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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Albino Gnome Shaman w/ Excp+Bonus WP
Posted by: Sphynx Nov 4 2003, 08:23 PM
I've always heard alot of talk about the 'munchkin' version of a magic-user was the Albino Gnome Shaman w/ Exceptional Attribute Willpower and Bonus Attribute Willpower. I've also always considered people who thought that to be wasting alot of points on a few WP points that didn't make a huge difference (Just get a Trauma Dampener).
Yesterday I got my friends' character sheet, the one with the Albino Gnome, etc, etc. Admittedly, at 225 karma, you'd expect any character to be pretty powerful. Especially since last game he spent his karma to bond a Force-6 Power Focus that he's been hoarding for a couple of months now. But I had no idea the incredible potential a Willpower 10 gave someone. With only 2 grades of Initiation, he's got an effective Magic rating of 19(!?!?!?) in addition to a Sorcery and Conjuring skill of 10 each (THAT's the advantage to a 10 Willpower). 10 dice for anything without the need for a Pool. Damn.......
To top it off, his Force 5 Ally spirit (also a Willpower 10 and Sorcery skill of 6) tops off the Power Focus for that huge 19 (8+6+5) effective Magic Rating.
I just wanted to say.... I stand corrected. It is definitely an incredible munchkin setup. 
I now have a new goal for my own PC, hats off to http://shadowrun.i-sphynx.com/spirit.htm (the character in a previous thread about the Infirm flaw), our Astral Guardian.
Done with the Rambling, character posted with his permission,
Sphynx
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2003, 08:27 PM
I still say it's a more effective twink for an Otaku, though I'm eyeing Dryads or Wakyambi as possible better options.
~J
Posted by: Artemis Nov 4 2003, 08:34 PM
‘Once you go Gnome— That's what you moan!’
Gah! The one phrase that drives my character entirely insane... and she hears it all of the time from her short little companion on the team. Eh...
Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 4 2003, 08:45 PM
But has he dikoted the ally spirit yet? That'd be the true sign that he has made it into the twink hall of fame 
Posted by: Req Nov 4 2003, 08:50 PM
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) |
| But has he dikoted the ally spirit yet? That'd be the true sign that he has made it into the twink hall of fame |
That just depends whether he's sleeping with it.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2003, 08:59 PM
Some horribly twinked Otaku coming when I get the chance.
~J
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 4 2003, 09:15 PM
been there and stopped short. wanted something playable
Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 4 2003, 09:16 PM
Otaku are easy to twink... twinking them and making them useful for something besides decking is the real challenge 
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 4 2003, 09:21 PM
I went the "face" of a sort. She just doesn't do it in person.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2003, 09:32 PM
Not really. You just make an Otaku Troll.
~J
Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 4 2003, 09:34 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Not really. You just make an Otaku Troll. |
Hand to hand Otaku? That might work fairly well, actually. The big hit is that quickness of 1. Stealth don't work so good.
Posted by: OurTeam Nov 4 2003, 10:06 PM
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| With only 2 grades of Initiation, he's got an effective Magic rating of 19(!?!?!?) |
While you probably already know it, others might not be aware that you should treat him as having a magic rating of 8 for almost everything, including:
* calculating spell pool
* radius of area-affect spells
* the opposed-magic test to correctly assense a masked aura
* the TN for a spirit to oppose the Gnome's banishing test
* fast Astral movement speed (magic x 1000 km/hr)
* the 2D6 roll to avoid magic loss
* temp loss of magic from combat with astral barriers
* maximum Force he can give a Ward
* for determining Focus Addiction
As per canon a Power Focus
| QUOTE (SR3 p. 190) |
| increases the owner's Magic Attribute by its own Force for purposes of determining whether or not Drain does stun or physical and stun (sic) damage, as well as for determining the maximum spirit Force that can be summonded. |
| QUOTE (MitS p. 108) |
| ...acts as a power focus, adding its Force to its master's Magic for purposes of Drain... |
The Gnome experiences Stun conjuring damage when summoning spirits up to force 19, though above force 9 (1.5 x Charisma) he'll be resisting Deadly stun.
The Gnome experiences Stun spellcasting drain when casting spells up to force 19. Though we all know it takes years to learn a high-force spell.
Posted by: Sphynx Nov 4 2003, 11:07 PM
Hence, the Effective comment.
However, since he gets to add that whole +11 to any magic skill roll, he has 21 dice before Spell Pool. That's crazy.
Sphynx
Posted by: BitBasher Nov 4 2003, 11:16 PM
er how? a power focus adds its rating to their spell pool, not directly to their skill. I could be wrong, but I was pretty sure about this. Also they cannot roll more dice than their base skill, so that is somewhat limiting.
Posted by: Sphynx Nov 4 2003, 11:19 PM
Although it acts similarly to a pool, it does not add to a pool. It does limit itself to 1 dice per combat round per force point though. But it can be used in conjunction with the Spell Pool and doesn't have the skill-cap.
Sphynx
Posted by: Artemis Nov 4 2003, 11:22 PM
No, you're right BitBasher.
Core skill of 10 according to the first post.
Then they get +5 dice to their Spell Pool from their Force 5 Ally Spirit. So they can have a first spell every Initiative that has a lot of kick to it, or they can save up for spell defense.
It has advantages, but expendable spell foci and a high spellcasting specialization can be jsut as effective if not even more so. The only ugly thing is when you try to target a spell on a monster with Willpower 10. In such a case I'd resort to my physical manipualtion spells and burn the tiny little fragger. If I had to.
Posted by: Artemis Nov 4 2003, 11:25 PM
1 dice per combat round? According to page 108 of MitS it acts as a bonified power focus. Which means that you get a number of dice equal to its force after every initiative roll. The full amount will refresh after the next roll, but up till then it's a unique pool in itself with the same uses and limitations as the Spell Pool.
Posted by: BitBasher Nov 4 2003, 11:30 PM
| QUOTE |
| only ugly thing is when you try to target a spell on a monster with Willpower 10. |
Posted by: Artemis Nov 4 2003, 11:34 PM
-smile- I'll leave that to the sams of the team to display their expertese in. But that is certainly a good point. Someone mentioned a body 6 Gnome... isn't there a certain point where their diet changes their metahuman classification?
Posted by: OurTeam Nov 5 2003, 12:41 AM
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| Although it acts similarly to a pool, it does not add to a pool. It does limit itself to 1 dice per combat round per force point though. |
| QUOTE (SR3 p. 190) |
| use a power focus's Force dice for Sorcery, Conjuring, or Drain Resistance Tests ...[and] for Spell Defense. These bonus dice may be divided up among the owner's tests each Combat Turn as desired. |
If your GM chooses to use the Focus Addiction rule (MitS p. 45-46), the Albino Gnome is ony a force 5 Expendable Spell Focus away from trouble if he has on both his Sustaining Focus 6 and his Power Focus 6.
Posted by: Lilt Nov 5 2003, 01:10 AM
I still don't think it beats the charisma 12+invoking+channeling+traumadampener shaman... Willpower 10 may be one thing, but immunity to natural weapons providing 10-12 points of hardened armour is another. Especially when you consider using the spirit's storm+storm strike powers...
Do 6S (no armor) to everything within a radus of up-to 600m from a point within your LOS? Once per combat turn? With no chance of drain? It would appear that you have just destroyed a small army... Oops.
[edit]Oh yes: And you can shrug-off light railgun and high-explosive heavy mortar hits[/edit]
Posted by: msoya Nov 5 2003, 02:54 AM
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) | ||
Hand to hand Otaku? That might work fairly well, actually. The big hit is that quickness of 1. Stealth don't work so good. |
Can't you get a quickness of 2 by using the Bonus Attribute edge? From what I remember, the edges and flaws weren't counted in the otaku rules.
Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 5 2003, 04:27 AM
| QUOTE (msoya) |
| Can't you get a quickness of 2 by using the Bonus Attribute edge? From what I remember, the edges and flaws weren't counted in the otaku rules. |
By the letter of the rules, yes. Expect most GMs to flog you about the face and neck with a herring for trying it, though.
Posted by: Artemis Nov 5 2003, 06:38 AM
Hmm.. this is new information to me. 1 die per Combat Round per Force Point. I don't recall ever having read that outside of this forum, but I'll take your word for it.
Is that true for Power Foci as well as for Ally Spirits using the Aid Power?
Posted by: Sphynx Nov 5 2003, 07:57 AM
That's true for Power Foci and Ally Spirits. The Aid Power is something different, that let's you cast the spell and the Spirit soak the drain. You don't need that power for your Ally to act as a Power Focus.
To others, there's no mention anywhere that a Power Focus (or Ally Spirit) adds to Spell Pool. They each just add dice that refresh once a round with no cap. So, 10 skill + 5 Ally + 6 PowerFocus + 10 Spell Pool is legitamately possible.
Sphynx
Posted by: Lilt Nov 5 2003, 10:12 AM
My take on the rules:
| QUOTE (Aid Power @ P108, MITS) |
| Aid Power Type M, Action: Exclusive Complex, Range: LOS, Duration: Sustained The ally acts as a power focus, sddiong it's force to its master's magic for purposes of Drain and... |
It would appear that Aid Power is the power that lets the spirit act as a power focus. You are confusing it with the resist drain service an ally can perform. An interesting aspect of this power: the dice it provides can be applied to any magical skill test, meaning you can use it to aid your centering, enchanting, and divining skills too.
Foci do not technically create or add to pool, the dice from them just refresh in the same manner, thus they are not subject to the limitation of only using up-to skill rating per test.
Also: as when the ally spirit uses aid power it 'acts as a power focus'; there is a good case for it to count as a foci when calculating for foci addiction.
Posted by: Sphynx Nov 5 2003, 10:44 AM
Ack!!! My bad, guess I need to brush up on my MitS. I'll just acredit my erroneous comment to... uhm.... never having summoned one of those beasts?
Actually, in all my years of playing, I've only twice seen a player summon an Ally Spirit (and both times was the same player). It's just too Karma intensive for some of us (62 karma?!?). But it does make sense, double your spells (teach him all your spells and you can basically get double the spell-casting) without reducing his spell dice (Aid Power doesn't take his Sorcery Dice). So basically, 62 karma to cast twice as many spells a round, and get +5 dice to casting your own spells. Not to mention all the other benefits.
Makes me wish I wasn't a Sorcerer.....
Sphynx
Posted by: Lilt Nov 5 2003, 11:22 AM
You don't need to spend that much karma on an ally, although if you are going to it's best to do it when you create it rather than later. Make it a familiar (an ally taken as an initiatory ordeal) and you don't even lose a point of magic (although you may lose one if it goes free).
Look at it this way: A force 2 or 3 ally spirit costs 5 or 15 karma and acts as a force 2 or 3 power focus when you need it to (also cosing far less in cash, and being far more capible than a power focus). To boot, if you are OK with treating it badly (or you only do it occationally), you can have it take the drain from any spell you cast.
[edit]Also: you don't get true doubble casting as it only has spell-pool equal to the spirit's force (not calculated by mental attributes)[/edit]
Oh yes and: My MITS-fu is superior
Posted by: Sphynx Nov 5 2003, 11:56 AM
Yeah yeah, and can only cast spells at it's Force or less (if you're smart), but it's still double the spell. I know for a fact that his Force 5 has a high list of spirit-kills from targets that the owner hit first with a Serious or Deadly, even though they were only cast with a much reduced number of dice.
I would just never recommend anything other than a Force 5 Ally. 6 is too easy to lose via it's own Will to be free, and 1-4 are too easy to lose to bad situations gone worse. Force 5 is the only sensible Force.
Sphynx
Oh yes and: You may think whatever you want, little grasshopper.
Posted by: Lilt Nov 5 2003, 01:31 PM
How are forces 1-4 vulnerable? They can only be banished if they materialise (which they don't need to do to use aid-power) and they have exactly the same stats as the summoner's for purposes of astral combat.
My Mits-fu is so superior, I may as-well be a short, smiling, monk wearing a saffron-coloured robe.
(and sunglasses)
Posted by: Sphynx Nov 5 2003, 01:56 PM
Because unlike the summoner, they don't have the option to be non-dualnatured, because unlike the summoner, they don't get Shielding and are thus weaker against spells like SpiritBlast, because unlike Summoners, they are still only Force 1-4 for penetrating things such as Wards and Barriers, oh mighty Monk Master of MitS-Fu.
I know you were just testing me.
Sphynx, MitS-Fu Master.
Posted by: Zazen Nov 5 2003, 05:12 PM
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| Because unlike the summoner, they don't have the option to be non-dualnatured |
Sure they do, they can be fully astral
Posted by: Anymage Nov 6 2003, 12:53 AM
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| ...But it does make sense, double your spells (teach him all your spells and you can basically get double the spell-casting) without reducing his spell dice (Aid Power doesn't take his Sorcery Dice). So basically, 62 karma to cast twice as many spells a round, and get +5 dice to casting your own spells. Not to mention all the other benefits. |
Sadly, it doesn't work quite like that. You get extra spellcasting, yes, but only in the sense that having another team member would. And you have to balance how well that virtual teammate would handle the risks you do.
Also, you can't quite have the virtual power focus plus extra spellcaster bonus. Aid Power takes an exclusive complex action, meaning that your spirit is limited to movement and one mundane free action per turn while helping you out. In order to do anything else of practical value, you have to give up the bonus dice.
Posted by: Zazen Nov 6 2003, 07:04 AM
It is sustained, though. It doesn't need to activate the power every action.
I vaguely remember that the debate on whether an exclusive complex sustained power retained its exclusivity decided that it did not, because of some counterexample or something. I'll try and find it later when I'm not high as a kite.
Posted by: Artemis Nov 6 2003, 07:46 AM
I vaguely remember the rules indicating that a sustained exclusive action requires the complete and total attention of the character for the duration of the activity.
And if that isn't stated somewhere in black and white, then it's my humble opinion that it should be. Cause that would be way to munchkiny otherwise, even for things other than the Aid Power vs. Spellcasting.
Posted by: Sphynx Nov 6 2003, 09:05 AM
Actually, I think Anymage is quite right. Good to know too, as only him and the current GM have dealt with the rules, I'm quite sure that although I remember each action done, I don't recall him doing both in the same round. Regardless, since he would only need Aid Power against a being that the spirit's little Force 5 spells would be useless against, it's still a great trade off.
Sphynx
Posted by: Lilt Nov 6 2003, 11:05 AM
Sphynx: I see you are but young in the ways of MitS Fu, but you can learn. Recite your herbal radical component list and prepare to begin afresh with a new mind.
[edit]The spirit cannot use any other powers whilst sustaining an exclusive power like Engulf or Aid-Power. He can, however, still perform mundane actions without penalty. That's why it can be useful to teach them other combat skills like martial arts or pistols.
Posted by: Artemis Nov 6 2003, 07:51 PM
Interesting... where is this rule? I need to do more study work it seems.
Posted by: Sphynx Nov 6 2003, 08:05 PM
If you're refering to the exclusive power of Aid Power. It's in the header of the Aid Power description where it lists the duration, etc.
Sphynx
Posted by: Hot Wheels Nov 6 2003, 08:06 PM
| QUOTE (Artemis) |
| ‘Once you go Gnome— That's what you moan!’ Gah! The one phrase that drives my character entirely insane... and she hears it all of the time from her short little companion on the team. Eh... |
Once you have a gnome, it's all you'll take home?
Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 6 2003, 08:10 PM
| QUOTE (Hot Wheels) | ||
Once you have a gnome, it's all you'll take home? |
True. True.
Posted by: Fortune Nov 6 2003, 11:02 PM
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) | ||
True. True. |
While that might be true, they then tend to get left out on the lawn.
Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 7 2003, 03:10 AM
Many gnomes, when left in the yard, end up going on world tours. The number of garden gnomes currently in the possession of someone who takes pictures of them in bizare locations and mails them back to the original owner is estimated at 24%.
Posted by: Mongoose Nov 7 2003, 05:56 AM
You don't HAVE to set all an Otaku's pysical attributes at 1. They can actually be fairly tough if they don't go for the bonus mental attributes. All they loose is 1 off the "top end" on thier physical attributes.
An Otaku troll could start with Bod 10, quickness 4, Str 9, and go higher than that with karma etc. There wouldn't be much points left for starting mental attributes, so his "living persona" would blow chunks, but he might not be bad at using a deck if you sank lotsa skill points into Computer skill. And raising low stats doesn't cost so much, though they would never get high enough to really be competative.
Just don't ask me how this bruiser even became an otaku in the first place...
Posted by: Zazen Nov 7 2003, 06:11 AM
| QUOTE |
| Many gnomes, when left in the yard, end up going on world tours. The number of garden gnomes currently in the possession of someone who takes pictures of them in bizare locations and mails them back to the original owner is estimated at 24%. |
I'm drunk so I will represent my balls at this time. If I could lay one woman right at this moment, it'd be her. Several times. For several hours. In several ways. Yeah.
Posted by: Artemis Nov 7 2003, 09:10 AM
No I wasn't referring to the Aid Power's exclusive trait, but to the concept behind that power and Power Foci in that... maybe I just wasn't interpreting what was said properly.
If one has 10 skill in spellcasting,
a Force 5 Ally Spirit,
a Force 6 Power Focus,
and 6 dice of Spell Pool,
could they potentially cast a spell on their first initiative pass in which they can use a full 27 (10+5+6+6) dice for successes?
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Nov 7 2003, 09:21 AM
| QUOTE (Artemis) |
| could they potentially cast a spell on their first initiative pass in which they can use a full 27 (10+5+6+6) dice for successes? |
Yes, the rule is that you can't use more from any single pool than you have dice in the skill (with variation during defaulting).
Each foci that adds dice is technically another pool, so is the ally spirit, and you aren't getting more than 10 out of any one pool.
Posted by: Artemis Nov 7 2003, 09:24 AM
Good, I was starting to get afraid that I misread something. Thanks
Posted by: Zazen Nov 7 2003, 02:45 PM
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) | ||
Yes, the rule is that you can't use more from any single pool than you have dice in the skill (with variation during defaulting). Each foci that adds dice is technically another pool, so is the ally spirit, and you aren't getting more than 10 out of any one pool. |
I believe there is errata that says that you can't use more total pool dice (even when combined from multiple pools) than the base skill level, so this doesn't quite hold.
The trick, of course, is that focus and ally dice are not pools and thus not subject to this limitation.
Posted by: Fortune Nov 7 2003, 11:26 PM
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| Yes, the rule is that you can't use more from any single pool than you have dice in the skill (with variation during defaulting). Each foci that adds dice is technically another pool, so is the ally spirit, and you aren't getting more than 10 out of any one pool. |
Actually, according to Rob, You can't use more dice from [i]all combined, applicable[/] Pools than you have in a skill.
As Zazen said, this is not to say that it applies in this situation however, as nowhere does it state that Foci or Spirit dice are any type of Pool, as they are officially defined.
Posted by: Kurukami Nov 7 2003, 11:42 PM
This is probably going off on a tangent, but...
I thought that it was the Bonus Attribute Edge that actually raised your stat by one, and that Exceptional Attribute merely raised your Racial Modified Limit. I write this without my rulebooks nearby, naturally...
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