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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Infirm Flaw
Posted by: Sphynx Nov 3 2003, 05:43 PM
Ok, after careful consideration of past character growths, and karma expenditures, mixed with the recent poll that only a rare character gets past 50 karma... I've decided that Infirm is by far the most exploitable flaw.
Unless you max an attribute at char gen past the racial modified limit, you're probably never going to raise an attribute past the modified limit. This means, you can take the 3 point infirm and not suffer at all from it (notice, this flaw caps Maximum, not Modified Racial).
I noticed this today while perusing our group's Shaman who's an Albino Gnome with Exceptional Attribute: Willpower (lotsa those in Seattle, eh?). He has 5 levels of this flaw and a Body of 6. 
Ok, so he can only ever have a Quickness over 4, but he's never going to be interested in raising it above that score anyhows.
5 point flaw as a dwarf and still gets to have a 6 in Body and Strength as a starting character. Man... why didn't I think of that?
Ok, done Ranting about the flaw, I'll just note down to take it if I ever make a new character instead of flaws that actually hinder me.
PS... Yes, I realize that if a flaw doesn't hinder you shouldn't get points for it.
Sphynx
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 3 2003, 05:46 PM
I agree its very open to abuse. Which is why the only time i've taken it i made it limit my stats to 242.
But as the Gm you have the right to say no.
Posted by: Siege Nov 3 2003, 05:47 PM
Technically, any flaw can be abused or "blunted" so it doesn't cut as deeply.
The edges/flaws section is interesting but has a "half-finished" feel to it (IMHO).
-Siege
Posted by: spotlite Nov 3 2003, 06:01 PM
I dunno, I've never really had any characters abuse their flaws, but then most of ours tend to take flaws that have an ongoing affect anyway, which can bite them in the ass, like phobias and allergies (mainly pollutant allergies - and I make them pay for that one, beleive me, but they keep taking it because its likely. Mostly it sets off their asthma mid run...)
The infirm flaw does indeed look bad. But when they want to augment themselves remember bioware can only take you to your attribute Max, not over it. And make them have a good backstory you can exploit as to why, as well - it says that it represents their deteriorating physical condition, such as couch potato mages or deckers not necessarily age or illness. Well, if they don't lie around doing nothing, or abuse themselves with drugs and gluttony, then they don't really have this flaw, do they? Or they actually are old or sick - either of which can have other penalties or side effects.
And if they change their lifestyle so the condition causing the flaw goes away, remove the flaw! But remember that if you do that you're supposed to replace it with one or more with a total comparable value. A 5 point flaw you say...? Well, lets take a look and see what fits... I defy you not to find at least half a dozen suitable flaws which could've been brought on by roleplay encounters - maybe they now suffer a debilitating fear of devil rats after that run in the sewers last week? Or a combination of devil rat phobia and claustraphobia? Two for the price of one!
Mmmm... greedy players... better than donuts...
Posted by: Elfie Nov 3 2003, 06:15 PM
I don't see anything not feasible about taking the infirm flaw as a human. My decker has Infirm -2, which makes it so My physical attributes max out at 4. If 3 is supposed to be 'average' then I don't see this as being an abused flaw if it fits the character. Sure I'm never going to be a world class powerlifter or world record sprinter, so 4 seems like a decent number for a decker in physical stats. I don't think it's as bad as people who take a Charisma of 1 if they're just being the muscle of the group...
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 3 2003, 06:18 PM
You might want to reread the flaw Elfie,
It effects your attribute max's not the race max's so as a human you have a race max of 6 with attirbute max of 7
[edit]
The only time it effects the race max is if the Attribute max is lower than the race max, example
a character with the stats of 4(6) due to being an Otaku with a lvl 4 infirm flaw ends up with this 2(2)
Note you don't need to be Otaku for this to happen, it just makes easier to see how it happens[/edit]
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 3 2003, 06:25 PM
If your runners don't make much use of bioware, then yes, it's abuseable. Personally, in my experience unless they're going the cyberware route people tend to start loading up on muscle toners and suchlike once they get the nuyen to spare.
Sensitive Neural Structure, now there's an abuseable flaw...
~J
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 3 2003, 06:33 PM
Again only if your not a Decker, Rigger or Otaku. Which granted is like the least common types of characters but hey it's another reason Why Gm's need a good back bone. There are a couple of others out there Day job as an example, I see it more of a merit than a flaw, more so at the lower levels.
Posted by: Sphynx Nov 3 2003, 06:44 PM
Or if you're any magic user, especially a dwarven one who can take 5 levels of that flaw and suffer only a reduced Quickness from it. So, pretty much over half the possible character types could take multiple levels of this without it ever effecting their character's advancement plan.
Sphynx
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 3 2003, 06:50 PM
Sphynx i was refering to Sensitive Neural Structure, but your agrument is true for infirm.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 3 2003, 06:51 PM
Riggers, deckers, and Otaku have in my experience often been the ones most interested in physical attribute-enhancing bioware. Patch up a massive weakness without having to spend any karma on it? Sounds good! Admittedly an Otaku who doesn't plan to spend any karma on physical attributes can take a single point of the flaw for free, as the max level of toners/etc. is 4, but a single build point seems like a fairly minor problem, given that you get two points for a minor uncommon allergy.
~J
edit: Shockwave, I see what you mean, and you've got a point.
Posted by: El_Machinae Nov 4 2003, 03:06 AM
Spotlite, that's a pretty good idea. If the characters stop acting like they're infirm, or if they stop living an infirm life-style, then saddle them with another flaw. I like it.
Posted by: The Jopp Nov 4 2003, 08:33 AM
One solution to the problem could be to make the flaw a “flaw” instead of a bonus point. A normal metahuman “human” attribute maximum would be 6+3 if they have a -3 Infirm flaw it would become 6+0. Here’s the solution. Normally a character is allowed to begin the game with up to 6+ racial modifiers to their attributes or modified by bio/cyber. Whenever they have an infirm flaw they also lower their Racial Modified Limit and therefore CANNOT begin with the game with an attribute of 6 AND have a 3 point flaw. The flaw will instead lower BOTH the Attribute Maximum and Racial Modified Limit.
A character with a 3 point flaw would have an Attribute Maximum of 3+3 (6) and the Racial Modified Limit would become 3. A character with a5 point flaw would have an max of 1+3 (4) and cannot begin the game with a higher attribute than 1. Thus the character cannot begin by maxing out his attribute and take the flaw.
Is this logical or am I waffling? 
EDIT: Say, can Otaku with physical attributes of 1 take this flaw at all?
Posted by: DigitalMage Nov 4 2003, 11:32 AM
I have to say I have always read the flaw as limiting the racial modified limit (or whatever it is called) i.e. with -3 Infirm flaw a character cannot have an attribute above 3.
However I have never used the rules that allow a character to go above the 6 + racial modifiers. To me that was always a silly thing to do, they set up in 1st Edition a range of human maximums i.e. 1 to 6 and base teh game around that, then they go and extend that range to 1 to 9 without changing other stuff.
IMHO The Exceptional Attribute edge should be the only way to go above 6 for a human.
Maybe to rectify the flaw have Infirm effectively reduce the racial and attribute max, e.g. Human without flaw can increase attribute up to 6 points, after that they may be more Karma and increase to 9.
With a -2 Infirm Flaw thsi changes to 4/6.
Posted by: Sphynx Nov 4 2003, 11:52 AM
Oddly enough DigiMage, despite being in a 200+ karma game, I've never once seen anyone want to take an attribute above the Racial Modified Limit, except with Bioware. It's just too expensive. So there was no need to change the other-stuff when allowing players to exceed racial limits.
Anyhows..... tons of way to House Rule it, but for those of you who like to find abuseable flaws... this is one nice one to get away with. 
Personally, if I House Rule it, I'm going to keep it around, and reduce the MaxAttribute by 2 for every level taken instead of by 1.
Sphynx
Posted by: Lilt Nov 4 2003, 11:57 AM
By the rules; this flaw can give a no-disadvantage bonus to non-combat characters.
Then-again: sensitive neural structure or bio-rejection give bonuses to characters who will never take cyber/bioware, and in theory a non-combat character could take Total Pacifist and get 5 points for it. Broken or what?
OK: all of the above limit the character in certan ways, with infirm being a slightly better tradeoff in most cases, but -1 point per rank against racially modified limit is a terrible tradeoff. Maybe having a set of -1 point flaws that perform the opposite effects of the exceptional attribute edges?
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2003, 01:36 PM
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| EDIT: Say, can Otaku with physical attributes of 1 take this flaw at all? |
Yes, but it would be utterly crippling unless they plan to spend the rest of their lives in a small, heavily-armored box.
~J
Posted by: The Jopp Nov 4 2003, 01:43 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||
Yes, but it would be utterly crippling unless they plan to spend the rest of their lives in a small, heavily-armored box. ~J |
Crippling? They would have a physical attribute of -1 if they took the five point flaw. Let's see, they start at 1 and have a racial maximum of 4. If they took a five point flaw they would have a racial maximum of -1. A character with an attribute of 0 is dead isn't he?
Dunno, an Otaku with Infirm -5 flaw might as well take the Quadriplegic flaw as well.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2003, 01:50 PM
They aren't dead, they're just in a coma, IIRC.
~J
Posted by: tisoz Nov 4 2003, 04:21 PM
Can a shapeshifter take this flaw for each set of physical stats?
Posted by: Kurukami Nov 4 2003, 04:23 PM
| QUOTE (Sphynx @ Nov 3 2003, 05:43 PM) |
| I noticed this today while perusing our group's Shaman who's an Albino Gnome with Exceptional Attribute: Willpower (lotsa those in Seattle, eh?). He has 5 levels of this flaw and a Body of 6. Ok, so he can only ever have a Quickness over 4, but he's never going to be interested in raising it above that score anyhows. 5 point flaw as a dwarf and still gets to have a 6 in Body and Strength as a starting character. Man... why didn't I think of that? |
Um... just a strange thing, but doesn't the Infirm flaw lower ALL of the Physical Attributes' maximums at the same time for a -1 Flaw? Thus the aforementioned gnome (whose metarace, I seem to recall, has +1 Body, +1 Strength, +2 Willpower) who would normally have a Body and Strength max of ((6+1)*1.5) = 10, would have a max of 5. That's including the racial bonus.
Said PC is a cheating munchkin if he's trying to get away with Strength and Body of 6.
Personally, I've always seen the Infirm flaw played as that it lowered both the regular racial limit and the racial maximum. Otherwise, the Flaw is definitely way the hell too effective and scarcely limits a PC at all.
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 4 2003, 04:33 PM
Actually Kurukami you round up you attributes max's so its 11-5 =6 so it's legal to the letter of the flaw, Tho i do agree on them being a bit munchkin
Posted by: Sphynx Nov 4 2003, 04:33 PM
P 245 of the BBB (SR3) Max is 11 Body/Strength for a Gnome. 11-5 = 6. They round Up for Max's.
And yes, the flaw is worth way too many points. Hence the thread
Sphynx
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2003, 04:37 PM
No, it really isn't, especially when you consider the last phase of character creation: GM approval. If the flaw isn't making the character flawed, you slap the player, burn the sheet, and wait for their next character.
Someone going to claim that a max quickness of 4 isn't pretty damaging?
~J
Posted by: Kurukami Nov 4 2003, 04:41 PM
For a shaman who's probably got mostly magical skills, armor spells, and a sustaining focus to support his "increased reflexes" spell? No. Not that damaging.
*sfft* *sfft* Damned cheap lighter... now how'm I going to incinerate said player's sheet? 
Posted by: Bearclaw Nov 4 2003, 05:23 PM
So many people seem to interpret statements based on what makes for the best power gaming.
The flaw is obviously affecting the maximum stat you can start with. Otherwise it would be useless and stupid. The only way you can see it otherwise is if you think path of the mage phys-ads should get two stinking points of magic every time they initiate.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2003, 05:35 PM
| QUOTE (Bearclaw) |
| The flaw is obviously affecting the maximum stat you can start with. |
Which is why it expressly says it subtracts from the racial max rather than the racial modified limit.
~J
Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 4 2003, 05:43 PM
| QUOTE (Bearclaw) |
| So many people seem to interpret statements based on what makes for the best power gaming. |
While others prefer to talk out of their ass, speaking in total ignorance of the subject matter.
Posted by: Rev Nov 4 2003, 05:47 PM
I think it is just a case of 2nd edition wording getting screwed up by a terminology change for third edition.
2nd didnt have all this 'racial modified limit' 'attribute maximum' stuff did it? I think maximum was just the maximum for your race (ie 6 for humans) and there was no second limit to worry about.
So the flaw was written for 2nd edition and when they converted the companion for third they failed to change the word leaving a loophole for munchkins.
It is a minor error.
Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 4 2003, 05:49 PM
If it's a typo, why do they go out of their way to include mechanics based around the new limits? It's rather specific in stating what it reduces and how this affects the other limit. It's designed to work the way it does, and while it might be a big munchkin loophole, that's where the GM's approval comes in.
[edit]Rather, while you can go out of your way to claim it shouldn't work the way it says it works, it is pretty clearly intentional that it works that way.[/edit]
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 4 2003, 05:51 PM
Ok for those who still don't get it.
| QUOTE ( SR3 pg 244) |
It is possible for characters to improve their attributes to a rating higher than their Racial Modified Limit, up to their Attribute Maximum. A characters Attribute Maximum is equal to their Racial Modified Limit times 1.5. ( see Racial Attribute Limit Table p.245) |
So quite clearly put Attribute Maximum is the higher of the 2 scores.
| QUOTE (SComp pg 20) |
The Infiirm Flaw may range from -1 to -5 points. For every infirm point, reduce the Attribute Maximum of the characters Physical Attributes by 1. |
Sorry but it seems pretty difinative to me.
But like most things it's stupid and useless if take by the "wrong" character.
A single phys stat reduced to a max of 4 not being a bad thing? no it's not a bad thing. It becomes hurting when combined with other equally restricted and low phys stats.
Posted by: Bearclaw Nov 4 2003, 06:03 PM
| QUOTE (The Frumious Bandersnatch) | ||
While others prefer to talk out of their ass, speaking in total ignorance of the subject matter. |
Do I know you? Did I insult you?
While you may have felt insulted by what I said, it wasn't an attack on you. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.
Posted by: spotlite Nov 4 2003, 06:09 PM
I agree with ShockwaveIIc. Its pretty clear - it does it to ALL physical attributes. And that really can be a problem if they take too many levels of it.
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 4 2003, 06:12 PM
Spotlite
Must be something about being british
Posted by: Bearclaw Nov 4 2003, 06:55 PM
I actually re-read it, and it's pretty clear. Silly, but clear. Seriously, how much is limiting your deckers max stats to 6 really worth? It gets you the same amount of points as having +3 to all target numbers for all social skills, or having a 40 hour a week day job.
Anyway, as written it's not really a usable flaw, and I'm glad none of my players have tried to sneak it by me. Although one tried to get sea madness past me 
Posted by: Sphynx Nov 4 2003, 07:15 PM
More importantly, while I show an extreme (dwarf with -5 and str/bod cap of 6 with a qui cap of 4), it is the EASIEST 3-point flaw to take. How many people take their stats up post-character-creation beyond their Modified Limit? In our 9-group, 200+ karma game, not a single person has done that. It's just too damn expensive. So, regardless of the character you make, unless youstarting with Bioware that helps you exceed your Modified Limit in a Physical stat, it's a free 3BP to 90% of the characters.
Sphynx
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2003, 08:13 PM
Then it's a game-to-game thing. We almost never see physical stats taken past RML, but bioware augmentation past that is very frequent.
~J
Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 4 2003, 10:11 PM
| QUOTE (Bearclaw) | ||||
Do I know you? Did I insult you? While you may have felt insulted by what I said, it wasn't an attack on you. I'd appreciate the same courtesy. |
While you may have felt insulted by what I said, it wasn't an attack on you. Just a general comment about the forums in general.
| QUOTE |
| More importantly, while I show an extreme (dwarf with -5 and str/bod cap of 6 with a qui cap of 4), it is the EASIEST 3-point flaw to take. How many people take their stats up post-character-creation beyond their Modified Limit? In our 9-group, 200+ karma game, not a single person has done that. It's just too damn expensive. So, regardless of the character you make, unless youstarting with Bioware that helps you exceed your Modified Limit in a Physical stat, it's a free 3BP to 90% of the characters. |
As far as I know, Infirm has long been known by a harmless flaw; your discovery is anything but groundbreaking. But it's no different than several of the other pointless flaws like Vindictive or a non-cybered mage taking Jack Itch or Simsense Vertigo. If you just don't feel like house ruling a solution for them or cutting them out of your game completely, there's not much else you can do.
Personally, if it ever came up I'd house rule it so that it affected your Racial Modified Limit (and thus your Attribute Max indirectly) instead. Why they did it the way they did it is completely baffling, but there's no point trying to prove how worthless it is when it's so blatantly obvious.
Posted by: spotlite Nov 4 2003, 10:17 PM
| QUOTE (The Frumious Bandersnatch) |
| it's no different than several of the other pointless flaws like Vindictive |
Are you playing the same vindictive flaw as I am? that's a REALLY bad one to have. The number of teams I've run that've gotten themselves in real trouble because one character has hatched an elaborate and risky plan to get vengeance on someone is at a 100% hit ratio at one time or other. Its not just the people you fight, its everyone who wrongs you, from the traffic cop who gives you a ticket to the ganger who gives you lip down the local sim parlour. And what about the johnsons who screw you over? "that slag's got it coming...."
I agree with the other stuff you said, but I think I have to disagree with you just on that one admittedly very minor point.
Posted by: Siege Nov 4 2003, 10:43 PM
To tweak this discussion:
How would you modify the "day job" flaw and still keep it a legitimate flaw?
-Siege
Posted by: spotlite Nov 4 2003, 11:01 PM
fire them when they don't meet commitments and have lots of time off sick to get healed and so on.
Give them an IRS audit (hey, they have a SIN and pay taxes, right?),
Make them come up with a background story and then slap them with it at every opportunity.
Have someone at work follow him around stalker style and make them paranoid
Have a cop wander into their place of work on other business (stopping off for lunch, investigating a crime whatever) and recognise them from an APB
Have the firm approach them for a job which they can't pay for because the firm's going under. They've found out somehow or suspect they can do 'shady' things and want them to do x so that the firm can stay open and the runner can keep his job.
Just some ideas. Remember if a player loses a flaw they are supposed to take a similarly valued one. Just rack em up something relevant and carry on using it, like you should do with all your player's flaws. If they wanna take 'em, they have to pay for 'em. The point is it doesn't need editing really. Just creative management!
Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 4 2003, 11:07 PM
Day job? Leave it as-is but just impose the reality of it. What if the team gets offered a sweet job out of town? What if the PC has to lay low for a bit? Enforce a 9-5 type schedule on the character, etc, and make it strict. If the PC gets fired, he has to buy off the flaw for level x 10 karma, after all. Or the GM gets to stick him with a different flaw of an equal value of his choosing. It's no easy task...
That said, I'd probably break the flaw into two parts, one an edge and the other a flaw. The time commitment is a flaw, of course, and the income is an edge. Something like:
Time Constraints
The character has to be somewhere for a set amount of time per week. The amount of time is determined by the value of the flaw.
-2 points = 10 hours/week
-4 points = 20 hours/week
-6 points = 40 hours/week
Steady Income
The character has a steady income from a legit source. This may be an inheretence or a part time job.
1 point = 1000 
/month
2 points = 2500 /month
3 points = 5000 /month
Posted by: Siege Nov 4 2003, 11:08 PM
What if it's a part-time gig or something under the table?
-Siege
Edit: Given the massive amounts of SINless, basically little more than illegals today, such jobs wouldn't be uncommon.
And let's face it: with an APB out on you, if you get busted flipping burgers you _deserve_ to get caught.
Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 4 2003, 11:12 PM
I thought of that but didn't want to bother with adding in the modifiers. If the work is part time, probably halve the point gain from the flaw. If the money is illicit, subtract a point from the edge. That means you can get 1000 for 0 points if it's from an illegal source... but keep in mind that you're vulnerable because of it. What happens when the Star comes looking for you because of it? Is it worth 1000 a month?
Posted by: Sphynx Nov 4 2003, 11:15 PM
| QUOTE (The Frumious Bandersnatch) | ||
As far as I know, Infirm has long been known by a harmless flaw; your discovery is anything but groundbreaking. But it's no different than several of the other pointless flaws like Vindictive or a non-cybered mage taking Jack Itch or Simsense Vertigo. If you just don't feel like house ruling a solution for them or cutting them out of your game completely, there's not much else you can do. Personally, if it ever came up I'd house rule it so that it affected your Racial Modified Limit (and thus your Attribute Max indirectly) instead. Why they did it the way they did it is completely baffling, but there's no point trying to prove how worthless it is when it's so blatantly obvious. |
Vindictive is a pain in the ass to take, play in a real game.
JackItch and Simsense Vertigo are easy to disallow because of a lack of cyberware. You can only take flaws that can hinder you.
Infirm 'can' hinder anyone. It's just less likely, but a GM can't hide behind a 'you aren't flawed by it' because he doesn't know how you'd like to advance. He can only House Rule something because it's potentially abuseable.
Lastly, it is groundbreaking for me (who thought it was modified limit) and obviously if you read the thread, by alot of other people on this forum, so be a bit less condescending.
Sphynx
Posted by: Siege Nov 4 2003, 11:21 PM
Part time jobs runners wouldn't be caught alive doing:
Stripping
bouncer
freelance muscle
PI (much harder to pull off and requires a certain legal presence)
dealer (drugs, BTLs)
freelance cutter (Biotech)
freelance gear freak (B/R skills)
courier
day laborer
Entertainment labor (unloading trucks, moving gear, setting up stages and so on)
The only real drawback that I could think of: if the character doesn't put the time against the job, no paycheck for the month.
And the more time missed, the greater the chance of not getting another call later since a lot of these jobs require a certain amount of presence.
Although the GM has complete license to add complications from work which can make for great blue-book material.
-Siege
Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 4 2003, 11:25 PM
| QUOTE (Sphynx @ Nov 4 2003, 05:15 PM) |
| Vindictive is a pain in the ass to take, play in a real game. Lastly, it is groundbreaking for me (who thought it was modified limit) and obviously if you read the thread, by alot of other people on this forum, so be a bit less condescending. |
Your words would have had a lot more impact if not for your initial sentence.
I just find this thread humorous because you've mentioned it a few times in the past on the older boards, yet act as if it was a marvelous discovery of yours just now. What can I say, I loathe that kind of mentality. If it's so "easy to disallow" certain flaws, I don't see why you have an apparent mental block in disallowing others. If you don't want to do it and just whine about how broken it is, that's certainly your perogative, though.
In any case, regarding Day Job, the problem with that one is that it's a "flaw" that actually gives benefits. The best way to fix it in my opinion is to turn it into a non-valued Edge (each level is self-balancing; more hours worked, more free money). This way, you don't really have to worry about enforcing it too much as long as they put in the effort to keep up their required hours, and it's still limiting because it would could as an Edge, thus limiting the number of other Edges (five max) you can take.
Edit: And I still stand by my comment about Vindicitve as far as the rules mechanics are concerned. Yes, a good GM can and will use it as the flaw it is, but by the rules themselves, it's a "free" two point "Flaw." The same logic you're using to say that it's a "real" Flaw can be used for any other flaws, Infirm and Day Job included. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. If you're going to use GM judgement for solving one of them, you have to accept it for the other, too.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2003, 11:38 PM
I leave Day Job as it is, but for anything more than the one-point flaw I enforce a strict schedule. 1-point Day Job can be odd hours at a bar or something, but that still does nasty things to long-term runs or runs out-of-city; with two and over, there are some times when you simply can not run unless you want to lose your job and face the wrath of the GM. Day Job is only broken if the GM is too lazy to enforce it (as I have been on occasion, I admit, but that doesn't mean it isn't easy to enforce).
~J
Posted by: Siege Nov 4 2003, 11:45 PM
I'll give you that one: it would be pretty tough to fly-by-night anything more than 1k a month.
Although it's not impossible: a rigger who free-lances on the side could probably manage that kind of money. A motivated car thief might, although I don't know what the pay scale is for chopping hot cars.
Deckers hacking smaller businesses is another possibility.
A covert ops specialist who breaks into warehouses and steals high-end electronics has potential...
Although the GM would have to make a chart for "nasty, unexpected stuff happens". It would really suck if a rigger lost his tricked car/van/chopper for a measly 5k. 
-Siege
Posted by: Tanka Nov 4 2003, 11:47 PM
The GM is, and always will be, the final call on all characters. They get to look over 'ware, toys, Edges, and Flaws. If they don't like the fact that they took "Infirm" and they know it won't be enforced, they can simply tell the player to pick a different Flaw. Either the player does so or doesn't play.
Game mechanics are only broken if you let them be.
Posted by: BitBasher Nov 4 2003, 11:51 PM
My rule of thumb as a GM: if a flaw isn't going to be a flaw then don't pick it.
Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 4 2003, 11:52 PM
| QUOTE (The Frumious Bandersnatch @ Nov 4 2003, 07:25 PM) |
| [Edit: And I still stand by my comment about Vindicitve as far as the rules mechanics are concerned. Yes, a good GM can and will use it as the flaw it is, but by the rules themselves, it's a "free" two point "Flaw." The same logic you're using to say that it's a "real" Flaw can be used for any other flaws, Infirm and Day Job included. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. If you're going to use GM judgement for solving one of them, you have to accept it for the other, too. |
There are far more flaws than not that fit into this specification. If the GM doesn't bother to enforce the flaws, a LOT of flaws are free points, including:
Incompetence
Computer Illiterate
Allergy
Color Blind
Infirm
Amnesia
Flashbacks
Phobia
Sea Legs
Sea Madness
Sensitive Neural Structure
Simsense Vertigo
Vindictive
Braggart
Dark Secret
Day Job
Dependant
Distinctive Style
Extra Enemy
Spirit Bane
Jack Itch
Gremlins
Hunted
Mysterious Cyberware
That's 24 of 56 flaws which require some GM effort to make them anything other than free points. I don't count Infirm on the list since it gives a solid mechanical penalty. Just because the PC lives around it and never really encounters a problem from it, he is limiting his potential character growth options, which is never a good thing.
Posted by: Bearclaw Nov 5 2003, 12:06 AM
| QUOTE (The Frumious Bandersnatch) | ||||||
While you may have felt insulted by what I said, it wasn't an attack on you. Just a general comment about the forums in general. |
Oh I'm sorry, I assumed that since you quoted me, you were speaking to me.
It appears that you also think it's a silly rule and you're just arguing here for some much needed social interaction. Don't let me interrupt you. Have a nice day
Posted by: Tanka Nov 5 2003, 12:11 AM
Know what a fun Flaw is? Amnesia -5. The GM gets to make you up, all you get is a basic history that you can't do anything with. <3
Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 5 2003, 12:14 AM
| QUOTE (Bearclaw) |
| Oh I'm sorry, I assumed that since you quoted me, you were speaking to me. |
Nah, I was just making a similarly "insightful" comment about discussions in general as you were, mon ami, hence referencing your post. But again, if you took it as a personal attack, there's not much I can do to help out there other than to offer my most sincere and humble apologies.
| QUOTE |
| It appears that you also think it's a silly rule and you're just arguing here for some much needed social interaction. Don't let me interrupt you. Have a nice day |
Considering your first post in the thread was simply berating the people discussing the rule because you had no idea what the problem was, you're about in the same league as you seem to suggest I am. Sure, I've made a few gruff comments looking back myself, but at least I've tried to offer some alternative solutions to the perceived (and understood) problems.
But hey, don't let me interupt you and your own holier-than-thou berating and insult-taking. Have a nice day.
Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 5 2003, 12:18 AM
| QUOTE (tanka) |
| Know what a fun Flaw is? Amnesia -5. The GM gets to make you up, all you get is a basic history that you can't do anything with. <3 |
Actually, I've found that flaw to be a useful tool for introducing totally virgin gamers to Shadowrun. You know, the type that've never even heard of a roleplaying game, let alone Shadowrun, but who are eager to play after having heard how much fun it is.
The GM can basically just create a reasonable character and hand them the rough story, then deal with all the mechanics on their own for the first game or two until the player gets the hang of what gaming is like. After that, you can come up with some excuse for how the player regained (some?) of their memories, and slowly start introducing the rules to them in a controlled and semi-believable fashion within the context of the game itself.
Now if some soddin' lazy experienced player tried to pull it, I'd whack him or her with a wiffleball bat.
But then again, I don't expect those types of players to waste points on Common Sense either.
Posted by: Lilt Nov 5 2003, 12:19 AM
Don't forget Flashbacks too! If your GM lets you: Have them triggered by tapdancing mongooses.
It's also fun to make a character who is a Claustraphobe+Agoraphobe... He's disconcerted in anything but rooms that are exactly the right size.
Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 5 2003, 12:24 AM
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| Don't forget Flashbacks too! If your GM lets you: Have them triggered by tapdancing mongooses. |
And thus is born the Kiddie Funtime Tapdancing Mongoose Hour! The funnest fun show on the trid. It's always playing in storefront windows, no matter the time of the night! Even hardened goons like to watch it during their shifts as security guards and thugs!
Heh
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 5 2003, 12:27 AM
TinkerGnome if thats what you do to make flaws, well flaws then i want to play in one of your games!!
Sounds like fun!!
Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 5 2003, 12:34 AM
Just to clarify, that's not something I would do for flaws normally. However, someone who comes to you with a flashback flaw with a trigger like that deserves whatever they get. Hell, it'd probably even be worth bonus karma to them most games just to have the comedic factor hanging around.
Player with flaw: I sneak up on the guard and put him in a choke hold to quietly put him out.
GM: As you sneak up on the guard, your spine tingles. He's wearing earphones and you think to yourself, "Ah, stupid guard... you've made this too easy." Your arm closes around his neck and you start to apply pressure. To your horror, the ear phone is knocked loose and you hear that all too familiar song... "We are the happy funtime tapdancing mongooses!" His small color television comes clearly into view before you can look away. Roll me that Willpower (6) test.
Posted by: BitBasher Nov 5 2003, 12:35 AM
I have had experienced players take full amnesia, but I don't even hand them a character sheet, I hand them a blank one and fill in skills as appropriate. Give him a severe phobia of doctors as a sammy so he COULDN'T go get a scan to see what cyber/bio he had Great fun!
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 5 2003, 12:41 AM
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) |
| To your horror, the ear phone is knocked loose and you hear that all too familiar song... "We are the happy funtime tapdancing mongooses!" His small color television comes clearly into view before you can look away. Roll me that Willpower (6) test. |
For some reason when i read this the tune to Happy Tree Friends popped in my head. argg flashbacks!!
Hmm, Eye candy and Mr Flippy
Posted by: Tanka Nov 5 2003, 12:42 AM
That's the point of Amnesia -5, to totally surprise the player. Give them a base description of what they are, but no attributes or skills, let alone any history.
Hey, wait, suddenly, they're under attack! Time to use that handy Predator III that's hanging under your jacket! Whoa, wait, you just cracked that Troll in the head and gave him an M wound! You've got a skill of six in Pistols!
That's how it's supposed to be done. Not "Hey, I made your character. In two runs, you get to learn your entire history." Best make sure they have a good -5 Flaw to take its place if you do. Best would be Hunted or Bad Rep. Of course, that's just the way I'd throw it.
And newbies should learn to make the character too. Get some help from the GM and other players, but don't just make them a sheet. That's just no fun. =\
Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 5 2003, 12:47 AM
| QUOTE (tanka) |
| And newbies should learn to make the character too. Get some help from the GM and other players, but don't just make them a sheet. That's just no fun. =\ |
I never claimed it was. I said it was a useful tool for introducing a specific type of newbie to the game in a specific circumstance. Not everyone wants to make their own character, and not everyone else in the group wants to wait around a few hours just so the complete and total newbie to gaming can sit around, struggling to grasp the rules and build a character. And few would want to do the latter while the rest of their friends are playing and laughing.
Posted by: Tanka Nov 5 2003, 12:54 AM
So you bring the new kid a few hours early to help him out. Or even the new kid and one or two people who would be willing to help him out. There truly is no excuse for not teaching somebody the system before they play.
Besides, what are they going to do while you virtually control their character? Sit around bored for who knows how long when combat comes up? Yeah, right.
Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 5 2003, 12:57 AM
Oy. Yes, that's exactly what they're going to do. You're spot on. Good job. That's completely and without question what I was referring to.
Posted by: Mongoose Nov 5 2003, 05:47 AM
Unfortunatley, I don't know how to tapdance....
+++++++++++++++++++++++
I do think the Infirm flaw should be fixed so that it reduces both racial max AND racial modified limit. Modified limit wouldn't go below 1, of course. That way, it would actually make it more expensive for characters to raise thier stats to levles that normal people could easily achieve.
As an example, I've had heart surgery and am restricted from some kinds of working out (lifting weights, aerobic training that will raise VO2 max) for health reason and by drugs I take. I bike a lot, am pretty tall, and I think I could fairly claim to have Bod 4, STR 3, QK 3 if I was a SR character. Would I have an Infirm flaw? Yeah, probably. Is it at rating 4+, which is what the current rule would seem to indicate? Probably not. Rating 2 would make more sense- and under my proposed fix, it would be enough to hinder me from raising my Bod stat, by raising the karma cost.
Then again, my heart condition di threaten my life, so maybe I traded in the "Borrowed Tme" flaw for 4 points worth of "Infirm", plus some other stuff...
Posted by: Dim Sum Nov 5 2003, 06:25 AM
| QUOTE (Mongoose) |
| Unfortunatley, I don't know how to tapdance.... |
*chokes on burger, spits out drink*
Posted by: Dim Sum Nov 5 2003, 06:41 AM
Amnesia is a wonderful thing but can only be used so often.
In the last SR campaign I ran several months back, all three of the player characters started the game in a burning car turned upside down, caught in a tree over the edge of a 100-ft cliff and slowly slipping. The car was all banged up and in their drowsy slowly-coming-to-full-consciousness state, they could hear the flames lighting up the tree as well. They had absolutely NO memory of what had just happened and who they were or how they got there.
They were dressed in street clothes but were wearing armour and had holsters or fast-draw rigs for firearms but there was only one pistol in the car (they figured the others must have gone out the windshield/windows during the crash 'cos there were a heckuva lotta bullet casings everywhere). During their climb out, one of them accidentally kicked the boot open and out fell a body and several weapons which dropped to the ocean below. When they got to the road above, they came under fire from a couple of strangers all kitted out for urban combat who seem surprised to see them come up from over the edge.
Anyway, they all had -5 Amnesia and I created their characters for them. They had no idea whatsoever what they were capable of - hell, they didn't even know what they looked like till much later when they had a breather from being chased, and looked into a mirror! It lent a GREAT air of intensity to everything and I would recommend an "amnesiac" game at least once to every GM!
I'd roll all their skills behind a screen for a while and after a while, rolled some of the dice in the open as they got accustomed to what they were capable of and eventually, I rolled their full skill level in the open when I felt they (in character) had a good feel for what they could do. It was fantastic while it lasted and it wasn't all that easy for them to figure out who they were and what they could do, and I give them a lot of credit for doing as well as they did.
Posted by: The Jopp Nov 5 2003, 08:21 AM
Dont remind me about the Amnesia -2 flaw. My poor gentle Firebringer shaman got the shock of his life when he realized that he had been a blood mage.
Flashbacks are a VERY lethal tool for GM's since you are doing NOTHING for D6 minutes. IF you fail your WP test and roll a 6 for Flashbacks you will be standing still for 6 minutes, or 120 combat turns.
120 combat turns... I have a severe problem with that amount of time in a COMBAT situation. If it was D6 combat turns it would explain more since you should be able to be jolted out of it.
Posted by: Sphynx Nov 5 2003, 08:23 AM
| QUOTE (The Frumious Bandersnatch) | ||
Your words would have had a lot more impact if not for your initial sentence. I just find this thread humorous because you've mentioned it a few times in the past on the older boards, yet act as if it was a marvelous discovery of yours just now. What can I say, I loathe that kind of mentality. |
Show me just 1 thread I've said this in. Considering I -just- found this out 3 days ago, I'm either suffering from a bout of amnesia, or you're full of shit.
To others: Daytime Job.
You've got to remember that a flaw has to be a flaw. Infirm is a flaw in that it limits advancement. A job is a flaw in that it limits available time. If someone is failing to show up for work, the GM earns the right to 'fire' the individual, and replace that flaw with another 1 to 3 pointer.
Personally, I usually take Police Record (this would be the flaw I normally chat about) because for -6 points, all you have to do is report to your payroll officer regularly, and even if you skip payroll, you're still overly paranoid about Cops (a good habit in Shadowrun).
Sphynx
Posted by: spotlite Nov 5 2003, 08:52 AM
Fruminous, I'm not sure what you're getting at with that long list of 'free' Flaws. It seems to me you're saying they're free if the GM doesn't enforce them - well, wouldn't that include all flaws, not just about half of them?
(seems we're destined to misunderstand each other, huh?)
I expect my players to know their character, and if they have flaws I shouldn't have to be checking up on them.
I have a player who's taken the Day Job flaw. They are a freelance secure courier/escort rigger. I have generated overheads for the business, including her agent and mechanic (two contacts she has, so they'll skip a paycheck once or twice before walking away). It makes the flaw slightly less powerful because if she doesn't take legit jobs but earns enough from running she can subsidise the business to keep it going - but less legit jobs means her legit rep is not being maintained and she'll get less work and end up running to keep her business going, not getting the income money from the flaw and not having enough to maintain her vehicle and drones. On the plus side there's an awful lot she can write off as a tax expense...
But its still a Flaw (just a -2) - if she doesn't do the hours she can't maintain half her contacts and she really really needs them. But I don't check up on it. She checks in with her agent before accepting a run to make sure she has no work that clashes and so on. Maybe I just have good players!
Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 5 2003, 02:07 PM
| QUOTE (spotlite) |
| Fruminous, I'm not sure what you're getting at with that long list of 'free' Flaws. It seems to me you're saying they're free if the GM doesn't enforce them - well, wouldn't that include all flaws, not just about half of them? |
You're mixing your posters a bit. TFB made a statement about how some flaws weren't flaws by the rules, and I put up a long list of flaws which require the GM to work at making them a flaw. If the GM doesn't put any effort into exploiting those flaws, they tend to become free points.
That said, Day Job is really a low point flaw and shouldn't be THAT limiting. Consider that a minor alergy to platinum is worth -2 points and think of how much of a flaw that really is... Or a fear of one armed midgets...
Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 5 2003, 02:09 PM
| QUOTE (spotlite @ Nov 5 2003, 02:52 AM) |
| Fruminous, I'm not sure what you're getting at with that long list of 'free' Flaws. It seems to me you're saying they're free if the GM doesn't enforce them - well, wouldn't that include all flaws, not just about half of them? |
Eh? I think you have me confused with TinkerGnome now.
I never gave a list of flaws, only mentioned that a few may appear to be "free" as far as game mechanics are concerned, like Vindictive.Drats, he beat me by a nose. Damn gnomes.
Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 5 2003, 02:32 PM
| QUOTE (The Frumious Bandersnatch) |
| Damn gnomes. |
It's the albinism and the Dikote™. They make me fast!
Posted by: spotlite Nov 5 2003, 04:17 PM
D'OH! sorry, having a very off day yesterday.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 5 2003, 06:07 PM
Sphynx: you're suffering from a bout of 3-point Amnesia. You've forgotten you're a demolitions expert.
~J
Posted by: Zazen Nov 5 2003, 08:06 PM
| QUOTE (Sphynx @ Nov 5 2003, 03:23 AM) |
| Personally, I usually take Police Record (this would be the flaw I normally chat about) because for -6 points, all you have to do is report to your payroll officer regularly, and even if you skip payroll, you're still overly paranoid about Cops (a good habit in Shadowrun). |
This had me quite confused for several minutes. Then I figured out that you were talking about parole officers
Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 5 2003, 08:24 PM
| QUOTE (Sphynx @ Nov 5 2003, 02:23 AM) |
| Personally, I usually take Police Record (this would be the flaw I normally chat about) because for -6 points, all you have to do is report to your payroll officer regularly, and even if you skip payroll, you're still overly paranoid about Cops (a good habit in Shadowrun). |
You might want to read that flaw over a bit more carefully, because that's not the only hindrance of it. You're stuck with a criminal SIN that has *all* of your personal information on it (and you're not gettting rid of it without paying 60 Karma first, and then only with the GM's blessing to allow you to buy the flaw off), meaning if you leave so much as a drop of sweat behind at a crime scene, they'll be able to track you down pretty easily.
Not only that, but you can never have any contacts beyond the street level. Every corporation will have a copy of your records, including your face, prints, and style, allowing them to easily identify you when you infiltrate their property *and* know your weaknesses. And finally, your GM has free reign to have Lone Star or other police/security individuals harrassing you whenever he feels like doing so.
And when they do find out that you're performing illegal activities, which again is going to be easy as cake for them to do, they'll know most if not all of your contacts, your primary residence (any new safehouses should be safe, as long as you secured them through Level 2 or higher contacts who'll try to protect you -- Level 1's usually don't), and they can check up on you any time they wish, so you can't just keep a fake lifestyle going to bypass those things.
In fact, I'd say it's one of the *worst* flaws that a Shadowrunner can possible have.
Posted by: Sphynx Nov 5 2003, 08:39 PM
It's better than Vindictive.
Sphynx
Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 5 2003, 08:46 PM
Only in your mind's eye. By the rules involved, the in-character consequences of the flaw, and the reprecussions of both of them, Police Record is *EASILY* three times (more like ten times) worse.
Posted by: Sphynx Nov 5 2003, 08:48 PM
Fortunately, you live in a world where you can have your own (albeit bizarre) opinion. Lucky you.
Sphynx
Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 5 2003, 08:54 PM
Yes, lucky me. In my strange little world, having a bad attitude and a reputation for not being someone to fuck with (because doing so usually results in the offensive individual being punished for the perceived wrong -- sorta like Lucy Liu's character in Kill Bill), which admittedly can be a pain if you can't control it when around someone bigger and badder than yourself... is SO MUCH less a hassle than having all of your personal information on government and corporate records, a criminal SIN, constant harrassment, not being able to leave the area, nothing but street contacts, no association whatsoever with corporate types, and all the other pains that come with Police Record.
But as you pointed out, the former is obviously more of a hassle than the latter for a Shadowrunner in the "real" world. What a silly world I live in.
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Nov 5 2003, 09:23 PM
The greatest advantage of vindictive is that there is no requirement as to when you exact revenge, just that it will happen. The vindictive keep track of those who "will suffer greatly!" and implement the pain as is fitting.
A lying braggart griffin shaman is a potent flaw: will take credit for all accomplishments, none will believe the claims, and the first person to challenge his truthfulness gets in a fight to the death.
Vindictive is easy if the player and character are smart, low intelligence on either part makes it suicide.
Posted by: Siege Nov 5 2003, 09:25 PM
Not to mention that an ex-con is going to get hassled on general principles. And anyone who happens to be with them at the time.
-Siege
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