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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Targeting an active focus from the astral
Posted by: desverendi Mar 15 2007, 12:23 AM
I remember in the 2nd and third edition rules there was a way that an astrally projecting or perceiving mage could cast a spell at an active focus or spell lock from the astral and have it burn out the focus or spell lock and affect the physical world. Even an area spell could be targeted on the focus but it would have an effect in the physical world. I can't seem to find anything like this in fourth edition or on the boards. Does anyone remember this and still use it? I always thought it was an awesome deterrent to mages running around with tons of foci active with armor or levitate or increase reflexes or worse, all three.....
Posted by: DireRadiant Mar 15 2007, 12:24 AM
Long gone.
Posted by: desverendi Mar 15 2007, 12:27 AM
That was an awesome rule, I wonder what the rationale was for ditching it?
Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 15 2007, 12:42 AM
Probably because it was way to easy for runners to have an unwitting victim go into a building with a level 1 sustaining focus active, and then pump a large spell into it and take out all the guards from astral.
And other such abuse.
Posted by: Jaid Mar 15 2007, 01:23 AM
yeah, that's been gone since 3rd edition...
Posted by: Garrowolf Mar 15 2007, 01:23 AM
It also made foci too dangerous to use. The game designers wanted foci to be a way to get rid of the mages money. Then nobody used them.
Posted by: Demerzel Mar 15 2007, 01:33 AM
You can however still target the foci and destroy it. Just not affect the Physical plane.
Posted by: desverendi Mar 15 2007, 02:30 AM
I'll have to look in to the rules for that then. I guess it's just a judgement call on how much damage it takes to destroy a focus depending on what the focus is.
Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 15 2007, 02:40 AM
I don't think you can destroy the focus, but you can disrupt it, so that it cannot be used for a bit, but only if it was active when you attacked from astral.
Posted by: Demerzel Mar 15 2007, 03:56 AM
I assume that you assign the focus a barrier and armor rating like any other object you wish to apply damage to.
You hit it with a manabolt and you do physical damage to it. It takes that damage just like anything else and can be destroyed.
There are rules for when you can target a focus from astral, how a focus resists spells, and how objects take damage. It all seems to add up to a smooshed focus.
Posted by: lorechaser Mar 15 2007, 03:31 PM
That was indeed the bestest rule.
And I think its absence goes a long way towards the "mages are so overpowered zomg!" arguments. When your mage can have 3-4 active, rank 3 foci, they get better real quick.
Posted by: Ravor Mar 15 2007, 03:38 PM
Until you smite them with Foci Addiction...
Posted by: Redjack Mar 16 2007, 08:18 PM
Arrgghhh... So much for "plinking" the foci of mages... That was the best defense for security mages on astral patrol....
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Mar 16 2007, 09:48 PM
...I really miss grounding. I really do.
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Mar 16 2007, 09:55 PM
KK beat me to it. It was called Grounding. And the new foci addiction doesn't do half what last editions versions did. The lack of these two rules IMO have let foci get a lot stronger. That along with sustaining foci being spell category and not for a specific spell. I still use grounding to level the field a bit. Works well for me.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Mar 16 2007, 10:05 PM
...I think I will do the same. Too many runners getting rich off of NPC foci that are needed to counter the PCs with foci.
"...we cannot afford to have a magic focus gap."
Posted by: Demerzel Mar 17 2007, 01:24 AM
I find that destroying expensive and expensive to bind foci is quite enough a deterrent to over use. Your players only have to lose 8 to 12 Karma once to become very very careful when and where they light one up.
So you can't damage their neighbor now, not that big a loss IMO.
Posted by: desverendi Mar 17 2007, 02:56 PM
Yes! You're right, and I had forgotten that sustaining foci had to be purchased for a specific group of spells. Grounding is back in my game as well...
Thanks for all the feedback.
Posted by: Redjack Mar 18 2007, 03:05 AM
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| KK beat me to it. It was called Grounding. |
Grounding is casting a physical spell on a foci and having it take effect at the location of the physical aspect of the foci... Plinking is attacking active foci and killing it. Sustaining foci were the best... increased reflexes and the like...
| QUOTE |
| The lack of these two rules IMO have let foci get a lot stronger. |
I absolutely agree... Mages can be a lot more careless and have lost a signifigant amount of their liability factor...
Posted by: apollo124 Mar 18 2007, 04:20 AM
The old "grounding" rule was the number one reason why none of my spell-tossers ever had even one focus. Since it's gone in 4th ed and we now have sustaining foci, I could see loading up on at least 5 of the things, one for each spell category.
Posted by: Ravor Mar 18 2007, 04:32 AM
And if the Foci were used most of the time I'd say that is a classic case of Severe Foci Addiction, -6 to all Addiction Tests, Drain Tests, and to the tests to resist using your Foci even when you don't have to.
And to top it all off, you aren't very far away from burning out all of your Magic. At least to me it seems alot more balanced then having one active Focus serving as a ground to roast the entire party with no chance of being able to return fire.
Posted by: Redjack Mar 18 2007, 02:33 PM
| QUOTE (Ravor @ Mar 17 2007, 11:32 PM) |
| And if the Foci were used most of the time I'd say that is a classic case of Severe Foci Addiction |
Hogwash.. That's like saying we all have a car addiction. We use our cars all the time becuase they are the right tool for the job.. To get us from point A to point B in the fastest manner possible..
Posted by: dionysus Mar 18 2007, 02:55 PM
| QUOTE (Redjack) | ||
Hogwash.. That's like saying we all have a car addiction. We use our cars all the time becuase they are the right tool for the job.. To get us from point A to point B in the fastest manner possible.. |
Yeah, but cars don't have a mystical link with our inner spiritual essences. If you had to bind a car and it melded with your innermost being, I'd be afraid to commute like I do.
Posted by: Jaid Mar 18 2007, 02:58 PM
| QUOTE (Redjack) | ||
Hogwash.. That's like saying we all have a car addiction. We use our cars all the time becuase they are the right tool for the job.. To get us from point A to point B in the fastest manner possible.. |
riiight... so you've never seen someone living in a trailer with a vehicle (or two) that probably costs almost as much as the trailer out front?
in all seriousness, most people that i know actually use their cars for far more than is really required. i wouldn't say the addiction is to cars, however, so much as it is to laziness. i mean, watch sometime... people will just barely miss an elevator and wait 5 minutes for it to come back so they can get to the second floor, instead of using the stairs
Posted by: Redjack Mar 18 2007, 04:26 PM
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| riiight... so you've never seen someone living in a trailer with a vehicle (or two) that probably costs almost as much as the trailer out front? in all seriousness, most people that i know actually use their cars for far more than is really required. i wouldn't say the addiction is to cars, however, so much as it is to laziness. |
Now that I subscribe to..
People are, by their nature, lazy and the way to combat laziness is a disciplined mind (ergo willpower). Psychological addictions are in that same category, like laziness, a character defect rather than mental defect or disease.
| QUOTE (dionysus; Mar 18 2007 @ 09:55 AM) |
| Yeah, but cars don't have a mystical link with our inner spiritual essences. If you had to bind a car and it melded with your innermost being, I'd be afraid to commute like I do. |
Point taken.
Ok, now the question is... How do you rate and balance this to cyberware? With bioware/cyberware you have essence to limit this and provide some measure of game balance. What is the frequency of foci use the cause addiction? How does willpower, magic rating and foci rating affect this?
Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 18 2007, 08:06 PM
Well, one big flag for me, is when the mage has one or more foci active all the time.
Posted by: apollo124 Mar 19 2007, 03:32 AM
Just as a side note, I didn't say my char would have them all active all the time, but when he knows a manipulation spell is going to be needed soon, tick that focus over to active, then deactivate it when it's no longer needed. The laziness factor is a good point though, and has even been noted in flavor text in at least some of the books.
Posted by: Ravor Mar 19 2007, 05:10 AM
Well personally I'm more lenient then RAW seems to suggest that I be with Foci Addiction, the way I read RAW, even using one Focus a large portion of the time is enough to start warrenting addiction checks.
However, if a Mage is using various Foci for basically everything that he does, and yes, Bonding to one Foci per Spell cast is a big flashing neon warning sign for me, and even at the Mild version, he is looking at -2 to the same rolls that I mentioned before and it is the start of the slipperly slope, unlike Mild addictions to drugs or BTLs which are largely flavor, even a mild addiction to Foci has teeth that hurt. And I'm fine with that because unlike BTLs and drugs, the Mage has invested a part of his soul to the various Foci that he is abusing.
Now, to the cyber/bio-ware issue, well personally I don't see any balancing problems at all, Mages are just as free to install cyber as mundanes are and in fact I think that its stupid not to do so with a few choice pieces.
You have however, given me an idea for a NPC that is addicted to surgery, thanks.
Posted by: lorechaser Mar 19 2007, 05:23 PM
| QUOTE (Redjack) | ||
Hogwash.. That's like saying we all have a car addiction. We use our cars all the time becuase they are the right tool for the job.. To get us from point A to point B in the fastest manner possible.. |
You are free to feel that way.
However, the rules for Focus Addiction are quite clear, and are in Street Magic.
Presumably, Foci were built and priced and balanced in a world where the Focus Addiction rules are used by the book. If you toss out part of that, you may need to curb foci a bit.
To be specific:
Mild:
At this level of addiction, few magicians recognize
they have a problem. Mild focus addicts keep their foci
active more often and use them regardless of whether they need
the extra power or not
Moderate: the magician refuses to take off or turn off foci under any circumstances,
and many become obsessed with gaining more foci
to supplement their abilities.
Severe: Magicians at this level of addiction are
out of control, constantly using their magical abilities to tap
into the foci.
Burnout: This is the same as a Severe addiction,
except the addict has been in this state for some time and is experiencing
the tell-tale signs of habitual use on his aura. Using
foci at this level of addiction is physically painful for the addict,
but even this comes as welcome relief from the hell the
character’s body has become.
So a mage that has foci running constantly pretty clearly hits Mild, and may hit moderate or severe, depending on the GM.
And if you don't think Americans have a Car addiction, I'd suggest you haven't spent enough time overseas, or watched a city try to institute real mass transit.
New York is about the only place in the US I'd buy doesn't have a car addiction.
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