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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Self expression Sota

Posted by: Pendaric Jul 13 2007, 03:29 PM

Welcome to the bleeding edge of the style world, fashion fans. If youâ€™re an ork or troll youâ€™re nobody nowadays without some kind of tusk equipment.
What started as a street fashion on the streets of Seattle has gone global thanks to the adoption by Orâ€™zet rappers.
Ork and troll tusks obviously sit proud of the lower jaw line and lower lip leading to them not being utilised in mastication, this little known fact has been the foundation of ork and troll youth bringing attention to their heritage.
Tusk adornment has become the thing of the nano.
In the beginning of this style statement by the angry youth of today, simple tusk caps and piercings where the extent of the choice available.

This breeder has got dis all backwards, it was my chummer, Dint, that got some steel caps for the next turf war. Meanest bite on the street. Bite like a barghest.
Kunk

Now the ork fashion gurus of the music world are sporting inlaid gems, enamel dying and even engraved tusks with inlaid gold.

Scan this. I was the first trog in the plex to have my tusks capped. Before I knew it every drekheel and charlatan was copying me. Frag even got breeders getting tusks to rip my style. So I change to gold inlays, fraggers rip that too. Try being an individual with every slitch copying you.
J.J.

Chummer, itâ€™s a cross to bear being a fashion setter.
Decker

Frag you and the deck I gave you.
J.J.

For trolls there is plenty more room for self expression. Young trolls like Corwin Steel, lead guitar of the eco thrash band Pangea, have taken to horn carving. Steel sights his inspirations as the changeling performance artist Celia Mandrake. We are reliably informed Miss Mandrake has circuitry pattern UV inlays in her horns that makes for a dazzling display on stage.
Other examples of horn art start as simple as sanding smooth through geometric patterns/inlays, to as intricate as a depiction of DaVinciâ€™s Last supper showcased at the UCAS national body art exhibit in New York.

My troll chummer got drunk and had his horns craved by the Spikeâ€™s current artist.
Nice job too, real hit with the larger ladiesâ€¦..
Jin

It isnâ€™t just troll meta-variants that are going for this. I am seeing patterned/inlaid and craved horns on changelings and cyber enhanced club goers. Of course it started much more fringe than this, classic dual evolution from the fetish and street styles.
Piewacket

Posted by: Pendaric Jul 13 2007, 04:24 PM

Hope you DS's like this, feel free to embelish. If you don't like this now is the time for long, quiet introspection.

Posted by: Pendaric Jul 17 2007, 03:50 PM

hmmm Lots of introspection going on
Thread necromancy!
I promise to let it drop after this.

Posted by: Angelone Jul 17 2007, 09:50 PM

Don't get me wrong it's interesting and I like it, kinda I actually like making fun of people with it, but it doesn't help my human mage much. Maybe on my next troll, ain't promising anything though

Posted by: Slash_Thompson Jul 18 2007, 02:48 PM

it's fantastic fluff, would make at worst a good news-clip for the next time a player asks what's on the trid.

Posted by: mfb Jul 18 2007, 05:13 PM

all of my ork characters mod their tusks in some way. one of them has gold and copper wire inlaid into grooves in her tusks; another has his tusks scrimshawed.

Posted by: Pendaric Jul 18 2007, 10:01 PM

I am glad it has found others that like the idea.

Posted by: Link Jul 20 2007, 02:04 AM

QUOTE (Pendaric)

hmmm Lots of introspection going on
Thread necromancy!
I promise to let it drop after this.

QUOTE (Pendaric)

I am glad it has found others that like the idea.

Let it go

I hate trogs! but tusk ornamentation is a good concept. What about some tattoo-like magic where the tusks are engraved with sigils and so on to function as spell quickening. The maximum rating would equal BOD - CHA so that many horned, ugly troll could get about a 10 force spell quickened (or 2 force 5's etc).

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jul 22 2007, 05:03 PM

I can see it on trolls but selling to orks seems more exploitive. . For trolls it kind of goes with it. there's nothing more pathetic than some troll trying to hide her looks. Honey you're not passing as human. You're 10 feet tall-we all see you-so may as well stand proud and show off what you got. These ornaments would do that, but orks. No that's just trying to sell to a market that doesn't need them. Ork fangs, not tusks, fangs don't portrude as much and do get a lot of use in eating. having seen many an ork at the Big Rhino tease me about having 'puny little human teeth' to eat ribs with, I think any such ornamentation on orks would be a waste.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jul 23 2007, 12:46 PM

I think it is very nice that someone could take the time to design things to make the Changed Ones' lives better. They are bombarded with images in the media that are slender and smaller than they are which only reminds them of how terribly far they are from human. These things will help them develop their own sense of style and feel better about themselves.

Posted by: Begby Jul 24 2007, 09:34 PM

Pendaric: If you'd like to get some press on the Horn Carving cultural write-up you did, we'd accomodate you. We would insert you as an NPC cultural reporter from MNN (Metahuman News Network) and you would do a piece on this for our blog. We'll illustrate it as well and give you credit.

Contact me at ghemcartographer@yahoo.com for further info.

Check my sig (From the Shadows) to see where it would be posted.

Posted by: mfb Jul 24 2007, 10:45 PM

QUOTE (Snow Fox)

No that's just trying to sell to a market that doesn't need them. Ork fangs, not tusks, fangs don't portrude as much and do get a lot of use in eating. having seen many an ork at the Big Rhino tease me about having 'puny little human teeth' to eat ribs with, I think any such ornamentation on orks would be a waste.

i think there are a lot of orks who would take fairly strong offense to that line of thinking. yes, orks could dress nice and fit in with smoothie society... sorta, as second-class citizens in fact if not in law. or, they could reject smoothie society and embrace their own cultural identity. if they're going to be second-class citizens anyway, what's the point in grovelling?

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jul 24 2007, 10:47 PM

Sons of Sauron wants YOU!
*note - need more orkish looking emoticon*

Posted by: mfb Jul 24 2007, 10:58 PM

hm, it occurs to me that i don't have any SoS characters. though i've always wondered what the hell orks have to do with some guy that can turn into a pterodactyl...

Posted by: Angelone Jul 24 2007, 11:02 PM

<---I always thought that one looked the most orcish. Even though the horns could be taken as elven ears in that case it be a banshee.

Posted by: Fortune Jul 24 2007, 11:34 PM

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)

*note - need more orkish looking emoticon*

Only if you get an elf icon as well.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 24 2007, 11:49 PM

I, at least, do not want to see this place go the way of some fanboards with smilies for every single subject-related thing imaginable (UT-related boards and the OOTS boards, I'm looking at you).

~J

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jul 25 2007, 05:04 PM

QUOTE (mfb)

QUOTE (Snow Fox)

I agree with you. Such changed ones will never be human and it is a shame that someone should try to make them think they can be accepted among normal people. The sooner they accept that they cannot, and they they must accept their place in society. They will be much happier than people wishing for something they will never have.
Snow fox you are just being cruel to make them think they can socialize with real humans on an equal social footing.

Posted by: mfb Jul 25 2007, 07:23 PM

i think there are a lot of orks who would reject the value of being accepted as 'normal'. they would see it as a rigged game. humans get to define what 'normal' means, so 'normal' is always going to mean 'human'--therefore, the best a meta can hope for, within the rules of the game, is to be almost normal. i think a lot of orks would want to get out of the game entirely, give the finger to normality, and be themselves.

granted, 99% of them are going to be themselves by dressing and acting like who the media says they should dress and act like. people are sheep whether they have canines or tusks.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jul 26 2007, 08:02 PM

And orks, even more than people, are sheep. since tests have shown that they do have a diminished mental ability so they are more likely to be affected by media trends than are people.

Posted by: Particle_Beam Jul 26 2007, 09:28 PM

Only in SR 3. In SR 4, they suddenly become mentaly normal as every other metahuman, and simply have a limit of how smart they maximally can get.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jul 27 2007, 12:32 PM

That is splitting hairs from a politically correct survey conducted by a pro-ork lobby. Stick with facts. It is a well known fact that changed ones are less intelligent and more brutal than real people are.

Posted by: Ancient History Jul 27 2007, 12:53 PM

You're only saying that 'cause you're married to one.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jul 27 2007, 04:37 PM

My husband is human. I would not support the mixing of species. It only causes grief to the community in general.

Posted by: Particle_Beam Jul 28 2007, 12:45 AM

So what? You're a ninja, for fracking sake!!! Ninjas are their own species, different from humans as are the other metatypes. You are quite now guilty of interspecies mixing. Don't you tell us anything about facts and truths, when you're an admitted killing machine that flips out and makes backflips in the shadows and other stuff.

Posted by: Fortune Jul 28 2007, 01:27 AM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

I would not support the mixing of species. It only causes grief to the community in general.

That's ... just ... funny!

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jul 30 2007, 03:59 PM

QUOTE (Particle_Beam)

You are sadly confusing myths and street handles with facts. I am human. Orks are not. Humans and orks are clearly different species.

Posted by: John Campbell Jul 30 2007, 08:30 PM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

You are sadly confusing myths and street handles with facts. I am human. Orks are not. Humans and orks are clearly different species.

Actually, the fact that such mixing is possible, and results in fertile offspring, means that orks and humans are, by definition, the same species.

Also, while studies indicate that orks and trolls are, on average, less intelligent than humans, there's no evidence supporting the assertion that orks are more easily influenced than humans. Some studies conducted prior to 2060 do indicate that trolls are more easily influenced than humans, but, strangely, this is not evident in post-2060 studies, even using the same methodology.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 30 2007, 08:37 PM

Actually, studies from 2061, 2063, and 2064 all show quite clearly that Trolls are significantly more susceptible to influence than humans.

~J

Posted by: mfb Jul 30 2007, 10:22 PM

that's inaccurate. trolls (and orks) are less likely to spot logical flaws in concepts they are presented with. therefore, it's easier to fool an ork or a troll into doing what you want them to do. more direct methods of influence, such as threats, work no better or worse on trolls than on humans.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Jul 31 2007, 01:28 AM

As the years go by, the average IQ, EQ, and social aptitude scores for orks and trolls have been steadily increasing. 2 decades ago it was obvious in the studies that orks and trolls had diminished capabilities. These days the statistics compare favorably with all metatypes, with limitation only apparent at the top end.

Why? Well, the experts theorize a few reasons. First is that the first generations of orcs and trolls Goblinized, rather than being born that way. The traumatic nature of goblinization often lead to Brain damage, PTSD and psychosis. The second generation of gobliniods were usually raised by this first generation, who had notably poor parenting skills. Also, a hostile society (and diminished mental health) would push these groups to the lower ends of society, the edges, where education is neither readily available nor held in high regard. Most statistics you see for gobliniod mental ability do not normalize across economic class. Economic class has it's own (large) distinct effect on these scores, and to fail to account for it is unscientific.

Thus first generation orcs had terrific mental handicaps due to trauma. Second generation orcs had better metnal health but worse education. Both facts lead to significant difficulties performing on the standardized intelligence and social aptitude tests.

However, Third generation orcs were born to the comparitively more stable second generation orcs, many to parents who had come to terms with their identity, and so grew up in generally more positive environments. Also, societal prejudice had lessened somewhat, and comparatively more educational opportunities were available. Beginning with these third generation gobliniods, measured disparity between humans and gobliniods began to decrease. This increase in the tested abilities of gobliniods has continued for the last decade. As trends towards normalization of gobliniods continue, some researchers beleive that the difference may disappear altogether.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jul 31 2007, 02:10 AM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

QUOTE (mfb @ Jul 24 2007, 05:45 PM)

QUOTE (Snow Fox)

If you could get past your purer than thou prejudice you'd know that Orks are people too. It took me a long time to get accepted at the Big Rhino (the things I do for decent ribs) but once I was accepted as one of the gang and in on many of the jokes it was easy to see that orks are just hard working joes who got handed a lousy card,genetically, but play it well and just want a chance, wehat any normal person wants.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jul 31 2007, 12:40 PM

Snow Fox- a lot of corpers like to go slumming too. That doesn't mean they really think those people they mix with when they do so are their equals.

QUOTE (John Campbell @ Jul 30 2007, 03:30 PM)

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

You are sadly confusing myths and street handles with facts. I am human. Orks are not. Humans and orks are clearly different species.

There are always depraved individuals willing to perform unnatural acts. look at earlier forms of beastiality. As for the orks who look to touch human women, they are to be pitied. When was the last time you saw an ork or troll spokesmodel at a car show or high fashion? The media bombard these poor creatures with the idea that human is the desired norm and what they should want. It is like in the last century ,there was a white blond child's toy that was supposed to be the height of beauty. I think it was called 'Barry.' It was so plugged by the media that even little girls who were not white or blond would rather play with her than with dolls that looked like they did.

The platonic pimp is making the usual pc argument from the left, to show that 'orks aren't that bad' but the fact that universities have to devote huge amount of time and money to come up with a very few supporting numbers shows my point. There are always a few above average types and these poor souls are grabbed by the liberal left as 'proof' of their ridiculous claims. Instead of being left in their communities where their abilities would make them natural leaders and capable of bettering their fellows, they are dragged into the human world to be shown off as 'proof' of the latest liberal theory in the 21st century equivelant of a side show.

Kagetenchi understands the truth of this.

Posted by: Pendaric Jul 31 2007, 01:28 PM

As a human I can only stand agast at the Humanis point of view. The majority of humans are lack lustre, savage sheep lead by the corporate spin doctors and lacking in indivduality or basic politeness. Humanis supporters are typified by a smug superiority leading to a patronising stance at best and mindless rudeness at worst. There is no excuse for poor manners.
By comparison the majority of orks leading a far more violent existance remember the essence of respect and civilisation, is to be civil.

I remember fondly meeting an unruly mob of Humanis yahoos and correcting their etiquette accordingly. Bigotry is such a course face of humanity.

Posted by: Angelone Jul 31 2007, 01:32 PM

Last group of orcs I met tried to rob and kill me. Last group of humans I met bought me drinks and partied with me til dawn. There is the difference.

Posted by: Pendaric Jul 31 2007, 01:44 PM

Judge on individual terms not generic racial ones. If humans have a greater intellect why do they refuse to use it?

Posted by: John Campbell Jul 31 2007, 04:32 PM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

QUOTE (John Campbell @ Jul 30 2007, 03:30 PM)

Actually, the fact that such mixing is possible, and results in fertile offspring, means that orks and humans are, by definition, the same species.

There are always depraved individuals willing to perform unnatural acts. look at earlier forms of beastiality.

The difference is, when some guy gets it on with a sheep, you don't end up with lambs. Human-ork matings produce baby orks, who can produce more baby orks. In fact, it doesn't happen much anymore, but human-human matings can produce baby orks. If you go back a few generations, all orks have pure-human ancestry. Biologically, orks are human. Magically-altered humans, but human nonetheless.

This applies to the other metatypes as well. We're all interfertile (though there are some, uh, logistical difficulties with certain combinations); therefore, we're all, by definition, the same species.

QUOTE

As for the orks who look to touch human women, they are to be pitied. When was the last time you saw an ork or troll spokesmodel at a car show or high fashion? The media bombard these poor creatures with the idea that human is the desired norm and what they should want. It is like in the last century ,there was a white blond child's toy that was supposed to be the height of beauty. I think it was called 'Barry.' It was so plugged by the media that even little girls who were not white or blond would rather play with her than with dolls that looked like they did.

I don't think it's debatable that widespread discrimination against orks, by media and others, exists. I'm not sure what you're bringing this up in support of; it seems to me that it's a better point in support of the other side.

QUOTE

The platonic pimp is making the usual pc argument from the left, to show that 'orks aren't that bad' but the fact that universities have to devote huge amount of time and money to come up with a very few supporting numbers shows my point. There are always a few above average types and these poor souls are grabbed by the liberal left as 'proof' of their ridiculous claims. Instead of being left in their communities where their abilities would make them natural leaders and capable of bettering their fellows, they are dragged into the human world to be shown off as 'proof' of the latest liberal theory in the 21st century equivelant of a side show.

The vast majority of humans aren't all that bright, either.

QUOTE

Kagetenchi understands the truth of this.

Who?

Posted by: DuckEggBlue Omega Jul 31 2007, 04:56 PM

QUOTE (John Campbell @ Jul 31 2007, 06:00 AM)

Actually, the fact that such mixing is possible, and results in fertile offspring, means that orks and humans are, by definition, the same species.

QUOTE (John Campbell)

This applies to the other metatypes as well. We're all interfertile (though there are some, uh, logistical difficulties with certain combinations); therefore, we're all, by definition, the same species.

That's a common misconception. Interspecific hybrids (hybrids between different species) are usually sterile, HOWEVER, there are a number of known instances of fertile interspecific hybrids, most commonly occuring in the Bos and Canis genera.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 31 2007, 06:12 PM

QUOTE (John Campbell)

The difference is, when some guy gets it on with a sheep, you don't end up with lambs.

Oh, certainly. Nevertheless, that doesn't make them human in any meaningful fashion.

QUOTE

I don't think it's debatable that widespread discrimination against orks, by media and others, exists.

It is absolutely debatable. Orks are overrepresented in scholarship grants. Orks are notoriously difficult to fire without a lawsuit resulting. Orks on airplanes aren't subject to the same kind of security and guarding that humans with cyberarms that are weaker than that ork's natural arms are subject to. That's not even getting into Trolls.

Orks were discriminated against once, but they've parlayed that into a nice, comfortable advantaged position. Where are the foundations to help underprivileged humans? There are more underprivileged humans than there are underprivileged Orks, but any attempt to found a charity to specifically benefit underprivileged humans gets shouted down with cries of racism. On the other hand, there are no less than twenty Ork-only charities in Seattle alone.

Come back to me when a SINless human has a quarter the opportunities available to him that a SINless Ork does, and we can talk about "discrimination against Orks".

~J

Posted by: mfb Jul 31 2007, 06:24 PM

QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega)

Interspecific hybrids (hybrids between different species) are usually sterile, HOWEVER, there are a number of known instances of fertile interspecific hybrids, most commonly occuring in the Bos and Canis genera.

if the interbreeding happens often enough, the offspring will eventually replace both species--which, if you accept the unsupported hypothesis that orks and humans (and elves and trolls) were different species to begin with, is what appears to have happened here. there are no 'pure' metatypes, only humans who express their genetic heritage differently. Daddy's Little Ninja simply happens to have expressed her Tojo Hideki genes, rather than her Neil the Ork Barbarian genes. that doesn't make her any more purely human than the orks she pities, the same way Menel's purple-flowered peas were not necessarily more purely purple than his white-flowered peas.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jul 31 2007, 06:40 PM

A very good point. and it shows the support of the liberal left who like to wave flags rather than really achieve things.

I do not support Humanis ideals that call for blood shed against changed ones. I believe they have rights and a place and should be pitied for their disadvantages but they should not be elevated to a degree that they are incapable of holding on their own.

For those who point out human/ork breeding. you are proving my ponit that orks are not at the same level as humans. Such horrors usually result in ork children. Orks breeding with orks do not breed humans. this is like the way that off spring of people genetically damaged by radiation pass that damage to their children.

Posted by: mfb Jul 31 2007, 07:07 PM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

Orks breeding with orks do not breed humans. this is like the way that off spring of people genetically damaged by radiation pass that damage to their children.

which is the entire point. everybody has that 'damage'. there is no such thing as interspecies breeding among humans and metahumans because everyone has metagenes. unexpressed, in the case of most humans, but they're there. you might walk through a manaline tomorrow and sprout tusks.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jul 31 2007, 09:21 PM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

Orks breeding with orks do not breed humans.

Not often no, but the line in discussion of giants in Companion states that giants have an above average rate of having regular human children (25% of daughters) as metahumans go, it doesn't state that giants are the only metatype to have regular human offspring.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Aug 1 2007, 04:58 AM

QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Jul 31 2007, 01:40 PM)

Orks breeding with orks do not breed humans.

When I read in the Companion that I had an inspiration of a character who's background is one where he's a human born to troll (or ork) parents, and all his sibilings are troll (or orks). I was curious how his life would be growing up in such an environment, the jealousy by his siblings that he was born 'normal' and the taunts and such from the other kid trolls (or orks). Then there's the other part, of where he's also family and what do they do. Will he as he grows up attempt to hide where he came from? Or does he do the opposite. Anyway, just some thoughts that came to me when I read that part for the giants and interpreting it that giants have a higher percentage, but are not the only metas with this chance of reversion back to humans.

Posted by: DuckEggBlue Omega Aug 1 2007, 03:56 PM

QUOTE (mfb)

QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega)

if the interbreeding happens often enough, the offspring will eventually replace both species...

...the same way Menel's purple-flowered peas were not necessarily more purely purple than his white-flowered peas.

I wasn't saying metahumans are different species, I was only pointing out that the idea that interbreeding = same species, is false. The 'science' people are presenting is wrong.

Speaking of, interbreeding wouldn't just have to occur 'often enough' for the species to be replaced, it would need to occur to the exclusion of all else, and even then there's a chance the original species could re-occur.

And there's very little point mentioning Mendelian Inheritance when the races violate Mendel's Laws. There's even less point if your ignoring that you can very much have people with 'pure' Mendelian traits (and in the case of recessive traits, it's neccesary) or that the dominance/reccesiveness of a particular allele is fixed.

The metaraces are magical, and trying to introduce science into this argument is pointless. I think the fact that the metas all came from humans is proof enough that they are also human.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Aug 1 2007, 04:00 PM

QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega)

I think the fact that the metas all came from humans is proof enough that they are also human.

...or that they're post-human.

Posted by: DuckEggBlue Omega Aug 1 2007, 04:10 PM

Well not really 'post' in the case of orcs and trolls with goblinisation.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Aug 1 2007, 04:14 PM

QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega)

Well not really 'post' in the case of orcs and trolls with goblinisation.

I suppose the goblinized would be the trans-humans, in this example.

Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 1 2007, 04:27 PM

Orks and Humans are different. Orks are superior to humans in every way. The extinction of Human-kind within the next century is inevitable, as is the rise of Ork-kind as the dominant species on the planet. This is how it is and how it should be. Inferiors should not lament their end, but embrace it.

Posted by: DuckEggBlue Omega Aug 1 2007, 04:39 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Orks are superior to humans in ever way.

"You don't get it, Steve. That doesn't matter."

Posted by: mfb Aug 1 2007, 04:44 PM

QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega)

I wasn't saying metahumans are different species, I was only pointing out that the idea that interbreeding = same species, is false. The 'science' people are presenting is wrong.

fair 'nuff. i was mainly aiming my response at DLN and Snow Fox, to be honest.

re: reverse discrimination, Kage skewed his facts. yes, there are more disadvantaged humans than disadvantaged orks--because there are more humans than orks. the percentage of the ork population who are disadvantaged is much, much higher than the percentage of humans who are disadvantaged.

and as far as human-oriented assistance programs, i'm pretty sure Kage's smoking crack. there are any number of grants, scholarships, basic skill programs, job-search networks, and the like funded by Humanis.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Aug 2 2007, 12:34 PM

And that shows the arrogance of the changed ones who listen to their demagogic leadership who equates brute strength with ability.

Metas may have come from humans, but that does not mean they are humans now. Humans came from apes and we are not apes now. Again I will say that the unfortunate changed ones do have a place in society but they get into trouble when some well meaning left leaning academic tries to give them ideas of living in a way they cannot handle and which the media dupes them into thinking is the only way to be happy.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Aug 2 2007, 01:38 PM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

Metas may have come from humans, but that does not mean they are humans now.

Apparently, you dislike reading. Human regression is a (rare) possibility in children of metahumans. Thus, orks came from humans (and still do rarely) and humans rarely come from orks.

Now, as to whether orks are still 'humans' is a matter of definition, since they are biologically equivalent. And the accepted definition is that they are a subspecies, genentically compatible but distinctly different from the other 4 subspecies of humanity.

Now, argue the sociological side all you want, but the biologist assessment is established, and will not be disproven by your rants.

Posted by: mfb Aug 2 2007, 06:39 PM

see, that's why a lot of orks don't even try to fit in with smoothie society: the blatantly two-faced crap they have to listen to. DLN keeps saying orks should keep to the back of the bus, but i guarantee she tells her own kids they can grow up to be CEO or president or something. you'll tell a human to stretch beyond his inherent limitations, but you feed orks that "don't go chasing waterfalls" happy claptrap.

yes, orks have limitations. so do humans. you wouldn't tell a human to stop weightlifting because physical strength isn't an ability he's naturally gifted in--so why tell an ork to stop trying to be smarter or better liked?

[ Spoiler ]

Posted by: Kagetenshi Aug 2 2007, 06:45 PM

Yeah! And a dog can be a scientist, too!

~J

Posted by: mfb Aug 2 2007, 06:55 PM

if i ever met a dog that wanted to be a scientist, i wouldn't try to stop him. i might take him on the talkshow circuit and make a buttload of money off him, but i wouldn't try to stop him from being a scientist.

besides, dogs have nothing to do with the discussion. in every field humans have delved into, there are orks, trolls, dwarves, and elves delving right along side them. whatever limitations metas may have, they're not limiting enough to justify barring them from any human activity.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Aug 2 2007, 07:01 PM

QUOTE (mfb)

whatever limitations metas may have, they're not limiting enough to justify barring them from any human activity.

Well, aside from amusement park and water park rides that haven't been enlarged for the troll crowd yet. And then there's all the roller coasters that effectively have 'no dwarves allowed' with their height requirement. On the plus side, dwarves tend to save money at buffets that have height based pricing guidelines...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Aug 2 2007, 07:13 PM

Show me an Ork who does serious work in particle physics. Show me an Ork who has contributed significant original understanding to combinatorics. Orks and Trolls are simply not represented in many fields, and promising minds who have undergone late Goblinization have fallen into obscurity. This is not coincidence.

~J

Posted by: Particle_Beam Aug 2 2007, 07:32 PM

How should one show an Ork working seriously in particle physics? All humans and metahumans in SR are absolutely ficitional, so you can invent them up on the fly however you want.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 2 2007, 08:53 PM

And so, meet Bob, the orc Particle Physicist!

Seriously though, How do you know? Unlike last centuries ethnicity, you can't determine if a person is an ork, a troll, an elf, dwarf or human from their name. Any one of the scientists who publishes papers could be any metatype. You'd have to look up the personal life of the scientist to find out. In fact, in order to judge at all, you'd have to do it to a representative sample of the scientific community in order to get meaningful statistics to judge.

You'll note I didn't trot out individually gifted metas. I referenced studies. Studies showing that across the board meta performance in academic tests has improved. I offered some theories as to why that may be, but the data itself is incontrovertable (as the editions have come, the penalty to intelligence and charisma in orcs and trolls has decreased)

I've seen some meaningful statistics on this, actually, and you are right, there ARE few orcs and trolls in the scientific community. There are also few dwarves in the scientific community, and if you correct for the Tirs, an equally small number of elves. Neither dwarves or elves have ever shown difficulty in academic performance statistically. Given the equally small number of all metatypes in the scientific community, it's far more appropriate to assume a systemic bias against metahumans, instead of any performance-based limitation on the part of any single metatype.

Posted by: Pendaric Aug 2 2007, 09:37 PM

There are lies, damn lies and statistics.
Taking the two Tir's as an example, there are very few successful human scientists.
Racism works not a practical level but on an elitist one, a desire to make what you wish to believe true happen. In the shadows the majority of orcs and trolls are more than capable of intelligent abstraction.
The capabilities of the Sons of Sauron are equivalent to the Hand of Five, for example.
Gifted artists span across the metatypes, better demonstrating the collective humanity.

Posted by: mfb Aug 2 2007, 09:42 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

you're right--it's not a coincidence. it proves that prejudice against orks and trolls still has a strong negative impact on their ability to succeed and advance in smoothie society, despite all the programs that support them. maybe there's solid reasoning for that prejudice, maybe there isn't--but your line of logic doesn't prove, or even suggest, anything either way.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 2 2007, 09:46 PM

Statistics are only lies when you the methodology used to gather them remains undisclosed. In science, there are three forms of data, in ascending order of usefulness: Case studies, General studies, and repeatable experiments. You can't generalize from a case study, but you CAN generalize from general studies. You can generalize from repeated experiments, and you can infer causation as well. Now we'll never know causation for certain in subjects like these, because the exxperiments would be horrible unethical. So general studies are the best we've got to go on.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Aug 3 2007, 02:35 PM

QUOTE (mfb)

[ Spoiler ]

But I would tell a person who was trying to compete with an ork or troll in weightlifting that they could not hope to compete and should understand their limitations.

As for the idea that a dog would not make a scientist, I think it is valid. the fact the dog cannot let you know what he wants is not proof he does not want it, just further reinforces the image. A great many trolls and orks are not terribly articulate either. If just speech is a requirment then you arem aking my case for me. Orks are just not capable of acting at the same level as people and to make them think otherwise, just to stroke some human guilt does them only a great disservice.

Posted by: mfb Aug 3 2007, 02:57 PM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

But I would tell a person who was trying to compete with an ork or troll in weightlifting that they could not hope to compete and should understand their limitations.

and by doing so, you'd be screwing a whole lot of humans out of their trophies, since humans in the 75kg class win about as often as their ork and troll competitors. of course, the real problem with your argument is that you're putting it in terms of competition--of us versus them--which means that anytime they succeed, then you have lost, in your eyes. you're choosing to view metahumans as the enemy, however much sugar you try and coat it with.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Aug 4 2007, 01:19 AM

If you haven't figured it out DLN is Japanese. She's reliable on a run but does not work well with metas. Her prejudices are pretty well established by her culture and she has the blinders on that won't let her see the good to be found in all people.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Aug 4 2007, 01:26 AM

It's laughable that someone trying to claim that Orks are people too is calling someone blinkered. Appointed your horse to lead the Senate recently?

~J

Posted by: mfb Aug 4 2007, 01:51 AM

unsurprising that the guy preaching hate is the first one to go for the name-calling.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Aug 4 2007, 02:23 AM

Agreed. There was no call for such blatant racism, like the following:

QUOTE (Snow_Fox)

But I don't think Snow_Fox is a guy.

~J

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 4 2007, 02:27 AM

I must have totally missed something in this conversation. Where is the hate and racism in that comment? Cultural stereotyping, sure, but there's a big different between that and "racism." Particularly in the context it's being used here. And I don't see how there's any namecalling at all. "OMFG, she called her Japanese! RACIST! RACIST!" ???

Posted by: Kagetenshi Aug 4 2007, 02:43 AM

"She's Japanese, so obviously she's prejudiced and blinkered and can't work with metas!"

~J

Posted by: Ravor Aug 4 2007, 02:45 AM

>>> Tell that to my chummer Blizt, oh wait, he was gacked by a couple of Trogs because everyone knows that all Japanese people drink the blood of meta babies before breakfest. <<< -Trell

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 4 2007, 02:49 AM

That would be the cultural stereotyping which, again, is different than racism. Especially if it's true and especially if it's true because she chose that trait due to the cultural stereotyping.

You'll also note that the way Snow Fox said it, her being Japanese was simply another trait of hers ("She's Japanese, she's reliable, but doesn't work well with metas") -- you're the one who put them together. So doesn't that make you the racist by your terms? You're the one assuming she's racist because she's Japanese.

"I'm an American. I like to eat fast food and watch television." OMFG I'm a self-hating American!

Posted by: mfb Aug 4 2007, 02:54 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

"She's Japanese, so obviously she's prejudiced and blinkered and can't work with metas!"

~J

well, isn't that true? haven't the vast, vast majority of Japanese citizens and Japan-based corporations shown a persistent bias against metahumans, to the point where Japan has the highest incidence of 'vanished' metahumans, according to Amnesty Int'l? to the point where, when one of their own CEOs was transformed into a 'changed one', Yamatetsu was forced to relocate their headquarters?

Posted by: Ravor Aug 4 2007, 02:59 AM

>>> Whatever you want to call it, doesn't make Blizt any less dead and it doesn't change the fact that the Trogs gacked him because of what you want to call "cultural stereotyping". <<< -Trell

Posted by: Ravor Aug 4 2007, 03:10 AM

>>> So what if it's true that a majority of Japenese citizens are racist fraggers? Does that somehow excuse Blizt's death because his murders had probably been discrimated against at some point in their lives? <<< -Trell

Posted by: Ravor Aug 4 2007, 03:34 AM

>>> Oh and something that I missed the first scan through, you cleverly quit quoting Snow_Fox just before she tied DLN's racist traits with being Japenese. In fact, Snow_Fox had to go out of her fragging way to bring DLN's nationality into the discussion. <<< -Trell

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Aug 4 2007, 04:05 AM

yeeesh, this thread has gotten to the point where I ain't touching it with a ten foot pole. maybe an eleven foot one but not a ten foot one.

Posted by: Ravor Aug 4 2007, 08:06 AM

Eh? And here I thought everyone was being fairly civil by Dumpshock standards, especially considering the powderkeg nature of the subject matter and the In-Character viewpoints.

Posted by: mfb Aug 4 2007, 10:33 AM

QUOTE (Ravor @ Aug 3 2007, 10:10 PM)

if you really want to make something meaningful out of your friend's memory, you could start by not using racist epithets like "trog". sucks for your friend, but he kinda proves the point i'm making: people shouldn't judge other people on the basis of what they're born as, be it Japanese or ork.

what's really sick and sad is how completely blind--blinkered, you could call it--most racists are to the lack of differentiation between metatypes. what separates an ork from a human? genetics? everybody has ork genes--only some of us haven't expressed them. intelligence? there are plenty of humans with far, far lower intelligence than the average ork. what it comes down to is that the only differentiation between the metatypes is their phenotype--what they look like. we learn all about phenotype purists in history class. the slaveowners of the old US are one example, but why pussyfoot around? let's just go ahead and throw down the Hitler card and watch all the neo-Nazis--oops, Humanis!--sputter about how this is different.

[ Spoiler ]

Posted by: Pendaric Aug 4 2007, 03:28 PM

I find most racists vulgar and amusing in turns. The imagination they bring to bear to justify their point is enormous, yet they lack the insight to realise how limited they are in their perceptive ability. A true mental shackle prohibiting the full range of action.
Almost childishly naive in their way....not true innocents of course but sharing some of the petulant sweetness of an errant child.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Aug 4 2007, 09:42 PM

Can I point out what I meant was that it is a well known fact that for decades the Japanese culture has had a significant bias against metahumans. DLN, as an Ethnic Japanese human raised in that culture, is afftected by that bias.

Posted by: Fortune Aug 4 2007, 09:46 PM

QUOTE (Pendaric)

I find most races vulgar and amusing in turns.

Fixed it for you.

Posted by: Pendaric Aug 4 2007, 10:54 PM

Eoerintish, Fortune.

Posted by: Adam Aug 4 2007, 11:04 PM

QUOTE (Fortune)

QUOTE (Pendaric @ Aug 5 2007, 01:28 AM)

I find most races vulgar and amusing in turns.

Fixed it for you.

Admin post: Do not edit someone's text when quoting them.

Posted by: Fortune Aug 4 2007, 11:21 PM

Alright, but in fairness I did specifically point out that I had done so, and it was obviously merely in jest.

Incidentally, I've seen this exact same thing done (in pretty much the exact same manner) dozens of times on the Dumpshock forums alone, and I have never seen an Administrative admonishment accompanying any such post in the past. Is this a new policy?

Posted by: Fortune Aug 4 2007, 11:23 PM

QUOTE (Pendaric @ Aug 5 2007, 08:54 AM)

Eoerintish...

I'm not familiar with that particular word.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 4 2007, 11:44 PM

QUOTE (Fortune)

QUOTE (Pendaric @ Aug 5 2007, 08:54 AM)

Eoerintish...

I'm not familiar with that particular word.

((Eoerin is the Sperenthiel word for a wise person or theologist, basically. Shame on you for not knowing Mr. Always Plays an Elf. Shame.))

Posted by: Adam Aug 5 2007, 12:03 AM

Despite not having a fancy colour, this is an admin post!

QUOTE

Incidentally, I've seen this exact same thing done (in pretty much the exact same manner) dozens of times on the Dumpshock forums alone, and I have never seen an Administrative admonishment accompanying any such post in the past. Is this a new policy?

I haven't seen it dozens of times, which is unfortunate, because I would have posted about it sooner.

We're discussing backstage exactly how this will be handled in the future. If you're like to give further feedback about it, please start a thread in the News / Bug Reports / etc forum.

Posted by: Ravor Aug 5 2007, 01:38 AM

>>> When the trogs quit using the word amongst themselves then so will I. As for racism being only about what someone looks like, that may have been true for my pappy's pappy, when claims of such-and-such ethic group being mentally substandard fell apart once you adjusted the studies for social status, but the fact remains that the smartest trog in the world is measurably less intelligent then the smartest human, dwarf, or elf. If that simple fact changes then I'll have to reconsider my stance of course, but I won't be holding my breath, not when I have a couple of dirty trogs to gut. <<< -Trell

Posted by: Fortune Aug 5 2007, 07:12 AM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

Shame on you for not knowing Mr. Always Plays an Elf. Shame.

Damn! You're right, I should have known.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 6 2007, 03:40 AM

QUOTE (Ravor)

Yeah, but the dumbest human, orc, troll, elf, and dwarf are all on the same level. Take a look around at the people you meet everyday and tell me which is more telling, the highest levels an individual might reach, or the lowest common denominator.

And frankly, They don't need to be smarter than Einstien. They simply need to be smarter than YOU. Which is what worries you, isn't it? I'm sure that, since you feel physically inadequate compared to metas, you desparately need to feel intellectually superior. You're acting like that the geek in high school who just found out the football player gets strait A's too. So Jimmy linebacker got better scores on his SAT than you? You gonna shoot up the school in your angst? Pathetic.

Posted by: Ravor Aug 6 2007, 07:46 AM

>>> Heh, sorry to disappoint you but I'm fully aware that the lowest common denominator among humans, dwarves and trogs are roughly the same, but the last time I checked even the dumbest elf still scored higher if you used overall IQ as a benchmark as opposed the the old school studies that only looked at a narrow section of intelligence.

And let's not forget that with all the really nice brainboosting toys that keep coming out you can take your lowest common denominator trog and human, and post augmentation through either technology or magic the trog will still be measureably dumber then the human, who in turn would still score lower then an elf undergoing the same treatments.

Which proves once again that trogs aren't just ugly humans, there are real differences. <<< -Trell

Posted by: Angelone Aug 6 2007, 09:55 AM

QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)

So just because someone states the well documented facts that orcs and trolls are stronger physically, but not mentally, they are angsty inadequate "geeks" who will shoot up schools? That is worse than any other racism I've read, you drek for brains metahuman apologist.

PS

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Aug 6 2007, 04:02 PM

While I dislike approving anything said by someone who advocated violence against changed ones the point is valid. Certainly there are dumb humans who rate on a scale withthe average ork and there are a few orks who are above average in their outlook, but when looking at the greater numbers and the overall averages, orks are clearly inferior to people.

Some have made a ponit about Japanese culture having a different view of changed ones. this is true. we do not waste money on cuddly pc surveys by over paid sociologists to make a warm and fuzzy feeling about all men are equal so we should all have a group hug. The changed ones are not men and are not equal. Unlike the melting pot that is the UCAS, Japan has been blessed with a single ethnic identity for centuries. It porvides great strength and assurance for the people. There is no need to bring in outside influences and cultures as what we have works well. If you question that just look at the domiance of the Japanese industry in the world.

Again I do not want to see Changed Ones punished, they should be pitied. But this does not mean they should be coddled or cruelly taught that they are the equals of real people.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 6 2007, 05:34 PM

QUOTE (Angelone)

No, you are right, people who point out there are differences between the metatypes are not "angsty, inadequate geeks". At least, not as a causal link. However, people who say

QUOTE

I have a couple of dirty trogs to gut.

are.

here's the real deal. It's not the observation that there are differences between the metatypes that's the issue here. Arguing that is a straw man, a red herring. Of course there are differences. That doesn't mean that different metatypes should be given different opportunities.

For one, the statistical variation between individuals is greater than the statistical variation between metatypes. Even if you can prove that orcs are on average 10% less intelligent than humans (and I'm being generous, as we could compare studies all day and never come to a conclusion), that's not even a full standard deviation on IQ tests. Similarly, the range of strength is greater than the average difference between orcs and humans. The only case where the difference is of great significance is in comparing physical size and build of trolls against any other metatype.

This means that racial profiling doesn't deliver a meaningful analysis of an individuals capability. Even if some metatypes are less intelligent on average, any given member of that metatype is likely to display above average intelligence. You cannot know unless you test that person by the exact same standards, you cannot know unless you give them the chance to prove themselves.

But the far more important point, a point entirely independant of measurable results, is that we have no business trying to tell anyone, regardless of metatype, where they should focus their efforts. Even if an orc will have difficulties that a human wouldn't in a particular line (again, not provable, but I'm briefly conceding the point because it's not important to this argument), you have no right to try and dissuade them from their course of action. Metahumans are sentient, even if they aren't human, and have the same rights to self-sovereignity as any sentient.

Posted by: Ravor Aug 6 2007, 06:40 PM

>>> Hmm? Surely even a half-scan wouldn't dare to seriously suggest that I should take a "forgive and forget" stance with the dirty trogs that killed my chummer. Man I know I'd "love" to have people like that watching my back during biz. <<< -Trell

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Aug 6 2007, 07:16 PM

If I get into harms way, I know I'd prefer the company of some who would seek vengeance against the ones who sought me ill, rather than just anyone who looked kinda like them.

On Pimp's debate, you have full rights and even responsibility to warn another of challenges they may face. Denying them the right to face those challenges is a different issue. Much as I may warn Trell that his foolish crusade against any human bigger than himself will fail miserably, but I do nothing to restrain him from it.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 6 2007, 07:34 PM

And that's fair. However, putting additional obstacles in their path to "dissuade them" is not. Prejudice is not an inherent obstacle. Really, if your concerns about their ability are valid, then simply allowing them to act unfettered by any artificial limitation will show that validity. People who beleive that certain metatypes are unfit for certian tasks should be overjoyed to give them a fair try at it, because it's an opportunity to prove their claims. Rarely are bigots so willing to expose their theories to the test. Rather they act like their prejudice is justified a-priori, and that WE have the burden of proof on us, that we have to prove ourselves capable before being given the chance to prove ourselves capable.

Posted by: Ravor Aug 6 2007, 08:22 PM

>>> Sure, if that is all you want I'll freely admit that I've known a few trogs who were hands down smarter then I am just as I've known a few humans with an almost elven natural grace and beauty. But that doesn't change the brutal fact that nature is a heartless slitch, not only do trogs have an lesser mental capacity they can strive towards, their shorter livespans also serves as a pratical limit on the level of education and experience they can hope to achieve. But sure, if you really want to fight against the hand mother nature dealt you and enter a field where by the time you've finished your education you are already past your prime then by all means go for it if you can pass the same enterance exam that everyone else has to.

Just don't expect special treatment when you find that everyone else is very likely more experienced and smarter post augmentation then you can ever hope to be. <<< -Trell

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 6 2007, 09:35 PM

Special treatment is precisely what we don't want. Elves get special treatment in the Tirs. Humans get special treatment in most places. All we want is to be judged by the same standards.

The trouble is, one person's leveling the playing feild is another person's special treatment. I run into this all the time, where steps taken to counteract prejudice are interpreted as an unfair advantage. This is the card humanis is always playing. Like I said, if there are natural limitations or advantages, then they'll tell in a fair comparison. But the prejudice of society is not a natural limitation, it's an imposed one.

I may have made an error in regard to you, though. In your post, were you referring specifically to the orcs who murdered your friend?

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Aug 7 2007, 07:03 PM

Why 'level the field' at all. if peopel are allowed to seek their level they will settle out to their natural place. Leveling interfers with that. it says a person cannot make it to ap oint on their own and so they will be given a boost, potentially over better qualified people. In the case of changed ones they are often boosted into a spot they cannot handle. The end result is that they need 'help' and special circumstances. In the end they are miserable and the person who with good but misguided intentions boosted the changed one is in a worse place.

In the end there should be no leveling or help. Let people get by on their abilities and changed ones get by on theirs. The end result is that people will settle into the proper place and so with the changed ones and in the end everyone will be happy because no one will be forced into an unnatural situation.

Posted by: Pendaric Aug 7 2007, 07:27 PM

Thus the polite face of Lone Star's criminal profileing being solely directed at metahumans...

Posted by: Snow_Fox Aug 8 2007, 01:48 AM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

Let people get by on their abilities and changed ones get by on theirs.

Can I point out something that seems to have slipped by you dear? You should not be comparing people and metahumans. Meta humans ARE people.

Posted by: DuckEggBlue Omega Aug 8 2007, 02:51 PM

That's not all that's slipped passed her.

QUOTE (DNL)

If you question that just look at the domiance of the Japanese industry in the world.

How many of Big Ten are Japanese? 3. The UCAS has 2, and let's face it, Renraku barely deserve to be there. You did have more but your 'ethnic identity' meant EVO had to get out, as someone already mentioned. So yeah, that appears to be working out great for you. And what's the single biggest Mega? Saeder-Krupp, which isn't run by a human at all.

You keep talking about people not being delusioned about what they can and can't do. NEWS FLASH: Humans (Homo sapiens sapiens) are outclassed in EVERYTHING by SOMEONE! So same species or not, and even putting aside that the Great Dragons are the ones that run this ball of mud, why would you wan't to be 'human'. Elves and Dwarves have been shown to have superior mental abilities (and physically as well it should be pointed out), and Orks and Trolls are FAR stronger, so if you do buy the line that people should play to their talents and not delude thamselves, humans are little more than a waste of space. I don't buy that humanis crap myself, but if YOU follow it, how do you justify your exsistence? Dwarves and Elves are smarter and Orks and Trolls are bigger and stronger, a Humans only defining quality is that he is inferior in some way to everyone (or everything if you prefer) else around him. Go humans!

QUOTE ("mfb")

what separates an ork from a human? genetics? everybody has ork genes--only some of us haven't expressed them.

what it comes down to is that the only differentiation between the metatypes is their phenotype--what they look like.

Look, as much as I disagree with DLN, but bad science is bad science.

NOT everyone has ork genes. Meta-genetics isn't as straight forward due to it's inherently 'magical' nature, but the meta races are classified into diferent subspecies for a reason. And the 'only' differences being phenotypical does not change the fact that these phenotypes are the result of genetic differences between the metas.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 8 2007, 02:59 PM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

You "level the field" SO that people can stand on their own merits. In this metaphor, the landscape is not the people or their ability, it's the environment those abilities are used in. Think of people as buildings on that landscape. Imagine 2 buildings. One is taller than the other, yet sits in a valley. The other is on the hill. It reaches greater heights, despite being shorter. If the feild were level, the other buidling would reach greater heights.

Take it out of metaphor, an intelligent metahuman may be passed over for a position in favor of a less intelligent human, because of assumptions and not ability. I want ability to tell, just as much as you claim to, but I want it to tell on an individual basis. In order for ability to tell, you cannot make assuptions based on trivial factors such as metatype. Even if the statistics bear out the assumption that most orcs are less intelligent, you may be dealing with the exception to the rule.

So as to aviod talking cross purposes, let me be clear. To level the feild does not mean insuring that all people perform equally, that all reach the same heights. It means ensuring that all people can compete without impediment, that all begin at the same height. You say give no help. I say cause no hindrance.

And again, it ain't none of your business whether I choose something you'd call unnatural, or if I choose a path that makes me unhappy because it's more difficult for me. If anything was about being happy or natural, we never would have left the trees.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Aug 8 2007, 03:09 PM

QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega)

How many of Big Ten are Japanese? 3.

Renraku, Mitsuhama, Shiawase, Yamatetsu (they grew to be a mega under Japanese leadership, regardless of their current folly). That's four, and there's the old Fuchi before Villiers butchered it from within. The UCAS has a tiny little barely-AA that only has a CC seat through corporate treachery and one, one AAA worthy of the name.

~J

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Aug 8 2007, 04:18 PM

Right, and none from CAS, CFS England, France or any of the nations run by non-humans. Heck the so called elven nations are falling apart, showing clearly their advanced abilities are just a sham.

Platonic, my point is there is no need to level anything. Just let people perform without needless interference form outside groups and people will level out. Otherwise when you see some changed person in an office you wonder did they get there because of their own ability or were they given a hand up by someone and otherwise would not be there? You look at them and doubt their ability from the start, and so limit that rare talaneted changed one who can work with people on their own level.

Posted by: Pendaric Aug 8 2007, 09:26 PM

Are you proposing a more even-handed approach?
A situation where meta's rise in prominance within their own communities?
Without the interference of human capabilities and expectations?
For such to occur would require a minimal exposure to human communities.
Thus requiring physical distance between metahuman communities and human communities.
Obviously for the misguided on both sides an organisation would be needed to prevent the two communities from mixing.
This organisation would need guidelines and standard operating procedures, requiring legislation.
Due to metahuman nature this organisation's representatives would need to be armed and armoured.

To conclude you propose a small volcanic island in the middle of the phillipines, surrounded by guards with orders to shoot on sight.

History has a tendency to overthrow such concentration camps, re-educations centres, detention facilities, Yomi etc etc etc

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 8 2007, 09:40 PM

And yet you're convinced from the start that they can't do it, and you don't give them the chance. It's humand, regular humans, who have an initial leg up. They have no prejudice to overcome. Yes, when some form of "equal opportunity" is enforced, a metahuman may be hired over a better qualified human. But in every instance where it isn't enforced, a human will be hired over a better qualified metahuman. The playing feild isn't level.

So you count Yamatetsu, Huh, despite the "error of their ways"? That's interesting, and shows just how far you'll go to make the facts fit yoru world view. By that logic, should we consider all Japanacorps American, because it was American money, American techniques and American markets that built the japanese economy? But wait, it should be Britain who gets the credit, because without the British empire their would have been no USA. The japanese culture (not the japanese people, which is entirely different) doesn't support this kind of thinking. It traces back to where Japan is tops, and stops exactly there. You conviently ignore the metahuman at it's helm, and that it's corporate profits have not only recovered, tehy are higher than they were when they were headquartered in Japan. Did you forget that the top tier megacorp isn't run by a human, but a Dragon? In both your thinking on metahumans and your thinking on ethnic lines, you start with your conclusion and work backwards.

A lot of metahuman rights groups might do the same thing. I don't. There are definate areas of weakness when it comes to metahumans. Dwarves have height issues, and would be poor at jobs requiring stature. Trolls have the opposite problem, and would be poor at jobs requiring fitting in tight spaces. Many metahumans are stronger and tougher than normal humans. I'm even willing to accept that there are some mental limitations to certain metatypes. Yes, orcs test worse than humans, and trolls worst of all. Orcs and trolls tend to have worse people skills than humans. I accept the data. But the data is inconclusive as to the cause of this. It may be from a structural difference in the brain, it may be from genetics, or it may be that it's entirely the product of a culture that treats gobliniods as second class citizens. The data I've seen suggests the latter. It suggests that the poor social skills are a result of a hostile social environment. We can't know until we raise a generation of orcs and trolls in a non-hostile environment and see how they perform.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Aug 8 2007, 09:44 PM

QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)

Did you forget that the top tier megacorp isn't run by a human, but a Dragon?

Being able to recognize an inferior being does not preclude being able to recognize a superior being.

~J

Posted by: Pendaric Aug 8 2007, 10:03 PM

I concur. Most racists are inferior beings.

Posted by: DuckEggBlue Omega Aug 9 2007, 01:33 AM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

clearly their advanced abilities are just a sham.

So when testing shows someone to be inferior to you that's all the proof you need, no need to take into account any other factors aside from race, but when someone is shown to be better than you, it's a sham?

For you the 'information age' was just something that happened to other people, wasn't it?

Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 9 2007, 02:55 AM

Log into the Corporate patent database and search for metagenetics patents. Take a good look at all of them. Have an Agent do it if you don't have time. You'll notice that of the 154,497 metagenetic patents filed in the past 50 years, 92% of them refer back to techniques described in 38 now expired patents filed by an independent Troll geneticist. This single Troll, working on his own in his basement forged the foundation of modern metagenetics. He did things that no Megacorp was able to do before him, despite their trillions of nuyen and thousands of researchers. More importantly, every single modern Megacorp metagenetics program is build on his work. When his patents expired and the Megacorps could freely use them for the first time, the quality and availability of metagenetic testing and alteration increased a ten-fold almost overnight.

The insinuation that goblinoids are idiots is insulting.

Do you want to know why orks and trolls test lower than average in IQ screenings?
I know and I'll tell you. It is the elfs.

Have you ever seen a keebler drink a glass of water? Vodka. That's what they drink, isn't it? Never water? On no account will as keebler ever drink water, and not without good reason. Water. That's what I'm getting at. Water. Water is the source of all life. Seven tenths of this earth's surface is water. Why, you realize that.. seventy percent of you is water. And as metahuman beings, you and I need fresh, pure water to replenish our precious bodily fluids.

You beginning to understand?

Have you never wondered why I drink only distilled water, or rain water, and only pure grain alcohol? Have you ever heard of a thing called fluoridation? Fluoridation of water? Well do you now what it is? Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous elf plot we have ever had to face?

Posted by: Fortune Aug 9 2007, 03:39 AM

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 9 2007, 12:55 PM)

True, but you have to include the fact that he Goblinized from an extremely intelligent human into an exceptional troll who himself admitted to losing some cognitive ability in the change. And he was motivated!

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Aug 9 2007, 12:58 PM

Right, because he wanted to become a human and not the thing he had become.

I am not advocating changed ones being sent off to ghettos. The poor creatures could not survive. Look at the so called elven kingdom to the south of Seattle. Started with loads of hope and liberal money but it has fallen apart. It's economy collapsed long before the matrix failed. In the mountains west of Seattle there are the Cascade Crow indians who are normal people, but the cascade Crow Orks are only able to exist as criminals, unable to support themselves in the regular community.

I also do not agree that in a truly level field that a less talented human would win out every time over a more talented changed one. But the prejudice you cite cuts both ways. Look at Snow Fox. A human who only wanted to enjoy what is said to be the best BBQ in the region but because she was human she was not accepted by the changed ones. They clearly prefer their own company to socialize in and this shows the double standard in the liberal community. A group of humans want to have a gathering and the media insists they must allow changed ones in, but who protests in places like the Big Rhino where it is well know people are abused if they try to just sit down for a meal? non-elves in the Tir are limited to ghetto's by law. the changed ones there make things far harder for normal people to survive than we make it for them.

Posted by: Pendaric Aug 9 2007, 02:48 PM

Let's just bring the collective attention back to Yomi and compare again.
Or perhapes the Calfree protectorate then again compare.

The meta human re-eduction centres? Night of Rage? Redmond Barrens? Hand of Five? Prevailing sentiments in Renton?

I appluad your ability in denial. Long may it continue.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Aug 9 2007, 06:30 PM

I have said that ghetto's do not work and the Emperor in his wisdom ended Yomi. Can the same thing be said of humans living in Salem under the so called benign rule of changed ones?

Posted by: Pendaric Aug 9 2007, 09:26 PM

Violence breeds violence, oppression breeds oppression. Sins of the father etc
What humans suffer in Salem has been paid for by the actions of others.
You do not get to call foul over the same actions taken by other segments of your demographic.

Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 9 2007, 10:27 PM

Salem, like fluoride, is an elf conspiracy.

Do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Pendaric, children's ice cream.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 9 2007, 11:13 PM

DLN, in all the world, ONLY the Tirs have metahuman governments, and in that case it's elves. Elven governments who are more racist, and more proud of their racism. And elves have Never shown any cognitive disabilities. You go on about the metahuman governments of the UCAS and the like. Hardly. These are merely governments that are less racist than yours. having the occasional metahuman hold office does not equal metahuman rule. In fact, the number of metas in office is far lower than the number of meta in the population at large. Metas are under-represented.

Incidentally, I wouldn't bring up so called "failures of state" in your argument. It doesn't reflect well on Japan. This is the second time in 150 years your countries attempts at a pacific empire has failed, and it fails in part due to your inability to incorporate the different. Oh, and did I hear a shadowrunner disparage a group of people for making their living via crime? Back when native americans were second class citizens, they made a living on vice too. Often when an individual or group is denied a path in the light, they must take to the shadows to survive. The cascade orc's separation from their tribe was not entirely voluntary, you know.

Orcs and trolls have, I admit this, cognitive issues, but the data isn't cut and dried. The cause is unknown. The fact that the testing shows the gap lessening with time suggests (suggests) that its s social issue and not a genetic one. The troll we take as an example may have lost some cognitive ability in the change from a human, but is that due to the nature of the troll or the nature of the change? Data suggests at least part of it is the change.

Let me make it personal (I've drifted there a bit over this thread). My grandfather was a mathmatics professor at a major university before his change. After the change he was let go, and was unabel to get another teaching position. His IQ was tested at 155 before the change. After the change, he tested about 115. He was also listless, self-loathing, his confidence shattered, and he never really tried at anything again. My mother was born a human, and expressed at puberty. Her IQ was 152 before her change. When she changed my grandfather had been an orc for 5 years. He decided to home-school her. When she was retested years later her IQ was about 130. I was born an Orc. Before I got my augmentation, my IQ tested at 147. It is now around 170. If you compare the members of my family against the norms of our respective generations, you'll see that though we are consistently 3 standard deviations above the norm, we also follow the general curve of the data. Orcs who initially changed were most effected by the change. Those that were raised by other orcs were less effected mentally, and those that were raised by orcs in a mroe accepting environment where more resources were available do better still. Today the difference between the average orc and the average human in testing is less than one standard deviation, meaning it's effectively moot. For the record, the average human IQ is 103, the average orc score is 97, the average troll's is 92. The elven average is 107, though some of that data is provided by the Tirs and is suspect, it's the best we've got. The average dwarf tests at 102.

In the case of elves, hyzmarca, I can assure you that flouridation of the water does not have the effects you fear. I've seen things that make be beleive that certain groups of elven supremicists have taken conspiratorial action, but it's hardly fair to blame it on all elves. Maybe on a specific elven culture or two, but not on elves in general.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Aug 9 2007, 11:35 PM

QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)

This is the second time in 150 years your countries attempts at a pacific empire has failed, and it fails in part due to your inability to incorporate the different.

Last I checked, it failed almost entirely due to massive natural disasters.

QUOTE

Let me make it personal (I've drifted there a bit over this thread). My grandfather was a mathmatics professor at a major university before his change. After the change he was let go, and was unabel to get another teaching position. His IQ was tested at 155 before the change. After the change, he tested about 115. He was also listless, self-loathing, his confidence shattered, and he never really tried at anything again. My mother was born a human, and expressed at puberty. Her IQ was 152 before her change. When she changed my grandfather had been an orc for 5 years. He decided to home-school her. When she was retested years later her IQ was about 130. I was born an Orc. Before I got my augmentation, my IQ tested at 147. It is now around 170. If you compare the members of my family against the norms of our respective generations, you'll see that though we are consistently 3 standard deviations above the norm, we also follow the general curve of the data.

You decline to note, I see, that renormalization resulted in dramatic increases in reported IQ scores. Average score for a human is now well above 100 since normalization took into account Orks and Trollsâ€”almost half a standard deviation higher. Adding 21% of a population well below the previous average will do that to a normalized scale.

~J

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 9 2007, 11:53 PM

The standard deviation is 15. So humans score 1/5th higher than the total normalization. Orcs score a similar amount lower, making the difference around 7 IQ points, a little less than half a standard deviation. A difference that small means almost nothing in practical terms.

I didn't mention the test was normalized because that's part of the definition of an IQ test. Should I explain standard deviations as well?

The Japanese empire suffered from natural disasters, but if it were better at incorporating differences, their "client states" would have been more willing to assist Japan rather than take the opportunity to revolt. The empire fell apart because, given the opportunity, the people it treated as second class citizens choose to rebel. Thus is the fate of all cultures that treat some as second class citizens.

Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 10 2007, 01:20 AM

QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)

In the case of elves, hyzmarca, I can assure you that flouridation of the water does not have the effects you fear. I've seen things that make be beleive that certain groups of elven supremicists have taken conspiratorial action, but it's hardly fair to blame it on all elves. Maybe on a specific elven culture or two, but not on elves in general.

You know when fluoridation first began? Nineteen hundred and forty-six. Nineteen forty-six, PlatonicPimp. How does that coincide with your post-war Keebler conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Keebler works.

Do you recall what Clemenceau once said about war? He said war was too important to be left to the generals. When he said that, 150 years ago, he might have been right. But today, war is too important to be left to politicians. They have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow Elf infiltration, Elf indoctrination, Elf subversion and the international Elf conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Posted by: Fortune Aug 10 2007, 01:30 AM

Elf fixation!

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Aug 10 2007, 02:07 AM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Elf infiltration, Elf indoctrination, Elf subversion and the international Elf conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Oooh, this ought to be fun.

Aside from the flouride treatments (which were started many decades before any elf sightings), what foul deviousness is there that envelopes all who were born with soft skin and pointy ears?
Also, how would such a conspiracy organize? Sure, it's easy to spot fellow conspirators, once you know that everyone is joined up and agreeable, but how do you get the initial contact list for such an arrangement?

And just as a side note, why do I never hear about dwarven conspiracies? Is it just that no one looks down to notice the conspirings or are they innocent?

Posted by: DuckEggBlue Omega Aug 10 2007, 02:10 AM

I don't think any of that matters. I'm told he first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love.

Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 10 2007, 02:42 AM

Yes, a uh, a profound sense of fatigue... a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I... I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence.
I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Vampires uh... vampires sense my power and they seek the life essence. I, uh... I do not avoid vampires, Mandrake. But I... I do deny them my essence.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Aug 10 2007, 01:28 PM

Platonic, you continue to make my point for me. When your grandfather changed, not only did his intelligence drop but he became listless you said. I know family histories tend to color facts, but I would think he was dismissed because of his attitude, not his teeth.

Japan has not been trying to create a Pan Asian Empire. They have only been ensuring their own position and protecting its own people.

To got back to the mid 20th century we can clearly see what happened to people who rejected the Greater East Asian Co-prosperity Sphere. We were at first applauded for being Asians who stood up to western colonization, but they immediately wanted to be given the same lifestyle we enjoyed, as a gift, without working for it and they objected when Japan needed to take the time to build up her own infrastructure to do this. Why would we want to recreate this for a people who do not appreciate us? The presence of Imperial Troops and operatives in the Philippines was not colonialism but just the protection of Japanese property following the failure of the Philippine government to keep order. I, for one, will be very happy to never set foot in Manilla again.

Look what happened to the Asian peoples after the war. Japan became the dominant economy in the world because her people understood hard work and had an honestly elected government that accepted responsibility for its failures and worked towards success. Korea, and Indochina sliced themselves up in civil wars. Burma and the Philippines slide down to become impoverished beggar nations. China became a repressive dictatorship. Then when it tried to become a modern market, collapsed into the mess it is today. But Japan, a homogenous culture and people have consistently risen about all that.

When people started changing this was naturally seen as a shock and fearful. Japan kept a closer relationship with its mythology than any other industrialized power so it was far more of a shock to see Oni and Kami appearing in Tokyo than for goblins to appear in Berlin. But recognizing that these were once people who had changed, we took steps to isolate them for their protection as much as for that of the population of Japan. Maybe the USA would have avoided the terrible night of rage had you taken the same steps.

Lastly to go back to Salem. You show my point yet again. Japan has recognized that actual ghettos are now an evil and we closed Yomi. The elves controlling Salem have not recognized this and the very existence of the ghetto in the first place shows elves are no more advanced than other changed ones. They are just aping what humans did, not showing any sort of advanced thoughts, but monkey see, monkey do.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 10 2007, 05:22 PM

My grandfather was let go the day he got out of the hospital. The change in his attitude happend after he was fired.

Metas ape humans? They ARE humans. The only reason you can say that humans tried it first is because humans were here first.

Where the current japanese culture succeed is in their focus on hard work and economic success. Where the current japanese culture fails is in the social aspect. Are you aware that Japan has the highest suicide rate in the sixth world?

DLN, the facts you produce are frequently correct, but the picture you paint is limited. You find facts that support your preconceived notions (japan is best, metas aren't as good as normal humans), twist them when they don't fit, or ignore them. Hardly scientific. I don't make your arguments for you. I show the data I have. Sometimes you can take that data to support your claims, but I don't agree with the conclusions you draw, and their are other conclusions that fit the data just as well.

Instead of criticizing a race, you should criticize a culture. I have nothing agianst Japanese people, but the current Japanese culture has traits I abhor. It's nothing inherent to being japanese. Japanese people in different cultures don't share these attitudes. Some japanese within the culture aviod having these attitudes. Similarly, The elven societies of the Tirs are terrible, but not all elves are elven supremicists. The modern Orxploitation movement is a tremendous misstep, because it encourages young orcs to live up to the stereotype of greedy, shortsighted thugs. That culture is not intrinsic to being an orc.

Posted by: Pendaric Aug 10 2007, 05:51 PM

Eunabo djoto, cerri.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Aug 10 2007, 06:17 PM

You miss the vital point that the Japanese people and the Japanese culture are the same thing. That is the strength of Japan. The people are one race, undiluted for centuries. The culture is one culture that has grown with the people. I know the Americans pride themselves on their "melting pot" but look how long that lasted. Less than 300 years before the indians rose up and fell back into tribal patterns, and the melting pot could not resist them.

I have not said "Japan is the best." I am arguing facts and avoiding the subjective terms. However it can be seen that the unified japanese culture has produced many long lasting benefits that other peoples envy and seek to emulate. Don't think so? wanna bet 10 on it?

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 10 2007, 11:03 PM

Sure. The only condition I have on it is you have to leave out every instance of Japan copying another culture, and only use things Japan developed by themselves as examples.

So basically western economic practices, such as corporations are out. Western Law is out. Anythign based on western science is out. Oh, wait, I seem to recall that Japanese politics, literature, and philosophy all borrow heavily from Imperial China. Hell, your "native" system of writing is so close that japanese and chinese people can write letters to each other, despite not speaking the same language. Oh, and Bhuddism is right out, so anything based on bhuddist principles.....

There is nothing special about japanese values that guarentee their success. Everyone gets their time in the spotlight. The US had it's time. Britain before it, France before that, Spain before that, Italy before that. China's time has come and gone, and may be coming around again.

The Japanese race is not the Japanese culture. For one, Japan has had more than one culture. The Post-WW2 Japanese culture is recognizeably different that that which came before. Second, the Japanese are not ethnically homogenous. The natives of HokkaidÅ? and Okinawa are different ethnicities than other japanese, for instance. Thirdly and lastly, There are many, many people who are ethnically Japanese (as much as that means anything, see point 2) who are not japanese culturally. My wife is a second-generation Japanese-american. Both her parents were Japanese-america, and all her grandparents were Japanese. Her culture, however, is that of san-francisco, and she is hardly the only one.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Aug 11 2007, 02:53 AM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

That is the strength of Japan. The people are one race, undiluted for centuries. The culture is one culture that has grown with the people.

And yet rather than say, 'one race with new faces,' they embark on an internal war.

QUOTE

I know the Americans pride themselves on their "melting pot" but look how long that lasted. Less than 300 years before the indians rose up and fell back into tribal patterns, and the melting pot could not resist them.

Not really, 'melting pot' hadn't been the philosophy of the pre-shatter USA since the rise of the Commercial Age. It had changed to a 'divide, market, and sell' philosophy that quickly grew from its original place in corporations and was displayed in every field that could possibly have competition. The big irony is that often the competitions were staged to give the illusion of choice, while always having the same final result.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Aug 11 2007, 03:11 PM

DLN is Shinto, not buddist. and as much as I hate to agree with her on any of this, she has a valid point about the Tir's isolation policy. I think we can all agree that ghettos are bad. Yomi was an abomination just as the night of rage was. So having seen all that evil, why do the elves, claiming to be an enlightened people, reproduce the worst social injustice of the 21st century?

Stop dredging up the past gang. We all come from peoples who abused other peoples. If we didn't, we wouldn't be here and I'm stil llooknig for the Catholic church, as a survvinig element of the Roman government to pay my family back for Alesia. Keep it current day before we start discussing slaughtering Ainu and Wounded Knee.

Posted by: Pendaric Aug 12 2007, 10:45 PM

Despite the obvious need to revisit history in aspected view point of racism. Let us instead focus on the fact that all of metahumanity, when viewed in the majority, are tribal primitives with the perchant for violence.
Equally proficient at the moral laxity and double standards despite metatype, sex or sexual preference.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Aug 13 2007, 02:29 PM

you look at the surface of japanese culture and don't understand it. the dedication and self sacrifice that made Japan a power in the 1930's was then used to rebuild her after the barbaric use of atomic weapons on Japan. this dedication made Japan an economic power in place of a military one. It is the only non-white power that did not have its indigenous faith pushed into a secondary role by westerners. Shinto shrines are as active now as they were in the 19th century. And I am afraid you are mistaken about the written languages. While two scholars both writing in kanji can communicate beyond barriers, the Hiranga alphabet is strictly Japanese.

And this thread is about the changed ones being exploited or given a way of expression. you talk about how young orks are being pressed into a stereotype, but where did that come form? How many young dwarves are given gifts of tools by their own families to encourage that stereotype? Orks are shown 'tough' orks and trolls and the military or security or athletics as fields where they can earn their way successfully, because they are not going to be believable as a corporate suit. And if you look at models, reference 'racer queens.' You will fine no ork or troll women in skin tight outfits draped on cars. the idea of a troll in an add for VS or Fredericks or Freudian slips negligee just isn't happening.

Posted by: Pendaric Aug 13 2007, 03:43 PM

Sorry DLN you appear to have fallen into ranting, please make a coherent point so we may derail it for you.

Also you obviously don't watch yamatetsu metamatrix which does have metahuman women in their ad's. I believe that was some how important to your spittle laden tirade.
By the way you will ultimately fail if you argue with the bottom line of commerce.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Aug 14 2007, 12:45 PM

Taps the poor changed one on the head sympathetically.

I was not ranting I was stating facts. what you seem to miss, and is typical of the changed ones as they lose an argument, that they accuse the humans of being racist and going off in rants. I assume you I am quite calm and if you want to look at the economic bottom line, then clearly the superiority of Japan, with an unmixed, human population rised like cream rto the top. By comparrison the so called elven nations in North America, Ireland, and Africa are sinking.

And while one corp may have relocated to Siberia, notice they keep the Japanese name and have some ads particularly for changed people, they are not in mainstream media, but rather in publications aimed at those particular groups.
Hense they recognize, even with a changed one friendly attitude, that changed ones should not and cannot mix easily with normal people.

Promise, I'm not ranting. very calm.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Aug 14 2007, 01:19 PM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

Promise, I'm not ranting. very calm.

Ranting implies raving, but does not neccessitate it.

However, the decrease in your grammatical performance in your last two replies indicates that you spent significantly less time thinking through your response and no time re-reading it to confirm that it conveyed what you wanted to convey.

Ergo, you have begun ranting. That does not make your points inherently invalid, but will be used against you and confirms that your argument is getting less prepared and more emotional and reactionary.

Posted by: Mr. Croup Aug 14 2007, 03:31 PM

Mr. P? A changed one?

My word, i find the very idea of Pendaric as a "changed one" somewhat amusing.

DLN, may i be first to point out that cream is not the only thing to rise to the top, i suggest you are more careful with your metaphors in future.

If you would allow me to join the delicate expostulations of this particular thread, i would first like to point out the terribly circular rumpus that appears to be going on, indeed a veritable game of swings and roundabouts as the saying goes.

My dear ladies and gentlemen of the board, it is very likely no good in arguing away with our good companion DLN. I will not say that she is right, as i firmly believe her (i assume you are a madame, if not, please accept my most humble apologies. If so, then at least forgive the assumption, it can be so hard to tell in this electronic world in which we commune) to be wrong in a great deal of areas. No, it lies unfortunately in the apparent method in which she has assembled her facts in such a way as to make an unpenetrable veneer on her world view in much the same way the Japanese of old would lacquer their armour.

Her unswayed belief in the superiority of her culture and beliefs is certainly admirable in some instances but sadly misguided in many others. Statement of facts derived from lessons left unlearned over the years by her culture is a sad testament to a country that had so much to offer the world in the previous century and has now regressed back to a much older and less refined form of xenophobia.

It amuses me a great deal that a people originally formed from the mixing of at least two ethnicities have become scared of a mixing of species. After all, has not mother nature herself proved on many occassions that a hybrid takes the best of both species from which it comes, increasing it's chances of survival in the harsh world in which we live? Also, has nature not shown that those that cannot adapt to a new environment will perish?

To realise the truth of anything in this world you simply must know only two simple rules:

1) Life thrives on Conflict, to strive is the very essence of life
2) All things end

DLN, the Japanese as a culture and a country has risen and fallen many times over history, the British Empire eventually buckled and bent under it's own weight before being carved up and parcelled out to it's members, the United States fractured and ceased to be and one day Japan will follow the same course.

Every dog has it's day, my dear, and then it dies. It's simply the order of things.

Whilst you may sing out how Japan is so superior because of it's actions, in truth it is merely just a question of timing. Japan has risen whilst other's are on the decline. It is a simple contrast that shows only how far above everyone else you have become and not how close to heaven, as it were, you have gotten.

Metahumanity is not old but without doubt, it's star is on the rise and who is to say what lofty peaks it may reach? It is a the trickle of water wearing away the rock and my advice to you is not to be the rock.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all things should be equal. What would be the point? It would be a situation of too many Daimyo's and not enough Samurai if that were the case. But everyone, regardless of being a single soul or a species as a whole, if they want it enough and work at it enough will get what they are looking for. Maybe not today and maybe it will be on the backs of those that came before them when it does. But the hardships it faces is what makes a species strong and racism in any form is just another hurdle along that path.

Terribly sorry, i do seem to have gotten into my rut and blathered on far too long. I shall enjoy this discussion further at a later point, for now i am late for an appointment.

Ta Ta

~C

Posted by: Fortune Aug 14 2007, 03:34 PM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

And while one corp may have relocated to Siberia, notice they keep the Japanese name ...

They did? Evo != Yamatetesu

Posted by: Kagetenshi Aug 14 2007, 04:19 PM

They did. Evo isn't even a listed corporation in the Corporate Court Directory.

~J

Posted by: Pendaric Aug 14 2007, 04:21 PM

I must concur Mr Coup that the expostulation that I am a meta human, when I have stated my metatype in this very thread, is a matter of mirth and symptomatic of the derangement of perspective derived from racism.
Simply because I take a position contrary to DLN she adopts a superiority not derived from pre-knowledge of my abilities but on assumption of my metatype.
Clearly lacking the politeness and displaying the smug attitude I so recently detailed in my preamble.
The lack of flexibility endemic of racists places them beyond doubt as a lesser life form.
Inferior in the polarity of their fixation.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Aug 14 2007, 08:16 PM

The brevity of my earlier answers is more from a fact there was little need for more words than a lack of control or you envision me spluttering in rage. Unlike you, who seems to seek to put up a vast volume of words to over whelm resistance, I need only a few words to make my point clear.

Mr Croup, my point is that while other empires, you point to the British and american empires, rise then fall. Japan has risen and fallen and risen again, like the tide and just as irresistible.

The ugly word racist raises an interesting point. We drift back to the idea that is there a difference between human and changed ones? Is a person who acknowledges a difference a racist or a realist? Is the person who says there is no difference kindly and open minded? or Looking at the world through rose colored glasses?

There are significant differences between humans and changed ones. They have noted failures in intellect but superior physical ability. I am just being honest and acknowledging these facts. I do not blame the changed ones for their condition any more than I would blame someone for being left handed or the victim of a fire for their scars. They are to be pitied for the hand that fate dealt them.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 14 2007, 08:57 PM

Except that we dismiss your pity. Keep your damn pity. We're fine, thanks, and the biggest hurdle we face because of our condition is the attitudes of people like you. No cognitive impairment, no limited lifespan, none of the differences you love to point out (and that I won't disagree they are there) are anywhere near the impediment we face in culturally-entrenched prejudice. For every orc who can't do the job because they aren't capable, there are a dozen more who are fully capable and yet discriminated against.

You mention ads don't feature orcs unless they are targeted to orcs. So what? The default add is targeted towards humans, so it features humans. Or maybe elves, they're close enough in general build that the same things appeal. What we must get used to is that humans aren't the default. They are just another metatype. Try looking at it that way, for just a second, DLN. Just try for me. I don't attitudes to change much, but if you see that humans aren't special in any way, they are just one of many different forms that sentient life takes, I think it'll put some things in perspective. You're a meta, DLN. Your metatype is human.

Besides, when was the last time you saw an add that wasn't targeted based on your personal data? Even the Trid plays different commercials for different people. It's part of why those things have standardized lengths.

(PS, since this is an SR3 forum, I assume EVO doesn't exist yet).

Posted by: Fortune Aug 14 2007, 09:42 PM

QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)

... since this is an SR3 forum, I assume EVO doesn't exist yet ...

I hate the separate Forums!

Posted by: Pendaric Aug 14 2007, 10:41 PM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Aug 14 2007, 03:16 PM)

Strange that in every post I used considerably less words than you?
My dear girl, my verbose affectations are chosen for my love of the English language, it has more words of prose than any other.
Mr Coup is similarly inflicted and seems to have, like so many, lost you on the simplist point. Due to, in no small measure, your lack of flexibility. However I will allow him to elucidate your misconceptions in his own time.

Coincidentally Mr Coup hows the weather?

But I digress.
Racist is an individual that see's the difference inherent in another and presumes this make them an inferior.
A realist is some one who see the difference in another and adapts. Not judges, adapts. We will see if repetition penatrates the primitive sophism.

Evolution has demonstrated that flexibility is the most important trait in survival. Racists are inflexible and will die.
Realists deal with the little practicalities and survive. I have seen this first hand many times.

Posted by: Mr. Croup Aug 15 2007, 09:15 AM

DLN, i'm afraid you've missed the very thrust of my argument, or at least misconstrued a point i've mentioned previously.

Whilst i do not deny your point on the rise and fall of Japan, it is interesting to note that you fail to point out that Japan has only risen and fallen within the microcosm of it's own islands and a few surrounding countries. Britain suffered similarly themselves before founding the Empire, the United States tried the same and inevitably paid the price for their impetuousness. Japan, now, is struggling to keep hold of what it has thrust it's sticky mit out to claim within this century. Whilst i don't deny it's economical capability or the fecundity of it's people, you will see, if one looks carefully, that the cracks are starting to show. Though the US has passed into history, both Britain and Japan have shared a similar history of rise and fall upon their own shores and whilst you may deride the US and Britain now, the UCAS is proof that last vestiges of the old US struggle on and fair Britannia will once again have her day once her own internal problems straighten themselves out. As an aside, i only use the US and Britain as two prominent and contemporary examples of my case in point, i'm sure if you look the world over you will find countless examples of the rise and fall of many cultures. As Mr. P. so astutely remarked, the ones that survive are the ones that adapt.

Now to address your point on racism, let us advert ourselves to the dictionary definition of the word:

QUOTE

racismÂ n.Â
1.Â The belief that race accounts for differences in metahuman character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2.Â Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

If you would kindly look to the words you have previously scribed in this thread, you will note that many of your posts would lump you in with the racist crowd. If you truly believe otherwise then i would suggest that you think more on your wording before you post, after all, brevity is not the same as being concise.

To truly test your surmisation that the "changed ones" are as different as you say, with modern technology you could take a wide selection of "changed ones" and make them look human. Could you then tell the difference from them and an equally wide selection of humans based purely on ability?

No. Simply put, without checking genetics or use of other, more invasive testing, socially there would be not much difference except the ones brought on through the impact of their environment.

Humans are a wide and varied group and so are the other metatypes, both are comprised of everyone from the rude and the crude to the polite and well mannered, from the ignorant and the stupid to the enlightened and the intelligent..
the list goes on.

Simply put you are all the same on the inside (of that i can assure you.) with the same basic capabilities for emotion and achievement, other than that, we are all different, regardless of race or lineage. That simply cannot be disputed.

Is this a perception through rose tinted glasses? Is this the mad utterances of an open mind?

No. In this modern age those that cannot see things for what they truly are, those that cannot step back and view things objectively without preconceptions created by either emotion, culture or history are living a lie, a fantasy played out in their own heads more addictive and insidious than any BTL.

Would you not agree?

Ta Ta

~C

PS. Mr. P, the weather is completely cats and dogs at the moment and, i suspect, for the foreseeable future. Luckily the polution index is not as high as it has been of late making it much less taxing on my umbrella. How are you finding the weather?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Aug 15 2007, 11:36 AM

QUOTE (Mr. Croup)

To truly test your surmisation that the "changed ones" are as different as you say, with modern technology you could take a wide selection of "changed ones" and make them look human. Could you then tell the difference from them and an equally wide selection of humans based purely on ability?

No. Simply put, without checking genetics or use of other, more invasive testing, socially there would be not much difference except the ones brought on through the impact of their environment.

Reality check time!

The average Troll is not capable of identifying an object presented briefly and then hidden. The average human can do it with ease. The average Troll is not capable of identifying the source of a noise. The average human can do it with ease. This holds for the other senses. Without detailed investigation, the average Troll has no real information about the world around him or her, and in about 16% of tests, is unaware that a stimulus was presented in the first place. This does not hold true for humans.

The average Ork can reliably identify the existence of a stimulus such as those mentioned above, but can only correctly guess at the nature of the stimulus about 70% of the time. The average human can perform the same task with over 90% reliability. The average Ork will be incapable of guessing at the exact nature of the presented stimulus (the margin of error exceeds the percent of successful identifications)â€”an average human can do it over 50% of the time.

I'll have to dig up the full-population studies, but these are facts, that have been confirmed repeatedly by controlled and peer-reviewed experimentation. Saying "you can't tell the difference!" doesn't make it true.

~J

Posted by: Mr. Croup Aug 15 2007, 12:11 PM

Ah, i see your confusion. Whilst you may state quantitive fact (i use the word tentatively, citing your sources would be useful if credibility is to be ascertained), i was dealing with an entirely qualitative situation where quantitive information would only be useful as a guide at best.

If presented with a troll (or orc), as per your example, (either thaumaturgically or technologically altered to look human) and you had no idea he was a troll (or orc), would you be able to tell that they were, in fact, a troll (or orc) whilst dealing with them?

No, you would just assume that it was a human that was particularly slow on the up-take. That was my point which you thoroughly failed to grasp.

As for your test results, how do they compare the "average" troll or orc's state of living to the "average" humans? It's well documented that diet and environment make significant impacts on the cognitive abilities of a developing child. Similarly how do the results for the tests stated, by you, come out for Elves and Dwarves? I was originally referring to all metatypes when referring to "changed ones" as DLN so delicately puts it. How do the results come out for Night Ones? Fomori? Goblins? Gnomes? or any other metavariant?

Odd that you only state "facts" that support your argument and leave out anything else that might discredit it. However, if you wish to present further "Facts" feel free, i would only be too happy to review them and discuss with you further. Until then may i say that only having one number on the national lottery does not make you a jackpot winner, if you get my meaning.

If you wish for me to check my reality, please ensure that both of us first share the same one.

Ta Ta

~C

Posted by: DuckEggBlue Omega Aug 15 2007, 12:39 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

The average Troll is not capable of identifying an object presented briefly and then hidden.

Is that including the -4TN for "action very obvious"?

The game mechanics are abstract, and turning Perception Test mechanics into "real world" data REALLY doesn't work.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Aug 15 2007, 12:45 PM

[ Spoiler ]

Posted by: TheOneRonin Aug 15 2007, 04:59 PM

QUOTE (Snow_Fox)

If we didn't, we wouldn't be here and I'm still looking for the Catholic church, as a survvinig element of the Roman government to pay my family back for Alesia. Keep it current day before we start discussing slaughtering Ainu and Wounded Knee.

Why blame Italians for ancestors you lost at the battle of Alesia? Vercingetorix was as much to blame for what happened as Caesar. More, in fact, by my take. After all, if I kicked my wife and kids out of my house and let them starve to death in hopes that there'd be enough food for me to ride out the a SWAT siege, I think I'd be more responsible for their deaths than Lone Star.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Aug 15 2007, 06:35 PM

Your defense of the changed ones, and your assumption of my racist beliefs is based on a false premise, that is that the changed ones are normal people. They are not. Your own family history shows this. The first ones changed and suffered terribly. Like survivors of nuclear attacks they were twisted and tortured by events beyond their control. They then proceeded to pass on their damaged DNA to further generations that were spared the trauma of the initial change but are still carrying the flawed DNA.

This set of circumstances created a group of flawed beings who are trying their best to make their way in a harsh world. You are making a brave attempt and getting by but to claim that you are the same as humans just fails to recognize the the truth of the matter. As for the suggestion that you can alter changed ones to pass as humans, I would say that plastic surgery can repair the damage to victims of nuclear attack so they appear normal but this does not undo the fact their DNA is changed and they will pass their defects on to their children.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Aug 15 2007, 06:50 PM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

Your defense of the changed ones, and your assumption of my racist beliefs is based on a false premise, that is that the changed ones are normal people. They are not.

This is an interesting point. When trying to convince someone like DLN, you can't try to argue that non-human metas are "human" since she's already taken it as axiomatic that they are not.
A better way might be to accept for the moment the premise that non-human metas are not human, at all, in any way, and then from there formulate an argument for why they deserve to be treated fairly and in the same way as sapiens sapiens anyway.
In other words, you might be better off making an argument for the equal treatment/opportunity of all sapients, from which the equality of metas follows, rather than going back and forth on the "are metas human?" issue.
Maybe.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Aug 15 2007, 07:12 PM

They are treated fairly. I have merely argued that they are different and these differences have to be recognized. People who want to sit around signing kum-by-ah and pretending we are all the same are failing to recognize the truth of the modern world. this is not a matter of skin color or the shape of eyes but very definite changes in DNA. And before anyone starts laying out the genome I will point out how similar the DNA of people and chimpanzees are. But no one would claim that a chimp should be working as a CEO of a corp, And that's Sam Villiers' opinion not withstanding.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Aug 15 2007, 07:29 PM

Actually, there are no changes in the DNA itself, just in which parts of it are active. This results in different RNA creation at different times, but the DNA is unchanged from what it was before. If you wish to claim they are a different species, you will need to also reject their entire ancestries as imposters hiding behind human form.

No matter what study you look at, 0% is a lot different than 1.5% or 6%, so your whole issue with chimpanzees is a pathetic smokescreen.

Posted by: TheOneRonin Aug 15 2007, 07:29 PM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

Indeed, people are different. I'm human, like you, but because of my Scandinavian heritage, I'm likely much taller and much stronger than you. It's not your fault you are from East Asian stock. You are shorter and smaller, and less physically capable. You should be pitied. I know I feel sorry for you.

Posted by: Adarael Aug 15 2007, 09:44 PM

I believe the One Ronin has refuted you with a call to absurdity. Well done.

I'm not a biotechnician or a cyberdoc or any of those things, and I'm neither trained nor interested in debating the finer points of what constitutes human in a philosophical sense. But I can tell you this much: a large Japanese company has paid me to work for them all my adult life, and has rewarded me for both loyalty and the quality of work I do for them. I am well taken care of specifically because at a young age, I performed above and beyond those around me. I distinguished myself by purity of action and purity of spirit. Because I wanted to be somebody when I grew up, I pushed myself and did everything I could to learn more, be stronger, strike harder, outhink everyone in my way and be in the front of the line when my company was looking at prospective employees.

Treatment should follow ability and action, not potential. The average clock-puncher downtown has no drive to better himself, has no drive to dedicate himself to an idea, and has no drive reach his potential. Do we reward the clock-puncher for what he's done, or what he might be able to do if he applies himself? We do not pay smart people to slack off, nor do we value inaction in the face of possibility. We value only what one does.

I can do my job longer, harder, with greater accuracy than most of my human counterparts. I can pull more than my 'fair share' of gear in the field. I am faster to recognize threats and eliminate them because I have trained myelf to be so. I'll respect any human that can do the same or more than me, because he's made something of himself. But my 'tainted' genes of of higher value than most of the 'pure' ones in my unit, specifically because I have proven to my superiors that I am very good at my job. Sure, I'm not a scientist. But neither was Oe Kenzaburo, Kawabata Yasunari, or Mishima Yukio. The ability to crunch numbers does not preclude an individual from being equally or more valuable than any other counterpart.

I don't need your pity, and I don't need your protection. You need mine.

<<<Blue Line>>>

Posted by: Pendaric Aug 15 2007, 11:03 PM

Brava!

Posted by: Snow_Fox Aug 16 2007, 02:47 AM

Ironically, having worked with DLN several times, I can say she has no problems working with metas, no I'm human, and more than once has put her own hoop on the line to cover chummers who happen to be orks or dwarves.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 16 2007, 04:24 AM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

But no one would claim that a chimp should be working as a CEO of a corp,

Oh, I don't know, That depends on the chimp. If the chimp proved itself capable, by say moving up the corporate ladder, I'd be OK with it. This is a rather interesting coincidence because my current work happens to be with chimps modified with cerebral boosters and encephalons. I can't share our results before we publish, obviously, but lets just say that you may have communicated with some of our subjects via the matrix and not known it.

DLN, it seems you and I are destined to beleive opposite things. You've stated that before that "segregation doesn't work," and that changed ones should be put to the roles they best fit. It's that kind of attitude that leads to a permanent underclass based on metatype. The truth is, humans aren't the only ones more comfortable with their own kind. What was so dispicable about Yomi was not that Metahumans were separate, but that relocation was not volintary, and living conditions were horrible, and the colony was not self-sufficient. What is so terrible about the Tirs is not that they are elven nations, but that they are facist nations. On the other end of this, I would give the example of the orc underground, the dwarven and troll nations of deutchland, and several metahuman-specific tribes in tribal lands around the world. Metas who live surrounded by others of their metatype are happier. Their specific needs are met better. Now, an orc community will have the similar economic and social need to a human community (perhaps a few more dentists), and those needs will have to be filled within the community. This is why it's so vital to have orc scientists, orc CEOs, orc everything. It's so orcs can do for themselves. This is especially true for dwarves and trolls, who have great difficulty in a world built for different sized people. If they were in their own communities, there would be less issues. The key is self-segregation and self-sufficiency.

Finally, Someone suggested ceding DLN the issue, at least for this argument, that metahumans aren't human. There's two concept wrapped up in here. I will fully cede that fact that metahumans aren't Human, in the sense that human is a subtype of Homo sapiens, and other metatypes are different. It's equivalent to saying an orcc is not a dwarf. It's accurate.

Hoewever, DLN also states that metahumans aren't People. This I will fight, till the end of my days. The suggestion was that we convince DLN that metas are worthy of resppect despite not being human. But in the sense that human and person are synonymous (a holdover from a time when the only people were human), we can't do that. Being a person is defined by that respect. You can't say a someone is both not a person and worthy of respect. Denying someones personhood is the epitome of disrespect.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Aug 17 2007, 03:40 PM

I think you are right in saying we will not agree on some issues. I hope you will believe that I do hope you and your kind do find happiness in this world.

Posted by: Pendaric Aug 17 2007, 04:59 PM

And so there is an accord. Not a resolution but a uneasy cease fire, shall we say.

Incidently, Mr Croup the weather is some what petulant, closer to a English April despite the longitude.

I also have a mind to commission your good self and your partner with a little incidental activity. Majoring in your bespoke specialization. You know how I like to discharge things personally but tomorrow evening I find my self engaged. I will of course include the particulars in private transmission. Travel will be required.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 17 2007, 09:44 PM

I'll accept your well wishes, DLN, but I'm still holding for the admission that I am a person. It's not about happiness ("I demand the right to be unhappy"), it's about respect.

Posted by: Fire Hawk Aug 17 2007, 11:18 PM

Never before have I heard such disgusting, short-sighted humanist drivel.

The Humanis Policlub, and anyone who support them, are no better (and no less frightening) than the Universal Brotherhood.

[Nice IC dialogue we've got here.]

Posted by: Mr. Croup Aug 20 2007, 02:31 PM

QUOTE (Pendaric)

I also have a mind to commission your good self and your partner with a little incidental activity. Majoring in your bespoke specialization. You know how I like to discharge things personally but tomorrow evening I find my self engaged. I will of course include the particulars in private transmission. Travel will be required.

Pendaric, dearest of all my friends, I must apologise whole heartedly for the tardiness of my reply, it seems that myself and my esteemed colleague were already away on business when you last posted. We have literally just finished wiping down the surfaces and putting the last fine fettle to our professional equipment, but we'd be delighted to accept your commission if the offer is still open. My only wish is that this one has a little more stamina, the last commission you asked of us was woefully and dissapointingly short lived despite being such a large "job" as it were. My esteemed colleague was quite beside himself at the end.

I also trust that the usual arrangements will be observed? We both know that my esteemed colleague has certain needs that have to be catered for to ensure optimal performance...

Ah, anyway, i'm sure you'll be in touch and i have said quite enough about this on open channels. You will have to forgive this little indiscretion, you know how excited i can get before a commission.

As to the "uneasy ceasefire" that has occured, it is a shame that today amongst such intellectual beings that we could not come to a resolution to this discussion. However, i'm sure in good time that one will be forthcoming and for some, I suspect, sooner than they think.

In the meantime I spy something beginning with D..

Ta Ta

~C

Posted by: Snow_Fox Aug 26 2007, 03:55 PM

I think it's the best resolution you can hope for. DLN is a professional and has no trouble working with metas but she's pretty well set in her ways with regard to the world view. I'm sure she's thinking you guys are the intractable noes not recognizing the truth-as she sees it.

Japan just doesn't change until things are rammed down their throats. then they embrace it. fate hasn't forced the metas yet. Assuming DLN is typical of Japanese conservative thought, she revers in the emperor and if he leads them...

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Aug 28 2007, 06:40 PM

QUOTE (Snow_Fox)

Assuming DLN is typical of Japanese conservative thought,

Conservative? I am a member of the Liberal Democratic Party!

Posted by: Beelzebot Aug 29 2007, 12:21 PM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Aug 26 2007, 10:55 AM)

Assuming DLN is typical of Japanese conservative thought,

Conservative? I am a member of the Liberal Democratic Party!

Which isn't and never was either democratic or liberal

Posted by: Mr. Croup Aug 29 2007, 04:00 PM

Most governments rarely are. Cast your eyes upon my own fair Isle for a sterling example of hypocrisy in action. If i could, i'm sure i would shed a tear for how far it has fallen and learnt so little. Eventually wiser heads will surely prevail once the less wiser ones are seen off. Of that i'm quite sure.

Posted by: Fortune Aug 30 2007, 07:10 AM

QUOTE (Mr. Croup)

Eventually wiser heads will surely prevail once the less wiser ones are seen off. Of that i'm quite sure.

Yeah, nobody's ever thought that way before.

Posted by: Mr. Croup Aug 30 2007, 07:20 AM

Why, whatever do you mean?

Posted by: Pendaric Aug 30 2007, 12:10 PM

In our line of business my esteemed Mr Croup, even in Cromwellian methods there will always be ample opportunity for enlightened distraction and advancement.
As always I strive for a politer world. A more civil, if not civilized world.
Consequently your intention for further employment by suggestion is wasted in this clientele.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Aug 30 2007, 06:10 PM

The Liberal Democratic party rebuilt the Japanese economy after WW2 and provided a constant guiding hand leading to today's dominance of the global economy.
There are other parties in Japan that briefly gained control of the government but the people regularly come back to the LDP. I know most non-japanese are use to politcal arguments being fought between different parties, but in Japan the real fighting is between different factinos within the LDP.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Sep 2 2007, 04:19 PM

While I'm tmepted to indulgently pat her on the head she does have a good ponit in that the way the Japanese aprliament functions is really different than most other democracy's approach. That having been said there are real potial for runs here within factions of the LDP. I've found these guys can resign on just a public scandal. of course until it becomes public, they'll move heavan and earth to stop you from going public.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Sep 6 2007, 01:22 PM

To give back up to SF, after I kick her in the shin,

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20070906a4.html

is from the current news in Japan how recent problems might force an election. 2 ministers have stepped down because of problems only a week after being appointed.

In the west we would be wondering how corrupt the agriculture ministry is. They have gone through 3 ministers this year. 2 resigned and one hanged himself, but in Japan they go for the minister as the trouble. The ministry itself is not blamed.