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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Damage and armour

Posted by: kenny26 Nov 6 2003, 01:38 PM

I'd noticed that there was quite a lively discussion going on in http://invision.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=1720 about armour degredation, and then it hit me: What happens when your kevlar coat catches a bullet for you?

I believe that even if the bullet is stopped completely by the armour, that can't mean you're unharmed underneath.
I've heard from more or less reliable sources that most people are still knocked over if they take a bullet.

But the rules don't seem to concern this issue. Either, you take no damage (i.e. you resist it all) or you take physical damage.
I'd just like to hear some oppinions about this.

Posted by: El_Machinae Nov 6 2003, 01:46 PM

There's a game system called "Alternity", and their system is that all bullet attacks do both stun damage and wound damage. Armor stops the wounding, but not the stunning.

When recommending ways to make sniper rifles, I suggested including a non-armorable (heh) stun rating to soak - to represent the 'aftershock'.

Sadly, shadowrun is not designed to have the 'knockout' effect. Basically, it can be explained as a 'light' wound.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 6 2003, 02:55 PM

The Shadowrun system of differentiating between Stun and Physical is a bit odd anyway. I don't think "clubs" (like http://www.surplusstore.co.uk/newstore/acatalog/surplusstore_co_uk_ASP_Telescopic_Batons_39.html) should really do purely "mental" damage, either. That's why I don't think it's really necessary to turn the blunt trauma of damage mostly stopped by armor into Stun.

Also, there's no way of telling whether the bullet is stopped by armor under canon SR rules, unless someone is wearing a complete suit, with helmet + faceplate and all. Vests, jackets or even suits of clothes, can all be bypassed, and maybe the fact that someone took a Light wound while wearing Armored Clothes meant you got hit in your foot and lost a toe.

QUOTE

I've heard from more or less reliable sources that most people are still knocked over if they take a bullet.

You can be knocked down even if you take no damage at all, at least without taking damage of the Shadowrun type. E.g. you can house rule that:
You must always roll for Knockdown when hit, even if you take no damage. TN for this test is ½ original Power, not modified by armor, and the treshold is 1 if you took no damage.
This makes more sense than trying to make "stopped" bullets do Stun.

I don't think there's anyone here who uses Stun for stopped bullets? At least, during the many, many times that armor and penetration has been discussed on DSF, no one has admitted to doing it. It has been thrown around a bit, but apparently there has been no solid system for doing it. It will certainly not make any sense unless you use hit locations and a more complicated system for damage, penetration and armor than canon SR has. And even if you do, it won't be easy to make it work.

I just give +1 die to Damage Resistance for each point by which Armor reduces Power under 2. And this is with totally redone Powers, new "Penetration" values, redone Armor system and hit locations.

Posted by: nezumi Nov 6 2003, 04:28 PM

Actually, physics dictate you're likely to take LESS damage if you're knocked down (the blow, instead of transfering all of its force towards making a new dent in your skull, loses force to pushing your whole body). That's why the second thing you learn in karate is drops.

Yes, Alternity does have a 'physical damage does stun damage too' rule. However, I have played combat in that system and it takes *FOREVER*. If you start worrying about knockback, stun, normal damage and hitting, you begin doubling your dice rolls, and it takes a lot longer to finish up those ten second combat scenes. So for the sake of reality, you're totally right Kenny. However, for the sake of expedience (and the deadliness of the game), I'd recommend against putting in more rules unless you really like rolling.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 6 2003, 08:24 PM

Heh, Nezumi, killing attacks in the HERO system do both types of damage, too (most of the time). Of course combat in HERO can go on for weeks of die rolls.

Posted by: tisoz Nov 7 2003, 06:13 PM

It could be assumed that staging down damage represents the "stun" damage of getting shot. Say the armor stops the bullet from penetrating, but the character still takes damage, such as a cracked rib.

Posted by: Dim Sum Nov 7 2003, 07:05 PM

The Twilight 2000 system had a system where you suffered blunt trauma specifically for the "bruising" effect of a bullet hitting your body armour. I loved that game - too bad the company closed down.

There is, unfortunately, no real way of simulating something close to that with the SR rules in any satisfactory manner.

Posted by: Cray74 Nov 7 2003, 07:12 PM

QUOTE (kenny26)

Few bullets actually carry the force to knock someone over. If they do, the act of firing them will knock the attacker over on his rear, too. (Equal and opposite reaction, etc.) "Knock down" is generally a result of injury and/or the pain of impact. (I have heard being shot in typical, light armor vests hurts like a bastard even without penetration and injury beyond bruising.)

However, at some point, the armor gets beefy enough that it doesn't hurt. A steel or ceramic plate is going to spread the impact of a stopped bullet over such a large area that it'll hurt less than recoil the attacker experienced. A thick, tactical-grade ballistic panel in security armor is going to reduce a pistol bullet to a punch, if not less.

In my interpretation of armor rules, it's quite possible to take light and moderate physical wounds without having actual armor penetration. It's much easier to stop a bullet with ballistic fabric than it is to spread the impact below rib-cracking, flesh-pulping force. AIUI, it's not unusual to see bad bruises/hemotomas (light wounds) and cracked ribs (light to moderate wounds) under real armor vests that stopped bullets.

If the bullet doesn't hit hard enough to penetrate, and doesn't bruise the meat underneath (cause physical injury), I figure it's not worth bothering with the stun damage. Yeah, it stung, you might have a bruise, but you can put up with worse in a mosh pit.