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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Bioware replacement

Posted by: limejello10512 Mar 13 2007, 10:20 PM

Okay question if I want to replace the bioware in a character with say deltaware, or upgrade the rating...can I have the bioware removed?

Do you have to pay for the replacement in full or just foot the difference for example if I want to upgrade rating 2 to 3 do I have to buy all 3 rating points all over again or just the last one?

anyone know?

Posted by: Demerzel Mar 13 2007, 10:36 PM

It is not entirely described in the core rulebook.

I hate to say it, but look for it in Augmentation.

In the mean time, you'll have to use a house rule/come to an agreement with your GM.

Many would think that it would be reasonable to say you could have bioware removed and replaced with a diffeent piece and only pay the difference. If that difference is negative (You are owed essence back) previous editions have left those as "holes" in your essence that can be filled at a later time with other equipment.

There are flaws to this however, since essence for bio and cyber is countd along different tracks and then one if halfed. You'll have to decide for yourself until Augmentation...

Posted by: Jaid Mar 13 2007, 11:02 PM

juse on a side note, i would not allow you to 'upgrade' bioware, but replacement would certainly be allowable. in most cases, you would pay the full cost of the new rating, but you may be able to sell the previous one (provided it isn't cultured bioware).

you would only pay the difference in essence cost however, if i were running things... not the full amount.

Posted by: Demerzel Mar 13 2007, 11:24 PM

Yes, when I say and only pay the difference I was assuming the only costs we were discussing here were essence costs. I took for granted that nuyen was not topical.

Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 14 2007, 01:24 AM

For some bioware, I allow them to upgrade, and pay the difference, plus surgery costs.
Ex.: Synaptic booster 1 to booster 2 = 80k, plus surgery. The ware has to be the same grade.
I view it as adding extra badwidth, etc...

But, if you want to go from Synaptic booster 1 to beta synaptic booster II, you have to pay the full cost, plus surgery.

Posted by: Konsaki Mar 14 2007, 01:32 AM

I look at bioware and think that some of it, especially the cultured stuff, can be grown inside you. I work it like Mistwalker posted up.

Posted by: TheOOB Mar 14 2007, 03:59 AM

At the moment, I rule that when you remove cyberware you gain 4/5 the essence back, and the other 1/5 acts as "virtual essence" that can only be used to install more ware of the same type as the type removed (cyber or bio).

I don't want players to feel penalized for putting weak ware in their body early on, so they pretty much don't lose anything by doing so, except their nuyen (though they can always sell their old non-cultured ware).

Posted by: nathanross Mar 14 2007, 04:24 AM

I like you OOB, will you be my GM?

Posted by: TheOOB Mar 14 2007, 04:54 AM

Are you sure? I just made a run with a twisted mage who summons a trio of spirits of men, all of them knowing manabolt. Don't think your precious essence will save you there, though a mana ward might.

Posted by: nathanross Mar 14 2007, 05:19 AM

Im exaggerating of course, though there is nothing wrong with a run you have to pull yourself away from due to the fact you no longer have legs. I just like knowing down the road when I need some new ware and I finally have the money for some delta, I wont be fucked by my previous ware.

Posted by: ShadowDragon Mar 14 2007, 05:48 AM

QUOTE (Mistwalker)

Err... plus surgery? Is that a houserule? I always considered the high cost of ware to correlate to the type and difficulty of surgery, and thus be included. That way killing a cybersammy doesn't equate to payday, so I can throw more cybered enemies at my players without ruining balance with too much money.

Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 14 2007, 07:32 AM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon)

QUOTE (Mistwalker @ Mar 13 2007, 08:24 PM)

Yes and No.

I don't believe that surgery costs are mentioned anywhere in the BBB. It is a follow thru from previous editions. I expect that surgery will be addressed in Augmentation when it comes out.

As for the payday problem with augmented enemies, here is what I do to limit this problem (my players already have an agreement with a ghoul group for disposal of bodies, with ware and gear return, which is split between the ghouls and PCs).

Most bioware (if not all), is not recoverable. The PCs don't have a lab to be able to test and identify organs as augmented or not, nor any way of storing and keeping the bodies, then the organs "fresh".
It is possible, if they have the corpse's medical file, and it lists the bioware augmentations, that they can find a street doc who can remove the organs.

Cyberware, any thing that has "wires" as part of the name, well, most of it is not really recoverable. You are talking about very fine wires, spread througout the body. When new, the wires are on spools, so easy to implant.

And remember, used ware, well, they can only get 10 to 30% of the value.
And, it is a little hard to hide the x bodies, if your exit doesn't include a sealed van.

And, selling a lot of used ware, will let your enemies know who just did XYZ run, and may still have the stolen item, or the brother of the deceased is a merc out for revenge, etc...

Posted by: hyzmarca Mar 14 2007, 07:44 AM

That remains to be seen. In previous editions, surgery costs were separate from the price of the implant. Man and Machine had some particularly f-ed up surgery rules which were both bizarre and highly abusable.
We won;t know for sure untill augmentation comes out.

Also, in previous editions removed 'ware left an "essence hole". This hole could be filled by new ware.

Posted by: MaxHunter Mar 14 2007, 04:01 PM

hard and fast surgery rules:

each 0.1 of essence means 1 box of damage, healing is house ruled to be a body x2 plus modifiers (boxes= days). each day at the hospital or doc is worth 500y for the hospitalization lifestyle, and any self respecting doc won't let you walk out of the hospital until you are fully healed.

Surgery costs include healing costs plus the doctor's fee's, something like 10% to 30% of the implant cost. In my game we even had a MCT Beta clinic which charged 2500y just to admit you as a patient, and then somebody had to introduce the applicant to the clinic's staff first.

Cheers,

Max

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Mar 14 2007, 04:03 PM

QUOTE (MaxHunter)

each 0.1 of essence means 1 box of damage

Is there a cap on that, or does implanting wired reflexes really cause the subject to explode into a fine red mist?

Posted by: Demerzel Mar 14 2007, 04:05 PM

QUOTE (MaxHunter)

any self respecting doc won't let you walk out of the hospital until you are fully healed.

I've never seen a surgeon in real life who would hold every patient in the hospital untill all the stitches were ready to be removed. Seems like it's usually get stable enough to heal at home and show you the door. If it starts to bleed call in and they'll have you either go in or go to a hospital ER...

Posted by: MaxHunter Mar 14 2007, 04:06 PM

@moon-hawk

you won't die at the hospital, but you have to heal 20 boxes. (it could be that they can't install it all at once... etc.) Just takes more time and costs more.

It's not necessary to murder shadowrunners at the operating table, troll ninjas can do that so much better. Your question was funny, though

Cheers,

Max

edited because of slow posting

Posted by: Fezig Mar 14 2007, 06:55 PM

Since I assume just about every time you remove bio/cyber you will replace it with bio/cyber I essentially run it so that there is a small portion of damage that is done irreversibly to your body by the ware but if you upgrade (wired reflexes 1 to 2, etc.) then you are essentially using the same damaged areas and thus the same "essence", and upgrading from alpha to delta or whatev I assume essentially the same thing.

As for pricing, I run that it should cost the full book price to upgrade, but if its salvageable you can negotiate a discount or sell the ware you have to someone (likely the doc you are getting the op from). For a character I have, they actually work at a street clinic and thus would have access to ways of storing, dissecting, and otherwise dealing with corpses and wares.

Posted by: hyzmarca Mar 14 2007, 08:31 PM

Essence loss isn't physical damage, it is metaphysical damage. As such, it shouldn't matter where the 'ware is installed, only how much it differs from your metaphysical Pattern.

Posted by: Nostalgic Jester Mar 15 2007, 09:05 AM

I agree with Hyzmarca. IMHO, essence works as an indicator of a subject´s holistic integrity and as such is in no way related to physical damage. However, essence cost may serve as an indicator of an implant´s extensiveness and then you could relate it to installation complexity. Even though, I think the installation process is somehow part of the cost of the implant and I do not imagine said project relying mostly in actual surgery, I am more of the mind that the implant is somehow "grown" onto the subjects ´body through nanite use and genetic manipulation. I do know that theoretically a character could buy a "generic" implant on his chosen bodyshop and have it installed elsewhere through surgery, but I am just not very fond on the idea. I mean, "of the shelf" Wired Reflexes being installed through actually ripping apart said character? Mmm... Nope, I do not buy it. Anyway, just my (quite extensive, I know) two cents.

Posted by: Fezig Mar 15 2007, 09:40 PM

If the last two comments are in response to my post, then perhaps it may clear things up a bit if I mean that when they implant cyber/bio I'd assume they'd need surgical pins, plates, braces, and other things unnatural to your body. Some of these things would be unrecoverable or would do some permanent alteration to the bones/organs/muscle it once effected and that would be the lasting effect on essence, but the rest would essentially slide out and thus would leave no lasting damage.

Posted by: Jaymes Mar 16 2007, 12:48 PM

QUOTE (MaxHunter)

you won't die at the hospital, but you have to heal 20 boxes. (it could be that they can't install it all at once... etc.) Just takes more time and costs more.

AKA "A Vat Job"

Posted by: Jaid Mar 16 2007, 05:25 PM

QUOTE (Fezig)

you don't (generally) lose essence when you got shot. i see no reason why there should be a difference based on whether the bullet was placed in you or shot into you with a gun.

therefore, pins, braces, etc don't generally have any effect on your essence, imo.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Mar 16 2007, 06:17 PM

Backed up by the fact that a little piece like a cranial bomb no longer costs essence.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Mar 16 2007, 06:19 PM

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Mar 16 2007, 01:17 PM)

Backed up by the fact that a little piece like a cranial bomb no longer costs essence.

In what edition did a cranial bomb cost essense? 1st?

edit: That sounds snarkier than I meant it. IIRC they didn't cost essence as far back as 2nd ed, but I'm not 100% sure I'm right, so I was genuinely asking.

Posted by: Demerzel Mar 17 2007, 01:31 AM

The master list in the back of Shadowtech (1st ed.) lists a cortex bomb at 500,000 and no essense cost.