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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Old school runs and new rules

Posted by: Vvornth Mar 18 2007, 11:03 PM

So I'm about to dive back into Shadowrun after a 10 year absence. I'm a veteran of Shadowrun 2e and I'm planning to give old campaigns such as Harlequin and Super Tuesday a spin with my new group. However I realize that these old runs might encounter real continuity problem with Shadowrun 4e unless adapted/modded. Adaptions that requires me do do alot of rescripting to a degree that it might sap my enthusiasm or even worse; take away some the magic of the adventures in their original form.

So I'm basically weighing back and forth on what edition of Shadowrun to sink my teeth into for these particular scenarios. While the coninutity is far improved with 3e I at the same time hear that edition is overly complex when it comes to magic for example, which draws me to the more streamlined rules of 4e. Or should I just forget the old adventures and find new material for 4e?

Ideas and/or advice?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Mar 18 2007, 11:08 PM

Define "overly complex"?

My advice is to go with 3rd edition, but I can't give you reasons that address your concerns unless I have a clearer idea of what those are.

~J

Posted by: Vvornth Mar 18 2007, 11:28 PM

Well I play RPGs to tell a story basically, I consider the rules system as a means to an end in that respect, but at the same time I want to utilize the given rules for a system as they are presented.

To me something is "overly complex" (a phrase I took from a thread in the SR4e forum of someone describing 3e magic) when it distracts from this story because players have to look up stats and special rules that are to wide to fit on their charsheets.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Mar 18 2007, 11:55 PM

I think that if you try to adopt a 2nd edition run to 4th edition you're going to have a huge headache. They aren't very compatible at all. You might as well rewrite the whole damn scenario and add "wireless" stuff.

3rd edition is the only practical option.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Mar 19 2007, 12:03 AM

Though I agree with WR, your philosophy of gaming is better served by nWoD or Amber Diceless than either SR.

(Did the person you mention say what exactly they found overly complex?)

~J

Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 19 2007, 12:44 AM

I am running Harlequin in SR4 rules, and have even run SR1 adventures in SR4 rules.

I haven't had any real problem adapting them, nor was it a lot of work

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Mar 19 2007, 12:54 AM

QUOTE (Mistwalker)

I am running Harlequin in SR4 rules, and have even run SR1 adventures in SR4 rules.

I haven't had any real problem adapting them, nor was it a lot of work

But what about needing to add wireless to everything where it was not before?

Posted by: Tanka Mar 19 2007, 01:06 AM

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

QUOTE (Mistwalker @ Mar 18 2007, 07:44 PM)

I am running Harlequin in SR4 rules, and have even run SR1 adventures in SR4 rules.

I haven't had any real problem adapting them, nor was it a lot of work

But what about needing to add wireless to everything where it was not before?

Uh, set it before the Wireless addition?

SR4 is rules as much as history.

Posted by: the_dunner Mar 19 2007, 02:28 AM

QUOTE (Vvornth)

So I'm basically weighing back and forth on what edition of Shadowrun to sink my teeth into for these particular scenarios. While the coninutity is far improved with 3e I at the same time hear that edition is overly complex when it comes to magic for example, which draws me to the more streamlined rules of 4e. Or should I just forget the old adventures and find new material for 4e?

So, it depends upon how much you insist on having the rules pre-scripted and how much you're comfortable flying by the seat of your pants. All three of these approaches are entirely valid ones. It's just a question of what it is you're looking for in a game.

If you're the sort of GM who wants to have everything spelled out, with every "i" dotted and every "t" crossed, then just run 'em using SR2. There are changes between SR2 & SR3 that will change the look and feel of things if that's extremely important to you. (The Skill Web & Grounding are the first two major differences that come to mind.)

If you're the sort of GM who's comfortable with a little lee-way, but you can't imagine Shadowrun without Combat Pools and variable target numbers, then you might want to try SR3. SR3 cleans up a lot of things from SR2. Magic, Decking, and Combat are all still pretty different systems. However, the SR3 implementation of them is a whole lot easier than trying to decide if you want to use the rules out of the SR2 core book or the rules out of VR2. (et al)

If you're the sort of GM for whom the rules are a nice starting point, but ultimately, you feel that they're just there to sort out the random factors in the storyline, then you'll probably want to switch to SR4. For most people who haven't thought Shadowrun in a while, the SR4 system is a little more intuitive to pick up. However, the stat-lines you see in any SR2 book are going to have a very different effect in SR4. The basic attributes have changed and the values of skills have changed as well. (A character who depended upon a 6 skill in SR2 might only have a 3 in SR4.)

For some scenarios -- e.g. Universal Brotherhood -- that wouldn't be a huge problem. There are stats for Insect Spirits in Street Magic. So, you wouldn't need to convert them. For other scenarios -- e.g. Harlequin -- it'd be a bigger problem. Unless you're really flying by the seat of you're pants, you'd probably want to take the time to re-stat a number of key NPCs. There is a http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/wordpress/?p=85 that's freely available. So, that'd help. However, you still might find yourself going through it several times for each scenario.

The wireless matrix vs. wired Matrix is really more of a paradigm shift than anything else. The hacking rules from SR4 work perfectly well with a wired matrix. They're an abstraction, and you just have to accept that first.

Posted by: Link Mar 19 2007, 02:54 AM

If you have your 2nd ed. books still you might as well play the old modules with them, no conversion required.

Posted by: tisoz Mar 19 2007, 04:02 AM

There are some rule changes from SR2 to SR3, but if you were familiar with SR2, you will find way more in common with SR3, so much that you might not even notice some of the changes. The biggest change when I have adapted the olde adventures is converting Firearms skill to Whatever guns the character uses, consolidating Etiquette, and converting Armed Combat to whatever melee weapons the character uses.

I'd like to know how SR3 magic is more complicated than SR4 magic. SR4 is harder to create a character, and there is no way to say the conjuring rules are simpler. If by simpler, they meant homogenized, then maybe.

Posted by: Mistwalker Mar 19 2007, 04:34 AM

The way that I convert older adventures into SR4 is pretty straight foward.

For the grunts in the adventures, you can just replace them with the grunts from SR4.
For the more important NPCs, you can often just replace them with teh sample chars, or more advanced grunts from SR4.

I have been playing them in 2069 without any problems, with wireless. being used, as well as RFID and all the other new toys.

Most of the stories transfer over well, as they as setting, flavor, the plot line. I have found that it takes very little work to bring them over to SR4.

For Harlequin, for Ehran, instead of him being on the Council of Princes, he is reputed to be a power broker in the new government, with no official title or position, but wielding a lot of influence.

Posted by: Vvornth Mar 19 2007, 08:47 AM

Regarding the kind of GM that I am I think the dunner got real close with his 2nd/middle ground archetype.

I am also hesitant to alter old scenarios in a way to make them something they are not such as Mistwalkers suggestion for Ehran. It just wouldn't feel... right, for me. I guess I'm just conservative like that.

Posted by: Platinum Mar 19 2007, 02:34 PM

I am one of a few sr2 hold outs. I use the vr2 rules for decking. It just seems that sr3 lost some of the original grittiness that I really enjoyed in shadowrun. Magic gets a little boost, and cyberware was dialed back a little with body index being added onto essence. I also really preferred being able to ground spells through foci. my biggest beef with sr3 was the initiative change. I liked sr2 init over sr3 ... but I wound up coming up with a more distributed iniative system where slow mages will act in middle of a speedy sammies multiple actions instead of immediately after their first action.