Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Alamais(e) vs. Lofwyr...

Posted by: Req Nov 3 2003, 08:25 PM

What information is out there about Lofwyr, back in the Fourth World? The dragons sourcebook doesn't have anything to say about him except the references in the Alamaise section about how much he hates his brother...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 3 2003, 08:41 PM

As I remember, he's never mentioned by name, just constant references to "Alamais(e)' brother". He was a wimp in the fourth world.

~J

Posted by: Jari_Kafghan Nov 3 2003, 08:59 PM

So you are saying Loafy has an inferiority complex that he is makeing up for in the 6th world?

Somehow that seems right.... And amuses me.

Posted by: Req Nov 3 2003, 09:01 PM

Well, he seems to be compensating just fine...

Posted by: Senchae Nov 3 2003, 09:08 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

As I remember, he's never mentioned by name, just constant references to "Alamais(e)' brother". He was a wimp in the fourth world.

I don't think he was a wimp in the 4th world. He kicked Alamainse's ass and kicked him out of their homeland. Other than that, he was just geographically distant from the goings on that the ED world dealt with.

Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 3 2003, 09:27 PM

Lowfyr's only real claim to fame in the Sixth World is the fact that he's the CEO and owner of the world's largest megacorporation. Without that, he'd probably just be another two-bit player in dragon circles. Why Dunkelzahn validated his "position" by awarding him with such a valuable prize is beyond me, especially considering that for all intents and purposes that we've seen so far, Lowfyr's opinion about humanity and preparing for the Scourge is all but about the exact opposite of Dunkelzahn's.

Posted by: Jari_Kafghan Nov 3 2003, 09:35 PM

Bandersnatch -

Only claim? *laughs* Dragons learn to exploit whatever resources at available to them. In the sixth world the greatest resource is money. And the biggest money maker is the mega corp. He got himself the greatest megacorp for the pure fact he knew it would be powerful and would aid him in finding ways to handle the horrors better then having his head stuck up his fourth world butt. He has shown initiative and a forward thinking grasp. He hasn't shown any of his great draconic abilities, but why should he have to. That costs him energy and time. Spending corp rescources is signifigantly cheaper and has a higher cost to profit ratio for success. IMNSHO he he grasps the sixth world more then any other two dragons still alive. And even moreso then Dunkie when he was alive.

Posted by: Synner Nov 3 2003, 09:48 PM

Maybe Dunklezahn realized that with just a little attitude adjustment Lofwyr could be an even more effective force for change than the Big D himself exactly because of what Jari mentioned...

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 3 2003, 09:57 PM

Maybe it's a case of Lofwyr, just quietly moving pieces till his fianl move where stomps on the problem?

It's what he likes to do no?

Posted by: Req Nov 3 2003, 10:22 PM

QUOTE (The Frumious Bandersnatch @ Nov 3 2003, 01:27 PM)

Well, the Jewel signifies the title of Loremaster, right? The keeper of Draconic knowledge? Remember that Lofwyr is a intelligence-gatherer like nobody else. It's been speculated that he (through SK) is basically recording and monitoring the entirety of matrix traffic in Europe. He's probably better informed than any other individual in the 6th world.

Who better to keep your knowledge safe?

'Course, maybe Dunk just wanted Hestaby to fight Lofwyr for it.

Posted by: Ancient History Nov 3 2003, 10:37 PM

The title of Loremaster is not dependant on also being Keeper of the Jewel of memroy.

Posted by: Req Nov 3 2003, 10:44 PM

Oh. Well, color me confused, then. I mostly skimmed Survival of the Fittest but I thought that was a big ol' plot point in there?

Posted by: Ancient History Nov 3 2003, 11:00 PM

I think the possession of the Jewel has become associated witht he position, but the two are not mutal.

Posted by: ialdabaoth Nov 3 2003, 11:56 PM

Also, if you read the line from D's will, it looks like he was hoping that possessing the Jewel would create a sort of 'change of heart' in Lofwyr - that seeing the sum of Draconic history would impart upon Lofwyr how precious all creatures are, dragon or (meta)human.

Posted by: Ancient History Nov 3 2003, 11:59 PM

I would not limit the Jewel to Draconic memory, and I think it was more a change of perspective.

Posted by: mfb Nov 4 2003, 12:46 AM

it's still my opinion that lofwyr is, compared to most greats, a rash gambler. where the other GDs are (it can be assumed) building up or maintaining rock-solid bases of power that even a major disaster like the Crash cannot seriously disable, lofwyr is jumping into the financial thing headfirst. yes, saeder-krupp is an incredibly powerful base of power; but shadowrun's history is chock full of powerful corporations falling to the vagrancies of the financial world. dragons are effectively immortal; there is no real reason for them to attempt to amass their power in a short period of time. moreover, it can be argued that it's dangerous to do so--if you don't take the proper time to test your power base, discover its weaknesses, and put guards in place against them, you're going to find it crumbling beneath you in the face of the unexpected. it's like building a house without a foundation--it's faster, but nobody does it because the first hard rain will collapse it completely.

building power that quickly also leaves a lot of room for other players--GDs, IEs, etc.--to sabotage your operation. do you think SK hasn't fallen prey to sleeper agents and the like yet because lofwyr is too smart for them, or because the other players' plans haven't reached fruition yet?

in the end, it boils down to the fact that age and treachery beat youth and energy every time. lofwyr's got the intellect, but he's not playing a deep enough game.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Nov 4 2003, 12:59 AM

Aden has already proved he can best Lofwyr in some ways.

Moving at the speed of tech is Lofwyr's "advantage" but it can be a weakness, too.

Dunkelzahn hints that not all dragons can accept or deal with the new age; we'll see if Lofwyr can reconcile both ages, as Celedyr is learning to.

Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 4 2003, 01:47 AM

QUOTE (Jari_Kafghan @ Nov 3 2003, 03:35 PM)

Only claim? *laughs* Dragons learn to exploit whatever resources at available to them. In the sixth world the greatest resource is money. And the biggest money maker is the mega corp. He got himself the greatest megacorp for the pure fact he knew it would be powerful and would aid him in finding ways to handle the horrors better then having his head stuck up his fourth world butt. He has shown initiative and a forward thinking grasp. He hasn't shown any of his great draconic abilities, but why should he have to. That costs him energy and time. Spending corp rescources is signifigantly cheaper and has a higher cost to profit ratio for success. IMNSHO he he grasps the sixth world more then any other two dragons still alive. And even moreso then Dunkie when he was alive.

The first part of what you said is exactly why I said what I said -- if he DIDN'T obtain the corporation as soon as he did, he WOULD be just another ho-hum dragon in the Sixth World, just like he was in the Fourth World.

As for his plans to use the megacorp for that originally, I don't see why he would feel he would need to -- he seemed to survive the last Scourge (and most likely the one before that, too) just fine. The things he's doing with SK is devestating the environment, creating tons of places for toxic spirits and other less-than-desireables that will likely only aid the Horrors when they get here. Everything I can remember reading about him scoring SK points at greed, plain and simple. What dragon doesn't want a fantastic hoard, especially an emasculated one from the Fourth World?

Was it a good move to secure a corporation like he did? Of course! That's why he's now the biggest, baddest dragon in the Sixth World. Without it, does it put him on even (if not less) footing than some of the other greats? Sure does. Which, again, is why I said what I said. And as for him being more in touch with the Sixth World than any other two dragons? Please -- I think that title goes to Hestaby a lot more than it does him. Lowfyr basically just got really lucky with SK. But Hestaby is giving him a major run for his money WITHOUT the world's largest corporation and only with little more than a handful of gypsies and Native Americans at her bec and call. Nuff said.

When it comes right down to it, his main motivation for securing SK was to get back at his brother, plain and simple. Does that mean he's not going to use it for other things? Of course not. I never said otherwise.

Posted by: Abstruse Nov 4 2003, 02:10 AM

But he did obtain the corp. He recognized that the real players in the 6th World were the megacorps and wanted a chunk of it himself. Governments hold next to no power in this world compared to the megacorps, who can buy and sell 90% of the countries in the world. So he went after the biggest prize in the game. And if you think that SK is the only corp he has interests in, I'd like to point out that even Dunkelzahn with his hatred of what Aztechnology was doing with the blood magic still had enough shares to buy himself a board seat...

Besides, Lofwyr didn't just go after some two-bit corp, he went after Saeder-Krupp. Manufacturing, industry, etc. are its primary focus. More or less whatever happens, those industries are going to still be profitable. Even if the Matrix goes down from another Crash, you're still going to need a car, a house, a military to protect you, etc. Renraku might take a huge hit from another Crash and probably even go the way of Fuchi, but SK'll still be around. Limping slightly, but still there.

And if you're preparing for a worldwide disaster, what better thing to use to prepare for them but a corporation built on heavy industry?

The Abstruse One

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 4 2003, 02:27 AM

Everyone and everything needs heavy industry. Lofwyr brought what is the foundations of the corperate world.

I remember reading in i think never trust an elf that Meltran components were in almost everything Meltran being a sub of SK

Posted by: JÃ©rÃ©mie Nov 4 2003, 02:45 AM

QUOTE (Kanada Ten)

Aden has already proved he can best Lofwyr in some ways.

Where ? 'don't remember this one

Posted by: Synner Nov 4 2003, 09:33 AM

Jérémie - Aden has out manuevered Lofwyr in the Middle East in the past (see DotSW) and depending on who is behind Saied Bey's "troubles" he may be doing it again.

Just for reference, and for those that think Lofwyr is simply the cerebral type, I'd like to remind everyone that he has physically thrashed 2 other great dragons (Kaltenstein and Nachtmeister) in combat since 2011.

Regarding the discussion on his powerbase, I'm starting to wonder if people actually read the news in the Lofwyr chapter of DotSW. S-K is a tool like any other (well, not like any other) and if Mina Graff-Beloit has it right Lofwyr's power in the political sphere is about to get a HUGE boost... not to say that that isn't a means to an end too.

His real problem is the number of enemies he's made on the way up...

Posted by: Sepherim Nov 4 2003, 03:46 PM

QUOTE (Synner)

Just for reference, and for those that think Lofwyr is simply the cerebral type, I'd like to remind everyone that he has physically thrashed 2 other great dragons (Kaltenstein and Nachtmeister) in combat since 2011.

And, IIRC, not only has he killed other two GD, but he's been the only one to kill any of them.
If that ain't enough, plus his enormous network of intel gatherers and owning and keeping S-K (from other megas and dragons), he had enough influence among the IEs to be one of the Tir Princes, even if he now doesn't hold the place any more.

QUOTE

His real problem is the number of enemies he's made on the way up...

It usually comes together with success, which is one of the best indicators of Lofwyr's real power, both in the human and draconic worlds.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Nov 5 2003, 12:56 AM

Aden might be - in part - responsible for the end of the Second Ottoman Jihad (EuroWar2). He plays the game with a light touch and chooses the "magic moment" to strike (total opposite of Alamais, neh?).

As to Lofwyr, Toxics, and Horrors... The Horrors can only feed off of misery they create or inspire. Some Elves of the Fourth World mutated their bodies into a state of constant pain (Ritual of Thorns created by Alachia, natch) to insure the Horrors could not feed from them. Perhaps Lofwyr has a new plan to survive the Scourge...

Another possibility on that is he simply felt he had time to bring it all in line, but had other concerns at the moment. Perhaps that will change now.

Posted by: Abstruse Nov 5 2003, 01:36 AM

As far as I know, Lofwyr's only killed one Great, Nachtmeister. Kaltenstein lived through his fight with Lofwyr. Unless you know of someone else I'm forgetting...

The Abstruse One

Posted by: Fortune Nov 5 2003, 01:55 AM

I was under the impression the it was Alamais that lived through his encounter with Loffy, not Kaltenstein.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Nov 5 2003, 01:57 AM

Kaltenstein lived, and so did Alamais.

Cold Stone (Kaltenstein) is hidding out, but he's got a picture by Marco (for SoE?).

Posted by: Synner Nov 5 2003, 02:20 AM

QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Nov 5 2003, 01:57 AM)

Kaltenstein lived, and so did Alamais

Alamaise and Kaltenstein both lived through their encounters with Lofwyr (although the latter is only a relatively new known fact for the English audience since the FASA version of the Germany sb had him dead, the truth however turned out to be far more interesting and involved both Nebelherr and Feuerschwinge).

Nachtmeister was apparently killed in a very public air duel over his hometown of Frankfurt.

When doing the tally I didn't count Alamais(e) because they've clashed so many times there must be a reason Lofwyr has let him live.

QUOTE

Cold Stone (Kaltenstein) is hidding out, but he's got a picture by Marco (for SoE?).

Please point me in the right direction I haven't seen it yet...

Posted by: Kanada Ten Nov 5 2003, 02:29 AM

http://www.djurdjevic.de/site.php?mode=inkwork&show=30. Should have just posted it first.

Posted by: Synner Nov 5 2003, 02:34 AM

Thanks Kanada, I'd actually been by it a couple of times and never noticed the name. Given that it isn't among his most recent work I'd assume it might be a DidS2 or other German book. It's unlikely its for SoE though.

Posted by: JÃ©rÃ©mie Nov 5 2003, 03:59 AM

QUOTE (Synner)

Jérémie - I like to remind everyone that he has physically thrashed 2 other great dragons (Kaltenstein and Nachtmeister) in combat since 2011.

And beaten, nearly to death, his little brother too. And trashed an IE. Nope he's not the cerebral type

Posted by: Abstruse Nov 5 2003, 09:42 AM

Hey, there's no proof that Glasgan was an IE...just that his dad was. God I hope they killed the little bastard off this time...

For us non-German speakers out there, is there anything we're missing between the Germany sourcebook and Dot6W about the Nebelhurr/Lofwyr/Feuerschwinge/Kaltenstein thing?

The Abstruse One

Posted by: Synner Nov 5 2003, 10:37 AM

Nebelhurr/Lofwyr/Feuerschwinge/Kaltenstein - Not as such. The problem was that there were some discrepancies between the original German info from DidS and the US version of that sourcebook. Namely the guys at FanPro D in the good old days went slightly over the top and had 5 or 6 great dragons running around the AGS after the Awakening, and apparently when FASA did the English language version they decided to pared that down a bit (killed Kaltenstein off). However, this was something that never really trickled back to FanPro D (ie. meaning Kaltenstein continued to be developed in "German canon").

Under FanPro an attempt has been made to bring US and German continuity closer together (basically since DidS2) and when DotSW came round this was obviously going to be a problem. Rather than ignore the inconsistency, the German authors brainstormed some very nice plothooks out of the confusion in such a way that it shed new light on the Kaltenstein vs. Lofwyr & Nebelherr fight from the Germany sb (something that was never mentioned in German material) and also why two of those normally-very-territorial GDs were living so near (Kaltenstein and Feuerschwinge).

There were similar issues with Nebelherr and Schwartzkopf which also got "continuity twists" from their published German versions.

Posted by: Prospero Dec 4 2003, 07:41 AM

I guess this is sort of on the topic, since we're talking about Great Dragons and various cannon stuff - anybody in Europe heard of a dragon (not sure if he or she is great or not) named Kalamona?

Posted by: Fortune Dec 4 2003, 07:52 AM

Sounds like a tentacle monster from some bad anime.

Posted by: shroud Dec 6 2003, 09:24 PM

The trashed IE Jeremie mentions may be Leonardo. In Techobabel Lofwyr waltzes right into Leo's super secret lair and tells him that he shouldn't be playing in Lowyr's domain. Lofwyr poisons Leonardo and destroys all Leo has been working on as a lesson. Leo loses his SOTA matrix advances (which he was selling to Renraku) to his plans to use technology to save humanity from the Scourge.

As a side note I think it is interesting that Hestaby was meeting with Leonardo to discuss how technology can save humanity from the Scourge. They seen to reach an alliance. As soon as Hestaby leaves Lofwyr strikes. Further up the timeline Lofwyr causes a commotion in the Tir and in order to soothe the IE's Hestaby takes his place on the council.
Good cop, bad cop - dragon style?

Posted by: Sepherim Dec 7 2003, 02:57 AM

QUOTE (Prospero)

I guess this is sort of on the topic, since we're talking about Great Dragons and various cannon stuff - anybody in Europe heard of a dragon (not sure if he or she is great or not) named Kalamona?

Nope, never heard about such beast.