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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Post-Augmentation all-biological sammies
Posted by: Wanderer Jul 28 2007, 11:32 PM
Well, after taking the sum of SR4 and Augmentation into account, would you deem a optimized sammie is reasonable and viable that is built only using biological augmentations ? Either doing a limited exception for senseware or not.
I ask this b/c, flavorwise, I always strongly fancied biological genegineered superhumans a la Dark Angel, but just as strongly I always strongly disliked chromed 80's cyberware.
Would you deem, SR wise(wo)men, that by SR4 the day of the all-bio augmented (super)human is eventually aborning ? Since the issue is just about cutting-edge technological state of the art, please assume budget limits and availability are really not an immediate concern, even if we may discuss them as a sidenote issue.
Comparison of the optimized all-bio sammie with the optimized all-magic mystic adept may be interesting, too.
Please discuss.
Posted by: Fortune Jul 28 2007, 11:39 PM
The problem with ruling out cyberware altogether is that bioware has no way to replicate things like a Commlink and radio.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Jul 29 2007, 12:01 AM
That's what eyeware (including smartlinks that work just as good as implants) and earware, standard commlinks, skinlinks, and pretty much every other thing you really, really need is available without cybernetics. In SR4, a non-cybernetic combat type character is much more plausible than ever before.
Posted by: Jaid Jul 29 2007, 12:03 AM
you could have a fairly good all-bioware sammy.
but the cyberware sammy is going to be able to do cool stuff that the bioware sammy can only dream of.
i, personally, tend to think of skillwires (in particular) to be a particularly common feature of sammies, but if you just define 'sammy' as 'someone who is really good at killing people' as opposed to 'someone who is good at killing people and who is also the team swiss-army-knife', then yeah, you could make a very viable sammy with just bioware as far as implants. theoretically. like, if your character is able to go scrooge mcducking in their moneybin, that is.
(certainly the pure bioware sammy is a lot harder to detect)
Posted by: knasser Jul 29 2007, 12:20 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| That's what eyeware (including smartlinks that work just as good as implants) and earware, standard commlinks, skinlinks, and pretty much every other thing you really, really need is available without cybernetics. In SR4, a non-cybernetic combat type character is much more plausible than ever before. |
Agreed (and saved me saying it). But the new cyberlimbs mean that if you want to go the tank route, cyber is still the best by far.
Not that the tank route is that effective in a game filled with stealth and high explosives.
Posted by: Wanderer Jul 29 2007, 12:24 AM
| QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 29 2007, 01:03 AM) |
| i, personally, tend to think of skillwires (in particular) to be a particularly common feature of sammies, but if you just define 'sammy' as 'someone who is really good at killing people' as opposed to 'someone who is good at killing people and who is also the team swiss-army-knife', |
You are right about the specific point of skillwires allowing unparalleled amounts of jack of all trades skill flexiblity (as opposed to enhancing some handful of key skills or skill groups). But if we want to branch out from pure combat effectiveness a bit, and discuss augmentation of intellectual or social capabilties, maybe the picture is not so clear-cut. I mean, e.g. what about the comparison of intellect-enhancing bioware and cyberware, and a character (again, putting budgetary qualms aside, as we talking about cutting edge) that has a mix of combat, intellect, and/or "face" augmentations ?
| QUOTE |
| (certainly the pure bioware sammy is a lot harder to detect) |
If this be the main concern, bioware always wins out by landslide. Barring being arrested for other charges and being forced to undergo in-depth medical checks, the all-bio sammie is essentially free from worries about being discovered with illegal augmentations, and can laugh off environmental checks for cyberware.
Posted by: Ravor Jul 29 2007, 04:29 AM
Well that may or may not change with some of the new toys ARSE brings us.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jul 29 2007, 04:43 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| The problem with ruling out cyberware altogether is that bioware has no way to replicate things like a Commlink and radio. |
...the real problem is the character does not start with enough resources to be effective going all bio.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Jul 29 2007, 04:47 AM
Depends on what you need. Are we looking to spend as much essence as possible, or do we just want to cover the basics?
Muscle toner, muscle aug, and synaptic boosters are a damn good start, and that is totally affordable.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jul 29 2007, 05:02 AM
...Synaptic Boost II: 160,000 
...Muscle Augmentation II: 14,000
...Muscle Toner II: 16,000
...OrthoSkin II: 60,000
(based on my original bio Sammy Randi Rhodes).
Total: 250,000
Out of 250,000 (provided you put in 50 BPs, doesn't leave a lot for other implants or gear.
Out of the box, the all Cyber Sammy is much better.
Posted by: Narmio Jul 29 2007, 05:20 AM
Ditch the muscle augmentation (Strength? Pfeh!) and switch the Orthoskin to Bone Density Augmentation, and you've got plenty of room for minimal other starting stuff. Alternatively, toss in a platelet factory for soaky goodness.
Sure, not as powerful as some possible cyberbunny builds, but more than enough to be effective, and with an all new dimension of subtlety.
Not that it's tricky to circumvent MADs. Always the first thing hackers go for in our games.
Posted by: neko128 Jul 29 2007, 05:52 AM
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| ...Synaptic Boost II: 160,000 ...Muscle Augmentation II: 14,000 ...Muscle Toner II: 16,000 ...OrthoSkin II: 60,000 (based on my original bio Sammy Randi Rhodes). Total: 250,000 Out of 250,000 (provided you put in 50 BPs, doesn't leave a lot for other implants or gear. Out of the box, the all Cyber Sammy is much better. |
I'd feel better about this post if you qualified the term "better"; because while he (the cyber-sammy) may be a higher-average-stat guy who's a more efficient killing machine, he's also lower-essence (yay lack of healing!) and shows up on scanners more clearly than small cars. Bioware may be mildly non-human, but at least it's biological.
Posted by: Wakshaani Jul 29 2007, 06:29 AM
On teh matter of scanning like a car, I suddenly wonder if Augmentation has any sort of "Stealth" options for cyber... Alpha, Beta, and Delta are harder to detect than normal cyberware, but I wonder if there's something to hide it better. "Imroved Concealability" or the like.
...
Hrm.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jul 29 2007, 07:16 AM
[deleted - double post]
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jul 29 2007, 07:20 AM
| QUOTE (neko128) | ||
I'd feel better about this post if you qualified the term "better"; because while he (the cyber-sammy) may be a higher-average-stat guy who's a more efficient killing machine, he's also lower-essence (yay lack of healing!) and shows up on scanners more clearly than small cars. Bioware may be mildly non-human, but at least it's biological. |
...basically this was in reference to combat ability out of the box. Yes essence is more of an issue but a totally cyber sammy can get more under the reduced chargen resource cap than a total bio based character due to the lower
cost compared to bioware. As I mentioned in another thread, the costs of Cyber were reduced pretty much across the board while the costs for bio remained the same, or in some cases, actually increased. Meanwhile, the starting maximum resource cap was cut by 75%. Taking this into account, the "relative" cost of bio at chargen increased by a factor of 3.
Now combining of both cyber and bio would be more efficent than just going the total bio route alone.
Posted by: Wanderer Jul 29 2007, 02:50 PM
| QUOTE (Ravor @ Jul 29 2007, 05:29 AM) |
| Well that may or may not change with some of the new toys ARSE brings us. |
This is theoretically possible, but I rather doubt it, since Augmentation seems to imply that the current state of effective day-to-day survelliance invisibility is not going to be changed for bioware and geneware.
I quote from Augmentation, p. 56
| QUOTE |
| Another advantage is that bio-mods and bioware implants are usually undetectable except by intensive medical examination (unless their nature or design makes their existence glaringly apparent). Casual searches, quick X-ray scans and the like cannot discern the difference between an augmented organ and the original. Additional glands and organs, however, can be detected by detailed examination of MRIs or X-rays. Security systems at very high levels employ medical scanners capable of detecting even cultured bioware; fortunately, the cost of these systems prevents them from being widespread. The presence of some bioware implants can also be determined through sophisticated analysis of metabolic fluids such as blood, urine, or fecal matter, while the presence of others can only be confirmed through exploratory surgery. |
This seems to imply that barring the truly exceptional, super-cutting-edge security system in rare locations like the apartments of a CEO, current state of the art does not allow for MAD-like environmental scanners that cops or security guards can use to detect bioware from a distance or at casual expection or in normal security systems, which is what shadowrunners would really have to worry about, and would seriously affect the balance between cyber and bio. If Joe Cop or Jane Corporate Guard wish to know whether a random person has bioware, they have to arrest them, bring them to a medical facility, and have them undergo an expensive, complex, and time-consuming array of medical tests. IMO, in all likelihood Arsenal may bring some kind of dedicated forensic bio/geneware scanners which may somewhat facilitate the examination of prisoners, but they will be stuff you can use on a person under custody, not something you can use for casual inspection at a checkpoint.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Jul 29 2007, 05:02 PM
Since Augmentation specifies that some bioware won't show up even under detailed medical analysis, I'm fair sure it won't get detected at airport security unless it mkes you look like a freak.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 29 2007, 05:06 PM
..and if Bioware shows up, they can already detail the guy that implanted your Cyberware from the way it's implanted. 
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jul 29 2007, 11:56 PM
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| Since Augmentation specifies that some bioware won't show up even under detailed medical analysis, I'm fair sure it won't get detected at airport security unless it mkes you look like a freak. |
...this is part of the reason why I think they messed up giving Bone Lacing (which would be relatively easy to detect) an "F" legality and Bone Density (which slips "under the radar") only an "R" legality.
I have swapped the legality ratings between the two for my campaigns.
Posted by: Kyojima Jul 30 2007, 12:08 PM
As far as the legality of Bone Lacing procedures, I think that it's (F)orbidden because the process itself has no "socially" redeeming features. It is, so far as I can tell, only used to increase combat longevity.
Personally, I prefer going the bioware route with as little cyber as possible. I prefer subtlety because the obvious bad-asses will always be hassled by the cops for jandering while bad-ass. 
Then again, I try to RP my samurai as being a cultured assasin, as opposed to a sociopathic gun-bunny that relies solely on either violence or the threat of violence to communicate. One inspiration in that was the 'Johnny Mnemonic" movie, where all his mods were disguised to look like something else to the security scanners. Wired Reflexes = Easily scanned. Smartgun Link could concievably be explained as a dyslexia treatment, datajacks are everywhere...
I don't have to be the strongest, or the fastest, or the best shot, or the most heavily armored.. I have to be smarter than my opposition, sneakier, and never, ever, give my opponents a stand-up fight unless the odds are stacked heavily in my favor.
Posted by: Kyrn Jul 30 2007, 12:31 PM
I'd say bone lacing could have a legitimate use for bikers, racers and various Mountain Dew chugging "extreme" sport athletes.
I ever tell you guys the story of the skater with the rebuilt jaw and the drunken me with a broken right hand? 
And how exactly is a smartgun link a plausible dyslexia treatment? I'd think that could be (well, largely at least) treated with an image link and a dedicated sub-processor.
Which begs the question: Just how well trained in recognizing the (supposedly esoteric) physical structures of various bits of ware are security guards in the 70s?
Posted by: toturi Jul 30 2007, 12:46 PM
| QUOTE (Kyojima) |
| I don't have to be the strongest, or the fastest, or the best shot, or the most heavily armored.. I have to be smarter than my opposition, sneakier, and never, ever, give my opponents a stand-up fight unless the odds are stacked heavily in my favor. |
You do have to be the strongest, fastest, the best shot and the most heavily armored as well as smarter, sneakier and never give your opponents a stand up fight even if the odds are stacked heavily in your favor. And this includes your fixer and johnson.
Posted by: Ryu Jul 30 2007, 03:35 PM
The street sam needs cyber by design. You simply can´t be one without chrome.
Only-bio is possible now, but has few advantages if one considers the new cyberware-prices. I personally would have my eyes replaced just to get thermo, magnification and a killer eye colour. Most office-types will have internal comlinks that can´t be stolen. The most important cyber does not endanger you on stealth missions, so why shouldn´t you get it. All other functions can and should be replicated by bioware.
On the skillwires: be prepared for investigation. In my game, security officers WILL check for some skills that are not for everyone to posses as software. Demolitions, Gunnery etc are highly suspicious.
Posted by: Dancer Jul 30 2007, 04:01 PM
| QUOTE (Ryu) |
| On the skillwires: be prepared for investigation. In my game, security officers WILL check for some skills that are not for everyone to posses as software. Demolitions, Gunnery etc are highly suspicious. |
How would they do that? It's just data sitting in storage, indistinguishable from any other data unless you have read access to it. And if random guards can read all our sensitive files I think you have bigger problems.
Posted by: Ryu Jul 30 2007, 04:56 PM
If I was in the 2070 Department of Homeland Security, I´d be pushing for access to peoples skillwires. The "in my game"-qualifier is there for a reason. Their rights would be limited to getting a list of skills/verify that the skill description is right. Maybe not a useful measure as it can be circumvented, but that is not stopping them nowadays.
Posted by: Jaid Jul 30 2007, 05:16 PM
problem being, i can store that on a stealth RFID tag somewhere (doesn't even have to be on my body) or some other device that doesn't even transmit wirelessly and have it connect to my PAN only when i need the skill.
Posted by: Wanderer Jul 31 2007, 02:31 AM
| QUOTE (Ryu @ Jul 30 2007, 04:35 PM) |
| The street sam needs cyber by design. You simply can´t be one without chrome. |
If by design, you mean there may be some residual areas where bioware is still definitely definitely suboptimal, I agree. There is at least one: senseware. I notice, though, that by SR4, the availability of unobtrusive and subtle contact lenses and ear buds with all the sensory ehnancement one might need, has greately diminished the appeal of senseware, at least for mundanes.
If it's a flavor thing, well YMMV, tastes and all that, but I strongly disagree. Cybernetics and chrome look so clumsy and crude, so fragile and outdated, in comparison to the holistic elegance and reliability of genetic augmentation. Really, compare Robocop with Dark Angel. Of course, there are exceptions, such as nanomorph robots a la Terminator 2 & 3, which look and feel as up-to-date as genetic supermen, but cyberlimbs, really. As sci-fi goes, one might as well drive a Model T.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Jul 31 2007, 02:46 AM
More like the 1941 Ford Jeep. Sure, its a 70 year old vehicle, and modern cars might be sleeker, faster, and get more miles to the gallon. But you could fix that thing with baling wire, a wrench, and some nylons. Those things could climb a 45 degree incline and could limp home after being hit with a tank shell. In other words, strong, tough and reliable, everything a man should aspire to be.
Posted by: Marwynn Jul 31 2007, 02:53 AM
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| More like the 1941 Ford Jeep. Sure, its a 70 year old vehicle, and modern cars might be sleeker, faster, and get more miles to the gallon. But you could fix that thing with baling wire, a wrench, and some nylons. Those things could climb a 45 degree incline and could limp home after being hit with a tank shell. In other words, strong, tough and reliable, everything a man should aspire to be. |
I just had to smoke a Marlboro after reading that.
There's one thing chrome has that wetware doesn't; style. Sure, you could look like a mutated freak if you wanted to, but nothing says old school bad ass like chrome.
Now, as long as it doesn't really hold you back there's nothing much for it. I think eventually Nanocyberware and Cyberware have to be combined, even if they are considered the same thing Essence-wise. Give chrome back the edge.
Gimme a T1000 liquid metal arm and so on and so forth.
You know, I have a hard time envisioning a badass sammie waiting in line to be scanned. Why is he entering a high-sec area? Are they just spot-checking people?
Posted by: Jaid Jul 31 2007, 02:56 AM
cyberlimbs are not the only thing that cyber does better than bio. any time you want to get some machine interface, you're looking at something that bio typically can't do at all (simsense booster, control rig, implanted commlink, data filter, simrig, implanted commlink, datajack, radar, orientation system, implanted weapons, nanite hive, etc)
there's also some areas where cyberware's direct controllability, and reprogramability shines through: auto-injector, cyberfins, cybergill)
sure, there's stuff where bioware is as good or close enough to cyber, or regular equipment (ie non-implanted) can cover for the lack of cyber. but ultimately, cyber is still very useful in it's own area.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Jul 31 2007, 03:35 AM
| QUOTE (Marwynn) |
| You know, I have a hard time envisioning a badass sammie waiting in line to be scanned. Why is he entering a high-sec area? Are they just spot-checking people? |
Because real men don't fly passenger planes. They drive there themselves.
Yes, even across the ocean, damn it.
Posted by: Jaid Jul 31 2007, 05:22 AM
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) | ||
Because real men don't fly passenger planes. They drive there themselves. Yes, even across the ocean, damn it. |
bah, what do you think the cyberfins and cybergills are for? driving is for wimps. a *real* samurai transports himself without the assistance of crutches like vehicles =P
Posted by: Synner667 Jul 31 2007, 06:49 AM
Hi,
As a general comment, with reference to other RPGs..
..The Hardwired supplement for CP2020 has very little cyberware, because going the organic/cloned route is cheaper and easier and more reliable than metalware.
In the same way GURPS Transhuman goes with the philosophy that metalware is uncommon and disfavoured with the idea of why implant things when bioware and carrying things is cheaper, easier to maintain and replace and less noticeable.
I suppose there'll always be people who want to go the metalware route - Argent had his arms cut off and replaced with black cyberarms to make a statement !!
Maybe that's the main difference, apart from the physical visibility - bioware should be self maintaining, metalware needs external maintainance [RoboCop in his chair].
Just my thruppence..
Posted by: Ravor Jul 31 2007, 07:19 AM
Well robocop is a bit extreme considering that he'd be either a cyberzombie or a jarhead, but point taken.
I still love my crome though. 
Posted by: Ryu Jul 31 2007, 07:43 AM
To me, the way of the street sam was always chrome. Not from a point of efficiency, but from pure style. Everyone can and will get bioware (muscle without training?), but few will be willing to go chrome.
The superhuman fighters were possible before, but not every fighter is a street sam. If money is no concern, few cyber is equal to its bioware-equivalent. Even if one ignores the detection factor.
For actual PCs the basics are:
- high-end eyes, rating 3 most times
- some ear-mods, rating 1
(both replaceable by equipment, but somehow only the mages go this route)
- internal comlink (always hidden, another one is carried but has no function on a run)
- muscle augmentation 2
Everything else depends on the function of the char, but even my mage has these. The bio-fighter will have platelet factories, suprathryoid gland, bone density enhancement and orthoskin.
--
Skillwires will be reason for investigation in my game; anyone who knows his wireless ways will of course have everything safely hidden. It´s just the attention that is bad for most runners. The main difference to cybereyes and internal comlinks is that noone will be stopped for having those.
Posted by: Ravor Jul 31 2007, 07:54 AM
And any Mage who doesn't opt for cybereyes is just plain crazy.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 31 2007, 09:12 AM
| QUOTE (Ryu) |
| Skillwires will be reason for investigation in my game; anyone who knows his wireless ways will of course have everything safely hidden. It´s just the attention that is bad for most runners. The main difference to cybereyes and internal comlinks is that noone will be stopped for having those. |
That's great. So in your game, the hordes of wageslaves will take turns get their skillwires inspected - because that's what most average workers have.
Posted by: Wanderer Jul 31 2007, 10:55 AM
About style, folks, again, it's a taste thing so YMMY, but IMO you are even more of a badass when you can snap a neck with half an hand and dance away bullets, and you look normally athletic instead of a steroid addict or a scrap metal statue. I'm so good that I don't even need to look bad to be bad. Add to it the fact that I do not need any technician maintenance whatsoever to be superhuman badass, so I'm even more badass.
Now, as I said, this style judgement may still change radically when metalware evolves to go the nano route and cybernetic enhancements become liquid metal integrated into flesh instead of solid pieces of chrome. That way, metal can gain back the style and holistic elegance and no-mantainance self-sufficient efficiency that hydraulic cyberlimbs sorely lack completely.
But admittedly, I'm totally, completely oblivious to the lure of retrotech.
Posted by: Ryu Jul 31 2007, 10:56 AM
Depends - how many people have skillwires in your campaign?
Posted by: Dancer Jul 31 2007, 10:57 AM
| QUOTE (Wanderer) |
| About style, folks, again, it's a taste thing so YMMY, but IMO you are even more of a badass when you can snap a neck with half an hand and dance away bullets, and you look normally athletic instead of a steroid addict or a scrap metal statue. I'm so good that I don't even need to look bad to be bad. Add to it the fact that I do not need any technician maintenance whatsoever to be superhuman badass, so I'm even more badass. |
At which point you go for adeptitude rather than biotech.
Posted by: Wanderer Jul 31 2007, 11:11 AM
| QUOTE (Dancer) | ||
At which point you go for adeptitude rather than biotech. |
Pure adept is still sorely lacking in some areas (such as Attribute enhancement, even if a combination of multiple Attribute Boost and Berserk can patch it rather good for a while), you need to be mystic adept and cover some areas with enhancement spells, and you take some time to grow into your full power (adimittedly, this is also a problem for the all-bio sammie, unless the GM is slack with the Availability and budget restrictions), but yeah.
Until research cracks the secrets of the Mage factor, you still require Mother Nature to be generous with you and hand over the right gene package. If you lack that luck, biotech is the second-best way to go.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 31 2007, 11:17 AM
| QUOTE (Ryu) |
| Depends - how many people have skillwires in your campaign? |
Quite many people. It makes shuffeling human resources so much easier for the corps.
Posted by: Marwynn Jul 31 2007, 02:19 PM
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Jul 30 2007, 10:35 PM) | ||
Because real men don't fly passenger planes. They drive there themselves. Yes, even across the ocean, damn it. |
So there's no smuggling at all? No greasing of the palms to hide that crazy-ass shadowrunner leaking oil most likely in the underbelly of a plane? Or the cargo hold?
The man does things illegally for a living. He breaks into facilities as his nightlife scene. And his only recourse is being frisked by some bored airport clerk?
Now, if you have a wannabe sammy visiting his mom "across the pond" as it were that'd be something else.
Where there's a will, there's a way. And when there's a way there's an underhanded way.
Posted by: Dancer Jul 31 2007, 02:22 PM
Like hacking into all the sensors and causing them to display a spoofed 'clean' image.
More work though. If you can just walk right through it's safer and faster.
Posted by: CyberKender Jul 31 2007, 08:24 PM
| QUOTE (Dancer) |
| At which point you go for adeptitude rather than biotech. |
Ah, but that's a twink's argument. Style is meaningless in the face of min-maxing the rules. The cyber adept is going to be more effective than any flavor of pure street samurai, given time to earn the karma, simply because adepts get to add to the maximums non-adepts have: So, you have a skill of 6 in Pistols, specialized to Viper Sliverguns, which takes it to 8, and you're Exceptional in Pistols, so it's up to 9. You've also maxed out your Agility. That's great, but the Adept can do the exact same thing and add 4 dice of adept skills on top of that.
If all you're going to do is play the most effect characters, then there will be nothing but one or two basic templates for every role, and only minor variations on them. Personally, I like style and variety. Not everyone is going to be an adept, so you have a mundane person who wants to become a street sam. He takes whatever route he can afford to go down, be it nothing but the most effective, or with what will get him by. I'd much rather play with a group of people who can play unique individuals rather than rubber-stamp min-maxers. But that's my humble opinion. If you feel differently, then, by all means, play that way.
Posted by: Wanderer Jul 31 2007, 09:21 PM
Well, to be honest, I can be rather ruthless in my min-maxing myself, once the character concept is done. So I can choose to play a biological sammie or a mystic adept instead of a cyber sammie out of style, but once the basic character concept is picked, I'll generally be ruthless in pursuing the power, spell, ware, quality, and gear comboes that will give me best efficiency for my nuyen and/or karma. And I can accept marginal compromises with the purity of the character concept out of efficiency: e.g. the mostly bio-sammie gets some minor cyber or gear that is quite difficult to do with bio, the adept generally gets played as a mystic adept instead of pure adept for style preferences (I fancy the flexibility of having access both to powers and spells, and the image of the combat martial-artist-sorcerer) that have min-maxing undertones, and so on.
And IMO, OOC min-maxing efficiency is quite appropriate to reflect the IC aptitude of shadowrunners.
Posted by: CyberKender Aug 1 2007, 11:55 PM
I don't really have an issue with that sort of play, Wanderer. I tend to do that as well. The sort that bugs me is the people who do something like never plays mundane street sams, because an adept simply more effective. And then they have nothing but combat-oriented skills and powers. And they're all near clones of each other. Etc. etc.
My GM said to me the other night that I never make 'standard' characters, that they're always a but unusual, but they're normally pretty effective. A nice compliment, in my book. :>
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 2 2007, 05:17 AM
It's not that the Adept is more effective than the Bio-sammy (though it probably is). It's that the role of "guy who looks normal but kicks ass" has traditionally been the adept. That's going by the wayside in this edition, though, given the prevalence of cyber-adepts and the potential for bio-sammies. Still, I think limiting yourself to all bioware leaves you without traditionally helpful things like spurs or smartlinks.
Posted by: Wanderer Aug 2 2007, 11:14 AM
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Aug 2 2007, 06:17 AM) |
| It's not that the Adept is more effective than the Bio-sammy (though it probably is). It's that the role of "guy who looks normal but kicks ass" has traditionally been the adept. That's going by the wayside in this edition, though, given the prevalence of cyber-adepts and the potential for bio-sammies. Still, I think limiting yourself to all bioware leaves you without traditionally helpful things like spurs or smartlinks. |
It depends what do you mean by efficiency. If we make a pure min-maxing effectiveness comparison, as it might be done IC by a military expert:
As a general rule, nuyen typically comes easier and cheaper than karma (at least, until some kind of money for karma rule is allowed back into SR4), and thanks to bio grades you can stuff much more bio than adept powers in an individual in the short term (even if a long-lived adept can probably accumulate more power enhancements than a bio sammie in the long run).
For this reason, when adept powers and bioware do the same thing, especially if it comes in grades, adept powers are inefficient in comparison to bioware. Typically, attribute enhancement (esp. fixed permanent ones, Attribute Boosts and Berserk are another matter), sense boosting, skill enhancement, armor, toxin defense, and initative boosting.
Adept powers shine when they do things bioware cannot duplicate (e.g. many face powers, and most of the barehanded close-combat enhancements), esp. if it takes only one power application, or if you go the mystic adept route and you can synergy with sustained/quickened spells to cover those areas where fixed adept powers are inefficient.
In sum, bioware is king if you wish to build the super-strong, super-fast, super-tough guy, and adept is king if you wish to build the "I smash everyone and everything with a karate chop" martial arts master (but if you wish him to have super-attributes as well, better use bio or spells, or a four Attribute Boosts at 1 plus Berserk combo), or the "I charm everyone" social master.
There are also areas where adepts powers and bioware are of comparable efficency: e.g. you can build the "thousand faces" shapeshifter equally well with spells, the False Face-Dynamc Chamaleon Skin-Chemical Gland bioware combo, or the Facial Sculpt-Melanin Control adept combo. Again, nuyen is much cheaper than karma, but the adept disguise lasts rather longer than the bioware disguise (Magic hours vs. 30 min per dose).
It must be acknowledged there are some minor areas, where cyber gives some advantages that bio (and adept) cannot (yet) duplicate, such as skillwires, senseware, spurs, and smartlinks. I notice however that many of those areas can be covered with gears, or sometimes equalled in effectiveness by some adept powers or bioware comboes. Although if maximum "I am thrown naked in a bare cell and I'm 100% efficiency" reliablity is sought, 'ware (or spells and adept powers), is the way to go, not gear. For the vast majority of state-of-the-art basic body enhancement, however, cybernetics is definitely obsolete (in addition to aesthetically distasteful), if price is not the overriding concern.
In the sum, although, it can be concluded that by post-SM, post-Aug SR4, adepts with a little bio, mystic adepts, and bio-sammie with a little cyber are roughly all on a comparable state-of-the-art power level and can equally well fit the role of the "I look normal but I'm superhuman badass" guy, which only reinforces my conviction that the days of the chrome cyberlimb sammie are definitely numbered. True elite/professional runners, mercs, freelance enforcers, and corporate/government operatives do not need to stuff themselves with visible chrome as an intimidation statement. That's what their Street Cred is for. Visible chrome only means you cannot afford anything better.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 2 2007, 07:00 PM
No, visible chrome means you are an old school badass. It might mean you've been doing this since before bioware was a gleam in a researcher's eye. It might mean you appreciate cost-efficiency. It might mean that you blend in better in certian settings. It might mean you prefer the intimidation factor to the disguise factor. It might mean you like the gleam.
Cyberware will never be passe, brother. You want a picture of the future of augmentation? Imagine a metal fist punching a human face, forever.
Posted by: Wanderer Aug 2 2007, 09:53 PM
| QUOTE |
| No, visible chrome means you are an old school badass. |
Put emphasis on "old".
| QUOTE |
| It might mean you've been doing this since before bioware was a gleam in a researcher's eye. |
In a setting completely in the grip of a feverish, mad-rushing technological AND magical ongoing revolution, being old is by no means a garantee of being good, quite the opposite, although admittedly, Immortal Elves do show that it can. But for magic, not technology, and it takes extended lifespan.
| QUOTE |
| It might mean you appreciate cost-efficiency. |
My country has a proverb "The one that expends the most, expends the least". In a setting where technological and magical rapidly advancing state of the art is everything powerwise, this is much more likely to indicate lack of resources than a focus to maximum efficiency.
| QUOTE |
| It might mean that you blend in better in certian settings. |
Such as "urban hell" Z-zones ?? Yeah, sure, big gain. In the meanwhile, the subtle all-bio sammie, his adept pal, and their magician companion are welcome everywhere and never harassed or picked because of their appearance in respectable social settings, and in low-life criminal settings they do let their street rep make them respected, not the amount of obvious chrome they have. To paraphrase a well-known saying, cyber-girls go in slums, bio-girls and magic-girls go everywhere.
| QUOTE |
| It might mean you prefer the intimidation factor to the disguise factor. |
If you need something so blatant as a cyberlimb to make yourself more intimidating, you are already marking yourself as a lowlife loser. True elites and professionals, the lords and ladies of the shadowrunner underworld, let their attitude, accomplishments, and reputation speak for themselves, and cause the masses to part respectfully and fearfully before the predators they are. They do not need such cheap tricks.
| QUOTE |
| Cyberware will never be passe, brother. |
Only if it manages to evolve completely in nanoware. Nanites do offer a bright future for non-biological augmentation, but solid metal is as obsolete as typewriters in the computer age.
Posted by: Dizzman Aug 2 2007, 09:58 PM
I like both cyberware and bioware, and each has their place. I think SR4 has done a good job of preserving the difference.
Cyberware: Is still the most cost effective way to boost your combat power. It also has a lot more options and provides for a few "surprises".
-Inexpensive combat effectiveness
-Unique abilities or functions (cyberarm gyromount, control rig, etc.)
-Extending abilities (skillwires)
-Absorbing punishment (cyberarms, bone lacing, etc)
Bioware: The subtle, expensive method for power improvement. Low on the essence and focused around a few key skills - it is a natural for power gaming. However, it is too expensive at character generation to go over board with.
-Expensive - but you get a lot for what you pay for
-Limited range - Narrow focus on improving skills, attributes or combat
-Undetectable
I can't wait to see how Augmentation adds nanoware to the mix. I'm glad they fixed cyberarms to make them better. That will go a long way to making cyber sammies the damage soaking/damage dealing combat machines they should be.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 2 2007, 10:34 PM
Wanderer, Old age and treachery will always beat youth and speed. New and flashy just means they haven't worked out the kinks yet. No tech is reliable until it proves itself, and nothing has proven itself until it's old. But that's something a young punk can't understand. If you can't give a man tough enough to survive 20 years of the shadow some respect, you deserve what you get.
Anyone who goes all bio with the attitude that "cyber is dead", is a young punk more concerned with style than substance. I'm not saying Bio is bad, I'm saying that cyber ain't. Just cause something is newer doesn't make what came before obsolete. To adjut your analogy, It's like Win95 in a windows vista world. It still works for most tasks and is a lot more stable.
Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 2 2007, 10:52 PM
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| Imagine a metal fist punching a human face, forever. |
And only dealing stun.
Seriously though, cyberware will have its place for a long time. Bioware simply doesn't interface with machines like cyberware does, and I don't see that changing in the SR world any time soon.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 2 2007, 11:02 PM
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| No tech is reliable until it proves itself, and nothing has proven itself until it's old. |
Oh, that's great. Bioware now is 20 years old.
And DOS-based Windows is just old and obsolete.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 2 2007, 11:03 PM
That just lets me hit you more before you die. (seriously, though, we all know that's a rules oversight, even the devs. Don't hold it against the limbs. We all know the truth.)
Posted by: Wanderer Aug 2 2007, 11:11 PM
| QUOTE (Dizzman @ Aug 2 2007, 10:58 PM) |
| I like both cyberware and bioware, and each has their place. I think SR4 has done a good job of preserving the difference. Cyberware: Is still the most cost effective way to boost your combat power. It also has a lot more options and provides for a few "surprises". -Inexpensive combat effectiveness -Unique abilities or functions (cyberarm gyromount, control rig, etc.) -Extending abilities (skillwires) -Absorbing punishment (cyberarms, bone lacing, etc) Bioware: The subtle, expensive method for power improvement. Low on the essence and focused around a few key skills - it is a natural for power gaming. However, it is too expensive at character generation to go over board with. -Expensive - but you get a lot for what you pay for -Limited range - Narrow focus on improving skills, attributes or combat -Undetectable |
Your points are very good and I find myself agreeing with most of them. I'm in radical disagreement with one, though. Absorbing punishment doesn't really seem like an area where cyberware excels in comparison to bioware:
Cyberware:
Titanium Bone Lacing: +3 Body, +1 B/I armor, Physical unarmed blows
Dermal Sheating: +3 B/+4 I armor, chamaleon skin
Blood Circuit Control System: -1 to Physical damage
Cyberlimbs: +4 to armor, 10 Body in limb
Bioware:
Bone Density: +3 Body, Physical unarmed blows
Orthoskin: +3 B/I armor, +2 resistance to Fire damage, electroshock touch, climate protection
Suprathyroid Gland: +1 Body
Symbiotes: +3 to healing tests
Platelet Factories or Trauma Damper: -1 to Physical damage, if combined -2 to Physical damage if it is 3+
Damage Compensators or Pain Editor: ignore injury modifiers
I'd say that damage protection is an area where cyberware and bioware do offer comparable bonuses.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 2 2007, 11:17 PM
Except each cyberlimb also automatically adds 1 to your damage track (so 6 extra boxes in total), and with the customized cyberlimb rules in augmentation, you can have WAY more than 10 body in a limb. You can have your natural maximum+7, up to your augmented maximum. Trading your meat for metal does indeed make you tougher.
You do have augmentation, right? Otherwise you're arguing your points with only half the data.
::edit:: Never mind, you reference the blood circuit control system, so you must have access.
Posted by: Wanderer Aug 2 2007, 11:33 PM
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Aug 3 2007, 12:17 AM) |
| Except each cyberlimb also automatically adds 1 to your damage track (so 6 extra boxes in total), and with the customized cyberlimb rules in augmentation, you can have WAY more than 10 body in a limb. You can have your natural maximum+7, up to your augmented maximum. Trading your meat for metal does indeed make you tougher. |
Conceded, but going for a full 6-body-areas cybernetic replacement eats your Essence like candy, leaving very little space for other kinds of enhancements, including combat ones (hello cyberzombie/full cyborg !). You can go delta, but then you could go delta on bio, and package triple the amount of enhancements, allowing to be top-end combat, brain, and face/infiltration specialist without having to go cyberzombie. If being human tank is all that you care for, by all means go for full cyberlimb replacement, but if you aim to have a very good damage soaking capability, in addition to very good all-around combat effectiveness, then you must go for body-diffuse enhancements, either cyber or bio.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 2 2007, 11:43 PM
It's all about what you want. you can't compare a superface face biosammy against my cybered-out troll tank. They do different things.
Besides, get it all in synthetic limbs, and when the scanner detects something, just show them your fake sin which lists you as having been in a horrible car wreck.
Once you've got all that replacement done, quite a few of those lovely cyber-enchancements no longer take up essence, they take up capacity. In the end, it can actually save you on essence, depending on what you install.
That reminds me, where's the bio-version of implanted guns?
You don't need to be a full borg to take advantage of the durability of metal parts. It's just the ultimate expression of it. Makes a troll out of an elf. (no, really, I have an elf character who's a troll poseur,)
Posted by: Dizzman Aug 3 2007, 05:24 AM
Its a slight advantage, but I give the improved durability to cyberware. All the damage reduction options for bioware are really expensive. For instance, you can get alpha grade aluminum lacing for less money and less essence than bone density 3 at character gen. They have comparable benefits. You can get betaware dermal plating 3 for 30,000 less than Orthoskin 3 - Dermal Plating is crazy cheap. Cyberlimbs are cheap compared to most bioware, and there is no comparable bioware. If you want to make a tank, a cyber sammie is your best option.
Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 3 2007, 06:05 AM
Yeah, it's hard to argue against cyberware in the pure tanking matchup; the blood control circuit leaves the Pain Editor as the only truly unique tanking item in the Bioware arsenal, and that's simply not enough to compete for pure tanking when cyberware has the new and improved limbs to fall back on. Still, I think I'd rather go with a half assed biotank rather than go for the full on "what the hell happened to my essence?" cybertank. If nothing else, symbiotes and lower essence costs in general gives biotanks a much nicer set of healing modifers, which can be a godsend if you really need the Mage to patch you up ASAP. This is shadowrun, after all. There's always a way to take damage.
Posted by: Sterling Aug 3 2007, 09:03 AM
My major issue with cyberlimbs (and cyberware in general) is that despite the functionality and ease of repair, there's really a difficult gap in obtaining it in game play. Not many of us would go and willingly lop off a perfectly functional limb to replace it with one made of metal, but I'd imagine the cultural stigma against artificial limbs has lessened by 2050 with ads for new models being thrown about like car commercials are now. By 2070 cyberware is looking less popular, but even then, I've yet to see a module written that has the outcome of 'each player loses 1d6/3 limbs at the end of this combat' that would make players nod and go looking for a new metal replacement. I had a houserule (that came into play infrequently) that if a character took a deadly wound (after resisting), they could 'shift' the wound to a limb (which took the deadly wound, effectively requiring a replacement either metal or clone) and the character only had a serious wound. They could still try to escape, fight, whatever, but one limb was definitely not interested in whatever they tried to do.
If you have bioware which is much more essence friendly overall, but something goes wrong or you want to upgrade it, someone has to cut you open to upgrade or fix it. Magic does appear to be more friendly towards bioware, and a GM could reasonably decide (since I can't find it in the rules right now) that magic heals bioware, so one spell gets the bioware'd runner back on his feet. The cybered runner would require a heal and then a fix spell to achieve the same effect.
The average cyberlimb does not have that problem, it's easy to fix or upgrade, and with the new modular mount system in play (and every character with a cyberlimb would feasibly rush out to purchase it) you could have your cyberhand and a third of your forearm blown off and after a few minutes of work have your 'backup' hand and forearm in place and you're back to work. I'm aware that more invasive cyberware (skillwires, wired reflexes, bone lacing) require just as much effort to upgrade or repair as bioware, but there is the advantage that if you blow off Samurai Bob's right cyberarm he can go out and in a matter of hours (depending on his fixer and need for a working arm) have a replacement. Samurai Dave (with bioware muscle toner, etc and bone density) isn't going to find his new cloned arm with those with those upgrades preinstalled. Bioware isn't replicated by DNA.
The real issue that occurs here is that barring the GM's whim, there's very little in terms of location-based damage in SR4. They did have the cumbersome subsystem damage rules last edition, and while that did suit my need for realistic damage, the long and the short of it was it never got used.
| QUOTE (CyberKender) |
My GM said to me the other night that I never make 'standard' characters, that they're always a but unusual, but they're normally pretty effective. A nice compliment, in my book. :> |
Yeah, there's something to be said for a player who doesn't always shove the same cyberware template (with minor variations) into a similar character template (the cold professional who's always cool under fire). I've run enough games at different cons to know that the majority of players like to use what works and is familiar to them. The real fun comes with players who will take a character idea and add something (magic, tech, whatever) that isn't necessarily the best choice, but one that makes the character somewhat unique. Why wouldn't a street sam take a math SPU and have a skill in probability/statistical analysis and be able to quote the odds of any proposed idea? It's be 100% fluff, but possibly hysterical fluff.
"We could pose as janitors!"
"That plan has a 35.613 percent chance of success, with a 3% margin of error."
"We could bribe or blackmail the new security guard to let us in!"
"That scenario has only a 43% chance of success, modified by an increasing chance from additional payment if said amount is over the standard deviation from the mean."
"We could kick the door down and go in guns blazing!"
"That plan has a 99.5 percent chance of success..."
"Woot!!"
"...if the desired outcome is the imminent death of the entire group."
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 3 2007, 04:12 PM
The advanced medical rules have a new option for limb loss when you take over a certain threshold of damage.
And don't knock cutting off perfectly good limbs. If I could get a metal arm that functioned as well as my real arm, was reliable enough that it only need maintainence as often as I go in for checkups anyway, and which I could outfit like a built is swiss army knife, I'd do it in a fricken heartbeat. I am the guy who would cut off a perfectly good arm to get that, because I think it's cool. Especially in a world where if I change my mind, I can get a cloned arm to replace it. Think of it as a very interesting type of peircing.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Aug 3 2007, 04:27 PM
| QUOTE (Sterling) |
| Magic does appear to be more friendly towards bioware, and a GM could reasonably decide (since I can't find it in the rules right now) that magic heals bioware, so one spell gets the bioware'd runner back on his feet. The cybered runner would require a heal and then a fix spell to achieve the same effect. |
As much sense as that makes, I think that's in direct conflict with the way magic works in SR. Magic targets entire beings, not parts of them. If something is paid for with essence, then magically speaking it is part of the being. That's why spell targeting with cybereyes works. The way SR magic has been established, it actually does make sense that a Heal spell would repair cyber paid for with essence.
Barring the abomination that is Turn to Goo, of course.
Posted by: Sterling Aug 4 2007, 07:05 AM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| As much sense as that makes, I think that's in direct conflict with the way magic works in SR. Magic targets entire beings, not parts of them. If something is paid for with essence, then magically speaking it is part of the being. That's why spell targeting with cybereyes works. The way SR magic has been established, it actually does make sense that a Heal spell would repair cyber paid for with essence. Barring the abomination that is Turn to Goo, of course. |
You make a valid point. I think i should have worded it better; if someone with a cyberleg has the thing blown off at the knee, then a heal spell wouldn't necessarily reattach the limb in working order. But that's again a nebulous concept in the basic rules. If the GM isn't taking the time to tell the group where each bullet hits, I won't fault them, I rarely do it myself. I usually tell them they've been shot in the chest, as I'd wager most corps only care that you hit the target to earn your paycheck, and who wants to risk a possible negative performance eval because you were trying to make tricky headshots (again, not the same as it was back in 3rd) and missed completely. Plus the corp probably wants a few of the intruders left alive if possible for questioning... and AFTER they get shot in the head.
Healing three boxes of damage could, theoretically, heal the damage someone took regardless of cyberware subsystem damage, since 4th ed doesn't have that in play quite yet.
But I think it could easily be amended as a house rule that if it's a detached limb and it's not mostly meat, a heal spell wouldn't be what was needed to get it reattached and in full functioning order.
Posted by: Ravor Aug 4 2007, 07:19 AM
Umm, perhaps I'm missing some key part of fluff or rule, but it was my impression that a Heal Spell wouldn't reattach a lost limb either.
Posted by: Gamble Aug 4 2007, 09:20 AM
It's been said before but I'll say it again:
"It's all about style."
Posted by: Marwynn Aug 4 2007, 01:37 PM
One thing that may be overlooked here; repairing damage.
With the lower Essence cost of Bioware a character will take a lot less surgery damage. Now compare the availability of each item; to repair your cultured bioware you'll need a pretty decent street doc or a stay with a nice hospital. Repairing common and cheap cyberlimbs however should be relatively easier for two reasons:
1) Higher "Body" stat than character average. A standard cyberlimb has Availability 4, so that's 8 points at chargen to be spent upgrading the 3s. If it's an 'embedded' implant like just in the forearm, then it's worth it to invest in Body as much as possible since it may not necessarily add to Agility or Strength (if your GM rules as such).
2) Less damage for cyberware but easier to damage due to visibility and detectability.
3) Harder to specifically target, however muscle damage can mess up those Muscle Toner and Muscle Aug implants. Harder to target but more widespread in damage.
Helluva tradeoff. Do you trust in your armour and toughened cyberlimbs? Pay for higher maintenance?
It seems to me that those going Bioware these days may want to invest in a Nanohive and keep several Implant Medics going. At the very least they'll make it easier to repair what might be cultured sets of organs.
Posted by: SleepIncarnate Aug 8 2007, 02:03 PM
A mostly or all bio sammy isn't any worse off than a cyber one, just different. In my wednesday group (I play a troll adept with one group wednesdays, an elven TM in another group on saturdays), we have a human sammy, only cyber he has is titanium bone lacing, everything else is bio, and he keeps up fine with my adept. He's not as fast or with as high of armor, but his body stat is actually higher (just barely, I have 7, he has 
. The pair of us are the team's damage sponges/killing machines, him from a distance, me from close up.
Posted by: Chrome Shadow Aug 8 2007, 03:57 PM
The best cyberware is the one you can conceal... Why arouse suspiction or make everyone look at you??? In a game where steath is so important, obvious cyberware is a minus...
That's why I always liked Ghost Who Walks better than Argent...
And I think that absolutes are wrong... Cyberware mixed with bioware is the way to go...
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