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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Is eberron a DND version of shadowrun?
Posted by: fourstring_samurai Mar 15 2007, 09:48 PM
I like the Eberron setting for dnd, because for me it's a fun new take on old school stuff.
However, as i'm starting up a new SR group after a two year layoff in which i'd been playing eberron occasionally, i noticed a lot of similarities with the ideas in eberron:
big houses that control commerce that don't take sides in conflicts, a "grittier" dnd setting, Sharn the city of towers being a huge skyscraping melting pot of a city, etc.
and the ideas in SR:
megacorps that control commerce that don't take sides in conflicts, a gritty setting, Seattle being a huge skyscraping melting pot of a city...you get the idea.
and i wondered if mr. baker was a bit inspired by my beloved shadowrun.
thoughts?
Posted by: lorechaser Mar 15 2007, 09:54 PM
Keith Baker is a hack.
When I read the winning submission, I went back to the submission guidelines, and counted the number of places he violated either spirit or the letter of the rules.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Mar 15 2007, 10:04 PM
Do you have a link to the guidelines?
~J
Posted by: Ophis Mar 15 2007, 10:12 PM
| QUOTE (lorechaser) |
| Keith Baker is a hack. When I read the winning submission, I went back to the submission guidelines, and counted the number of places he violated either spirit or the letter of the rules. |
You've read his actual submission?
Once they'd selected it for development WOTC may have added a lot of the violations themselves.
Keith baker is in my experience a gentleman and a scholar, he's by his own admission not the best rules guy around but he certainly used to spend a lot of time answering questions on the WOTC boards about eberron.
I love the Eberron setting and enjoy it's similarities to SR and Earthdawn. It's sort of FantasyPunk. Great fun to run and play in very different to anything else D&D ever had.
Posted by: Grinder Mar 15 2007, 10:17 PM
| QUOTE (Ophis) |
| I love the Eberron setting and enjoy it's similarities to SR and Earthdawn. It's sort of FantasyPunk. Great fun to run and play in very different to anything else D&D ever had. |
Amen!
Posted by: Kagetenshi Mar 15 2007, 10:19 PM
You enjoy it is similarities? 
~J
Posted by: Crakkerjakk Mar 16 2007, 04:21 AM
Yeah, Eberron is awesome. I still love forgotten realms, but Eberron changes the flavor of DnD. However, as to being a rip-off of shadowrun, i don't think so. It doesn't take any more concepts than big cities and intrigue to create Sharn or 2070 Seattle(or Hong Kong, or anywhere else big in SR.) SR uses many themes common in literature, and Eberron merely makes the same use of those themes.
Posted by: Lindt Mar 16 2007, 04:29 AM
Eh, its not Planescape. Its d20 modern, kinda sorta. Not my cup of tea.
Posted by: NightmareX Mar 16 2007, 08:59 AM
1: Keith is cool. The man is hardly a hack.
2: While there are some surface similarities between SR and Eberron, once you get into the actual setting material for Eberron it becomes clear that the two are nothing alike. While Eberron can be run in a fashion similar to SR, it loses some of it's own uniqueness if that is all one runs it as.
Posted by: Grinder Mar 16 2007, 10:37 AM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| You enjoy it is similarities? ~J |
Why are you so cruel to me?
I enjoy the world/ setting of Eberron and it's similarities to ED and SR, yes.
Posted by: mmu1 Mar 16 2007, 12:26 PM
While there are superficial similarities, SR and Eberron have very little in common.
As for Eberron itself - I have to admit I found it rather flat and uninspired. There was nothing new in there, neither in terms of the pieces that make it up, nor in the way they all fit together.
Which is not terribly surprising, in an official setting - WotC understands that D&D sells because it's mainstream and generic.
Posted by: Dentris Mar 16 2007, 07:26 PM
Eberron's main strength is its ability to take something worn out, overused and boring and transform it into something that looks new and refreshing.
(Note that i used the world ''look'')
Posted by: Grinder Mar 16 2007, 09:47 PM
Hey, I just noticed that you used the word "look"! 
I found Eberron to be very interesting, even though many stuff is known to SR and ED players. But hey, I played in some interesting campaigns and it brought some new players into RPG at all, so I'm fine with it.
Posted by: Crakkerjakk Mar 16 2007, 10:28 PM
I dunno, I felt like Eberron actually added something to what the other campaign worlds provided. More of a "pulp" feel. I see some aspects of Eberron as distinctly "Indiana Jones"-ish. Not only for the adventurous treasure hunting, but also for the pre-WW2 feel, the large number of non-governmental political entities, and the industrialization of magic.
I don't feel like any of the other worlds provided these elements, at least not packaged together. It doesn't change the overall mechanics of the system, but it does provide fresh inspiration and story telling oportunities.
Personally, I like the Shadowrun-esque progression, with more skill progression and growth than levels and classes, but I think Eberron does a good job of making me take a second look at playing a d20 system.
Posted by: Grinder Mar 16 2007, 10:45 PM
Yup. I still don't love d20 mechanics, but I like it enough to run Eberron and Iron Kingdom recently.
Posted by: Calvin Hobbes Mar 16 2007, 11:58 PM
I'd also kind of like Lorechaser to explain his comments. Or we can assume he's just jealous of Keith's success.
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Mar 17 2007, 12:27 AM
| QUOTE (Calvin Hobbes) |
| I'd also kind of like Lorechaser to explain his comments. Or we can assume he's just jealous of Keith's success. |
Nah, he's just one of the people who had had enough of wererats long before The Complete Guide to Wererats.
Posted by: eidolon Mar 17 2007, 04:39 AM
| QUOTE (Grinder @ Mar 16 2007, 04:45 PM) |
| Yup. I still don't love d20 mechanics, but I like it enough to run Eberron and Iron Kingdom recently. |
I'm jealous. Frankly, Eberron is almost enough to make me actively seek a d20 game, but Iron Kingdoms? If only somebody around here would run it! It just looks awesome. I bought the books, but I've got way too much going on to try and run a game.
(I like Eberron a lot, I just can't really prioritize that over other stuff right now. *shrug* Actually, I think you could call me and say "Hey, we're going to play some Bunnies and Burrows" and I'd be all about it.)
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Mar 17 2007, 05:46 AM
How 'bout "Tunnels and Trolls"? That was a great game.
| QUOTE |
| Bunnies and Burrows |
It's funny 'cause it's Grinder. I know that makes no sense to the rest of you, but it's funny to me.
Posted by: knasser Mar 17 2007, 08:04 AM
I'll defend Keith Baker. Read through the Ask Keith Baker FAQ on the Eberron boards (and while you're there, check out my song parodies under the name Lurkalot. ). The amount of time and thought he has put into answering peoples question on the setting is staggering. And in my opinion, he has succeeded in making core D&D creatures and races fresh and interesting again. And the world itself is very rich and internally consistent.
I agree that D20 mechanics hold it back, mainly in my opinion, the magic system which I haven't liked since I was eighteen. But have a look at the Iron Heroes rules which are D20, but better. It doesn't actually take much work at all to swap these in for the Eberron setting. Iron Heroes is low-magic, Eberron is lots of magic but mostly low-powered and clerical magic very rare. The fit together beautifully with one adjustment which is to say that only magical classes can use magical items (e.g. a paladin or ranger can use a Sword + 1, but the Iron Heroes weapon master is mundane).
Eberron + Iron Heroes = Fantastic Game. Anyone who doesn't think the Eberron setting is awesome should check out the characters that Keith Baker's work inspired in my sig.
-K.
Posted by: Grinder Mar 17 2007, 05:29 PM
| QUOTE (eidolon) | ||
I'm jealous. Frankly, Eberron is almost enough to make me actively seek a d20 game, but Iron Kingdoms? If only somebody around here would run it! It just looks awesome. I bought the books, but I've got way too much going on to try and run a game. |
Iron Kingdoms is by far one of the most interesting settings I've read and played in. If you can, run it, even if it's just one session.
Posted by: Grinder Mar 17 2007, 05:30 PM
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Mar 17 2007, 06:46 AM) | ||
How 'bout "Tunnels and Trolls"? That was a great game.
It's funny 'cause it's Grinder. I know that makes no sense to the rest of you, but it's funny to me. |
That was sooooo great!
Posted by: lorechaser Mar 18 2007, 03:51 PM
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm @ Mar 16 2007, 06:27 PM) | ||
Nah, he's just one of the people who had had enough of wererats long before The Complete Guide to Wererats. |
I might be jealous.
The rules aren't around that I can really find. My main beef is the setting search was pitched as "a whole new way to adventure in DnD" sort of thing. The implication was they wanted something new, something different, something that hadn't been done.
And what they got was d20 with a couple new core classes, a couple new races, and the word "noir" scattered liberally about.
I don't really begrudge Keith his success. He does seem to be a good guy, and I'm glad that his setting has become the new hot property - it's cool to see someone's stuff take off like that.
I just remember talking to everyone about this, and hearing these great settings that took the DnD world and turned it on its head, shook up fundamental aspects, brought in stuff that had always been missing, etc. Then I hear about the winner, and it's DnD with trains, and it's "noir." I don't buy that it's a noir setting, except that all the fluff about it says "Hey, this is noir!"
My bitterness comes from either my misreading of the scope or Wizard's bad explanation of the scope. I expected something way crazy and out there - something like Planescape, or Dark Sun, or Birthright. And then Eberron was the result.
In a vacuum, Eberron might be enough to get me back to playing 3.5, I'll agree. It's a good world, and one that makes more logical sense (if everyone can cast magic, why *aren't* there magical streetlights?). It just wasn't the huge shift I was expecting, and that I pitched towards.
Posted by: Tanka Mar 18 2007, 05:33 PM
I think one of the biggest things about Eberron is there are no high-level players like in FR or any of the other usual D&D worlds. No Elminster, no Epic characters, et cetera.
There's a leader of a religious group that's high level only in their main temple, but outside of that? Oh, say, around 4th level. And a child.
So the world more focuses on you and what you do in the world, instead of focusing on the world and all of its high-powered players.
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Mar 19 2007, 12:16 AM
| QUOTE (Tanka) |
| I think one of the biggest things about Eberron is there are no high-level players like in FR or any of the other usual D&D worlds. No Elminster, no Epic characters, et cetera. There's a leader of a religious group that's high level only in their main temple, but outside of that? Oh, say, around 4th level. And a child. So the world more focuses on you and what you do in the world, instead of focusing on the world and all of its high-powered players. |
But...but...I thought that the point of a setting was to have the DM smack you down with Elminster after you dare to defy him! Without Lord British to automatically kill my character how can I possibly be fulfilled as a role player?
Posted by: Kagetenshi Mar 19 2007, 12:23 AM
So is there a cap on PCs, or is there some reason why the PCs are so extra-special that no one else can reach their level of ability?
~J
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Mar 19 2007, 12:27 AM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| So is there a cap on PCs, or is there some reason why the PCs are so extra-special that no one else can reach their level of ability? ~J |
I guess a lot of people prefer self-aggrandizement and super characters over having their characters punked all the time. I say this without making any value judgements, because I don't mind getting punked a lot due to difficult scenarios and setups but I had a friend who was mainly after self aggrandizement and self expression through RPGs.
Posted by: Tanka Mar 19 2007, 12:28 AM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| So is there a cap on PCs, or is there some reason why the PCs are so extra-special that no one else can reach their level of ability? ~J |
No cap on PCs. There isn't a huge call for adventuring types, so nobody really gains XP, or if they do, it's spent on crafting or somesuch.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Mar 19 2007, 12:37 AM
So the PCs always arrive on the scene at Just The Right Moment™ for the one big set of events that requires an adventuring type that will happen in that current century?
~J
Posted by: Tanka Mar 19 2007, 12:48 AM
More or less, yeah.
Sounds kind of like a lot of other fantasy stories, doesn't it?
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Mar 19 2007, 12:51 AM
| QUOTE (Tanka) | ||
No cap on PCs. There isn't a huge call for adventuring types, so nobody really gains XP, or if they do, it's spent on crafting or somesuch. |
Does the game let you go around killing orcs and then use the resulting XP to pump up your pottery skill?
Posted by: PBTHHHHT Mar 19 2007, 01:01 AM
Only if you use their bodies to create works of art... errr... ewwww. 
Posted by: Tanka Mar 19 2007, 01:08 AM
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) | ||||
Does the game let you go around killing orcs and then use the resulting XP to pump up your pottery skill? |
Sure, but most NPCs are Commoner or Noble or, uh... I dunno, L1 Fighter.
Crafters are probably Wizards, but not too high level. So most high level gear is either found by adventuring (defeating the hidden high level encounters that your GM makes up) or by creating them yourself.
I never said there couldn't be any high-level NPCs. Just that none were statted and included in the main campaign.
Oh, and deities aren't so obvious in Eberron. As in, you don't randomly bump into Tyr on your daily commune with the gods.
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Mar 19 2007, 01:09 AM
| QUOTE (PBTHHHHT) |
| Only if you use their bodies to create works of art... errr... ewwww. |
I had a friend in New York State who played a lot of D&D in his time. He told me about how one time the DM decided to run a super epic godlike campaign where the gods had gathered all the greatest heroes from the multiverse in order to save it from certain destruction. Accordingly, everyone started with a character who had the maximum experience level, and everyone got to choose what their character class/type was.
My friend decided to play a maximum level farmer, using the NPC class for skilled townsfolk (artisan, or whatever it was called). The idea of a level 24 farmer running around with inferior stats compared to his party members but with stats still high enough to wipe the floor with a platoon of 3rd level fighters is inherently funny but my friend went further and thought of a reason why the gods had recruited the ultimate farmer. He decided that they realized that in addition to all kinds of extreme heroes the party would also need some common sense at its disposal and that the role of the farmer was to remind the others of simple and safe common sense solutions instead of heroics in every situation.
Posted by: Tanka Mar 19 2007, 01:10 AM
Hm.
That's actually kinda interesting.
I wouldn't play it, but interesting nonetheless.
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