Well after reeducating myself as to how mentor spirits work I've decided to take some of the advice that's been offered here
Mentor Spirit: Martyr-
The Great Spirit of the Martyr Lives to sacrifice of himself to help others, without any consideration for his own well being. He protects the innocent and despises slefishness, greed and cowerdice when the time to serve comes for he would sooner destroy himself than take advantage of an innocent. His favored children are any that protect others particulalrly at their own expense.
Common manifestations include examples of martyrs: from Jesus, to fallen heros and in some cases muslim suicide bombers.
Benifit +2 health and counter spelling.
Penalty: Whenever the mage wants to allow an innocent to suffer for his own gain in even the smallest way (like not giving a beggar change) He must always go out of his way to help or succeed in a willpower +charisma(3) test to ignore or take advantage of the Unfortunate soul.
I don't wish to be critical. The idea of a martyr mentor spirit is a good one. And Jesus is a shining example. But I disagree with the the inclusion of muslim suicide bombers as martyrs. The Koran is very specific in forbidding the murder of innocents. While I reluctantly see how you could include them under self-sacrifice, I don't see how you can reconcile it with the "helping others, unable to pass by a beggar" mindset. The two approachs of self-sacrifice are psychologically very different. I would remove that example.
Other than that, your spirit may be balanced, but it would depend a little too much on how the GM played it. Shadowrun is a dark world, and unless the magician is walking around with his eyes closed and never watches the news, I don't see how he couldn't be under constant Willpower + Charisma tests to avoid helping. As to innocents, what qualifies? The security guard one of your teammates has just shot? After all, he was just trying to do his job and protect his employers from thieves like the party. So is that another Willpower and Charisma test not to heal him?
I think it would take a fair bit of GM co-operation to make this work. At the least, you need to lower the threshold from 3 for the test as only strong minded people would pass it on average.
My opinion, anyway. Good idea, but still needs changing as the penalities are too strong.
It seems fine to me balance-wise but I doubt I'd include it in my own game. Phoenix can do plenty well for those wanting to focus on a martyr-like concept.
I definately understand your' point nasser and I certainly don't condone suicide bombers... in fact I'm very patriotic and I've long said the only good violent muslim radical is a dead one...however bare in mind that spirits have a warped and illogical sense of morality...they kind of help their follwers do what ever they want. If theythought like you or I very few of them would help shadow runners...but they still do. The fact of the matter however is muslim radicals certainly meet the criteria for the great martyr spirit. They sacrifice themselves for the good of all muslims as they see it. Evil though they may be they are certainly selfless, and while I certianly don't see martyr approaving of slaugtering innocent people they are still his followers and he probably wouldn't do more than act as a voice of reason to jamal islayma.
Also the 3 test is given for many sprits from wolf to sky father...3 is the threshold
However I don't see pheonix being anyhting like martyr...hes a spirit of creation and rebirth.
I agree with Knasser that suicide bombers don't fit into the concept of this mentor spirit as you have written it. They would be better as an example of the twisted way for this mentor spirit.
I'd agree that it could be a version of the twisted way. Islamic suicide bombers do what they do because their culture honors those to sacrifice themselves for a just cause. What most people in the West fail to realise is that when the state of Israel came into existence hundreds of thousands of palestinians were forced from their villages at gunpoint, in what can only be described as ethnic cleansing. After several decades and Israel ignoring countless UN resolutions the average palestinian doesn't care to differentiate between a soldier who keeps them off their land or the israeli civilian who lives on it. Under Islamic laws ethnic cleansing is one of the greatest forms of injustice and the average "martyr", in his own mind, simply is trying to correct past injustices.
| QUOTE (6thDragon) |
| I'd agree that it could be a version of the twisted way. |
| QUOTE |
| Islamic suicide bombers do what they do because their culture honors those to sacrifice themselves for a just cause. What most people in the West fail to realise is that when the state of Israel came into existence hundreds of thousands of palestinians were forced from their villages at gunpoint, in what can only be described as ethnic cleansing. After several decades and Israel ignoring countless UN resolutions the average palestinian doesn't care to differentiate between a soldier who keeps them off their land or the israeli civilian who lives on it. Under Islamic laws ethnic cleansing is one of the greatest forms of injustice and the average "martyr", in his own mind, simply is trying to correct past injustices. |
Of course it is considering that history is written by the winners...
Every country has it's own version of history. In America those who shead light on things like the Trail of Tears, or other treatment of Native Americans, Japanese struggles over WWII atrocities, China is beginning to reconsider a lot of chairman Mao's initiative like the Great Leap Forward, and the Israelis are beginning to own up to what they did in Palestine. Read "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Ilan Pappe. Considered to be an Israeli "revisionist historian". Eventually the truth comes out.
Islam does honour those who sacrifice themselves for others. It also contains strong prohibitions against suicide and the murder of innocents. I think most muslims remain against it, though for obvious reasons over the last five years, the clerics have become more tolerant of it in situations like Iraq and Israel. I condemn it without reservation, but I don't think it is wrong to understand it. A British MP last year (Jenny Tong) said that "if she lived in palestine then she'd probably become a suicide bomber" and was promptly sacked by the party leader for it. It's that sort of intolerance of empathy or understanding that I object to. And I think the witch hunt on that MP was because there is so much injustice there, and to understand the people who are driven to such misguided acts requires acknowledging that.
I'm also realising as I write, how generic and ignorant the term "suicide bomber" is, as if the label fully describes anyone. This isn't directed at anyone here on the boards, but everytime the media slap that label on someone, it seems as though it is an end to discussion and we know everything. Why did someone kill themself and others like that? Oh, they were a 'suicide bomber.' If one person alone did such an act, there would be articles about why they did it, and invesitgation into their background, their life, what drove them to it. But all we get is "suicide bomber" as some people just happen to be one.
Anyway, back to the mentor spirit, there is a great difference between self-sacrifice out of love, and self-sacrifice out of hatred. Hence my concern over putting both Jesus and a suicide bomber. You could use the latter as the twisted way path though, as it's is certainly misguieded enough.
| QUOTE (limejello) |
| Also the 3 test is given for many sprits from wolf to sky father...3 is the threshold |
well to be fair kicking someone off "their" land isn't ethnic clensing...ethnic clesning is when you intentionally wipe out an ethnic group, and while I admit israel has gotten careless there is a big difference from a muslim that's killed by a stray peice of sharnapnel from a missile aimed at a terrorist leader and an isrealy blown up in an attack on a supermarket.) I also can't help but notice you have no problem with the muslims invading and conquering it during the dark ages and and butchering the jews (and don't bring up saladin cause this was before his time).
-and please don't assume I'm ignorant just because I hate my enemy. It doesn't mean I don't undertand him. Suicide bomber is an accurate description that doesn't take away from any kind of understaning of their motives. In fact I hate the violent muslim radicals (whom I realize do not represent the majority of muslims) because I understand them. (and being an american I never heard that story...but it sounds like that mp deserved a whitch hunt...I could understand if she were speaking in a role reversel Ie "I would fight the muslim radicals if they invaded my england" but anyone who defends the killing of their countrymen by thei nations enemies does not belong in office.) I still do defend the muslim sucide bomber (and think I should have included kamikaze pilots too) example because despite what they're martyring themselves for...they are martyrs.
knasser, I'm not so sure that a spirit would care or even notice the difference between self sacrifice for love or hate, or what is more likely so strange combination of the two. And the reasoning is thus;
It isn't considered toxic or even twisted (And as far as I can tell, in 4th twisted just seems to be code for something that the devs thought too many people would find distasteful.) to destroy a polluting power plant or refinary in the middle of winter despite what the cost in life would be. In fact I don't think anyone would ever question whether the shaman in question did so out of love for the enviroment or hate towards those that despoil mother Gia.
Pesonally I consider the line between normal/twisted and toxic to be where the end results become so twisted upon themselves that you can no longer tell what they used to be, such as protecting the 'new' enviroment of pollution, ect... So in this case a 'toxic' Martyr would be someone who decided to sacrifice himself by putting the people he was 'saving' out of their misery.
However, I do agree that the flaw does need some work unless the OP envisions the follows of Martyr as becoming squatters themselves and living amongst 'thier people'.
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limejello10512, you might want to check the defination of ethnic cleansing sometime.
| CODE |
| ethnic cleansing One entry found. ethnic cleansing Main Entry: ethnic cleansing Function: noun Date: 1991 : the expulsion, imprisonment, or killing of an ethnic minority by a dominant majority in order to achieve ethnic homogeneity |
limejello10512 You might want to re-check your history. The Jews were initially expelled from what is present day Israel, by the Roman Empire in 70AD, and I believe Arabs had nothing to do with it. You appear to have a very strong anti-Arab view, so I'll put very little effort into changing your opinions. I consider myself to be at least an amateur authority on Middle Eastern history; it played a large part on my field of study during my undergraduate work. However, with that said, I may be slightly biased too because my wife is Arab and I have a very keen understanding of their culture and history. Also, don't forget the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_tigers were the ones who developed the modern tactic of suicide bombing. They are neither Arab nor Muslim. They're just in a part of the world that doesn't appear in the media very often.
However, with all that out of the way, when I think of someone who would follow Martyr as a mentor, I don't think material possessions would be a major concern to them. Ravor, expressed some concern with them being overgenerous to the point to living in poverty themselves; which is about how I see them also. I don't think many PCs would take this as a Mentor, but it would be appropriate for certain NPCs.
| QUOTE (limejello10512 @ Mar 13 2007, 05:16 PM) |
| -and please don't assume I'm ignorant just because I hate my enemy. It doesn't mean I don't undertand him. |
The problem is:
martyr
1: a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion
2: a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle
Well the description (and shadowrun in general) pretty much pulls religion out from mentor spirits, so the first definition is not generally applicable.
The second could apply, ACCEPT the very principal defined is helping others. Now if you changed it to:
| QUOTE |
The Great Spirit of the Martyr Lives to sacrifice of himself to help his cause, without any consideration for his own well being. He protects his cause and despises those that harm his cause when the time to serve comes for he would sooner destroy himself than weaken his cause. |
| QUOTE (limejello10512) |
| in fact I'm very patriotic and I've long said the only good violent muslim radical is a dead one... |
I hesistate to post for fear of being flamed to death, but I will open my mouth to attempt to add some balance to the debate this seems to have become..
| QUOTE (Ravor; Mar 14 2007 @ 06:34 PM) |
| Main Entry: ethnic cleansing Function: noun Date: 1991 : the expulsion, imprisonment, or killing of an ethnic minority by a dominant majority in order to achieve ethnic homogeneity |
| QUOTE (6thDragon; Mar 14 2007 @ 07:18 PM) |
| limejello10512 {..snip..}..You appear to have a very strong anti-Arab view |
| QUOTE (limejello10512; Mar 13 2007 @ 05:16 PM) |
| In fact I hate the violent muslim radicals (whom I realize do not represent the majority of muslims) |
| QUOTE (laughingowl; Mar 14 2007 @ 07:45 PM) |
| When written that: "He protects the innocent and despises slefishness, greed and cowerdice when the time to serve comes for he would sooner destroy himself than take advantage of an innocent" That would pretty much rule out any situation where you are harming those you do not 100% know are 'guility'. While sucide bombers MAY be martyr (depending on why and your personal beliefs of why/what they did), 'The Great Spirit of the Martyr' as written by the OP could never tolerate a sucide bomber since they very very likely are going to harm innocents. |
| QUOTE (Redjack) |
| Ok, I don't want to be painted on either side but if you're gonna pick on someone's choice of words..... I don't think the Israeli's are in anyway a majority in the middle east. |
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Ah, but if you noticed I didn't bring up the defination until limejello10512 tried to claim that someone who was using the word correctly was wrong. |
| QUOTE (Ravor; Mar 14 2007 @ 08:39 PM) |
| Although I am left wondering what the proper term is when a small but more powerful minority |
| QUOTE |
| So unless I missed some really big news item today and that relatively low-grade conflict really flared up into major regional |
| QUOTE (Redjack) |
| Sorry, but I have to disagree. The arabs/muslims are far from an ethnic minority and the Isaelies/jews are far from a dominant majority in the region. |
| QUOTE (Redjack) |
| Ok, you gave me that one... |
| QUOTE (Redjack) |
| The conflict is in fact a regional conflict... Perhaps you've missed the involvement of Syria and Hezbollah (Lebanon), the tunnels bringing weapons in from Egypt or the influence of Iran? |
| QUOTE (Redjack) |
| Now if we want to talk about a stated goal of dominant majority in order to achieve ethnic homogeneity, we can just add Iran to this conversation... but I digress. |
Just as a side note to the quote of "the winners write history", American soldiers during WW2 threw babies against walls just like the big bad Nazis did. We committed just as many atrocities, without including the Holocaust, as they did. We had "detainment" camps and we also were allies too the biggest butcher of Jews in WW2, Stalin. So, yeah, the victors do re-write history.
| QUOTE (limejello10512) |
| well to be fair kicking someone off "their" land isn't ethnic clensing...ethnic clesning is when you intentionally wipe out an ethnic group, and while I admit israel has gotten careless there is a big difference from a muslim that's killed by a stray peice of sharnapnel from a missile aimed at a terrorist leader and an isrealy blown up in an attack on a supermarket.) |
| QUOTE (limejello) |
| I also can't help but notice you have no problem with the muslims invading and conquering it during the dark ages and and butchering the jews (and don't bring up saladin cause this was before his time). |
| QUOTE |
| and please don't assume I'm ignorant just because I hate my enemy. It doesn't mean I don't undertand him. |
| QUOTE |
| anyone who defends the killing of their countrymen by thei nations enemies does not belong in office.) |
| QUOTE |
I still do defend the muslim sucide bomber (and think I should have included kamikaze pilots too) example because despite what they're martyring themselves for...they are martyrs. |
All this is fine and dandy, but this is a thread about a game. Could we actually get back on topic here?
Personally, I think that laughingowl's revision comes closer to the author's original intent, if the mentor spirit is intended to be inclusive of things such as suicide bombers without classifying them as twisted way.
I'll put a question out there. Anyone think this would be a fun mentor spirit to actually have for a character, or is it more likely to be the sole province of NPCs?
Well I wouldn't use it with any PC that I built, but I can see it making for an interesting NPC.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| Personally, I think that laughingowl's revision comes closer to the author's original intent, if the mentor spirit is intended to be inclusive of things such as suicide bombers without classifying them as twisted way. I'll put a question out there. Anyone think this would be a fun mentor spirit to actually have for a character, or is it more likely to be the sole province of NPCs? |
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