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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Bone Lacing and Killing Hands

Posted by: Phasma Felis Nov 5 2003, 10:49 PM

Does the unarmed damage bonus from bone lacing apply to the adept power killing hands?

Yes, I realize this is horribly munchkin, but it seems so...themely, somehow.

Posted by: Sphynx Nov 5 2003, 10:57 PM

Yes, it does.

Sphynx

Posted by: Siege Nov 5 2003, 10:59 PM

I would imagine not -- cybernetics are not supposed to augment magical ability.

Encephelons don't augment magical ability.
Cerebral boosters do.

However, based on that logic I would argue that muscle augment would improve the power of an adept's Killing Hands, but bone lacing would/should not.

-Siege

Edit: Or not. Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong.

Posted by: Lilt Nov 5 2003, 11:00 PM

Yes, it is compatible. Killing hands just alters the damage level of your unarmed combat attacks.

Posted by: Sphynx Nov 5 2003, 11:03 PM

Something interesting to look at is the Clairvoyance spell. Because you pay essence for cyberware, it's a part of your astral self in a sense. That's why, according to the Clairvoyance spell, you get to use cyber vision enhancements with the spell.

Sphynx

Posted by: Tanka Nov 5 2003, 11:07 PM

QUOTE (Siege)

Let's break this down.

QUOTE

I would imagine not -- cybernetics are not supposed to augment magical ability.

It isn't altering magical ability, just how hard you hit.

QUOTE

However, based on that logic I would argue that muscle augment would improve the power of an adept's Killing Hands, but bone lacing would/should not.

They only improve on the Power of the hit, not the Damage.

Let's say a Human with Str 6 is using Killing Hands S. He also has Muscle Augmentation 4 and Titanium Bone Lacing. His Unarmed strike, without Killing Hands, is (Str + 3)M Stun, or 13M Stun. Now, with Killing Hands, it merely changes the Damage Level and makes it physical, so, the Bone Lacing and Muscle Augmentation kick into effect, thusly making his attack 13S Physical.

Posted by: Siege Nov 5 2003, 11:42 PM

To point out: Killing Hands never explains how it transmutes normally stun damage to physical injury, never mind how it creates the base staging damage.

With that in mind, I think my parallel with the encephalon/cerebral booster does have merit.

Never mind the fact I'm wrong, but still it was a good argument...

-Siege

Posted by: Shadow Nov 5 2003, 11:43 PM

I can't imagine playing an adept who would want to give up half his magic rating just to be really good at damaging people.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 5 2003, 11:46 PM

Well, if you go with both the Bone Lacing and the Muscle Aug, that's all of it.

What's the plan, then? Gaese it, then do it after Initiating. ;p

Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 6 2003, 12:13 AM

QUOTE (Shadow @ Nov 5 2003, 05:43 PM)

I can't imagine playing an adept who would want to give up half his magic rating just to be really good at damaging people.

As opposed to professional atheles who give up a long, healthy life and even longer, healthier sex life (wiggles his little finger) just to use stereoids?

Posted by: Shadow Nov 6 2003, 01:00 AM

Your life span isn't real, it's this idea. When people tell you do this (eat healthy, don't smoke etc) and you will live longer, it is just an idea. You don't really know your life span.

Adepts can feel their magic, it is a part of them. When they lose a piece it's like loosing your sight, or your arm (imho). I don't see the willingly sacrificing any of it, no matter the gaines.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 6 2003, 01:01 AM

Some people are willing, if it'll make them faster/better/stronger/harder (Daft Punk, heh.) than the opponent. How do you think so many Mages burn out? Different pieces of 'ware.

Posted by: Phasma Felis Nov 6 2003, 05:04 AM

More to the point, I believe (haven't read Magic in the Shadows) that Awakening can occur late in life, and unannounced. If a mundane martial artist gets titanium bone lacing so he'll be more badass, then Awakens into an adept, he's stuck with what he's got.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 6 2003, 05:06 AM

Very true.

Or, say you have a Sammie before YotC. Get's a few things installed to make him tougher. Then, YotC hits, he goes Active, becomes a PhysAd, stuck with his 'ware. Not that great of an Adept when it comes to Powers, but he sure can break people. ;p

Posted by: Sphynx Nov 6 2003, 09:16 AM

QUOTE (Shadow)

Adepts can feel their magic, it is a part of them. When they lose a piece it's like loosing your sight, or your arm (imho). I don't see the willingly sacrificing any of it, no matter the gaines.

I'm afraid that although this sounds really good, it's just a point of view. A nice point of view, but non supported by Canon source. How a player's character 'feels' is completely up to the player running the character. Admittedly a GM can over-rule the feelings of a character, but I think that is poor storytelling, better off influencing the feelings and still allow the player to view/see his own character in his own image.

Sphynx

Posted by: Casazil Nov 6 2003, 10:21 PM

Ok here is my 2 Nuyen's worth.
Bone Lacing and Muscle Aug. 4 total cost 6.25 ess. ok your Character is dead please make a new one. Next option Bone Lacing and Muscle Aug. 4 alpha grade you live but lack the ability to get killing hands S. Next option Bone Lacing and Muscle Aug. 4 beta ok you live and get killing hands S your also out 620,000 nuyen. My choice adept (b) troll © money (a) your choice on skills and stats (d,e) now put 6 into str. add troll racial mod buy adept powers improved reflexes 2 +4 reaction +2 dice initiative & level 6 pain resistance spend 742,000 and get a level 6 dikoted weapon focus. Your idea 13 S damage if troll you get +1 reach. my idea troll +1 reach sword +1 reach damage 14 D works very well in attacks against both mundane and spirits. Please don't complain about munchkin to me I only posted this as an example of what could be considered a more leathal character.

Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 6 2003, 10:30 PM

Uhm, you have "Muscle Replacement" (the cyberware) confused with "Muscle Augmentation" (the bioware).

Posted by: Casazil Nov 6 2003, 10:48 PM

Ahh sorry about that have not played in awhile. Still i have to say i would rather make my guy than the other one if only due to no ess. loss and capable of doing damage to both mundane and astral opponents.

Posted by: The Frumious Bandersnatch Nov 6 2003, 10:53 PM

The only real advantage to the combo is that Muscle Augmentation 4 can cost you less Power Points (through lost magic) than Improved Physical Attribute: Strength 4 can unless you geasa it since you can also tack on up to 0.40 Bio Index worth of implants without further degredation. But that's about the only advantage, and it's not much of one considering the other side-effects.

But if such a character wanted to go that route, I'd certainly allow them to do so. At least with Bone Lacing you can geasa off the effects, allowing you to still gain an additional 6 Power Points worth of adept powers (or an effective total of 8 if you geasa all of them as well).

Then again, I don't care for adepts at all anyway. I think they're as silly as Otaku. If you want a magical "ninja" type character, which arguably was the entire point of introducing the character concept into the game, just play a combat focused mage. I don't see why adepts should be allowed to have "always on" magical powers with zero drain while mages can't (Physical Mages aside). It's just silly.

Posted by: Req Nov 6 2003, 10:53 PM

Perhaps, but the Iron Adept has mad style.

Posted by: El_Machinae Nov 6 2003, 11:24 PM

With the bioware, you can essentially get a cerebral booster or sleep regulator for free, if you take the muscle augmentation.

Posted by: Sphynx Nov 7 2003, 12:08 AM

QUOTE (E.O.T.L.F. @ Nov 7 2003, 12:21 AM)

Heh, no offense intended, but NOBODY would call that 'munchkinism'.

With attributes as priority D or E, and 6 of them in Strength (as a Troll) you'll have an average of 2 in all the other stats (except Body) unless you go Priority E, where all your stats will be 1 except for Strength and Body.

Secondly, 1.8 Essence for Bone Lacing (that's the only way to do it right, Alpha/Titanium) and a Geasa on 2 Power Points of Exclusive? (letting you throw in another 0.2 of Cyberware), and you can still have all 6 Power Points to spend, so BoneLacing is actually a good munchkin idea if you want to do damage, but don't waste speed on a melee character, get +4 to Unarmed, 4 levels of Muscle Aug and play a Dwarf. That gives you 2 fewer points to Strength (made up for with Bone Lacing) add on 4 levels of counterstrike and 2 points left over (these are the 2 points you Geasa for the Lacing most likely, maybe +4 Stealth and +4 Athletics, we're using +4 because your virtual magic is down to 4 due to Muscle Aug). This gives you +8 dice to your unarmed skill 50+ % of the time, and doing 16M Stun. Now you're starting to get Munchkin.

However, it's really overkill, 14+ dice (+ being Combat Pool) is going to win most fights, and 16 is too high to resist, even with good Armour.

Lastly, I'd not waste points on Killing Hands unless you intend to fight things Immune to Natural Weapons (some spirits) especially if you don't have Astral Perception. Just do your nice Stun Damage and still KO 90% of the people with a single hit.

Sphynx