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Posted by: Trax Jul 22 2007, 01:28 AM

So, with Augmentation finally coming out (hopefully) next week, Arsenal won't be long after that (/me prays Oh please, oh please oh please!).

Personally, I can't wait to see all the old weapons/vehicles back from the SR3 Cannon Companions, or their new SR4 versions.

One thing I really do hope that comes out and something I've been looking forward to ever since looking at multiple SR3 artwork, is a flying car. I was disappointed when there were no such vehicle in any of the books. Maybe with a little rule bending with the Rigger 3 book one could be made, but being the owner of the SR world's only flying car is as obvious as being the owner of a Mobile suit.

Another item I'd like to see are human-like drones, sorta like Avatars, or The Terminator. They look (meta)human, they act like it too, or at least like they've got a little cyber. But are all metal. Perfect for all those Parapalegic Dwarf runners out there who prefer to stay hidden, but be active in the world.

Hmm...they could maybe even give those new AI's in the Matrix a way to move around the physical world.

Posted by: Jaid Jul 22 2007, 01:59 AM

rules for modifying vehicles, inlcuding sensor ratings.

also, attached to that, a good number of basic vehicle designs that can be modified readily.

the other main thing i'd be interested in is actually to see something like the similar models mechanic from one of the old rigger books (i think), not just for vehicles/drones but also for the various guns and so forth. just makes things that much nicer =P

also, if this isn't covered in augmentation, lots of new chemicals (toxins and drugs both). the current selection seems rather limited.

Posted by: James McMurray Jul 22 2007, 02:12 AM

I'd love some simple but effective rules for vehicle design.

Prices for street drugs would be nice too.

Posted by: odinson Jul 22 2007, 02:19 AM

I would kinda like all the vehicles and drones to be in their own rigger book. I would like weapons, weapon creation and customization rules, expanded unarmed combat rules and new electronics. I think that a really comprehensive vehicle book with optional rules would be better by itself.

Posted by: Jaid Jul 22 2007, 02:22 AM

rigger books are the harbingers of a new edition =P

i'll settle for half a book on rigger stuff early on in the edition, thanks

(alternately, i could also put it like this: there is no rigger book announced. not even a solid rumour of one, or a subtle hint that such a thing might ever even exist. either they're planning on putting it into arsenal, or they don't appear to have it planned ever. once again, i'll settle for arsenal).

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 22 2007, 04:16 AM

hell, right now a rigger is a hacker that specialize in controlling hardware.

so the rules for riggers will probably be split between arsenal (for the hardware, as in vehicles and weapons) and unwired (electronic warfare and similar).

to me thats the good side of SR4 as sr2 and 3 had the problems of near separate worlds of riggers, deckers and the rest. hell, if you tried to use the full content of the rigger books, the game risked taking on a paramilitary feel rather then some urban criminals with a modified get-away vehicle. rigger3 especially, with its ships and naval warfare coverage, gave this feel.

but jaid's post makes me wonder, will unwired be the new harbringer of a new edition?

Posted by: Trax Jul 22 2007, 05:06 AM

Not for at least another 3 years.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 22 2007, 05:39 AM

we can only hope...

Posted by: Casazil Jul 22 2007, 05:51 AM

Didn't someone IE TPTB say something like December or something for Arsenal? I know Unwired is like January or February or at least that was the last date I heard.

Posted by: MYST1C Jul 22 2007, 06:15 AM

IIRC it was already stated that there'll be no vehicle creation rules.
But there'll be a vehicle modification system.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 22 2007, 07:08 AM

Lets just hope that those rules include numbers for stripping down a frame to near bare metal...

Posted by: knasser Jul 22 2007, 09:30 AM

My wishlist for Arsenal? August 2007.

But aside from that - tanks. I want to see some 2070 military vehicles.

Posted by: James McMurray Jul 22 2007, 01:21 PM

I'd love a book all about riggers, but since one isn't scheduled to come out any time soon I want vehicle support in Arsenal to bring riggers closer to the versatility they had in previous editions.

Posted by: Buster Jul 22 2007, 02:25 PM

A VTOL car would be great, probably priced somewhat north of a eurocar westwind sportscar. Ever since I was a kid, I was promised a flying car by the year 2000, so we need one in SR to make up for it!

Here's what I imagine an SR flying car would look like: http://www.moller.com.
You used to be able to buy their prototype on neiman-marcus.com for around 4 million dollars. It isn't there anymore, so someone must have bought it. I used to own stock in their company, but I finally decided to sell it because they really started sounding like Barnum & Bailey...all promises and hype and no delivery.

Posted by: Buster Jul 22 2007, 02:26 PM

Posted by: knasser Jul 22 2007, 03:05 PM

Posted by: Prime Mover Jul 22 2007, 03:30 PM

Posted by: Ravor Jul 22 2007, 03:40 PM

Posted by: knasser Jul 22 2007, 03:44 PM

Posted by: pbangarth Jul 22 2007, 03:55 PM

And spending hardly any extra space, you could have one of each. Talk about a multi-tasking character!

Posted by: Zen Shooter01 Jul 22 2007, 03:55 PM

Knasser, don't overlook mecha's great load capacity and towing capacity compared to tracked or wheeled vehicles, not to mention the passenger room and the ease of mounting and dismounting the vehicle when it's leaking fuel and burning.

Posted by: Critias Jul 22 2007, 04:02 PM

I wish they'd just let Arsenal decide on one costume, grow as a character, and maybe even move up into the big leagues and off Winnick's "we're so trendy, check us out" Outsiders team and get the respect he deserves!

Oh wait, he's Red Arrow now, and in the JLA, so my Arsenal wish list came true!

Err...wait...what are you guys talking about?

Posted by: knasser Jul 22 2007, 04:04 PM

Posted by: Lagomorph Jul 22 2007, 05:51 PM

Posted by: Whipstitch Jul 22 2007, 06:12 PM

I want details about vehicle storage capacity, detailed (or at least general) dimensions of vehicles/items, storage capacity, storage capacity, concealability ratings and finally, storage capacity, but not necessarily in that order.


Oh, and a pickup truck. And details of vehicle storage capacity.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Jul 22 2007, 06:34 PM

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 22 2007, 06:51 PM

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jul 22 2007, 07:14 PM

Posted by: Whipstitch Jul 22 2007, 07:47 PM

They did, actually, and I do like the idea of keeping it simple like that. But the table doesn't do much more than list some examples, really, which is a good start and quite adequate for determining concealability for handguns and the like. As it is now my group generally says anything over 6 inches in any one dimension (width/height etc.) is going to be less concealable than a light pistol and we go from there. It works quite well, really, but there's enough niggling items like forearm snap-blades, holoprojectors and mundane items in general that I'd love to see it delved into a bit more.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 22 2007, 08:22 PM

i suspect its unlikely to happen as it seems that the general design philosophy of SR4 is generic vs specific. as in, its up to the individual group to create the specifics out of the generic info in the book. in other words, no more hand holding for the GM...

Posted by: MITJA3000+ Jul 22 2007, 08:29 PM

I wish it has pictures for every single weapon and vehicle.

I must say I am seriously concerned about the fact that we are now getting one book instead of two: we used to have Cannon Companion and Rigger3, now only Arsenal. My concern is of course the fact that they can only put so much stuff into one book. How well it will be executed, well, we'll just have to wait, but I for one am a big fan of extensive vehicle rules to make rigger characters appealing. This in addition to fact that it seems that they'll now add fiction and fluff into all books, I really wonder how well will they succeed. I am however really, really happy that we now have fluff in these new books, third edition core rulebooks were really somehow lacking.


I do indeed have concerns about Arsenal. I hardly can sleep at nights.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 22 2007, 09:21 PM

well, much of the rigger3 was naval rules and vehicle design (hell, just the small print list of power plants was took some pages), and it seems that we will get a lot more of one basic design, and then a "similar products" list of names.

also, the book will be hardcover iirc. so if they can fill it up a bit more and make it worth the price (hardcover cant really be used for the size of books that rigger3, CC or M&M was imo) i say go for it.

but expecting a image pr item of gear, dont hold your breath...

Posted by: stable_sort Jul 23 2007, 01:01 AM

Keep the modification rules for vehicles, drones, and firearms simple. Leave build rules out or keep them dead simple.

I know that some people like/want complex build & design rules, but it's a game, not an accounting sim. As a GM, I don't want players bringing in maxed-out guns, drones, and vehicles. SR4 has done pretty well at this so far.

Suggestion: provide worksheets for vehicle/gun/drone mods with options, stat modifiers, and cost modifiers listed.

I think that picking a base and up to 4 modifications is reasonable (and in line with the BBB's comlink modifications).

Rougn size categories & relevent skill (for drones) would be nice too.

Posted by: Trax Jul 23 2007, 03:38 AM

I also second the motion of pictures for all the items.

Posted by: Fortune Jul 23 2007, 04:08 AM

I second (or is it third?) the motion for 'alternate names / similar models' for all the nifty new (and even old) stuff. It takes very little space, and adds a ton of flavor to the game.

Posted by: James McMurray Jul 23 2007, 05:03 PM

Please don't print pictures of every item. I'll be more than happy with pictures of some items, and the freed space being used to give me more toys I can use in the game.

Posted by: Prime Mover Jul 23 2007, 05:19 PM

I'm all for art for all entries, as for amount of space , using small pictures as opposed to full or half page and can pack in dozens of representations for gear/vehicles/cyber etc.. in each of future core books.

Might be interested in some personal power armor hinted at in past products and rumored to be used by knights of Harlach. But nothing like the acpa's of another cyber product...something bit more scaled down from that. Enchanced version of Field of Fires military grade armor would be nice.

Posted by: Trax Jul 27 2007, 06:26 AM

They should make a Shadowrun Wikipage with pictures for everything.

Ooh, now that Augmentation is out, how long until Arsenal?! WOOOOO! Can't wait.

Posted by: Ravor Jul 27 2007, 06:32 AM

Yeah, I want my frigging lasers to mount on my frigging biodrone sharks.

Posted by: Trax Jul 27 2007, 06:42 AM

Oh god, don't mention lasers..

CRAP! Too late, here come the people that want laser weapons.

/me takes cover.

Posted by: Critias Jul 27 2007, 06:56 AM

I'm a big fan of artwork for many of the more visual items (firearms and any vehicles that might be in this one, mostly), and also of alternate brand names and whatnot. Variety is the spice of life, after all, but not every little tweak and change of a name brand needs a whole new stat bar. One of my favorite little touches in Rigger 3, for instance, was the listing of "also known as _______" sort of stuff after all the cars.

Posted by: Ravor Jul 27 2007, 07:14 AM

Too late, I'm already here.

Besides, Shadowrun has had lasers for awhile now, and they keep getting cheaper and more man-portable as time wears on.

Posted by: Begby Jul 27 2007, 08:27 AM

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 27 2007, 08:58 AM

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 29 2007, 04:43 PM

What kind of implants would one have to expect in Arsenal?

With now the necessity of choosing implants carefully, it would be nice to know, instead of rebuilding characters over again.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 29 2007, 04:44 PM

i dont think i have read anything about there being implants in arsenal.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 29 2007, 04:55 PM

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 29 2007, 05:06 PM

hmm, well go fig.

Posted by: Ravor Jul 29 2007, 05:09 PM

Hell, I'd like to know if there are any implants slated to come out in Unwired for the same reason. (Not really, I'm happily ignoring the new ruling for the way things have always been done since the start. )

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 29 2007, 06:24 PM

Heh. Oh, the wait...

Posted by: Halloween Jack Jul 30 2007, 06:32 PM

Out of all the stuff in Cannon Companion, the thing our group enjoyed most, and used the most, was the wide variety of special clothing/armor available. I hope that they offer us more flavour in armored/special clothing than "This is a bulletproof jacket, and this over here is a fancy bulletproof suit."

Posted by: GWCarver Jul 30 2007, 07:55 PM

How about 2 weapon rules? I'd like to see melee combat a bit stronger and more detailed.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jul 30 2007, 08:19 PM

Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 30 2007, 08:31 PM

Some sort of "capacity" or other suggested limitation to the amount of resistance mods you can build into armor would be nice.

Posted by: Ancient History Jul 30 2007, 08:35 PM

There is one. It's called the balance on your credstick.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 30 2007, 10:43 PM

Credstick balance is one thing. Houseruling a limit is another. Having some sort of idea dropped into the book is a third, and I think could be done with about 3 lines of space

Posted by: Wakshaani Jul 30 2007, 11:14 PM

Yeah, I always wondered why they didn't *add* to Availability, like vision modifiers did for goggles/glass/etc.

Why *not* get Chemical/Fire/Electrical resistance (6) on every armor that you can afford it on?

I'd rather see them be Availability based, to keep it under control.

Posted by: Halloween Jack Jul 31 2007, 12:45 AM

Posted by: Synner Jul 31 2007, 12:55 AM

Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 31 2007, 02:32 AM

Posted by: Mordrid Soud Jul 31 2007, 04:21 AM

I always liked the martial art rules. Hope they bring those back.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 31 2007, 09:17 AM

If you just buy special stuff like spells, sure.

Posted by: Kerris Jul 31 2007, 05:51 PM

Posted by: Zeitgeist Aug 1 2007, 01:44 PM

I DEMAND more automatic shotguns. And under-barrel mounted shotguns. I've been using the info for the XM30 under-barrel, but I want an official one. Many, actually. Armor. Because my characters like to get as good as they give, and daggum it, If they're running around with a Pancor-frickin-Jackahammer, then they're gonna need it. Monomol shardblasters. INTERESTING weapons. The kind that make you go "oh, neeto!" Not to say that the current weapons aren't fun, and that the ones in CC were a sleep aid, but the kind of tech that's in Augmented has set the bar pretty high in what technology can do in 2070.

Tools. Oh god how I want tools. I'm tired of having to make up stats for a drill with diamond-tipped drill bits and a dremel attachment, laser cutters, and glass cutters! Tools and general gear is something that the game is in desperate need of.

Give the riggers their testicles back. Sweeping them into a corner wasn't cool. The fact that my combat hacker/action-hero has become a worthwhile rigger just because he bought a few drones and upped his Command program makes me feel kinda sad.

On that topic: more drones, more vehicles, more crap we can do with/stick on/to them. Yeah, we can use different names, but in the end a van is a van, and a flying bug is a flying bug.

More anthroform everything would be awesome. And biomimetic stuff. I mean, we DO have bioware, so biomimetic armor, smart suits, et cetera wouldn't be amiss.

Bring back the weapon-creation rules, in one form or another (and at least make it easy for us to create vehicles on our own). I actually didn't find them to bad, and I felt that, while it WAS overly complicated, it was worth it. And this is coming from someone who fled the room weeping when my friend showed me his copy of Rigger 3, and still gets nausea whenever he remembers the legality codes from 3rd Ed.

I'd love to see the signature weapon rule come back, and maybe something between signature weapons and specialty within a weapon group. Actually, just about all of the advanced rules in CC were on the mark. And yes, I second Martial Arts making a comeback.

Hard rules for a nanoforge. Because while I doubt my GM would ever let me get my hands on one, I still would like to see it.

I'd also like there to be roughly 80-90% less fluff than there was in Augmentation. It's not that I think that there's to much fluff in Aug, because I think it helped set the tone for 2070 and beyond quite nicely. It's just that there's way, WAY to much crap that we all want to allow for anything else. Cyberware and bioware were pretty well represented in the BBB, and it's not like we could all afford most of the good stuff. But I'm pretty sure that we've all used most of the crap BEFORE the Cyberware section, and after it. I mean, how many names can you give to a Predator? What's in a name? A Pred by other name would still do 4P...

Oh, and bring back the Americar. Just because I love saying the name. "The Americar!"

Posted by: stable_sort Aug 2 2007, 04:04 AM

I'm going to vote against weapon/vehicle creation rules. As a GM, there's little more boring or tedious than auditing a player's ubergun/ubercar.

I'd rather stick with simpler weapon/vehicle modifications. As a suggestion, provide vehicle stat modification packages in a number of levels (low/medium/high) and qualities (inferior/typical/superior). Allow only one of these modification packages per vehicle, and make these the only stat modifiers.

I.e.
Improved Vehicle Armor
Low/Inferior: +1 Armor, -1 Handling, -30% top speed, -30% acceleration, 500
Low/Typical: +1 Armor, -10% top speed, -10% acceleration, medium cost, 2000
Low/Superior: +1 Armor, high cost, 5000

Medium/Inferior: +1 Armor, -1 Handling, -50% top speed, -50% acceleration, 800

Low quality mods represent shoddy work, like just slapping on some extra metal for armor. Typical quality represents typical shop work -- using higher quality armor material, improving the suspension, and juicing up the engine a little. Superior work represents the best of the best -- very good materials, better suspension, maybe a supercharger.

The developers/authors can certainly balance and playtest specific numbers better than I can, so take those as only a suggestion. The upside of this is that stat modifications (armor, handling, acceleration, and speed) are simple to select and double check. Additionally, nobody needs to note how modifications interact and there's no chance of anybody creating a Handling 15 supersonic motorcycle.

I'd leave roll cages, winches, turrets, smoke dispensers, etc... as a la carte options, since they're nowhere near as prone to abuse.

Also, a second vote for the Coveralls, I loved those!

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 2 2007, 08:24 AM

…I believe there does need to be some type of framework to allow GMs to expand on the standard vehicle list. Many of the vehicles that I developed in SRIII were just to offer a few more options and add more depth and variety to the setting. Possibly making these rules as a GM’s only option (similar to the section on building NPCs in the Core Rules). Basically all it needs to do is provide the basic parameters for vehicle design under the SR4 ruleset similar to the design tables in the appendix of Rigger 3.

The same could be applied to weapons.

Posted by: Lordmalachdrim Aug 2 2007, 11:24 AM

One of the things from the Cannon Companion that my group got a lot of use out of (other then the tech toys), was the rules on martial arts. Were they a bit wonky...yes. But those rules did bring a little extra flavor to the game. Only two of my players in my large game started with martial arts but they quickly started teaching the others and loved facing off against others with training in them as well.

Posted by: MITJA3000+ Aug 2 2007, 11:34 AM

Yes, another vote for martial arts. I really didn't like the system in CC, the maneuvers just weren't practical. But some kind of rules is a must, there needs to be a difference between brawling and kung fu.

Posted by: Critias Aug 2 2007, 11:52 AM

Manuevers were plenty practical -- three or four of them, at any rate. That was the real problem. It wasn't that they all sucked, it was that most of them sucked and a few were must-haves (and not every martial art had access to those golden few). It was also pretty stupid that martial arts didn't...stack, for lack of a better word.

In real life, people that cross train will, almost as a rule, kick the ass of someone who focuses solely on a single art. Most arts (not all, mind you, but the vast majority) are missing something. They don't focus on grappling much, they're lacking at ground fighting, they're weaker on punches, or whatever. So people train in (as a for instance) Kali to learn how to kill you with a knife, Western Boxing for the punches, and then Jujitsu for some ground game. There you go; a well rounded fighter.

In-game, though, he'd end up with a much shittier character sheet than someone that invested all the same karma or skill points into just one martial art. Kali 2, Edged Weapons 2, Brawling 2, and Aikido (or whatever "soft" art they used in CC) 2 does not a competent combatant make (especially given the opposed rolls nature of the system).

It would have been much better to give a core "Unarmed Combat" skill, and then say a martial art costs 2 karma (or something), but that learning a martial art then applied the appropriate advantages and disads to your Unarmed Combat skill, and opened the door to purchasing appropriate manuvers. Something like that would be quite a bit more realistic, where "a little of this, a little of that, and a little experience" really does make you a very competent fighter.

I certainly don't want to see the CC martial arts come back, but I'd love to see some official clarification of how certain specializations (like "martial arts") are supposed to work.

Posted by: adamu Aug 2 2007, 01:25 PM

I am sooooo glad that this thread has finally turned from three pages of CarTalk to a deep and whole-hearted desire for SR4 martial arts rules.

Please put me down as yet another in a string of pleas that martial arts rules be included in Arsenal. And a passle of other FoF-style combat options would also add tons of flavor to combat.

I also heartily agree with the last few posters that while the CC rules were great fun and much better than nothing - some of the maneuvers really didn't seem to have been playtested. Lots of them were actually disadvantageous to use in any circumstance.
And the stacking thing noted by Critias was also a key flaw.

I always suspected that the maneuvers sucked and stacking wasn't allowed as a sort of game balance thing - but what for? That's why it all costs precious Karma. If a character is willing to bear the opportunity cost and spend the points, why not let them get better at unarmed fighting? Isn't that one of the staples of the badass Shadowrunner mystique?
I'd happily pay more than the previous 2 points per maneuver if the maneuver was actually useful (though as Critias pointed out, some were, just not all or even most).

Posted by: Ophis Aug 2 2007, 07:13 PM

I was kind of hoping that Martial arts were handled as an add to the unarmed skill (leave it generic please, higher rating means more styles mastered). I'd quiet like to see maneuvers available for more skills, like Using Pistols in Melee, or being good at quickdrawing. Place on how many you can get based on the skills rating and add that Rating 7 removes any limit and we're good to go. I'd of written this all myself but ideas for tricks were short...

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 2 2007, 07:19 PM

I love these suggestions for martial arts.

I humbly suggest that, though, that these additions, having everything to do with training and little to do with weapons, do not belong in Arsenal. I think the runner companion would be a great place for them.

Posted by: Ophis Aug 2 2007, 07:21 PM

That would give me enough time to flesh them out a bit and submit them.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 2 2007, 07:39 PM

Real power players use their Math Fu to beat up their opponents.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Aug 2 2007, 07:42 PM

Posted by: Prime Mover Aug 2 2007, 08:26 PM

Just happen to be reading through Runners Havens while patiently waiting for some new books to come out as hardcopy..ahem..

Came across mention of Ares testing armored exoskeletons in Hong Kong, gonna see these in Arsenal?

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Aug 2 2007, 08:32 PM

Posted by: Ophis Aug 2 2007, 08:33 PM

Posted by: Jaid Aug 2 2007, 08:40 PM

they're gonna have anthroform drones. we know this (they promised in augmentation ). it should take little-to-no effort to convert an anthroform drone to a vehicle that you can pilot. (in fact, i would expect that to be one of the vehicle modification rules in arsenal).

an anthroform vehicle that you can sit in is not significantly different from power armor, game mechanically speaking =P therefore, you can just declare your anthroform vehicle to actually be power armor, and not unbalance anything, because you only need to change fluff

Posted by: Xenith Aug 2 2007, 08:41 PM

I want to see rules for giant Sock'em Bop'em robots. Maybe an exaggerated and impossible laser sword too. Maybe an improved Control Rig that lets you see the future. So great. And they must be able to break dance fight. Always a must.

Seriously though, biped vehicles would be interesting... but none of this Gundam wing crap. Think Starseige. I'd settle for just those freight movers out of Alien even.
Yes, dual wielding for melee is an absolute must, something that gives those fighting styles flavor and moderate advantage/disadvantage. And, yes, martial arts "maneuvers" need a come back, but in a vastly revamped form. They shouldn't just apply to unarmed attempts... though unarmed skill should likely factor into it.

Posted by: MITJA3000+ Aug 3 2007, 07:26 AM

I for one am totally against all kinds of power armour/mecha-shit. Just...silly. Why would you put someone in a walking tank, when you can remote control that tank, that way you don't need space for the pilot nor do you have to worry about the trained pilot blowing up with the walking tank. Mechas in my opinion are just stupid.

[Aristotle: edited to remove political statement.]

Posted by: Ravor Aug 3 2007, 07:39 AM

President Shrub aside, there is something to be said for having a pilot that can't be jammed, hacked, or assumed to go crazy from being nothing more then a brain in a jar.


Of course I'm not going to defend Mechs as being reasonable, but they are cool, provided you leave the Anime "transforming and laser swords" out of the equation.

Posted by: Critias Aug 3 2007, 08:57 AM

"Cool" doesn't automatically mean it has to be in Shadowrun.

Posted by: Fortune Aug 3 2007, 09:04 AM

Amen!

Posted by: Zak Aug 3 2007, 09:54 AM

if technology makes it possible, I really see a market for them. Just imagine the arena fight you could stage with those things:D Audience will get more attached if there are actual people fighting instead of 'just' drones.
And just because it is produced, doesn't mean it will make it's way into the shadows(except for some whackos) or con security.

Posted by: Prime Mover Aug 3 2007, 01:11 PM

I'm in no way advocating a "mecha" style device in SR. Large four legged drones as a envelope maximum. But a man sized suit of military or similar grade armor with stat enhancements and add ons is'nt too far fetched. One of concept prototypes for the pentagons recent future soldier upgrades was body suit with increased str.


Think core SR audience is against turning game into gundam, made very clear by its creative sarcasm

Posted by: Dizzman Aug 3 2007, 01:50 PM

I would like to see something like a sand grenade. It doesn't do damage, but releases enough small particles into the air to make ultrasound vision worthless.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 3 2007, 04:17 PM

yeah, but augmentation gave us chihuahua grenades.

"Aw, look at the cute puppy!"
BOOM!

Posted by: Xenith Aug 3 2007, 08:04 PM

Mecha and power armor are two different things all together. Power armor... as a reusable alternative to heavy cyber... is very plausible and useful. Not to mention, you put vehicle grade armor on infantry with equal (or better) mobility and versatility compared normal infantry and you've just revolutionized supra-modern warfare. Insurgent threats become far less threatening at that point.

Drones are not the beat all end all to wars. Mass numbers of drones don't have the critical thinking that humans do, even if directed by a rigger or five. Plus many drones are more fragile (seen the stats?) than a toughened grunt with security armor (or even light armor like a long coat). The drones that aren't fragile, like tank drones, are prone to hackers spoofing commands, and are not as mobile, versatile, or effective damage control as infantry. While hackers could still mess with rigger adapted vehicles (I wouldn't even handle power armor like a vehicle really) the human pilots (and possibly co-pilots) could counter such tampering with kill switches and manual overrides, something a drone could not effectively have. Not to mention high power sets of four directional jammers or area jammers would utterly destroy the effectiveness of drones.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 3 2007, 08:23 PM

...NERPS

Posted by: Jaid Aug 3 2007, 08:31 PM

once again, just to clear this up:

i understand that in real life, jamming signals works. in shadowrun, it doesn't work unless you're doing it to someone who doesn't expect you to do it (hint: military organisations should be expecting the other side to jam everything they can).

certainly, jamming equipment is to cheap to not have handy, just in case the other side isn't prepared for it... but against someone who is ready for it (again, referring to SR4 and not real life), your signal jamming isn't going to do anything. you may as well try and hold back niagra falls with your bare hands.

Posted by: Xenith Aug 3 2007, 09:08 PM

Very few drones AND riggers will have even Signal 5/6 and ECCM 5/6 even in the military. Which is what is required to beat those directional jammers. You might not be able to jam the best, but even with a decent (rather than maxed) directional jammer, a military is going to go with flesh pilots in all but scouting missions.
Again, theres the wee problem of hackers and drones. Humans don't have those problems, even less so if you have those manual overrides and kill switches.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 3 2007, 09:57 PM

Posted by: Critias Aug 4 2007, 05:02 AM

Posted by: FrankTrollman Aug 4 2007, 05:24 AM

Posted by: Trax Aug 4 2007, 05:56 AM

I wonder if there will be a Cornershot weapon, I hope so.

http://www.cornershot.com/

Shooting from behind cover without risking your precious meatbag..or at least, the meat that hasn't been chromed yet. Also good for peeking around the corner into the female showers.

Posted by: Critias Aug 4 2007, 06:25 AM

Posted by: Trax Aug 4 2007, 08:19 PM

That still leaves your hands and the fingers free to be shot at and lost.

Posted by: Marwynn Aug 4 2007, 10:15 PM

Well one thing holding cyber back these days is the higher essence costs. What if, and I'm just saying what if, "power armour" is nothing but an external attachment to implanted cyberware.

Augmentation had Cyberware suites meant for the salarymen and such, and while there's a raging debate about Human Wave tactics vs Advanced Professionals it's fair to assume that there'd be a more widespread application of cyberware for those on the frontline. Cheap, reliable, durable, and not to mention efficient - they're perfect for combat.

Anyway, the idea is to have a set of implants necessary for powered armour to be of substantial benefit beyond the Full Body Armour. They'd be pieces of a suit of armour that links with cyberware already inside the person. You'd essentially "grow" into the power armour suit as you put it on.

Bone lacing for easier stress tolerances for the suit, various headware for processing and such, cybereyes and ears would almost be mandatory.

In other words: Add-ons, apply directly to the chrome.

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 4 2007, 10:17 PM

makes me think of the edgerunners in cpv3...

Posted by: Jaid Aug 5 2007, 01:55 AM

Posted by: bclements Aug 6 2007, 02:14 AM

Eh, I wish the Gunner's would have picked up Henry, but they did OK in the offseason. Top four finish in the Premier League, but I think they just won the only bit of silver they're going to get this year.

Oh, that Arsenal. Nevermind, carry on

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 6 2007, 08:47 PM