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Posted by: Diesel Nov 5 2003, 06:44 AM

Pawing through the books, a number of interesting figures struck me. Most notable was the availability on the Great Dragon anti-tank guided missile. Eight. Wow.

Some others struck me as odd. In Man and Machine, I can get a Cybernetic Squirtgun for avail eight. In non-cyber form, it's suddenly just out of my reach. The same goes for what is nothing more than a paintball gun, the ELD-AR.

Any other messed pieces of gear?

Posted by: OurTeam Nov 5 2003, 11:02 AM

A medium machine gun is unavailable to starting characters (availability 14 or 18) unless you get it on a drone (L. S. Strato-9, availability 8 ) and carry it around under your arm.

The monofilament whip (availability 24) and Macauitl (availability 18) are both unavailable to starting characters, unless you get them as a weapon focus (availability 8 ).

Bullets fired from a Heavy Pistol go out 60 meters (Extreme range), but a strength 4 character can hit someone by throwing the pistol out to 80 meters (Grenade Range table, SR3 p. 119).

Posted by: Birdy Nov 5 2003, 11:35 AM

Posted by: Lilt Nov 5 2003, 11:48 AM

I like the one about the pistol, but i thought the rules concerning vehicles were that they came disarmed?

Anyway: I've never had a problem with players owning Grand Dragon ATGMs... They hardly ever use them and when they do something always goes horribly wrong. They tried to use one against a heavy door in a sewer. The security door (BR 8*2=16) took some damage. So did the surrounding sewer walls (BR 6).

Posted by: Siege Nov 5 2003, 02:21 PM

Posted by: tisoz Nov 5 2003, 05:04 PM

Posted by: sir fwank Nov 5 2003, 05:26 PM

well aside from cost and availiblity rules, i have to say after looking through arsenal 2060 (german cannon companion) the H&K urban enforcer is the most broken firearm ever.

H&K urban enforcer
Concealability: 5/-(not detectable by MAD)
Ammunition: 36©
Mode: SA/BF/FA
Damage: 7M
Weight: 4
Availability: 14/16Days
Cost: 6200
Street Index: 2
Accessories: RC(3), Sound Suppressor, int. Smartlink II, grenade launcher 6(m)

seriously, why should i carry anything else?

Posted by: tisoz Nov 5 2003, 06:01 PM

Posted by: Siege Nov 5 2003, 07:01 PM

Not to mention if you manage to find one at a TN of 14, you'd have to pry that thing out of my cold, dead fingers.

-Siege

Posted by: OurTeam Nov 5 2003, 07:05 PM

Time for me to learn German and buy another book.
-- USA Munchkin

Posted by: krishcane Nov 5 2003, 07:15 PM

Wow, you'd learn German just to get a better gun? That's awesome! They should use that tactic in the high schools to motivate kids.

--K

Posted by: sir fwank Nov 5 2003, 07:46 PM

did i not say aside from cost and availibility?

you can get the original h&k combat smg for 2200 si2 and avail 10. no smartlink or gernade launcher. otherwise same stats.

Posted by: BitBasher Nov 5 2003, 09:54 PM

Posted by: Artemis Nov 5 2003, 11:39 PM

Posted by: Bizarro Nov 6 2003, 05:04 PM

Posted by: BitBasher Nov 6 2003, 05:27 PM

I do most of my postings at work, so I don't have a book handy, but it has been posted here several times, and I looked it up and it was true... hopefully someone else can provide the page no...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 6 2003, 06:02 PM

I had thought that it had been determined that vehicles did in fact come with what they said they had... ah well, I'll reserve judgement until I see your quote.

~J

Posted by: cykotek Nov 6 2003, 06:11 PM

Well, I hate to say it, but I can't find the "vehicles don't come with weapons" rule anywhere in R3, or SR3. However, there are only 3 "vehicles" listed that have weapons listed in their "other features" section:

MCT Hachiman - Proprietary partial-anthroform security drone
Lone Star Strato-9 - Lone Star "surveillence" drone
MF Akahito-class Supercarrier

Both the drones list a single MMG, while the carrier lists 4 ANDREWS systems. I'm going to ignore the carrier for the rest of this post, purely out of principle.

As for the drones, the Hachiman has an availability listing of "NA", aka, "GM, this is not for sale!". This is due to it's status as a cutting edge, robot-security product, designed for purely in-house work. Hence, it's inclusion of a weapon is not an issue.

As a GM, I would first waive the "2/48 hours" availability of the Strato-9. That is a specific model that would be well protected (and not sold) by it's maker. Feel free to market a comparable model, but it definately would not carry the Lone Star trademark. I'd classify the Strato-9 as a "non-commercial vehicle" (see pg 157, R3). That means either steal one, or bye a "commercial version" (i.e., stripped of weapons) at the listed prices.

Remember, if something doesn't make sense, it's your game. Nuke it 'till it works. If they persist, take Blackjack's advice: Drop a cow on them, preferably from orbit.

Posted by: Lilt Nov 6 2003, 10:13 PM

Actually. I must admit that I can't find anything saying that vehicles come stripped. I must have just been told sometime and it stuck with me.

Anyhow, I think the price and is reasonable for a disarmed model so I'd let someone buy one of those, just without the MMG.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 6 2003, 10:32 PM

It's been claimed on Dumpshock before; probably where you got the impression.

~J

Posted by: BitBasher Nov 6 2003, 10:41 PM

That may very well be true.

Posted by: Synner Nov 6 2003, 11:00 PM

It should be obvious to anyone reading the rules both in SR3 and R3 that the Vehicles and Drones therein come "out of the box" with only the listed Features (especially when both books include rules for adding hardpoints/firmpoints if you want to add weapons).

Vehicles that include weapons systems and other extras have them listed in the Features, otherwise its pretty evident that you have to pay for further weapons, mounts and ammo.

Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 6 2003, 11:07 PM

I don't quite understand the attempts to rationalize why they don't come with their listed features, either. It's like saying that simply because you don't like the fact that a Pocket Secretary includes 100 Mp of memory (since that, alone, makes the Pocket Secretary infinitely cheaper than a 100 Mp Pocket Computer if my own memory serves), it doesn't come with that even though it's clearly listed as one of it's features.

In other words, yes, the Strato-9 does come with the listed weapon. Silly as the sum of it is.

Posted by: bwdemon Nov 6 2003, 11:10 PM

Most entries for drones/vehicles specifically state "(weapon not included)". It's likely that those entries without the "(weapon not included)" tag slipped by an editor somewhere along the line...

Posted by: Bizarro Nov 7 2003, 04:21 AM

Posted by: Kanada Ten Nov 7 2003, 05:21 AM

Posted by: Abstruse Nov 7 2003, 05:43 AM

Tailored Pheremones -- a perfectly legal mod in the UCAS -- has an availability of 12. So even if I have the money and a SIN, I can't go to a clinic and get a perfectly legal bit of bioware without rolling boxcars on a single die.

The Abstruse One

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Nov 7 2003, 06:43 AM

Availability and street index are for getting it done illegally. If you can survive the paperwork, you can get legal items without street index at an availability of "do I know who retails this?"

Items that have a fractional street index indicate how many of them have been stolen and that there is a cost decrease to get anyone to buy such products through the underretail methods.

Posted by: mfb Nov 7 2003, 11:25 AM

there's always the survival knife / trauma patch 'infinte gold pieces cheat'.

Posted by: nezumi Nov 7 2003, 10:07 PM

The other thing to keep in mind is that 'legal' doesn't always mean 'available'. A 1965 Mustang is perfectly legal, however it'll be a pickle to get. Tailored pheromones, if memory serves, are cultured bioware, which means very few people offer them and they've probably got quite a waiting list. So, like Herald said, if you can find a location which offers it and stand the waiting period, sure, you can get it at face price : )

What is the knife and trauma patch method of getting money?

Posted by: Ed_209a Nov 7 2003, 10:19 PM

Trauma patch - 500 nuyen, SI4, Av 4/48hrs
Survival knife - 450 nuyen, SI1, Av 3/6hrs

The survival knife just happens to have a trauma patch stuck in the handle...

IE, you buy the knife for roughly 450 nuyen, sell the patch for roughly 2k nuyen, and then the knife for roughly 20 nuyen.

I think they must have meant a stim patch.

Posted by: Bizarro Nov 7 2003, 10:26 PM

Posted by: Ed_209a Nov 7 2003, 10:34 PM

<shrug>

Maybe it's just 12 printings worth of "You Idiot." glares from GMs to players. That is what I would do if they tried that.

Posted by: BitBasher Nov 7 2003, 10:46 PM

well that and street index is not how much you SELL things for on the street, it's how much you BUY things for on the street. There's a big difference. Kind of like the difference between how much your car is worth on a trade-in and how much a dealer will resell it for. Big Difference.

Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 7 2003, 10:59 PM

Right. You're going to average more like 250 nuyen for the Trauma Patch and about 225 nuyen for the Survival Knife (even though you wouldn't get that much since it would obviously be missing the Trauma Patch). Even if you do manage to sell it for that, you just made a total of 475 nuyen; a 25 nuyen profit.

But a profit nonetheless.

Posted by: Siege Nov 7 2003, 11:17 PM

The idea of a trauma patch in a survival knife isn't a bad thing -- it's the ultimate band-aid.

But you know, in all the munchkins and powermongers I've ever known, none of them have ever considered buying a survival knife and trying to sell the patch at face value.

I don't know if I shoul be proud or ashamed.

-Siege

Posted by: BitBasher Nov 7 2003, 11:21 PM

I have this wonky image of someone burying their survival knife in someone's chest up to the hilt, realizing it was the wrong person, freaking out while unscrewing the back off the knife, then slapping the trauma patch on their own victim.

By this standard I think there should be a trauma patch stored in the grips of all handguns.

Posted by: Siege Nov 7 2003, 11:26 PM

Heh.

S'why every runner should carry two trauma patches: one for him(her)self and one for your best friend.

-Siege

Posted by: BitBasher Nov 7 2003, 11:27 PM

You know I hope a friend never has to use a trauma patch on me. That thing DRASTICALLY increases the chance of permanent damage like lost limbs, damaged organs, ect on the permanent damage roll.

Posted by: Siege Nov 7 2003, 11:32 PM

In a running gun battle when you drop to "nigh dead" and the closest medical assistance is 20 minutes away, trauma patches can be good. Not unlike drag handles on LBE gear.

Even if you have a trained biotech on hand, it might be better to trust the patch until the bullets/spells/Piasma stop raining on your head.

Especially with some of the numbers you toss around in your <edit>^G</edit>ame.

"Life is a game; you can't play if you're dead."

-Siege

Posted by: Corporate Raider Nov 7 2003, 11:32 PM

Posted by: BitBasher Nov 7 2003, 11:38 PM

Posted by: Siege Nov 7 2003, 11:40 PM

Well, I was responsible for the "drugged devil rat and water-ballon pitching rubber band" idea, so I felt the unpredictability of a SR had to be more accurately reflected in critter choices.

-Siege

Posted by: Abstruse Nov 8 2003, 12:35 AM

Posted by: nezumi Nov 8 2003, 04:32 AM

You're right, tailored pheromones aren't cultured. My bad.

However, bioware, unlike most stuff, is difficult to make and only a few people produce it (bioware is relatively new technology and hasn't really established itself yet in the SR universe, plus it has to be grown and so doesn't benefit from production lines). Supply is significantly limited. However, as you pointed out, demand is very high among a crowd which has money to spend. Hence waiting times and prices skyrocket.

Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 8 2003, 04:51 AM

Yet it's still arguably one of the implants to be *most* desired by the *most* people (sex sells, and always will sell). Yet implants that are infinitely more difficult to implant and even manufacture, such as Mnemonic Enhancers and Cerebral Boosters, are more available. The same goes for implants that wouldn't be as in demand as Tailored Pheromones, such as Suprathyroid Glands, Adrenal Pumps, Thermosense Organs, and Orthoskin.

It's one of those "what the fuck were they thinking?" stat blocks.

Posted by: Siege Nov 8 2003, 05:08 AM

Not to mention that people that live by personal interactions would be seriously interested in this kind of bioware:

Salespeople, escorts, PR people and so on.

-Siege

Posted by: Kanada Ten Nov 8 2003, 05:18 AM

I though Availability (Street Index, ect) was only a factor in black market purchases?

Meaning you can go to the appropriate store and buy anything you can get legally - though, for Tailored Pheromones or such, installed and with a sample of your DNA now in the hands of a corp.

Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 8 2003, 05:39 AM

Nope, Availability is Availability. Street Index is the only purely "black market" stat.

Posted by: John Campbell Nov 8 2003, 07:13 AM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2003, 07:24 AM

The problem with that is that it makes vehicle creation even more insane.
Really, it makes sense to me that a L-S Strato-9 with MMG should be easier to get than an MMG. The Star makes extensive use of these things for surveillance and fire support, whereas security vehicle-mounted or hand-carried MMGs are pretty rare. By the same token, it's comparatively difficult to find gold ingots for sale, whereas you can buy plenty of gold jewelry because that's got a common use.

~J

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 8 2003, 07:36 AM

I'm of the belief that nothing should be more common then it's component parts. Simple

Just my two pence. And damn the Euro. (only kidding )

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2003, 07:47 AM

But I don't think that holds true in the real world. I'll do some digging to see if I can come up with evidence tommorow, or rather later today, when I'm actually awake.

~J

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 8 2003, 08:45 AM

Posted by: mfb Nov 8 2003, 09:52 AM

maybe if you're a manufacturer that uses gold as a component in your product (shielding and whatnot). joe blow on the street would have a much harder time buying a single gold ingot for its price in dollars / euros / whatever. there's a very low demand for the sale of single gold ingots, which means it's difficult to find someone who sells them in that quantity. that, in turn, can be represented by a high Availability rating.

it's easily possible for the strato-9 to be easier to obtain than its component parts. for instance, the manufacturer might have overproduced them for some reason--maybe LS reneged on its initial contract, maybe someone typed in one too many zeros on the order form. the result is a flooded market as the manufacturer tries to recoup their losses; strato-9s become relatively common, among riggers. this creates an upswing the in the parts business for the strato-9, as riggers buy up the things they need to keep their strato-9s operational. pretty soon, the strato-9 has an established market base, and the manufacturer keeps pumping them out because they're in demand.

Posted by: Abstruse Nov 8 2003, 10:36 AM

Lots of jewelers either have or can get you gold, silver, platinum, etc. ingots. Just because they don't have it at the counter at JC Pennys doesn't mean you can't get it. Coin collectors also sell ingots. Many of them even have them in stock, esp. the higher-class places in larger cities because there's a demand there. If not, they can be ordered and in your hands in a matter of days at most.

Having Tailored Pheremones have that high an availability (meaning it's not available at chargen) would be like saying the same about breast implants. They're popular, they're fairly easy to implant, therefore they're available at a variety of places. You can go from office visit to new boobs in under a month in many places.

The only logical reason for such a high availability of tailored pheremones would be for game balance. It doesn't make sense within the universe. And it also doesn't even make much sense for game balance because frankly, Tailored Pheremones aren't that great. +1 to +4 dice for social interactions for people in your immediate radius dependant on wind conditions. And the +4 is only for the cultured version of Level 2 pheremones, which isn't available at chargen anyway. So basically your face could have 8 dice rather than 6 for the negotiations test with the Johnson, or to bulldrek the guard into letting the team into the parking garage. That's nothing compared to the dice boost if you use the optional rules for a social dice pool.

The Abstruse One

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 8 2003, 10:52 AM

Would someone who actually knows about this stuff care to comment? If we're talking about the same size of ingot here (the Ye Olde gold bar, easily weighing 50lbs), then I should think it would be really easy to acquire. Where do goldsmiths get their gold? It's not very likely that they purchase much more than ~50lbs of it at a time -- you can make a whole lotta jewelry out of that. And I suppose the point of the comparison is lost in any case, because the market for MMGs do not work like the market for gold. [Edit]Abtruse put it way better than I could have. So much for the gold-comparison.[/Edit]

I'm just making guesses here, but it seems everybody else is too.

Posted by: Abstruse Nov 8 2003, 10:57 AM

The ingots (and the prices for gold on the open market) are in ounces, not pounds. If you want a Fort Knox style gold brick, THAT is a tall order, but it can be done. If nothing else, you can get someone to melt a bunch of the ounce-sized ingots into a brick.

The Abstruse One

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 8 2003, 11:19 AM

So the size of the order at least isn't a problem, like mfb suggested.

I knew the price was in ounces, but that doesn't mean much considering that the price of oil is in barrels...

Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 8 2003, 06:09 PM

I'd personally come down pretty hard on any PC lifting the MMG off of a Strato-9 for other purposes. A simple solution would be to give it a distinctive sound like the LS pistol. When cops hear it firing, they know someone's lifted police gear somewhere along the way.

Posted by: Siege Nov 8 2003, 06:25 PM

Well, yanking the weapon system isn't a bad idea, but if they start cheesing the concept then I get cranky.

Of course, ripping out an embedded weapon system and using it as a man-portable device isn't as easy as it sounds...

-Siege

Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 8 2003, 06:36 PM

On the strato-9, an MMG isn't that bad. The drone goes down easily when someone fires back (range is the only issue). However, if someone yanks the system and crams it into a steel lynx...

Of course, an MMG and an LMG aren't much different, rules wise, so it's not that bad a lift.

Posted by: Sahandrian Nov 8 2003, 10:05 PM

I think I was thinking of something along the same lines as what Seige is hinting at. The weapon is probably meant to be vehicle-mounted. No grip, no trigger, whatever internal parts are needed for a computer-controlled weapon...

It should take some time, at least, to convert the gun to be fired by a metahuman or used in another machine.

Posted by: Zazen Nov 8 2003, 11:06 PM

Does anyone remember hearing that Marlon Brando demanded to be paid in gold for one of his films? Somehow this ingot business reminded me of that.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 9 2003, 04:12 AM

Posted by: Siege Nov 9 2003, 04:21 AM

That actually prompted a question Kage --

Do you apply Good Rep across the board to all situations, or do you apply it "as appropriate?"

"Great Decker" would apply to people who know him/her/it as a decker, but wouldn't necessarily apply to interactions with a corporate secretary. (for example)

-Siege

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 9 2003, 04:43 AM

I apply it as appropriate, which as far as I can tell is most places. Even if they don't know what you do, if you've got Good Reputation you're known for being trustworthy. I might not allow it to sweet-talk a guard, admittedly, but most other uses. I think it's bull that someone's just known as being a great decker; it doesn't matter how good you are, the point is that your reputation is good. "Oh, yeah, Runner X, don't know what he does but I hear he always plays straight with people. You can trust him."

~J