 6+initiation grade, you just lose 1 point of magic for every point of essence you lose or fraction there of.

Posted by: Ravor Mar 11 2007, 05:19 AM

Well I'd say that the reason for that is that Essence is also capped at 6, raising the Essence cap without also raising the Magic cap just doesn't wash in my opinion.

Posted by: TheOOB Mar 11 2007, 07:23 AM

The fact that essence and magic both cap at 6 normally is coincidental.

You could, instead of raising essence, give "virtual essence" that can only be used to instal cyberware.

Posted by: hyzmarca Mar 11 2007, 07:39 AM

It isn't coincidental, it was an integral part of the system back in 1989. Up until SR4, magic always equaled Essence + Grade (-loss, if any). Incidentally, this made vampire magicians even more absurdly powerful than they are in SR4.
It is an important part of the flavor that magic and essence are tied together in some inexplicable way.


And magic is capped at Essence +grade in SR4. Losing a point of essence doesn't just reduce the character's current magic, it also reduces the character's magic cap.
This is an important distinction because if the cap wasn't reduced then the magician could just buy another point of magic to replace the one lost, just like one can buy back burnt Edge.
The system is set up so that a magician who gets Cyberware has to initiate just to make up for the reduced magic cap and a magician who loses more than 5 points of essence can never initiate again.

Posted by: mfb Mar 11 2007, 12:21 PM

Posted by: Ravor Mar 11 2007, 02:50 PM

Posted by: Farceseer Siranaul Mar 11 2007, 03:27 PM

Posted by: Ravor Mar 11 2007, 03:58 PM

Ah, but something to consider is that since Essence starts at 6 and can never be raised by metahumans the following statements are all true...

Magic = 6 + Grade - Loss

Magic = Essence + Grade - Loss

Resonance = 6 + Submersion - Loss

Resonance = Essence + Submersion - Loss

Also worth noting is that once a Mage/Technomancer has lost more then 5 Points of Essence they can no longer Initate or Submerge and that freezes their max Magic / Resonance.

And also, although yes, we are talking about 4th Edition, but the precidents left by the previous editions are still there and should be given weight, espeically when following said precidents doesn't change a single fragging thing for metahumans in a normal non-house ruled game.

*Edit*

Oh, and once again exactly what logical 'Fluff' are you going to use to explain why mundanes are able to raise their Essence, virtual or not while Awakened can't?

Posted by: hyzmarca Mar 11 2007, 05:30 PM

I still have no idea why creating a brand new raising essence, which completely destroys the flavor of the game that has been established over the past 18 years, is somehow better than toning down the pre-existing cybermancy mechanics so that negative essence characters are viable in a high-level campaign.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Mar 11 2007, 05:31 PM

Or simply making implants cost less essence...

Posted by: hyzmarca Mar 11 2007, 05:44 PM

Cheaper implants would make mages more powerful. The essence cost is what discourages them from taking cyberware in the first place.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Mar 11 2007, 05:47 PM

..for mundanes.

Posted by: Garrowolf Mar 11 2007, 06:21 PM

Why not make it so that mages can only have a certain level of magic loss set to whatever level you want? If you want them to have some communications stuff and some visoin enhancements then restrict it to 1 essence. That way you don't have to worry about changing the essence costs causing imbalence with them.

Another way to do it would be to come up with a list of cyberware that you don't mind mages having. these could be things like the senses and communications and some bioware kidneys or something. Use the normal essence costs on them. Then allow them to go hog wild on that stuff but don't allow the rest. Maybe the reason is that the magic conducts and causes feedback from other kinds of cyberware. Whatever the reason, your mages wont be out of control and you can amp up your mundanes.

Posted by: Konsaki Mar 11 2007, 06:32 PM

How about instead of thinking up new rules to remake the game, you guys use the rules that are already there to limit mages? Background Count, anyone? Focus Addiction? Wards? Magicly active moss? Dual natured critters guarding a compound?
There are alot of options already in the game to slam mages who are amping up their 'endless' magic stat.

Really, the only thing I've read here is the age old 'Sam vs Mage' crap. Sure, you threw TM's in there in the first post, but anything else has been drowned out by the 'Mages are too powerfull' and 'Mundanes are too weak' junk.

My two at this point.

Posted by: Garrowolf Mar 11 2007, 06:42 PM

Konsaki, how does any of the things you listed reduce the power level of the mage themself or restrict the cyberware?

Background count can be avoided. You don't have to use foci to become ungodly powerful, so focus addiction and wards are not that much of an issue. Magically active moss and dual natured critters limit one ability each (astral and invis).

You didn't address the issue, you pointed at a road sign that said, "No Tanks on this road!"

Posted by: Konsaki Mar 11 2007, 06:58 PM

Well, what's the issue? Why do you think that mundanes are so weak that they need something like this to waste karma on?
What is the point, karma wise, where mages are way too powerful? When does it come to a point where both mundane and mage just have way too much Karma on their hands to spend and it ceases to be 'Shadowrun' and is instead a game of 'Demi-god'?

Once it gets to a point where your mundane has to whine about mages have a magic stat (wow, who would have guessed that mages have magic) that they can waste their Karma on and the mundane is maxxed out, I think it's time to restart with a new character or just snag 'Latent Awakening' from the MitS book and start your own magic stat to waste your non-mundane's Karma on. (Whew, long run-on sentence)
I can estimate that it would take around 400+ karma before you even get to the point where the 'endless mage' problem even arrises, if that. Course, I may be wrong, it hasnt been the first time.

Posted by: hyzmarca Mar 11 2007, 07:27 PM

Except that requires even more effort to maintain balance and it also destroys the flavor of the game.

How about this

Positive Quality -
Cybermancy 20BP
Characters with the cybermancy quality have been exposed to unnatural magical rituals designed to prolong metahuman life. They do not die when their essence reaches zero and can continue to add cyberware as their essence drops into the negatives.
Characters with negative essence may not possess Magic or Resonance attributes. If a character with Magic or Resonance reaches negative essence, he automatically loses that attribute.
Cybermancy is a rare art and the treatment is only available from the most SOTA Delta Clinics and the most vile of back-ally bloodmages.
It is strongly recommended that characters should not be allowed to take this quality at chargen.

Negative Quality -
Astral Hazing -5BP or -15BP
The mere existence of characters with the Astral Hazing quality disrupts the flow of mana around them. If a character with Astral Hazing stays in an area for an hour then that area will develop a background count of 1. The background count will increase by 1 every hour until it reaches the character's essence value/2 (round up).
When the character leaves the area the background count fades by 1 point every hour.
Characters with a negative essence value and Astral Hazing produce mana voids in the same manner, with the background count decreasing by 1 every hour until it reaches their essence value (round down).
The background counts produces by Astral hazing are never aspected. Magicially active characters with this quality suffer the same penalties as everyone else.
The qualiy is -5 for characters who do not have a magic attribute and -15 for those who do have a magic attribute.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Mar 11 2007, 07:55 PM

Because it still dosen't adress the fact that you're talking apples and oranges - or and karma. Sure, there may be an exchange rate, but it's ALWAYS a disadvantagous rate.

So even if your DM is letting his mundanes trade in Karma for in huge lumps, he's still never going to afford enough to get all that delta he needs. And you do realize that to buy the Cybermancy positive quality with Karma, you'd need forty Karma. That's a pretty damn significant chunk, and it dosen't even adress the cost of the cyber itself.

And anyway, cyber only goes so far - you're still limited by your augmented maximum. A human can never have a Body stastitic higher than 10, with the Exceptional Ability Positve Quality. Not even if he's the goddamned Robocop, a full-conversion Cyborg with obvious CyberEverything...

That's still less than an unaugmented Troll, and it's a lot less than what a mage or PhysAd can achieve with his spells. Plus, he's a freaking full-conversion Cyborg!

I think you're missing the point. The point is that while the ability to install all the cyber you want is theoretically neat, the fact is that it's not all that good. You're still limited by caps, plus you're outlaying ridiculous amounts of for all those goodies. Whereas the Mage and PhysAd need only Karma.

I'd say just go with the OP's "Self-Actualization" routine. It's entirely appropriate, balanced, and fits nicely within the rules we have already.

Posted by: mfb Mar 11 2007, 10:49 PM

ShadowDragon8685, seriously, man. if advancement is easier for the Awakened because karma is more readily available than cash, then maybe the GM should hand out more cash and less karma. my GMs have tended towards the opposite, actually; most of my characters live comfortably, but i have to squeeze every point of karma to get maximum value out of it. neither situation is optimal for every group, and if there are problems, it is the GM's job to fix them.

and as far as augmented maximums go, it's been suggested that removing those maximums would go a long way towards correcting any perceived imbalance between high-end Awakened and mundane characters--without making up completely new rules that go directly against all previous material.

self-actualization as presented here is entirely inappropriate for SR. the whole point of cyberpunk is that you're trading in your soul in exchange for power. yes, the fantasy aspect means that's not always necessary--in which case, such mechanics should be fantastic, which means magical. man, unaided by either augmentation or magic, should be limited because that is the basic premise of the SR world.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Mar 11 2007, 10:57 PM

mfb, my point is that Karma awards and cash awards aren't even comparable.

For the amount of money it would cost to turn someone into a Deltaware Monstrosity, most mages could have set up their own Oricalcum factory and lived forever in luxury. Most of them WOULD have. They could have a set of armor made out of solid oricalcum, backed with Ubotanium, dikoted and then coated with Rutherenium... For every day of the year.


But even ignoring that, there is the fact that even Cyberware is capped, Magic isen't..

Posted by: Garrowolf Mar 11 2007, 11:02 PM

I have a question - who are you trying to reflect?

Please give an example from movies or something to show the kind of person that you are trying to reflect with these rules. Are you trying to show a super genius or a super athlete or what?

Posted by: mfb Mar 11 2007, 11:14 PM

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Mar 11 2007, 11:23 PM

Sure... Give out free cyber - and who's installing it?


Yeah. I thought so. The Runner who's stupid enough to go under Mr. Johnson's knife is a dumb fuck.

Posted by: mfb Mar 11 2007, 11:25 PM

yeah, gosh, it's impossible for runners to get cyberware installed. that's why nobody has cyberware. crazy world!

one more thing the GM can handle. it can be as easy as providing them with a trustworthy street doc contact.

Posted by: hyzmarca Mar 12 2007, 12:02 AM

You know, there is a reason why my little writeup didn't say anything about deltaware being necessary to the process and that it is available from the vilest of back-alley blood mages. Characters who can afford deltaware don't need cybermancy unless Augemntation makes Move-by-Wire baddass again, and I don't see how that is possible without destroying the augmented caps.
The ability to apply cybermancy to lower grade ware makes it far more accessable, even if finding someone who will perform the procedure takes some effort.


40 karma being too extreme a cost, consider that a magical character has to pay 293 karma in order to initiate and raise his magic attribute 6 times in order to gain benefits equivalent to six negative essence points worth of 'ware.

Of course, 40 is a lot of karma to pay up front so a leveled system would be better, say 5-10BP per level with each level allowing the character to take another negative essence point. Or maybe 10 +(level*3) karma per level with the quality being unavilable at chargen would be more appropriate, bringing the costs in line with initiation.

As for magic being uncapped, well the magic stat is uncapped. Magical stat bonuses should be limited by the augmented caps. Adept powers are limited by the augmented caps and Samurai have far more in common with Adepts than they have with magicians. The big complaint is that Samurai eventually hit their essence limit but Adepts can keep initiating and gaining powers forever, nevermind that most adept powers are less efficient than the equivilant 'ware is. Adepts can get the 'ware and have the powers.

The problem is that mundanes don't have a special mundane stat that they get to raise as high as they want to while magically active characters and technomancers do.
Well screw that, mundanes don't need a special stat. They already have the ability to sell chunks of their soul with very little real consequences while magicians, adepts and technomancers feel those consequences acutely.

Cybermancy puts them back on equal footing. Samurai will be able to keep getting ware so long as they can pay the costs are are willing to deal with the healing penalties. At some point, healing penalties make further cybermancy impractical, but that is how it should be. At some point karma costs make getting more adept powers impractical. All things being equal, adepts and cybermantic Samurai will face very similar caps.

However, the magician kicks both their asses. The magician kicks both their asses for exactly one reason and one reason only, his special capless magician stat is rolled for pactically everything that he might want to do. An Adept's dice pools are determined by his capped stats, capped skills, powers that modify those stats and skills, and (occasionally) powers that provide bonus dice to specific types of tests . A Samurai's dice pool is determined by capped stats, capped skills, 'ware that modifies those stats and skills, and (occasionally) 'ware that provides bonus dice to specific types to tests.
The magician's dice pools are determined by a capped skill and his uncaped special stat, a fact that allows the magician to Powerbolt the Earth into dust if he initiates often enough. Samurai and adepts have an upper limit on what they can accomplish with a dice roll (before edge). Magician's do not. There is a way to correct this, of course, but some people want like it. It is simply really, exchange Magic's role with that of the tradition-specific drain stat. This caps spellcasting out at 14+bonus dice but makes it much easier for high-grade initiates to resist the drain of powerful high-force spells.

Balancing Technomancers with hackers it a much different problem, however, and I'm not familiar enough with the matrix rules to tackle it at the moment.

Posted by: Luddite Mar 12 2007, 12:13 AM

Is this really an issue? What is the likelihood that a game will run so long, and be so karma intense, that the sammie will have 5.99 points worth of delta grade cyberware, the best weapons and armor on the market, a full slate of maxed skills, and still be significantly less powerful than the mage or adept? Fairly low I'd say. Further, if it does come up, so what? The universe isn't game balanced.

Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 12 2007, 02:25 AM

I see we are having another Magic is Broken discussion.

Shakes his head

Posted by: djinni Mar 12 2007, 02:28 AM

Posted by: toturi Mar 12 2007, 02:29 AM

Posted by: Narmio Mar 12 2007, 05:36 AM

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Mar 12 2007, 04:46 PM

Posted by: mfb Mar 12 2007, 07:58 PM

it's not a problem because people do it; that is, it's not in and of itself unbalanced or broken. it's a problem because it makes for a very limited game--and i'm using a specific definition of "game", here: the part of the RPG experience where you earn advancement, the same way you earn advancement in parcheesi or monopoly. the game of SR is limited sharply; you can take your character to its extreme reaches right at chargen, or hit them right after chargen, and from then on you're stuck advancing in secondary and tertiary interests. this is somewhat alleviated by the fact that SR4 has a wide variety of skills useful and even necessary in a given area of expertise (in other words you can't generally be a one-skill wonder and survive). that still doesn't remove the chafing feeling i get when i make a character who's as good a shot as a Ghost.

which is basically what the OP is trying to fix, albeit only for mundanes. i just think he's going about it completely backwards. (i also think it's like shining the silverware on the Titanic, but that's for a different thread.)

Posted by: Ravor Mar 12 2007, 10:53 PM

hyzmarca, unless 4th's version of Man & Machine has Cybermancy rules that really blow my socks off, consider your second version (The one that costs the same as Initation) as stolen for my campaigns with some very minor tweaks.

It's brillant.

Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 12 2007, 11:01 PM

Posted by: mfb Mar 12 2007, 11:15 PM

Posted by: Konsaki Mar 12 2007, 11:18 PM

Then talk to your GM about raising the Skill caps after chargen to 7, 8 or 9...

Posted by: mfb Mar 12 2007, 11:28 PM

heh, my GM would be like, "skill caps? what do you mean, SR3 doesn't have skill caps!"

raising or removing the skill caps is one solution, but i don't think it would work very well in the long run. part of the reason i don't like SR4 is that at the high end, it's too easy to do hard things. removing the caps would exacerbate that issue even more.

this is a long discussion that can be cut short, unless people really, really want to discuss it. basically, the only solution to the cap problem that works to my personal satisfaction is to scrap the entire basis of SR4--the fixed TN mechanic--and go back to variable TNs.

Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 13 2007, 12:26 AM

I think I will skip that discussion.

Been there, done that.

Didn't find it worth the effort involved, specially as TPTB don't have any plans on changing the whole system.

Posted by: Farceseer Siranaul Mar 13 2007, 02:12 AM

Has any one thought of not allowing the awakened and technomancers to increase edge? Making the edge trait a mundane's speciality. Fluff-wise, awakened characters make their own luck with magic.

Posted by: Garrowolf Mar 13 2007, 02:13 AM

SR4 does have variable TNs. They are called Thresholds and dice pool penalties.

Posted by: Ravor Mar 13 2007, 02:31 AM

Um, Farceseer Siranaul, are you suggesting that Human Mages have Edge 1, or that they lose the bonus for being human?

Also would Mages be able to burn a point of Magic in order to pull a 'Hand of God'?

Still, personally I don't like it, but then again I don't think there is a problem with Mages vs Mundanes being unbalanced...

Posted by: Farceseer Siranaul Mar 13 2007, 02:36 AM

I only suggest they are unable to raise it by expending BP or karma. A human mage can still have an edge 2.

Posted by: Ravor Mar 13 2007, 02:42 AM

Hmm, not as bad as I first thought, but personally I still don't care for it...

Posted by: mfb Mar 13 2007, 02:52 AM

Posted by: DireRadiant Mar 13 2007, 03:01 AM

And then there are opposed tests... there's more then one dimension to the probability curve.

Posted by: Garrowolf Mar 13 2007, 10:57 AM

Alot of what was a penalty to TN became dice pool penalties. Then you have a threshold on top of that. Then you have less dice in your pool to work with in the first place. I think that the math would work out about the same. That hard roll shouldn't even have the 15 dice. I'm not saying that they are exact but it's not like we have a real world stats for all of this so one general guestimate is as good as another.

Posted by: mfb Mar 13 2007, 06:48 PM

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Mar 13 2007, 08:21 PM

Posted by: Konsaki Mar 13 2007, 08:31 PM

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Mar 13 2007, 08:51 PM

...in previous editions however there was both the Variable TN (that acted like a Threshold) and a Resistance test so the character in a sense had two "chances" then. Consider that most mundanes have an average of 3 WP which is (if they are lucky) only one hit. The spell will most likely still have an effect or do some damage unless it totally fizzles.

One limit would be to use only the Target's Unaugmented Attribute. This would keep it from getting too out of hand.

Posted by: Konsaki Mar 13 2007, 09:34 PM

But you have to remember, KK, that in 3rd all you had to do was roll 1 hit to actually hit and rolling a 6 with a dicepool of your magic + the magic pool wasnt hard at all.
Rolling 3-4 hits in SR4 just to actually have your spell land with a dicepool of 12 (6 magic + 6 skill), then having your target roll their stat again, god forbid they have a mage counterspelling them, would be a little bit of overkill. You would have mages burning edge just to cast a stunbolt, plus the fact that all spells would have to be, at minimum, the TN+1, so you are actually encuraging high force spells.

[Not a completed post]

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Mar 13 2007, 11:22 PM

...let's use an example.

My namesake in SR3 had a 6 Willpower. This meant an opposing mage needed to roll 6s to succeed. Of course this would normally limit the number of his or her successess since 6s come up less frequently than 4s. Ergo there is a good chance the spell does not stage up but does hit for base damage.

So, offending Mage with a magic of 6 & 6 Spell Pool casts a Force 6 Powerbolt at KK getting 2 successs which is still base damage. KK rolls her WP (6) against the spell's force & gets only 1 success taking a moderate wound effect (3 boxes) She now has -1 to reaction and all tests.

Now in let's take it to SR4. KK is hit by a mage with a magic of 6 casting a force 6 powerbolt (not hard for a beginning level character to have) The mage gets 4 hits on 12 dice (TN 5). She has a willpower DP of 4 (needing 5s as well) to soak the damage. She only gets 1 hit. The mage now has a net of 3 hits + the spell's force, leaving poor KK to take 9 blocks of damage. She now has -3 to all tests, - 3 to reaction and is only 1 block away from going down.

I would say magic needs nerfed a little. Just trying to find a more streamlined mechanic to handle it.

Posted by: Konsaki Mar 13 2007, 11:49 PM

I dont disagree with you, but using your example with your own suggested rules, which I like I might add, it would have a different outcome.

The mage gets 4 hits which is equal to your character's willpower, thereby meeting the Stat given 'Hits Required' TN. Since he just met the casting requirements, he does base damage of 6DV.
This is all well and good, no 9 damage, just 6.

Now this right here is why I would disallow any resistance rolls from the victim. KK now rolls her Will (4) and gets 1 hit. Now the mage who had 4 hits, which is good off of 12 dice and just barely hit the requirement for her willpower, now has a fully resisted spell.
Remember that this is a 6/6 mage we are talking about. In SR, thats pretty powerful.

I say, instead of letting the victim set the 'Hits Required' TN at their stat AND letting them resist, we dont let them roll resist but let Counterspelling take up the slack and make it more important.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Mar 14 2007, 12:29 AM

...but, depending if the team has a mage and the mage has counterspelling skill, makes this option too much of a variable.

To maybe better illustrate, if the Threshold of KK's WP is met and there are no net successes, the Spell's power still has it's effect on the target meaning KK would have to soak the remaining 6 hits with her WP. So, she gets her 1 hit and still takes a resultant of 5 blocks instead of 9.

This would be analogous to having to stage down the "base damage" of a spell in previous editions.

Posted by: Konsaki Mar 14 2007, 12:39 AM

Ok, so you soak like you would a bullet then instead of how magic rules are in RAW. I like that better too.

Thanks for clearing that up, I thought you were using RAW with your modded TN.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Mar 14 2007, 12:50 AM

Posted by: TheOOB Mar 14 2007, 01:08 AM

We allready know direct damage spells are overpowered, I think it would be a good step to balancing magicians to only allow indirect damage spells, or at least to give direct damage spells Drain equivelent to indirect damage spells, the direct damage spells would still be better in many circumstances.

Posted by: Garrowolf Mar 14 2007, 01:23 PM

The thing about having extreme shots is that I think that is the main reason to NOT have such high dice pools in the first place. An impossible shot shot should have almost no dice left and a high threshold. Only with edge could you take the shot at all.

The problem isn't the dice mechanic. The problem is that there is no sense of scale to these numbers. People are starting with inhumanly high numbers and don't realize it. There is no grittiness to this game because it is too easy to be too powerful.

Posted by: Konsaki Mar 14 2007, 01:57 PM

Off the top of my head, barring edge, I came up with 27 dice in the biggest Ranged attack pool.

12 - Agility + Elf + Pos Quality + Augmented
9 - Skill + Specialization + Pos Quality
2 - Smartlink
1 - Reflex Recorder
3 - Adept skill power

This is supposed to be the best of the best, but yeah, you can get it straight out of CharGen.

Edit: Removed 'Enhanced Articulation'

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Mar 14 2007, 02:01 PM

Enhanced Articulation is for Physical Skills, only, not for Combat Skills.

Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 14 2007, 02:14 PM

I am not sure if you can add in enhanced articulation. The description says physical skills linked to a physical attribute. There is a group of skills called Physical Active Skills, which does not include the combat active skills.

I can't remember off hand if this was addressed in the FAQ or elsewhere.

Posted by: Konsaki Mar 14 2007, 02:16 PM

Cool, thats a good thing in this situation then.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Mar 14 2007, 02:26 PM

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Mar 14 2007, 02:53 PM

...to further expand of the use of threshold vs. spells, this would only be for direct/indirect combat spells. Other spells, such as elemental manipulations (resisted with 1/2 impact armour + armour enhancements) or Transformation Manipulation spells (which already have an attribute threshold) would not be subject to this.

I am still working on some way to give a little edge against Mental Manipulations (which also tend to run roughshod over mundanes) as well since some of these spells only need one hit to be fully effective.

In my campaigns I have outrightly banned Mind Probe (Both for PCs and NPCs).

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Mar 14 2007, 03:03 PM

Hmmm, while I'm looking at maximum dice pools for shooting a gun, let's go down the list:
Adept elf: 26+ (the + is for the high-grade initiate adept)
Adept human: 24+ (10 att +10 skill +4 bonus)
Cybered mundane elf: 24 (12 att +8 skill +4 bonus)
Cybered mundane human: 22 (10 att +8 skill +4 bonus)
Uncybered mundane elf: 17 (8 att + 7skill +2bonus)
Uncybered mundane human (for "real world" comparison: 16 (7att +7skill +2 bonus)
Note the values for the cybered mundanes will approach the adept values if/when we get more than 1 bit of cyber/bio that falls within the skill cap, or if reflex recorders start coming in multiple levels.

Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 14 2007, 03:10 PM

Why ban Mind Probe?

It has a threshold of 4 to get all the information, the subject is usually aware of the probe (so passwords can be changed).

Every attempt at mind probe adds a 2 die penalty, cumulative.

It is not the answer to everything, as not feveryone will know everything.

Also, in my worlds, there is often deliberate misinformation spread, and not just to counter mind probe.

Posted by: mfb Mar 14 2007, 04:59 PM

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 14 2007, 05:32 PM

Just because it piqued my interest... isn't Powerbolt resisted with body, not willpower?

Posted by: Konsaki Mar 14 2007, 05:36 PM

You are correct, X.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Mar 14 2007, 05:40 PM

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Mar 14 2007, 05:41 PM

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 14 2007, 06:05 PM

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Mar 14 2007, 06:07 PM

I see your point about consistency, but you're not going to argue that, in SR3, Enhanced Articulation is not horrendously overpowered, are you?
I think the above SR4 interpretation makes it good, balanced, useful 'ware without making any character who doesn't get it a self-nerfing moron.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 14 2007, 06:15 PM

It's still a fairly expensive item for only a +1, and it doesn't even give bonus reaction anymore. If you're that vehement on it not adding to combat tests, I'd at the very least allow it to apply to technical tests/B&R tests.

Posted by: 2bit Mar 14 2007, 06:20 PM

well. . . it can still apply to gymnastics dodge

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 14 2007, 06:23 PM

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Mar 14 2007, 06:35 PM

Shadowing is linked to Intuition; doesn't apply.
According to the interpretation that Enhanced Articulation applies to skills in the Physical Active Skills group that are linked to Physical Attributes it gives +1 to 9 skills. They are:
Climbing, Diving, Escape Artist, Gymnastics, Infiltration, Palming, Parachuting, Running, and Swimming
36 BP worth of skills for 8BP worth of money and 0.3 essence.
Now I will freely admit that some of those skills are next to useless, but I still have a hard time seeing the argument that this bit of 'ware is underpowered.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Mar 14 2007, 07:35 PM

...I could also see it working with (non rigged) pilot skills.

Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 15 2007, 12:30 AM