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Posted by: PlutoNick Nov 3 2003, 07:27 PM

I started playing Shadowrun 1.5 months ago. After 5 sessions, our GM rules out the rule that Cyber eyes image magnification reduces target numbers as an image scope would. So instead of having a 2 target number in medium range, my weapon specialist has 4.

In essence he loses part of his combat expertise, his years of training went down the drain, not to mention his 7000 nuyen of image magn cyberware. Instead of being Hardboiled's Tequila, Die Hard's John McLane, instead of being the neoWilliam Tell v2.0, Robin Digital Hood, he becomes one third of the three stooges, bozzo the clown if you like.

Furthermore, he says that any shot in long range suffers a -1 penalty in power rating.

Please, help me reverse his decision. Tell me some good points in order to make him understand, to see the light. If anything else fails, humiliate him so when he sees this threat, he will bow his head in humiliation and make US weapon specialists, the pride of UCAS that of any evil megacorp will fear.

Posted by: Req Nov 3 2003, 07:31 PM

http://invision.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=1588&hl=

That -1 to power at long range seems kinda annoying, but you know I have to go with your GM on the rest of it.

Posted by: PlutoNick Nov 3 2003, 07:36 PM

you are ruining everything man. If you agree with that despicable being that I have to call GM every saturday, then please, keep your opinion to yourself. If you are GMing I hope your PCs kill every puny NPCs of your at extreme range every time!!


Straight from the official shadowrun faq

--
Are you going to publish a Shadowrun, Fourth Edition?
What, are you trying to say that Shadowrun, Third Edition isn't perfect?!
No, we have no plans for SR4 at this time.
--

How dare you disregard our bible? I am sure you are a D&D player.

Posted by: PlutoNick Nov 3 2003, 07:38 PM

If you are Spiros, my GM, you will never hear the end of this

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 3 2003, 07:40 PM

How were you getting a TN of 2 at medium range, pray tell? The only way to get below 4 with a scope is if your GM allows a laser sight to stack, which still only yields a 3.
As for cybereye magnification... any idea why he forbade them? I'm not understanding the problems here.
The -1 in power is icky, yes, but arguably realistic and rarely a problem, I'd say.

~J

edit: Straight from the SR3 rulebook: "In other words, if something in these rules doesn't quite fit or make sense to you, feel free to change it. If you come up with a game mechanic that you think works better—go for it!"

Page 38, BBB, "The Abstract Nature of Rules"

Posted by: Tanka Nov 3 2003, 07:48 PM

A TN2 at medium is a bit low, methinks. No matter how much training you have, it's still a shot from the hip. At short range I can see TN2 only because of a few pieces of wiz ware, other than that you have no clue where it's going (Guncam and Image Link aside.). Now, taking the time to line up your shots is another story.

If you want the TN2 at Medium, work on it yourself. I won't tell you how, but don't come whining to us when your GM makes a rule that makes sense to him. It's a house rule, and, therefore, is only applicable when he GMs. If you so stringently want it repealed, find out a way to abuse it yourself, so that way he'll either edit it or remove it entirely.

Posted by: Bearclaw Nov 3 2003, 07:48 PM

The rules, as written, don't allow a smartgun and image magnification at the same time. I'm sure your GM has a problem with the TN of 2. If he follows the rules as written, you'll have a TN of 4 either way, right?

Either the base TN of 4 because your magnification knocks off the penalty for long range, or:
TN of 4 because 6 -2 for the smartgun = 4.

Posted by: PlutoNick Nov 3 2003, 07:49 PM

here is how i get a 2 tn from medium range.

-2 from smartlink
and my img magnification cybereyes rating 3, reduce any range 3 stages. so long and medium become short range tn 4 (-2) = 2

"In other words, if something in these rules doesn't quite fit or make sense to you, feel free to change it. If you come up with a game mechanic that you think works better—go for it!"

My image magnfication cybereyes and the help I get from aiming, certainly fit very well and make sense to me and to the Street Samurai friend I got [His name is Red Baron and he is furious with the recent changes as well]

Posted by: RedBaron Nov 3 2003, 07:49 PM

Well the solution is to try to shoot the GM in real life with a submachine when he is in medium range and see how difficult it is... (after that maybe find a new GM is needed... but it's the best way i think... plus the new GM wont abuse the rules for sure)

Posted by: Tanka Nov 3 2003, 07:51 PM

It's stated many times in many books that Smartlink is not compatible with Image Mag and many other types of vision. A lot of things that also give you -TN also say they don't work with Smartlink. Your Vision Mag may make Long seem like Short, but not while using the Smartlink.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 3 2003, 07:52 PM

Well, given that the rules explicitly state that bonuses from magnification and smartlink don't stack... if he won't let the eyemag work at all then I'd question that, but your TN at Medium is going to be 4 anyway.

~J

Posted by: Tanka Nov 3 2003, 07:54 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 3 2003, 07:55 PM

You're right. I forgot the TN for medium range.

~J

Posted by: PlutoNick Nov 3 2003, 07:55 PM

Red Baron take it easy. I think we were wrong all along.

If vision magnification works the same as an imaging scope, then you can't use a smartlink, is that correct?

Still, I prove that the GM instead of checking the rulebook, he arbitrarily made a house rule. SR3 is flawless after all. The faq was right.

So, now I only need to abuse vision magnification without smartlink as tank suggested.

Does vision magnification work while holding two guns?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 3 2003, 07:58 PM

Yes, it does. If you aren't going dual-gun, go with a Smartlink and Rangefinder for 2/3/4/5 TNs (IIRC); if you are, stick with the eyemag and fire away.
Keep in mind the penalties for using two firearms, though.

~J

Posted by: Req Nov 3 2003, 08:03 PM

Posted by: PlutoNick Nov 3 2003, 08:06 PM

Don't tell this to my GM but I dont think it should.

If vision magnif works as image scopes, and it would be very difficult to use two image scopes while going dual-gun. Therefore vision magnif shouldn't work, or at least that is what the GM will claim, unless of course I am forgetting some rules detail.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 3 2003, 08:09 PM

I completely agree. It makes more sense that smartlinks would work with two guns than magnification of any sort. However, I don't think they thought to specifically forbid the latter, whereas they did think of the former.

~J

Posted by: RedBaron Nov 3 2003, 08:13 PM

I think it should work cause u dont magnify the guns u magnify the target (now if u fire at 2 different targets ok...)

Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 3 2003, 08:14 PM

The best combo is to have both smartlink and image magnification. You only really need Smartlink-II if you plan on using grenade launchers (or really want that TN of 3 at long range), so you can even save a little bit of by going with the basic system instead.

Back on the subject of why they don't stack. A loaded out gun which could use both systems would have the following TNs. (smartlink + rangefinder + rangefinder on gun + image mag 3)

Short 2, Medium 2, Long 1, Extreme 0.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 3 2003, 08:16 PM

TN 3 at long range? How?
But yes, even though they don't stack there are valid reasons for having both Smartlinks and magnification.

~J

Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 3 2003, 08:17 PM

Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 3 2003, 08:23 PM

Posted by: nezumi Nov 3 2003, 08:23 PM

PlutoNick, I think you're my new favorite person to read posts from...

Without debating whether the rules justify your statement or not, I'd have to side with your GM because of the basic fact that he is the GM. His job is to be the final judge (period). When RPGs turn into democracies, they turn into messes, especially with people like you who want to be able to blow the eyelashes off a fly at eight hundred yards. If you have a problem with it, than I recommend two things. 1) Talk with your GM like a normal human being, no humiliating, no whining and no shouting or insults. Write out why you think it should be changed rules wise and balance wise (the second one is very important). Discuss it out of game, when he has time to talk. If he says 'no', respect it and drop it forever FOREVER (or at least for a month). 2) Get a new GM. If you really can't stand him, I recommend YOU try running the game. I'm sure he'd enjoy a break, it's hard work GMing. Don't be mean about it, though, we're all gentle people. Simply express that this is not the sort of game you'd like to play, with your being vulnerable to small arms fire and all that, and start working on setting up a game you would enjoy.

However, I think you'll find that, when it comes down to it, this isn't such a horrible setup. It sounds like your GM is interested in keeping things fair and realistic. If you feel like your character is suffering because you previously were not aware of his house rule, tell him and see if he'll let you get the money and essence back for your eyes. But otherwise I'd say stick with it and learn to live with the fact that sometimes the GM will not agree with you rules-wise, and that's his job. Your job is to accept his rules and move on so you both can enjoy the game.

Posted by: nezumi Nov 3 2003, 08:25 PM

Oh, almost forgot... Your character is not totally wasted. The SLII setup is best for short and medium range, and doesn't rely on magnification. However, for medium to extreme range, the best setup is a scope with an extreme range laser, giving you (still) a TN of 3, even at the farthest range. So if you have SLII AND mag vision AND the laser, no matter how far the target, the TN is always 3 or below.

Posted by: Ed_209a Nov 3 2003, 08:31 PM

Pluto, I wouldn't let you use both SG and cyber mag vision either.

HOwever, if you had a SG link or a laser on the weapon, I would let you take the mag vision bonuses as if it were a riflescope.

But, in the end, it's not my game.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 3 2003, 08:37 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 3 2003, 08:39 PM

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 3 2003, 08:47 PM

Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 3 2003, 08:56 PM

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 3 2003, 09:07 PM

Nothing stacks with anything, except (obviously) Smartlink(-2) with Rangefinder. But if you've got Vision Magnification-3 and a Smartlink(-2), you can get the "scope" bonuses, OR you can use the Smartlink(-2) bonuses.

I wasn't trying to say this is a good way of ruling it or anything. I just wanted to mention it, since people were talking about different ways of house ruling the situation.

Posted by: kevyn668 Nov 4 2003, 02:40 AM

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 4 2003, 02:51 AM

I guess im the only one that housed ruled that to use a scope, you have to of decleared an aim action before hand.

Posted by: Shadow Nov 4 2003, 03:05 AM

Heres an idea. Use the rules as written.

House rules more often than not are created to cover a specific situation and don't really cover all that apply.

The -1 power at long range is just dumb (imho) why fix something that isn't broken? And if changing it doesn't matter because you change it for everyone than why change it? (More book keeping again)

My advice to you man is to tell your GM to stick to the rules. SG doesn't stack with anything. It sounds like you weren't following them before but oh well. It's tough but there have been some good ideas above, read them and do them, but kill the lame house rules.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2003, 03:10 AM

Posted by: Andvare Nov 4 2003, 03:46 AM

Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 4 2003, 03:51 AM

Scopes are for snipers. Unless, that is, you're using an ultrasound scope and goggles. Those are a bit different, I believe.

Posted by: Glyph Nov 4 2003, 04:48 AM

By the way, according to the CC, you can't use any targeting or imaging accessories when using two guns at once. So, you can't use a smartlink or vision magnification when using two guns.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 4 2003, 04:52 AM

My GMs always just let dual guns go with one Smartlink. Different colored crosshairs or somesuch.

Just a house rule, though. Don't go saying it's canon, because it sure as crap isn't.

Posted by: Diesel Nov 4 2003, 06:27 AM

Posted by: Nindaru Nov 4 2003, 06:39 AM

Posted by: Diesel Nov 4 2003, 06:59 AM

Sounds splendid to me.

Unless you want to go hardcore Raygun-esque, but I have a nagging suspicion that that is best left to my campaigns.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 4 2003, 07:27 AM

I must admit that I'm surprised to hear that even .50BMG rounds penetrate better at very long ranges. And after looking at the tables mentioned there, I am very curious as to how armor piercing rounds manage at different ranges. Anyhow...

The Field Manual only talks about penetration of structural materials. With all the rounds, penetration is enhanced most by range against materials like sand bags, earth, pine board, etc. Against cinder blocks or concrete, this effect is much smaller or non-existant. The only round for which the FM shows a table for range/material/penetration, the 7.62x51mm Ball , seems to penetrate cinder blocks best at 100 meters, and penetration of concrete does not significantly change with range (up to 200 meters, that is).

All the other data seem to reinforce the view that against rigid or thin layers of armor, the shorter the range the better (at least down to 100 meters). You need (a lot) more rounds to penetrate concrete with a M2HB at longer ranges, etc.

A human being is a thick, semi-fluid object. The less the bullet penetrates of it, the better. The optimum situation is very close, where a bullet still has almost all of it's muzzle energy left, if a bullet only slightly overpenetrates, so that all of that energy is transferred into the target. Thus, against a living creature, any of the weapons and ammunition mentioned in the FM-90-10-1 are at their most leathal at as short a range as possible. For more proof of this, see http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/pmrb.html (once again from Raygun's site) and read through the bits about the terminal ballistics of 5.56x45mm NATO Ball rounds and the West German 7.62x51mm NATO Ball. (I'm guessing you'll know most of this already, but some people might not. And it's worth mentioning anyway, since it goes towards the "damage potential" bit of reducing Power at long ranges.)

The other medium the penetration of which is important to SR players is body armor, which is extremely thin (compared to any of the materials mentioned in the FM). Additionally, the penetration of body armor is a rather binary thing -- the bullet either goes through, or it stops cold on the outside. The data I've seen (mainly the NIJ documents which can be found on http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun) indicates that it is very, very rare for a bullet to penetrate some but not all of a suit of armor.

Because of this, of the mediums mentioned in the document, body armor is most like concrete, but even more extreme. And, would you have guessed it, concrete is the medium with which the FM shows there's least advantage in penetration as range gets longer. In fact, like I mentioned above, the FM indicates that the shorter the range the better against such a material. The NIJ documents also indicate that bullets penetrate body armor best at short ranges.

So, against many (or most) structural materials (of the world in 2000), firearms do seem to have worse penetration capabilities at short range. However, in Shadowrun, breaching structural materials is a very uncommon use of firearms (at least it seems to be in my games), and against the kinds of threats most commonly faced by firearm wielders range is not an advantage but a disadvantage.

[Edit]I just LUUUUV going hardcore, but I know I haven't got what it takes to be Raygun-esque. But if you can find a good counter-argument for what I wrote above, I'll take your word for this.[/Edit]

Posted by: Kurukami Nov 4 2003, 04:36 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2003, 04:41 PM

No, it says you can have a pad in each hand, so when the GM says your right arm has been cut off you can use your left. It doesn't mean you can use two guns at the same time; as a matter of fact, I might even give penalties as the crosshair tries to track two guns at the same time. Ever tried to use a mouse and a trackpad at the same time on the same computer?

~J

Posted by: tisoz Nov 4 2003, 04:45 PM

Posted by: Ed_209a Nov 4 2003, 04:49 PM

That TM also mainly refers to the 5.56mm round impacting fairly rigid objects.

If you presume that a bullet does not change at all after an impact, then max penetration will be at the muzzle, where velocity is maximum.

However, the 5.56mm NATO round has two velocity threshholds that affect it's performance.

If it hits an object fast enough, it will break into many smaller fragments, essentially exploding on impact. If the round is moving slower than above, but faster than another critical velocity, the bullet will snap in half.

These velocity threshholds exist for all ammo, but are different depending on size and construction. Since the bullet deformation depends on target resistance, the values will probably be a bit lower when hitting something like a wall compared to a person or a sandbag.

Posted by: Siege Nov 4 2003, 04:55 PM

Actually, it might help instinctive shooting at close (intimate) ranges.

Instead of tracking a laser sight, a floating smartlink reticle is probably easier to see and would help the: Is gun on target? Yes/No resolution.

Using two guns on one target is infinitely easier than trying to engage seperate targets in your field of vision, especially if you're not worried about aiming so much as putting rounds in center mass.

Not to derail the tangent on well-explored threads...

-Siege

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2003, 04:59 PM

It all depends on how exactly the smartlink works. It's entirely possible that once you introduce a second gun into a system designed for a single gun, the crosshair will no longer have any relation to the actual target of either gun. Strange things happen when you give more input than a system was designed for.

~J

Posted by: Siege Nov 4 2003, 05:06 PM

Yeah, we're dealing with strict hypotheticals.

"If the system works like this, then we can do A and B."

"But, if the system works like this, then we can't do A, but we can do B and C."



-Siege

Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 4 2003, 05:06 PM

The best use for the dual induction pad is when you're using twin SMGs. Take a pair of Ingram Smartguns with custom grips and you can deliver a burst with each for no recoil penalties during the round (as opposed to the +3 you'd get for doing the same with just one gun). Not to mention double ammo.

Posted by: Bearclaw Nov 4 2003, 05:31 PM

Someone mentioned that laser sights don't stack with Scopes/Vision mag. That's not correct is it? 'Cause it's silly and wrong if it is and the rule will be ignored in my game. Not that anyone in my game has thought of that yet And hopefully they don't read it here.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 4 2003, 05:38 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2003, 05:43 PM

The best part about dual SMGs with smartlinks is, if they do in fact accept both inputs, the fact that you've got both ammo counters counting down really quickly in your field of vision, and then you've got that cool effect as you pop both clips at once.

~J

Posted by: spotlite Nov 4 2003, 06:02 PM

I'd say if you have 2 smartlinks implanted and you have a weapon in each hand, then you only get -1 from them instead of -2 because of the distraction of 2 crosshairs, even different coloured ones (you have to remember which one is which hand in order to draw a bead).

But it would be an on the spot house rule if it came up, because very few characters that I know of have taken the double smartlinks implant (which, by the way, I'd buy piecemeal without a second simrig or display link) so it isn't likely to come up.

I had a load of other stuff I was gonna waffle about but I've edited it out because frankly, it was all more 'here's my house rule' stuff, and didn't add anything to the discussion.

Bottom line, having 2 smartlinks and firing 2 weapons at once isn't specifically covered by the rules, so your GM or you if you're it will have to come up with something to cover it. There's been loads of opinions posted, mine included, and some of them brilliant (I really like the scope+aim rule. Wouldn't count it for cyber zoom, but certainly for a scope because you have to physically lift it to your eye). Go for it!

Posted by: Siege Nov 4 2003, 06:04 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2003, 06:16 PM

Issues of Time.

~J, still learning proper gun terminology

Posted by: Siege Nov 4 2003, 06:34 PM

Posted by: spotlite Nov 4 2003, 06:39 PM

ok seige, I'll bite - what's wrong with clips? Genuinly. I only know what I've seen on TV and in SR - we don't have guns here! The only gun I ever owned was a 12 gauge shotgun (and not one of your fancy high tech pump actions either, no, a regalar two trigger double barrelled!), so all I really know anything about is the break action, saftey, and cartridge gagues of one specific weapon. Heh. Shotguns(break action)2(4). Yeah, I was pretty good according to my dad who I outshot regularly.

Anyway. Enough of shotguns, tell me about clips and magazines...?

Posted by: Siege Nov 4 2003, 06:44 PM

Technically that rectangular metal box that holds bullets is called a magazine.

Note I say "technically" since the term "clip" has become so ingrained that even people who handle guns professionally -- cops, for example, refer to the damned things as "clips".

I couldn't even begin to guess why it's a pet peeve since I don't handle weapons as a profession.

-Siege

Edit: A "clip" is a strip of metal that holds the bullets in place and is fed into the weapon. I _think_ the M1 Garand actually uses a clip to feed bullets.

http://www.civilianmarksmanship.com/accessoryhtml/acc10pockets.html

Look at how the bullets are contained in the "clip."

Now, look at:

http://www.valtrousa.com/photogallery/clip.html

That big thing on the right side is a loaded magazine (even if the manufacturer lists it as a clip.html)

Posted by: Ed_209a Nov 4 2003, 06:47 PM

A clip is a piece of metal that grips the back end of your set of 4-5 rounds. You push the entire clip into your rifle, and cannot add more rounds until all the rounds in the clip were gone, and the rifle ejects the empty clip.

A magazine is a (usually removable) box that holds the rounds before loading them into the weapon.

Posted by: Bearclaw Nov 4 2003, 06:59 PM

Nice, I was going to say that.
We all got that term from watching Combat, didn't we?

Posted by: Req Nov 4 2003, 07:05 PM

So is there a special name for an internal magazine (as in most shotguns) to differentiate it from the removable kind? Other than "internal magazine" I mean.

Posted by: Bearclaw Nov 4 2003, 07:08 PM

I don't think so.
The clip in question is the clip of ammo used in the M-1 Garand. If you've ever played Medal of Honor, you know how it can occasionally be a pain in the ass.
I'm sure a similar system was used in other weapons but I don't personally know.
I believe the internal magazine on a shotgun has no other name.

Posted by: spotlite Nov 4 2003, 10:23 PM

OK, thanks. Interesting bit of trivia!

Posted by: Shadow Nov 5 2003, 12:12 AM

Posted by: Fortune Nov 5 2003, 01:12 AM

Posted by: Siege Nov 5 2003, 02:07 AM

Posted by: Tziluthi Nov 5 2003, 03:03 AM

Shadow, seeing that this is the thread for pedantics, I have to say that rifle only has one 'f' in it. :)

Posted by: Shadow Nov 5 2003, 03:05 AM

Posted by: Zazen Nov 5 2003, 03:18 AM

Posted by: Nindaru Nov 5 2003, 03:38 AM

Posted by: Shadow Nov 5 2003, 03:45 AM

Nindaru,

If I am not mistaken, Zazen had the [/sarcasm] tag on. It may not have come out very well, but I think he was making the point you just made.

I know in my group (when I had a group) I had a strict rule about pausing the game to dispute a rule. We didn't. You don't like my calls, tough cookies, talk to me after the game will change for the next time. Under no circumstances did we discuss during the game though. It can really kill a game to get bogged down in a rule argument.

Posted by: Nindaru Nov 5 2003, 03:48 AM

Damnit! Why do I always miss the /sarcasm tag?!?

Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 5 2003, 04:28 AM

Posted by: Tanka Nov 5 2003, 04:36 AM

Hardly. Invisible ink!

Posted by: Nindaru Nov 5 2003, 04:53 AM

Ok, should I assume you are being sarcastic as well?

Posted by: Fortune Nov 5 2003, 05:23 AM

Posted by: Nindaru Nov 5 2003, 06:22 AM

Ack! More BIG words! Blast my shallow vocabulary!

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 5 2003, 07:41 AM

Posted by: Fortune Nov 5 2003, 07:42 AM

Now that's pedantic!

Posted by: Birdy Nov 5 2003, 11:48 AM

Posted by: tisoz Nov 5 2003, 02:27 PM

I don't see the price for a magazine in any of my SR books, but I see the cost of a clip is 5 nuyen.

Posted by: DigitalMage Nov 5 2003, 03:50 PM

Doesn't SR use the term Clip to refer to a removeable magazine and Magazine to refer to an internal magazine, i.e. where you load the rounds in manually one at a time?

If so it was technically correct (in terms of SR) to use the term Clip when refering to SMGs.

Posted by: Req Nov 5 2003, 04:04 PM

Those are the correct terms according to SR3.

Posted by: spotlite Nov 5 2003, 04:15 PM

Posted by: PlutoNick Nov 6 2003, 08:47 PM