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Posted by: Apathy Jul 30 2007, 07:20 PM

How large are the CAS/UCAS/NAN/Atzlan armies in 2070, and how are they armed/equiped/enhanced? Do you picture them as a relatively small, elite force, or are they huge hordes of mostly expendable nobodies?

My take is that they would have large numbers of expendable cannon fodder in the infantry. They would have very little in the way of personal enhancements, but would be very well equiped. (Why spend money implanting a smartlink in PVT Snuffy when it's cheaper to give him smart goggles, and when you can get the goggles back at the end of his service agreement? And if they're going back into the civilian sector, how deadly do you want them to be?)

Cyberware could then be offered to more senior soldiers as re-enlistment encentives. (Re-up for 5 years and we'll throw in your choice of Wired Reflexes or Bone Lacing!)

What do you think the equipment list would look like for a light infantry squad?

Posted by: Synner667 Jul 30 2007, 07:28 PM

They actually use almost the opposite logic in Cyberpunk 2020..
..It's better to armour and upgrade a soldier, so you don't waste the training and skills.

Otherwise, you might as well grab some junkies, put them in a uniform, give them a gun and point them at the target !!


I like the enlist for 'x' years and get some goodies idea.


With the biodrone's from Augmentation, maybe you'd just have flesh puppets as shock troops to soak up the bullets and 'proper' troops to clean up ??


Just my thruppence..

Posted by: odinson Jul 30 2007, 07:55 PM

I'd wager that there wouldn't be much in the way of infantry in 2070. Most of the battles would be fought with drones and long range weapons. I'd wager that germ warfare and biological weapons and the lack of control on them would make sending a swarm of soldiers at a target a bad idea. I'd guess that unless the army is heavy into magic that all the soldiers would be very heavily cybered. A army that is big into magic would have lots of summoners to bring in spirits that would act like drones and high level initiates that relied on ritual sorcery to nuke targets rather than be up close to cast spells.

Posted by: Jaid Jul 30 2007, 07:57 PM

regular drones are 10 times cheaper than biodrones and imo more effective. i wouldn't expect to see biodrones in military use as grunts anytime soon.

Posted by: jmecha Jul 30 2007, 08:04 PM

As far as training goes....that's what Infantry soilders do every week while not deployed. Soilders make X amount of money a month, depending on rank and time in service no matter if you have them sitting on thier ass or training, and in my experince the Army tends to do it's best to get it's money's worth out of it's troops by repeated drilling day in and day out while in between deployments.

So the idea of cybering up soilders to avoid the cost of training seems silly to me because then the goverment would be dropping cash on all this cyber in addition to dropping cash on paying thier troops. To me I would think they spend as much time as they can training troops while not actively using them on deployments and that they only equip soilders with cyber and gear that they can recycle through the ranks whenever a soilders decided to get out of the service or a soilder transfers units, or even dies.

Military units are not all funded equally and the ones that do have the cash to buy the cool kid toys make sure thoose toys stay within that unit. So when Pvt Joe Snuffy gets transffered from one military base to another he has to give up all of his equipment, pack all his personal belongings in his travel bags, and then get reassigned new gear by what ever unit he got transfered to.

As far as actual cyberware goes I would wager that regardless of the tech available militaries will still be ran by red tape and that even reenlistment cyber ware recievers will be added to a long back list of people waiting for thier cyberware.

hell I was in the service not to long ago and the waiting list for corrective laser eye surgery was about 5 years long......so I would wager that in 2070 the waiting list for free bone lacing and wired reflexes would be just as long for thoose that want it.

The other thing I learned while in the service though is that despite all the red tape, there is a wavier for every thing, so if the soilder in question has the right people signing off on the right paper work waiting lists can get side stepped and what not.

Posted by: Kingmaker Jul 30 2007, 08:09 PM

The quality of equipment and training of infantry would depended on the country, both how wealthy, and social values, like it is now. For example, Aztlan might have hordes of cannon fodder and a few elite troops, while the UCAS might have fewer but better trained regulars.
I'd expect a regular, reasonably well trained infantryman to be equipped with a smartlink, radio, assault rifle, body armor, and a few grenades. The trade of a longer stint in the military in exchange for cyber is also a good idea.

As for infantry becoming outdated, infantry never become outdated. Doubtless, Shadowrun infantry would be quite different from what we think of, but they'd still be there. Infantry are critical for urban warfare, which would probably be the dominant form of warfare in 2070.

edit: I agree with above post about the waiting list though.

Posted by: TheOneRonin Jul 30 2007, 08:31 PM

For the CAS/UCAS, I see fewer and slightly better trained/better paid Infantry. Today, an American Solder in a combat MOS and 6 years in can triple his salary by going to work for Blackwater or another security contractor. The Army/Marines spend a bucket load of money training soldiers. They are quickly learning that it's a bad idea to have all of that initial investment last barely more than half a decade. Thus, I see enlistment contract terms getting longer (prob closer to 10 years), the pay being better, the benefits being even better than they are now, and the over-all numbers of combat arms soldiers decreasing.

Regular light infantry will be almost completely replaced with Mechanized units. You'll see Armor, Drone, Artillery, and Air support all the way down at the Company level. Your regular light-infantry roles will be taken over by "Ranger-esque" forces. Individual soldiers will be relatively well equipped and well trained...probably a spot better than they are today. The UCAS/CAS military won't be planning on fighting an extended war in eastern europe or conducting occupation operations in a middle eastern country, so the need for massive divisions of infantry and armor is no longer there. Border defense and small operations in allied countries will be the name of the game.

Oh, and I don't think you'd see implanted cyberware/bioware anywhere outside of the Special Forces community.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jul 30 2007, 08:47 PM

...in past editions I had Smartlinks and Datajacks being pretty much the only 'ware a "regular" soldier would ever get (maybe a chipjack). Specialised commandos may have a bit more such as sensory mods or maybe even Boosted Reflexes. The one piece of 'ware that would be a little more common is the VCR (Drone Riggers and pilots).

Bioware, because of the invasiveness and high cost, would be pretty much out of the question with maybe the exception of certain special covert ops agents.

In 2070 though a lot of the headware can now be done though external means such as visors, contacts, & earbuds. Helmets could include a Trode mesh in the lining which would to link a wireless command matrix for display of tactical data on the helmet's visor.

Posted by: Spike Jul 30 2007, 08:49 PM

Kingmaker touches upon a great truth of the military: the infantry never get replaced. Cavalry was supposed to eliminate the Infantry, then the advent of cars and tanks, then air power...

Drones and magic and cyber-elites... they all have their place, but Pvt Snuffy with his rifle will still eat dirt.

As for what he looks like: That's a more complex problem, as has been touched on.

Extrapolating from the equipment lists in the book, Pvt Snuffy wears an Armored Uniform (an Armor Jacket, essentially) and a helmet. He carries an Assault Rifle (probably the M16 knock off or the AK knock off, militaries are very traditional that way) one guy in the squad carries the grenade launcher, one guy carries a LMG. (Nato Doctrine, assumed). Their platoon will possibly include an attached mortar or rocket launcher team, a HMG team (possibly at the FOB), and/or sniper or mage support teams.

I suspect, barring instituitionalized racism, that Orks will be very common in the ranks, particularly in infantry units.

Cyber is likely to be a reinlistment option, so your squad leaders and platoon sergeants are the ones likely to be enhanced. Pvt Snuffy on the other hand will use bulky, but durable external hardware.

The real question is Commlinks and PANs. I suspect the army in question will issue to all 'basic trainees' at this point their own 'MILSPEC' PAN, which would be the only one they could carrier 'in the field' normally. It would have a durable shock proof casing, a hard coded on/off switch (in case their encryption is broken)
and a unique 'propietary interface' for crypto. The Squad Leader's Commlink would have admin access to his team's PANs, and a preprogrammed line to his platoon sergeant. Wired to the PAN would be an A/V suite, laser rangefinding and GPS (for calling supporting fire), and basic medical sensors. The Squadleader could do a quick look for a by-individual ammo count so he could cross level the squad, his boss would be able to look at the squad as a whole. Presumably the entire thing would get routed up to the Tactical Operations Center, where the unit (and any enemy they encouter) are automatically posted to the tactical overlay.


A good deal of training, particularly in the wireless age, is going to be 'blackout conditions' training, training without access to the PAN in a field environment. We take it for granted now, but given the amount of immersion into the wireless world, it would be doubly important to ensure the troops are comfortable working outside of that. The least reliable thing on the battlefield is comms.


EDIT::: damn, completely missed the points I was going to make on organic units and transportataion/armor... oh well.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jul 30 2007, 09:03 PM

Simple sets of Wires seem like a very affordable way to increase the firepower of a unit. Wired Reflexes 1 costs 11 thousand - less than it takes to keep someone going at low lifestyle for a year. So I really don't see people getting into and out of the army without at least Wired Reflexes 1. Sleep Regulators at 10 thousand also seem like a no-brainer force multiplier.

Most military machines would probably have a non-standard data jack port as an extra form of security. So pretty much every single grunt is going to have datajacks that conform to the military standard.

So yeah... simple cybernetics seems like a cheap and awesome way to improve the effectiveness of your basic infantryman. I can't imagine a modern government deciding to not go that route.

-Frank

Posted by: Lindt Jul 30 2007, 09:06 PM

I think the better question is economics. If you use 10 guys to do the job that one could, you still have to FEED those 10. Means 20 more behind the lines. Who you also have to feed.
But I suppose it depends a lot on the overall strategy. One might have a single division of well equipped troops so you could expect them to have invested 20k in mods for each person. Another might have 3 or more full armys. Id expect that to be more of the smartlink and rifle and away you go. Gotta think how much less ammo someone with a smartlink would expend during training to archive the same marksmanship someone with out it would.

Posted by: Ed_209a Jul 30 2007, 09:08 PM

I think most of the gear of the 2070 infantryman with be recognizable to the 2007 grunt, just like the gear of a 1940 infantryman would be.

A big difference would be the electronics. Network-centric warfare and information warfare will be mature in 2070.

I think the biggest difference will be drones. Lots of drones. 10k nuyen will get you a very nice infantry-scale combat drone. That same amount will feed and train a man for a month or two, depending on training.

Yes, there will always be meat in the loop, not even counting for mages, but I wouldn't be surprised to see human fireteam leaders leading a few drones instead of a few men.

A lot of infantry work involves stuff like "hike that way, and tell me if you see anyone", or "don't let the enemy through this checkpoint", or "take that checkpoint away from the enemy". Supervised drones can do all that.

Oh, and the first time a drone takes a hit instead of a person, it just paid for several more of itself, because you don't have to heal it, or pay a widow.

Posted by: Spike Jul 30 2007, 09:16 PM

Posted by: kigmatzomat Jul 30 2007, 09:33 PM

SR4-era rank and file out of boot camp are probably light on cyber. Most of the needs of cyber in the grunts (the current future trooper concept) can be achieved with wearable tech. Milspec goggles, earbuds, throat mike, helmet-mounted trodes and a hardened comm provides a lot of advantage for the troops. Vision boosters, smart link, hearing protection & boosting, GPS/nav, communication, etc all without a single knife cut.

Career military types probably have implants appropriate for their MOS. I'd expect sensory gear would be the most common, followed by endurance-ware (digestive expansion, sleep regulators, etc) and finally combat boosters. Depending on the sociopolitical environment, infantry troops may be in combat 80% of the time or only 10%. The greater the combat time, the more combat boosters.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 30 2007, 10:36 PM

The Lone Star SWAT suite from Augmentation includes flare comp, thermo, smartlink, plastic lacing, and wired I, and runs less than 20k (less than 35k for Alpha). I might have included low-light and dampening, myself, but that's not a bad kit to start out with.

"Similar cyberwear packages have been developed for members of other law enforcement corporations or military units (such as ... the UCAS army, ...)."

Posted by: Kingmaker Jul 30 2007, 10:39 PM

Yes, but Lone Star SWAT are effectively the police equivalent of SpecOps. So it would make sense for the UCAS Navy SEALs to have a similar rig, but not for the UCAS 3rd Infantry Division.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 30 2007, 10:56 PM

Training and equipping a basic line soldier today has costs in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Most of that is training.

If your idea of putting a grunt on the ground is a conscript with a rifle and a flak jacket, that's one thing. If you want your soldiers to be competent with using your technical equipment (commlinks, radios, target designators), able to maintain their own weapons to a limited extent, able to handle weapons like grenade and rocket launchers, able to understand things like signals discipline and signature control, capable of surviving exposure to NBC weapons, and a bunch of those other things that go into making a modern soldier, your costs just to get them through basic training and their MOS is pretty significant.

At the same time, the kit that was outlined above provides a significant increase in the combat effectiveness of the individual infantryman, making him tougher (lacing), more dangerous in close quarters (lacing, wired), and more effective in a firefight (smartlink, flare comp, wired) even at night or indoors (thermo). The eye mods and bone lacing are minimally invasive, as they're almost certainly done with nanosurgery. The wired reflexes are noticeably more invasive, but the fact that they essentially double the firepower of an individual infantryman (twice as many passes) would make them worth it. Sure, it's cheaper to pass out combat drugs... but a unit full of depressed addicts is expensive in the long run.

Would this kit be standard for, say, a drone operator, a radio technician, or a cook? Probably not. Any combat MOS, however, would likely be given it. In exchange, I can certainly see the initial contract length being longer than a couple of years.

Posted by: Wakshaani Jul 30 2007, 11:33 PM

Depends, hugely, on the country.

The UCAS, for example, has a fairly small "Border patrol" of bulky body infantry and armor, mostly along the Sioux border but a few along the CAS as well. They rely more on small squads of elite troopers (Rangers, Seals, etc) that go in, do a job, then get out. Very strike-pointed.

Aztlan, meanwhile, has a HUGE conventional force, tied up along four borders, stretched thin and of average (At best) quality. They lack any real special forces, instead contracting that out to Aztechnology which has little conventional but gobs of SpecOps.

The CAS, meanwhile, has the largest conventional army in North America (Possibly in the world!) and has high-end training as well, but skimps a bit on technology. The CAS special forces are similar, guys with little gear but amazing skill.

Magic has been integrated into all militaries, but how *well* is a whole other story.

As for cyberware, never on the grunts ... that's what combat drugs are for. Why drop 11K per soldier for Wires when you can give very soldier five hundred bucks in Combat Drugs and expect to get almost all of that back? Everyone keeps two, maybe three hits of Jazz on their vest, never using it in 99.99% of what a soldier's life entails, but, if a firefight breaks out, they're ready to go. If they decide to blow off the service? Well, you can just hand those inhalers back in and pass 'em to the next body that signs up.

Gear can also vary widely, from the African "Villager with an AK-97 and a spare clip" to a CAS soldier in Medium Armor with Ares Assault Rifle, full sensor suite and commlink helmet HUD.

The *average* would probably be:

Armored Vest
Armored Helmet with lowlight, thermo, flare comp, and smartlink.
Ares Alpha/AK-97 (Either with two spare clips) extra ammo for long patrols
Survival Knife
Three Inhalers with combat drug (Usually Jazz)
Trauma Patch
Medi-Kit (1)
Survival Kit

Plus general gear (Entrenching tool, bedroll, canteen, MRE, etc)

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Jul 30 2007, 11:36 PM

Logistical concerns are probably first and foremost, as several users have noted. Augmentation makes mention of a SWAT kit and someone commented that this kit would likely find its way into Spec Ops units. This is true and may even extend into "Elite" units such as the Rangers or several Marine units. The idea that your average line infantryman has those upgrades is, however, rather strange.

The average line infantryman needs to be able to be pushed through training in ~12 to 20 weeks in an affordable fashion. If several weeks, and several thousand nuyen, are tacked onto that cycle, the military is unable to refresh its ranks. Further, 30,000 nuyen invested into a soldier as "standard" equipment that may or may not stick around is a bit absurd. More likely, they would have enhancives found in equipment. Consider the http://www.gdc4s.com/content/detail.cfm?item=aa0d1b86-ac8d-47ed-b59d-f8c2157beb7e program extended into the 2070s.

A standard infantryman would have a plethora of equipment that we be gotten and returned to a quartermaster as per mission and deployment needs. These would include helmet mods (goggles), weapon mods (smartlink attatchments, surpressors etc), armor mods (heavier armor or interwoven electronics gear) and finally mission specific gear such as advanced electronics. Because all of this gear is mobile and can be moved from soldier to soldier, the investment does not leave with the discharged soldier.

The comment made about cyber being a reinlistment bonus was a very precient one. Squad leaders and sergeants would very likely be sporting cyber, either from issue or wound recovery. Only in a SpecOps unit (which requires a term be served and a re-enlistment to enter the unit) would have mainline, rank and file cyber.

Heavy weapons would probably function in a different fashion, however. Drones would be controlled by a Weapons Platoon or Company and loaned out to units as needed. A VCR enabled rigger would deploy HMGs, mortars, direct fire heavy weapons and other heavy pieces of equipment. This allows the rapid deployment of heavy assets in a safe fashion. A MG draws an incredible amount of fire and an armored drone has a much higher survivability and reliability than a crew of meat bodies that can be ripped up by bullets and shrapnel and will most likely be crapping themselves. Man-operated and crew-serviced weapons would still be in use, but heavily supplemented by combat drones.

These Drone Riggers, attatched at the squad or platoon level, would probably become so inextricable from the unit organization that they would simple by assimilated. It stands to reason that at the Platoon or Company level, at the very least, there would be a Drone Rigger that would operate scout, weapon and communications drones. Scout drones let you see whats around that corner without exposing men to fire. Weapon drones carry heavy equipment into dangerous areas and operate said equipment without fail once there. Communications drones provide movable and semi-secure networking for your unit to other units back to command. Probably the most important part of the future Drone setup. Never lose radio contact again. More over, never use radios again...

All infantrymen would, however, be issued and be responsible for a commlink. Probably something with a massive firewall and a hardware level Encrypt. These commlinks would expidite communications from the fireteam to battalion level, allow for tactical overlays to be displayed on goggle mods, enhanced coordination and precise gathering of real time intelligence. With a tiered network structure, a Forward Observer or other qualified user could be the only man authorized to call in an artillery or air strike. Imagine the possibilities.

Probably attatched at the company level would be a specialist unit of EW troops. These men would deploy forward with infantry units to maintain their network security and if possible destroy the networks of the enemy. Another user very astutely noted that a great deal of the training time would be spent in "Dead Zone" mode, training for fighting with a crashed or compromised network. This is dead on.

Combat enhancive drugs is a tricky question. Military grade drugs would not be out of the question. Being military grade, these would likely cut out the majority of the immediate side effects. It is unlikely that these would be deployed widely due to percentile issues such as weak systems, allergies etc.

This is a very broad topic... And I am some what of a military nut with a love for military history so this has gotten my thinker a' crankin'.

- der menkey

"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemmingway

Posted by: Spike Jul 30 2007, 11:43 PM

Shrike:
Bone lacing doesn't make the soldier bulletproof, meaningfully. Dangerous in close quarters is a step in wrong direction.

As for wired reflexes 'doubling' the firepower of a squad, not really. Infantrymen do not, generally, live the life of an action hero. A comparatively tiny portion of their careers is actually going to be spent shooting, and jacking their reflexes for that tiny tiny portion is not, in the beaurocratic scheme of things, a cost effective measure.

Further, I suspect that the cost involved with 'equipping a soldier' quoted earlier is HUGELY inflated.

Consider: A platoon of 60 basic trainees has three Drill Sergeants, who's total pay for the two to three month (say three, since we are talking infantry) is going to be a whopping 20k ( rough estimate), the barracks and training facilities they use may cost a few million dollars to put together, but will last 30-50 years, with hundreds of thousands of trainee's passing by. The actual cost of a soldier's uniforms and equipment is less than 2k for the stuff they take with them, and the rifle they train with? 800 bucks, and that has to last for 10-20 thousand rounds, so it will probably pass through 30 trainee's hands during its lifecycle. As for that equipment that was the 'big ticket': At the end of his tour the troop will have to give 75% or more of it back in, so most of that has changed hands several times too by the time he gets it.


Its the same principle that was at work in WWII for tank battles. It took three american tanks to kill one german tank, but we could feild them in 5 to 1 odds and STILL save money.

Satan's Own Beancounters, I'm tellin' ya!

Posted by: Blink Jul 31 2007, 12:03 AM

I would expect a small army designed to deal with low intensity threats on a moments notice in the northern hemisphere. Relatively small by modern standards, but highly mobile, highly trained, and well equiped. The army would be sort of like what the marines are like today (semi-elite). Within that army they would have special forces units, and only officers of those units would be allowed to use special weapons, cyberware and bioware. They would have combat-trained mages and hackers as part of these groups also. If the army ever encountered shadowrunners, it would be like a sledgehammer hitting them.

Posted by: kzt Jul 31 2007, 12:12 AM

Posted by: G.NOME Jul 31 2007, 12:13 AM

@monkey: Very astute post, there's only one thing I disagree with. I really can't see the drone rigger deployed along with the company's manuever elements. I could much easier see drone/EW/Magic all attached to the company HQ (provided that they have any magic, that is).

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Jul 31 2007, 12:14 AM

One thing I've learned in the last few months is that when the issued equipment isn't up to the task, sometimes you are allowed to use civilian "equivalent" gear. In other words, with your superior's permission, you can buy your own, better gear. In some cases this is encouraged.

Fast forward, and I think that while the typical grunt wouldn't be issued cyberware, he would be allowed to purchase it from private funds, maybe getting access to stuff he couldn't as a civilian.

Another thing, many countries may enlist all metatypes, but put them in hoogenous units. Hell, they could probably make decent arguments for it. "Orcs are better suited for front-line combat duty, and trolls make better mobile heavy weapon platforms. I mean operators. Why slow those units down by including dwarves, sho are too slow to keep up and make better technicians anyway?" Humans, of course, get the preferred treatment, unless this is the Tir, in which case it's elves. Does the military have a lot of humanis members in the high ranks? you betcha.

Posted by: Zak Jul 31 2007, 12:22 AM

You should account for hardware being bought on personal basis, maybe with discount or loans given for getting an implant. And ware as a status symbol might play a role within that framework aswell. Damn, just look how much some people spend on cars and stuff... Sergeant Miller over there with that brand new cybereyes sure looks cool now.

Posted by: imperialus Jul 31 2007, 12:29 AM

The concept of "why spend money on the grunts" has always kinda stuck me as odd... The army loves it's toys and is perfectly willing to spend money on them. I mean a tomahawk cruise missile costs a cool million each and the Iraq war costs around 177,000,000 a day. Suddenly spending 20K on a grunt doesn't seem so bad, especially if the soldier has signed on for 10 years. That works out to 2000 a year, a pretty good investment all things considered.

edit: Even the land warrior is estimated to cost 30,000 per unit and we are just starting to hear grumbleings about price.

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Jul 31 2007, 12:32 AM

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Jul 31 2007, 12:34 AM

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jul 31 2007, 12:54 AM

The biggest cost for the military is getting a dude to the place where the fighting is. The amount of logistics and support behind getting that one dude to the frontline is just phenomenal today, and not likely to get much easier in the future. In fact, once you factor in all the drones and stuff, it;s likely to get alot harder.

So once you've got a dude to the front line, you may as well not skimp on equipment and training, because you've just spent all that effort getting him there, so you really need to not have him get shot in the opening 30 seconds.

Because of this, a military grunt on the ground in 2070 is going to have absolutely amazing equipment and huge firepower on tap from long range fight support platforms. He's going to be highly trained in a variety of fields ranging from combat, to tactics, to rigging to cyber combat. He's probably going to have signed a loonnnggg service agreement so the HUGE training investment doesn't walk out the door, and to ensure that that the military is capable of recruiting and retaining the guys who are capable of running the super high intensity warfare that is going to be waged pay and benefits are going to be big.

Behind the guy at the pointy end is going to be a massive military behemoth that is going to provide hackers on tap so when the black ICE in every piece of equipment he touches detects a threat, military hackers are also on site in the next 30 seconds. Probably 10.

His squad is going to be small by todays standards, maybe half the size or even less, but have multiple UAVs overhead, a suite of drones providing recon, mine discovery, machine gun and AT fire, and can call back to instantly route artillery barrages and air strikes armed with any number of munitions to his location at very short notice. He's also going to operating out of the back of a heavily armored APC that is capable of bouncing fire from the majority of threats. The APC is going to be bristling with the very latest and greatest in electronic warfare gear, and the grunts will all have their stuff connected out of that. The APC will probably feature some sort of tight band sat uplink to minimize hacker efforts.

He's also likely to be cybered up. Nothing too hideous, but wired reflexes, sleep regulators and other gear that cannot be replicated with an external device is going to be extremely common. And data jacks will be universal, though all their gear will be skin linked up.

Actual conventional warfare is going to be super fast and super sharp, with wars measured in hours.

Air warfare is going to be all important, and once the air war is won, planes are going to be focused on destroying radar installations on the ground - to cripple air-ground defenses and allow a side to use it's artillery without the fear of counter battery fire - which will be swift and deadly.

However, the actual military itself will be smaller than today. Those 5 guys could probably fight off a modern company with half a squad - once you factor in the sheer amount of support.

That said, no-one is going to fight these guys conventionally. It's a recipe for massive destruction and total disaster for whoever comes off worse in the electronic warfare. That guy will lose all his planes and all his sensors and then everything else to the unstoppable firepower of the other team, who he won't even be able to see without his modern sensor suites.

In asymmetric warfare, things get pretty sticky, but these guys will still be doing well by todays standards. the sheer recon coverage will allow threats to be spotted and identified well in advance of the arrival of a trooper.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jul 31 2007, 12:55 AM

As far as drugs go, those that support a soldier would probably be preferred over those that directly increase combat effectiveness. For example, the Air Force issues amphetamines to fighter pilots who must fly long missions in order to stave off drowsiness and improve focus. This practice is very stupidly condemned by other branches of the military, however, because the people who set policy for those branches are complete and utter morons.

Now, one thing you must remember about equipping a military is that it is extremely common for the people who make policy decisions, including decisions that effect equipment choices, to be either complete and utter morons, corrupt bribe-takers, or both.

Would the military spend 30,000 per soldier and a few extra weeks of training for cyberware implants? That depends. How much of a kickback is the company that makes the implants giving the person who makes the decision.
Let's say it is 2%. It isn't so big as to make a huge dent in profits but it is large enough to give the policy-maker some incentive. That would be about 6000 per-soldier per implant suite. Assuming about 50,000 recruits per year, that 3 million annually. That's three million per year just for writing an order which requires that all soldiers get certain standard cyberware implants which will increase their combat effectiveness. The guy making this decision would be getting paid to do a good thing, a thing which he might have considered doing anyway. Who wouldn't say yes to that?


Hell, look at all of the politicking that goes on around the development and adoption of new equipment, politicking that often results in the military adopting or retaining inferior equipment or spending billions on pieces of equipment that aren't necessary or beneficial.

A good exmaple of this would be the controversy around Dragon Skin. Independant tests, including NiJ tests, prove that Dragon Skin body armor made by Pinnacle Armor is superior to the Interceptor armor (developed by DARPA, manufactured by DHB Industries' Point Blank Body Armor, Inc and used by the DOD) in every way, including comfort, coverage, and stopping ability.

Yet, the Army has officially banned the use of Dragon Skin by soldiers and Army officials have outright, blatantly, and obviously lied about the effectiveness of Dragon Skin to justify this decision? Why would they mandate the use of inferior equipment? The reason is twofold. Interceptor was designed by DARPA and its effectiveness is a matter of pride for the Department of Defense and everyone involved in its development. Dragon Skin was developed independently by a private company. To admit that it is better makes many people lose face and it bruises many more egos.

Second, DHB Industries' Point Blank Body Armor, Inc is paying out a shitpotload of money in kickbacks for the right to manufacture interceptor. I'm not accusing them of impropriety at all, of course not. Kickback are an honorable and traditionally accepted part of the hiring process. Everybody who wants to get a job offers a kickback. There's nothing wrong with it. But you must understand that there are people in power who stand to lose millions of dollars if Dragon Skin were adopted in place of interceptor.

Between the self-interested receivers of money and the prideful morons, pretty much everyone in charge of armor policy has incentive to make sure that Dragon Skin fails Army standards, so they tell the testers exactly what they want the results to be and the testers report the results that they were ordered regardless of what the actual results were because insubordination is bad for one's career.


In another example, just look at the Bradley Fighting Vehicle. Originally, it was intended to be a troop transport. Then, some of the people on the design committee decided that they wanted it to double as a scout so its size, and consequently its passenger capacity, was greatly reduced. Then somebody decided that it would be better with a giant rocket launcher on top.
The result has been accurately described as a troop transport that is too small to transport troops, a scout that is too conspicuous for scouting, and a tank that is too lightly armored to serve as a tank, all rolled into one multi-billion-dollar vehicle. There was also a big scandal over corner-cutting that essentially turned the initial Bradley prototypes into rolling deathtraps. This was taken care of, despite attempts by interested parties to just cover it up and send out production models that tended to burst into flames when struck by small arms and trap the crew inside with no possible way to escape burning to death. Correcting these defects, of course, cost billions of dollars more. The versions of the Bradley that are out on the battlefield are safe are used with great effectiveness as a scout, a troop transport, and a tank killer. But it still can't carry many troops, is conspicuous for a scout, and wouldn't survive traditional tank combat (Bradleys use TOW missiles rockets to snipe tanks and these missiles can only be fired when the vehicle is parked, but they are highly effective due to their superior range).

So yes, military equipment development and adoption does tend to be a clusterfuck. In some ways, one could say that the US military is effective not because of all of these high-tech toys that are constantly being introduced, but in spite of them.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jul 31 2007, 12:55 AM

Posted by: Jaid Jul 31 2007, 01:16 AM

i would tend to think that with simsense, training your troops is going to cost less. a lot less. no need to outfit them with real equipment, no need to provide an actual training facility, you just hook them up to a simsense module and let the 'soft do it's work in training them.

i would also tend to think that, as has been mentioned, wherever actual humans are used, they tend to be elite forces.... drones are simply crazy cheap, and any milspec drone comes with rating 5 matrix attributes off the shelf (ie will be throwing 9 dice *before* equipment modifiers, just from pilot 5 + autosoft 4). not to mention the effectively hardened armor, and the effective wired reflexes 2.

seriously, drones are just too cheap to send in humans, unless those humans are augmented and largely responsible for making decisions, imo.

Posted by: Catharz Godfoot Jul 31 2007, 01:18 AM

If the greatest cost per soldier is training, skillwires could quite possibly be the best investment. This depends on what amount of training gives (on average) what skill rating, and how much Edge the average grunt has.

However, think of the possible benefits: You can grab anyone off the streets, give them a standardised brain implant with a your standard skillwares and some brain washing, hand them a gun, body armor, drugs & a comlink, and drop them off at the front lines.

If you look at it from a logical (but not rules-based) perspective, implanting the skillwires sets up the foundations for implanting a lot of additional headware, from datajacks and comlinks to self-destruct systems and overrides which will allow a rigger to jack into (and control) the body of any infantry man if it is useful to do so.

Depending on the cost of surgery relative to the cyberware, it might even be possible to remove the 'ware and re-use it. You'd end up with a burnt out, brain damaged junkie with a bunch of shitty cyber limbs and none of the skills ex-soldiers use to get into security forces, which is exactly how you want it in a cyberpunk dystopia.

Posted by: G.NOME Jul 31 2007, 01:34 AM

I think attaching a drone rigger to a squad still doesn't make sense. Which fireteam is he a part of? A logical extrapolation of the last 60 years of military doctrine would attach these soldiers to the company HQ. They might still be in communication with individual squads/platoons, etc., but the rigger's meat body is more effective when kept off of the front lines.

My view is thought is that in the infantry OOB he'd fill a role more like that of a spotter or forward air controller of some kind. I doubt the military would but their semi-autonomous killbots under the control of Pvt. Pyle from French Lyk, Indiana.

Posted by: kzt Jul 31 2007, 01:50 AM

Posted by: hyzmarca Jul 31 2007, 02:09 AM

Dragon Skin did receive NIJ Level III certification on December 20, 2006 and heat testing conducted by Stanford University Medical Center showed that the Dragon Skin is able to withstand temperatures of up to 170 F and tests conducted by NBC show that Dragon Skin is more reliable against multiple impacts than Interceptor is.


The problem with using remotely controlled drones of the battlefield is that it is possible for an enemy to take control of those drones himself and tell them to kill you. He doesn't even have to be in the same country as the drones, due to the wireless matrix. It is more difficult to change the loyalties of meat soldiers.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 31 2007, 02:12 AM

Posted by: toturi Jul 31 2007, 02:16 AM

I think that there should be different "business" models for different armies. If your labor is cheap or your army model is based on citizen militia, then the small professional army model goes out of the window. Even then, equipping an infantry militiaman with the necessary external gear isn't going to break the bank(of course, provided the guy knows how to use it).

If you going to get a small well-equipped and well-support combat force, then the question would be what would be the most effective and efficient combat force? You could have a cost effective force, but unless your army is effective, you are well and truly fucked. What is the level of combat effectiveness is necessary to defeat an enemy, hell, what is the level of combat effectiveness necessary to deter an attack in the first place? What is the maximum cost efficiency that can be achieved within this combat effectiveness?

An interesting question would be: What is the overall combat effectiveness of a (meta)human-wave type army equipped with the most cost effective non-implant gear vs a small "professional" army?

Posted by: Jaid Jul 31 2007, 02:26 AM

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Jul 31 2007, 02:34 AM

And lets not forget the cyberpunk part of the equation. Sure , it makes more sense to outlay the cash, but this is in part a dystopia. The problem with non-career soldiers getting combat cyber is that they go back into the civilian world with it. It may not make them as jittery as cram (though it comes close, according to the fluff), but the government would NOT want every disaffected veteran that combat capable. (I'm not saying this is actually a good argument, I'm saying that it's the argument someone would use.)

Cram, nitro and jazz are street drugs. The milspec drugs are probably better. Most of that training and equipment we give soldiers today is in place because we care about bringing them home (Either from altruism or because they've learned that bodybags break the moral back home, you judge). In a dystopian future where life is cheap compared to the bottom line, It's just more gritty to throw soldiers out on the front lines with nothing but an assault rifle and some combat drugs that ARES swears has no side effects. You want armor, buy it out of pocket, grunt. We sell it at the quartermasters for a months worth of your pay. All personal combat gear must be purchased from the army's official quartermaster/ARES representative. Then throw that soldier and his squad up against a cyber-zombie down in amazonia, then when the sole remaining survivor comes back missing all his limbs, let him know about the special program where the government will replace all his missing parts with better ones, and give him other upgrades besides, just by signing up for another 3 tours of duty and signing this waiver.....

I'm not saying it's a better way to run an army, I'm saying it's better STORY.

Posted by: Blink Jul 31 2007, 02:47 AM

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jul 31 2007, 02:48 AM

Posted by: jmecha Jul 31 2007, 02:50 AM

It would take pages to type out all of the shit that a squad of Infantry carries with them in 2007, but I'll attempt to give a brief guide line..

Squad Leader = Assualt Rifle, Scope, 210 rounds, 2 grenades + maps, radios and other leadership role based equipment
____________________________________________________________________
Team Leader A = the same shit as the Squad Leader

Automatic Rifleman A = light machine gun with about 600 rounds and 2 grenades

Grenidier A = assualt rifle, with 210 rounds and a grenade launcher undermount with 48 40mm grenades

rileman A = Assualt rifle with 210 rounds, 2 grenades, and also due to his lack of other equipment compared tot he rest of the team this rifleman becomes the team's pack mule and has to carry the breaching kit filled with wire cutters, sledge hammer, and any other extra gear the people above him think they may need but do not want to carry
____________________________________________________________________
Team Leader B = the same shit as the Squad Leader

Automatic Rifleman B = light machine gun with about 600 rounds and 2 grenades

Grenidier B = assualt rifle, with 210 rounds and a grenade launcher undermount with 48 40mm grenades

Rileman B = Assualt rifle with 210 rounds, 2 grenades, and also due to his lack of other equipment compared tot he rest of the team this rifleman becomes the team's pack mule and has to carry the breaching kit filled with wire cutters, sledge hammer, and any other extra gear the people above him think they may need but do not want to carry
____________________________________________________________________

in addition to all of the weapons, everyone also has to carry enough food and water(water is heavy) to support themselves for how ever long a mission is expected to take x2 or x3 because nothing ever goes to plan and there is no such thing as a timely resupply in the field so best to have everything you may need with you on incase a week long mission turns into a month long mission with no resupply.

soldiers also carry changes of clothes and hygiene kits so they can attempt to stay some what comfortable while spending unknown amounts of time living in the worst of the elements regardless of weather condtions.

In addition to the 210 rounds carried by people with assualt rifles and the 60 rounds the light machine gunner carries, everyone in an infantry squad does their damnest to beg barrow or steal before an assignment to make sure they have extra extra ammo...just in case

The short of it is that your average front line infantry squad carries a ridiculous amount of shit on their backs everywhere they go and they live in the worst possible conditions. Equipment is always made by the lowest bidder and there never seems to be enough of what is needed to go around. Training is the only thing soldiers really put their faith in besides eachother in the field because you never know when some piece of shoddy second hand gear that's been used and reused will crap out on you.

In 2070 I would Imagine soldiers are still trained instead of skill softed up because it is cheaper to train then it is to skill soft. soldiers are in the Army for X amount of years and if you skill soft them up it cost the price of skill softs and you still have to pay them for X amount of years.....if you skip out on the skill softs though you only have to pay the price of having a soldier for X amount of years and continually train him during that time.

Infantry soldiers of today are jacks of all trades because they need to be to function in the field. soldiers are trained, trained, and then cross trained in small arms, close quarters combat, survival skills and out door land navigation, demolitions, communication skills involving basic hand and arm signals to satellite linked telecommunications, the lowest rifleman is trained to pick up and weapon from his squad and use it effectively as well as fill the role of a Team Leader or Squad Leader if need be.

Today's Infantry tactics involve more the "GET THEM!" soldiers are trained in a variety of stealth skills, raids, flanking maneuvers, calling for fire from either air support, naval guns, or mortar crews.

I could only Imagine that in 2070 the Infantry would be out of neccssarite even better trained and cross trained then the soldiers today....but their equipment will still be made by the lowest bidder and recycled through the ranks untill it finally breaks beyond repair, they will still have to carry miserable amounts of weight on their backs....rember Equipment being lighter in 2070 just means they will be carrying more of it, and Infantry soldiers will still be living in the worst of conditions out on the front lines somewhere regardless of rain or shine because that is their job.

If you ever use Infantry in your game, use each squad as a poorly equipped but well trained group of runners....they will work excellently as a team covering eachother and doing their best to flank and out maneuver the enemy while surpressing them with fire and always calling fire support if it is available.

The US Army infantry does not win because it is the best equipped...the US Army Infantry does what it does because there are few things out there that can stand up against or get away from well trained young american men who group up in an action hero gun culture who have been well trained together an given full automatic weapons.


I can see everyone having Smart Goggles and Military Com Links and everything else they can possibly carry on their backs as long as the Army can take it from them and reuse it after that particular soldier is done with it. I can only imagine actual cyber ware being installed in a soldier as a replacement part for some piece of his body that got damaged beyond repair in either combat or in a training exercise.

For senior soldiers, the guys who have been around for one or two tours of duty and keep reenlisting I could see there being Cyberware incentives tossed at them but it will always be lower end cyber ware, never anything that is SOTA.

Special Forces though and other goverment Black Ops groups....well I could see those guys decked out in all the bells and whistles of SOTA drek.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 31 2007, 02:53 AM

"Developed by Lone Star’s R&D Division, Jazz was designed to better the odds for run-of-the mill law-enforcement officers who run up against augmented street samurai."

I didn't even mention Kamikaze, a "tailored combat drug" with a "destructive effect on the user's metabolism." In addition, it only lasts about half an hour, on average, so you start running into the problems of taking lots of Kamikaze, like hallucinations, uncontrolled movements, anxiety... always good.

From the cyberpunk angle of things, bunches of whacked-out conscripts on combat drugs are great. From the "would a high-budget professional armed unit use these?" point? Not so much.

It's quite possible that, say, the CAS army isn't really a good analogue to a modern, US-style army. Corporate armies might be more along those lines, with their interest in streamlining, public relations, and getting more out of less.

Posted by: toturi Jul 31 2007, 02:54 AM

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Jul 31 2007, 03:14 AM

The only ware I see going anywhere near being universally implanted is skill wires. You say it costs less to train them rather than chip them. What's your justification? Assuming that a skill rating of 3 is acceptable to the generals, then we're talking 9000 per skill, plus a one time cost of 10000 (a rating 5 skillwire, allowign for more skills at once, or if necessity demands, a higher rated skillsoft. ) The skillsofts are copyable if presented that way, you can be damn sure the military will pay for a "free to copy and distribute within the unit for work purposes" license. So for whatever the subscription fee for that would be (probably several million), you have a copy for every soldier, How much does training cost , per the shadowrun rules?

Furthermore, soldiers can be issued skillsofts for the equipment they are issues for the mission. No need to train a special heavy support guy, or a special artillery crew, or a special mechanic crew, or whatever, since each soldier can slot whatever skill is needed for the mission.

Best of all, when discharged, they take none of that knowledge back into the civilian market. The skillwires will make them attractive hires to corps looking to cut down on training time, but the dangerous knowledge of how to kill people well stays where it belongs, with the government.

In my game, in all the developed nations, it is illegal to require the implantation of cybernetics as part of employment, even by the military, The reasoning is that several studies have shown that the implantation of cyberware (or any other implant) harms a person's aura, and it is widely assumes, their soul. This is unprovable, but a person's right to decline augmentation is guarenteed under religous freedom because of this common beleif. A public outcry assures this law got on the books most places (not that it applies to Megas, but in their general business practices they play along.) You can provide incentives to get certain ware installed, and you can preferentially hire, but you cannot require that an employee get an upgrade. So the military is bound by this same law, moreso because it's enforced, and so no soldier who doesn't want implants can be forced to take them.

Posted by: Wakshaani Jul 31 2007, 03:35 AM

The biggest thing that I get from my guys in the service (Which, sadly, I was never able to manage) is, of all things, batteries. All the high-tech gear is neat and all, but, the battery life is measured in hours, not days. And when teh batteries die, they have an extra 20 pounds of useless junk cluttering up thier weapon. Some of them took to keeping a set of batteries in their pockets, for use when needed, and just chucking teh rest off the nearest hillside when no one was looking.

Then again, another group was in Saudi during Gulf I, where they were going to pick up pallets that were being issued for use in tents, to provide a sleeping area. When lining up, they somehow got wind that three other groups weren't going to make it, so told the issuing sergeant that they were there to pick up the pallets for those three groups. His unit not only had double-wide sleeping areas thanks to this, but they started setting up porches (!) for a more relaxing stay.

...

Military life is different.

Posted by: jmecha Jul 31 2007, 03:38 AM

I assure you that training a Soilder is actually pretty cheap.

Pvt Joe Snuffy Joins the Army for 5 years.

Day One of those Five Years he does not know a damn thing about being a Soldier but he his assigned to a team leader and is part of a Squad filled with Soldiers who have been doing their jobs longer then Day One Joe Snuffy and they know more shit then he can ever imagine. There is no war that Joe Snuffy's Army is currently engaged in so he spends day in and day out surrounded by all of these people who know more then he does about the Army and they do their best to train Joe Snuffy so that way when they all eventually go to war together Joe Snuffy is useful and does not do something stupid to get them all killed.

When there is no war at hand and Soilders are not immediately being sent straight to the front lines of a war, they get assigned to units in garression somewhere. Infantry Soldiers have nothing to do in garresion except to spend their time training constantly.

In time though Joe Snuffy gets promoted and actually knows alot about his proffession and now he is one of the soldiers who trains the new guys on a daily basis while still constantly being drilled and tested by the people above him. With every passing year there are new soldiers who need training and soldiers who have the experince of previous years to train them.

As far as price goes...you have to feed and house and pay all of theese soldiers anyway, the actual training they recieve from eachother is free. There is money spent on all of the equipment they train with, but that is all equipment they would need regardless if they were training or trained by Skill Soft. The only real price of training as far as equipment goes is the price of the ammo they are expending at firing ranges and even if soldiers where skill softed up they would be routinely taken to ranges and what not to drill anyway.

The Army Infantry Trains it's self, the claims that it cost large amounts of money to train soldiers is a lie. Experinced Soldiers train Inexperinced Soldiers and the cycle repeats. The money that is "spent on training" is just the money it costs to feed and house and equip all thoose soilders being trained, and you have to house and feed them no matter if they have skill softs or not.

So why spend money on equipping each soldier with skill softs, when if they can just learn thoose skills from the people who they are going to be living and working with anyway who can train them?

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jul 31 2007, 03:38 AM

Posted by: Vaevictis Jul 31 2007, 03:40 AM

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Jul 31 2007, 03:40 AM

One of my friends was put in charge of his groups tailor shop, which had no sewing machines and no budget for equipment. He informs me that there is a military specific craigslist-like exchange, where he traded for the parts he needed, and then he tricked the machine shop into fabricating the sewing machines for him.

Military life is different indeed.

Posted by: jmecha Jul 31 2007, 03:41 AM

I could see Skill Softs being issued to Soldiers only if the Soldiers were going straight from basic training into a meat grinder that was hungery for bodies, simply because there is no time for training....but when there is no war currently calling for more blood, the Infantry has nothing but time to train with.

And yes, Military Life is different, very different

Posted by: Kingmaker Jul 31 2007, 03:52 AM

I still think modern warfare experiences show than en masse armies, even trained ones, will get cleaned up by modern air and naval power. I see Air Assault Infantry as the troops of the future, fighting in Urban Terrain, rather than Mech Infantry in open terrain.

Back on topic: Conscripts whacked out on drugs is probably the most cyberpunkish route. Kamikaze, Cram, and Jazz are indeed all combat drugs. But none are milspec. It is not inconceivable that the military has much less damaging drugs than those. Of course, thats up to you as GM.

As for skillwires, the problem is that your troops aren't going to get better. Now, depending on the military, they may not care.
I still think the most likely way for a soldier to get access to cyber would be to agree to an extended enlistment. Like, say, twenty years.

edit: I think the question of US vs China would matter almost entirely on where it was fought. US invades China, US has problems projecting enough force across the Pacific to win. China invades US, USN hands out awards to the warship that sinks the most Chinese transports. Neither scenario is likely.

Posted by: kzt Jul 31 2007, 04:06 AM

Posted by: hyzmarca Jul 31 2007, 04:10 AM

Posted by: kzt Jul 31 2007, 04:22 AM

Posted by: Ddays Jul 31 2007, 07:18 AM

On the Dragon Skin thing, I would definitely say that the whole thing seems pretty fishy to me.

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,138277,00.html

Failing this badly after prior tests (including NIJIII tests, including an independent Stanford test: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,138277,00.html) seems amazingly coincidental.

I would have to say that this whole thing brings out the conspiracy theorist in me.

Posted by: Zak Jul 31 2007, 09:14 AM

Let's see what infantry (including small drones in the 2070s) is actually good for. Securing buildings, towns and otherwise obstructed terrain. Of course they can be used for more than that, but that is where they shine at. It is just impossible to hold a town with some tanks or an airplane. This is a lesson the military at large has learned already today and I doubt this doctrine will change much.
Of course in a high technical army drones will cover some of the crappy jobs like clearing a bunker or entering a building first.
However, as nice as drones are, they need service. Technology is prone to failure, especially if exposed to bad climate and gunfire (or a combination). While normal soldiers are prone to failure due to gunfire they handle shitty climate better, they don't jam because a sand corn slipped into the controls etc etc. Their motivation might drop a bit but we got drugs for that - or personachips if you are one of the mean guys, and hey we talk about people who happily wage war for some worth of resources. And you would have a life-long conscript. Starting to like the idea.
As noted before in this thread, personal armor reduces lethality rates at a really good ratio. It doesn't really matter what kind of body armor is better today or what company has the better propaganda on YouTube - got a nice run idea out of it though. What matters is, that probably all grunts are going to wear one just like today. There might even be a niche for Full Body suits, but in a running campaign they would just be too bulky, complicated and expensive to use.

As for conventional warfare, as 'interesting' as it might be to see a conventional war between nations, it's not going to happen. Yes, SR canon has some cases, but I highly doubt that most conflicts would have worked the way they were depicted from a social or military perspective. For the ease of SR history I will not further question that. It is 'history'.

Posted by: TheOneRonin Jul 31 2007, 12:59 PM

Posted by: TheOneRonin Jul 31 2007, 01:35 PM

Posted by: Kyrn Jul 31 2007, 02:18 PM

With the amount of money spent on training a soldier (I'm totally discounting all arguments that a modern infantryman is cheap to train as I find no factual basis for them) I fail to see how cyberware wouldn't be issued to individuals assigned to combat units.
You want increased troop survivability without an increase in armor weight? Dermal Plating and a Platelet Factory. This would cost literally nothing compared to the amount spent on basic training alone, and I can't think of anything that would be a greater morale booster. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is the biggest gripe I hear from jarheads today.

Increased troop lethality? Attention Coprocessor. It cost nine thousand nuyen and will increase the average soldier's ability to process sensory data (a Perception test) by fifty percent. That means fewer ambushes, fewer casualties, and oh yeah, more dead bad guys who really thought they were well camouflaged and damned near invisible.

Now, for some reason reaction boosting ware seems to get shot down the most when considering a soldier's needs, but the ability to DUCK! fast as all get out is rather paramount. So a Reaction Enhancer would seem plausible, but oh wait, Wired Reflexes 1 costs only ten percent more. So I'd say one of them would see widespread use.

So far that's 64-65 thousand bucks. In return for which the fielding force would see soldiers that are far more likely to survive combat wounds and faster to return to fighting trim, much harder to ambush, better at locating the enemy (a necessary precedent to killing the enemy), and better able to seek cover or return fire before the enemy can do much harm.

As for the CAS. Well, they've got a carrier (pretty sure Japan has/had some too though), they've got Special Forces training grounds littering up the place, they've got the Stonewall (the tank that put the M (for M-F'ing) back in MBT), and I believe (though I may be wrong) that they're noted as having remarkably well integrated magical forces. And, of course, they've got Freebird!

Now, as far as integrating magicians into forces goes, SR canon has repeatedly presented that the force with tactical integration at the platoon level succeeds over forces with less flexible structuring. (Okay, that sentence didn't even make much sense to me, but I'm sure someone not cramming can better run with my point)

Finally, I see longer enlistment terms as not only inevitable, but probably desirable by all parties. The military gets more veteran troops and the troops get that most rare of properties: a regular paycheck from the same employer, guaranteed pensions, and health benefits.
This the realistic approach. For more cyberpunk simply take two parts "endless propaganda onslaught from birth", mix with one part "personafix brainwashing" and pepper liberally with "serve loyally or your family dies". Optional garnishes include regular forces being deployed as internal police and mandatory testing following primary state-run education with the high scorers earning mandatory military service. And with enough propaganda, the kids will even stay up late studying for that test.

Must stop letting my brain vomit on keyboard and study. Rrrr...

Edited for tags.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 31 2007, 02:46 PM

freebird?

Posted by: Kyrn Jul 31 2007, 02:58 PM

Dude? Skynyrd? Seriously?


I weep for today's youth.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jul 31 2007, 02:59 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsWz-Q7JYQA

Posted by: Wakshaani Jul 31 2007, 03:18 PM

So, of course, Shadows of North America picks *now* to go into hiding.

Harumph.

Well, since my closet refuses to divulge secrets, if you'll grab your own, sure to be handier, copy, you'll see a chat about the assorted militaries. There it notes teh Aztlan forces, UCAS, Sioux, and, yes, teh CAS, which is listed as teh largest and well-trained, but lacking in tech. In smaller areas, however, they're bleeding edge, such as their submersable carrier tech, which no one else has, and a main manufacturer of T-birds.

The CAS is closer to the modern USA military than the UCAS, which doesn't actually protect the world anymore. They have too many problems on their own borders and pulled out of NATO and asia decades ago.

Of course, there's never been a book about the CAS, so, we've never gotten to look that deep into my homeland.

Alas, alas.

Posted by: Spike Jul 31 2007, 03:39 PM

Posted by: TheOneRonin Jul 31 2007, 03:50 PM

Posted by: bclements Jul 31 2007, 03:56 PM

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 31 2007, 04:34 PM

Posted by: Kyrn Jul 31 2007, 04:41 PM

I've gotta say that the salaries of the trainers and trainees are way way way towards the bottom of the pile of expenses training incurs. I'll try to sneak away from International Shipping in a bit and compile a projection of costs associated with infantry training from research I did a while back concerning founding my own state. Long story.

Oh, and FREEBIRD! WOO!
<lighter>

"If I leave here tomorrow
Would you still remember me?
For I must be travelling on, now,
'Cause there's too many places I've got to see.
But, if I stayed here with you, girl,
Things just couldn't be the same.
'Cause I'm as free as a bird now,
And this bird you can not change.
Lord knows, I can't change.

Bye, bye, its been a sweet love.
Though this feeling I can't change.
But please don't take it badly,
'Cause Lord knows I'm to blame.
But, if I stayed here with you girl,
Things just couldn't be the same.
Cause I'm as free as a bird now,
And this bird you'll never change.
And this bird you can not change.
Lord knows, I can't change.
Lord help me, I can't change.
I can't chanayanayayayange!"

</lighter>

Posted by: Ravor Jul 31 2007, 04:54 PM

Also it seems to me that like someone else has mentioned, VR would be a big deal in training, and although most likely not nearly as good as the real thing, in a cyberpunk world it is likely to be seen as "good enough".

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 31 2007, 04:59 PM

hell, when you can feel the pain of getting shot, you may desensitize the victim of it. that is, if you also make sure that people get "treated" soon enough.

just remove their fear of dying and people can do all kinds of crazy things.

Posted by: Spike Jul 31 2007, 05:17 PM

Posted by: TheOneRonin Jul 31 2007, 05:25 PM

Posted by: Big D Jul 31 2007, 06:01 PM

This has been a fun thread.

A few notes, at high level. What kind of gear the "average" soldier carries in 2070 is probably meaningless; for that matter, you could say the same thing today. The "average" infantryman today carries some sort of firearm. The rest, isn't "average", but based on details. An earlier post describes the standard 9-man US Army squad. But, Marines use a different organization. And US troops in general will be much better-equppied and trained than similar troops in most other countries.

To come up with TO&E for a country in 2070, step back and consider a few factors:

* Mission. What's the Objective? What are the Threats? Is the army built to defend open terrain (lots of drones?), assault urban objectives (small forces heavy on commandos?), or provide a mandatory service option for conscripts that offers remedial education and disclipline for a society that has little of either?

* Culture. How does the public perceive the military (and the mission)? How casualty-averse is the public? We do a lot of things today that would have seemed lavish or in some cases silly to WWII soldiers, because we are so hideously casualty-averse. This can be a good or bad thing at times, I'm just pointing it out as an issue, not making judgement. It also ties into the next point...

* Budget. A lot of the argument in this thread has been over whether the military would pay for chrome vs. using long-life external gear and cheap drugs. That depends a lot on how much money the nation has available (GDP/taxes), how much of that it is willing to spend on individual troops (culture), and what they're intended to be used for (mission). WWII movies color a lot of people's minds with the impressions that total industrial war left on them. Meanwhile, active or former troops are arguing based on their own experiences, which are colored by the situation (high GDP, relatively small army vice industrial armies, very casualty averse public) that we face today.

So, what will a generic soldier carry? Well, technically speaking, there's no such thing. You could come close enough to "generic" for an Azzie border unit intended to server as cannon fodder, or a UCAS unit intended for expeditionary warfare, or a CAS QRF cavalry unit designed to race to the border, recon to find a weak spot, and counterattack into it without significant upper echelon support. Each will be funded and trained differently... and paid differently, too, and that part can't be left out. As several people have hinted here, soldiers that are well paid have a tendency to buy whatever they think will help them out. Ignoring Dragonskin for a minute, look at things like camelbacks; troops bought so many with their own money, that (to my understanding) they've pretty much been adopted as official canteen replacements. So, if you have an army where (like ours today) the privates are making $20K cash (and costing 2-3 times that in all) and sergeants are making over twice that... as long as they think it'll keep them alive, and it isn't strictly outlawed (eg, I don't see UCAS allowing spurs), they're going to spend some of their cash on their own upgrades... and the military may offer them discounts.

Posted by: jmecha Jul 31 2007, 06:08 PM

Basic Training, AIT, and all that other happy horse shit does happen, I never meant to claim that it doesn't....but even Basic Training and AIT don't really cost that much more then soldiers stationed at thier Unit.

I was just trying to show that Skill Soft would be a waste of money, because a soldier's skills can be gained with time which is something soldiers have a whole hell lot of, unless there is a war at hand that is calling for freash bodies.

Mech training and Airborne Training is going to cost more then standard Infantry training, but that is only because the cost of maintaining and fueling the equipment used...but even then the Army would be flying and or driving thoose planes and tanks anyway because not using up your supplies means you get a budget cut every year because you obviously aren't using what was allotted to you the year before.

Take it easy on the get a clue and tossing out the WTFs....I've done my 20 between 2000 and 2005, now some of you may say that's only five years, but I assure it felt like 20.

I wasn't looking to piss anyone off, just trying to say that Skill Softs would be a waste of money on troops who are gonna have nothing but time to train with under experinced trainers.

Posted by: Ravor Jul 31 2007, 06:19 PM

The only thing is, you're assuming that in a bottom-line is king cyberpunk world most organizations are going to allow their "soldiers" to do nothing but train even in peacetime as opposed to finding something to get thier monies worth out of them, like the Desert Wars for the corps, ect...

Posted by: hyzmarca Jul 31 2007, 06:25 PM

The use or sanction of cyberweapons, including spurs and implanted guns, would very much depend on how much the army values readiness and protection against the enemy over protection from their own troops. Sure, it is not uncommon to lock up weapons and ammo to minimize casualties in the event that a soldier snaps and decides to kill everyone on base and there are regulations governing who can carry a weapon where and when. But in a war zone, where danger of attack from The Enemy is greater is far than the danger of a random Private finding his wife getting boned by his Colonel in a supply and acting rashly, the additional combat readiness provided by a cybergun is extremely useful. An implanted weapon is always there, ready to be used. It cannot be lost or taken away. In the event that an enemy attacks a barracks during the night, sleeping soldiers will immediately be able to fight.

When combined with implanted armor, implanted water and nutrient reservoirs, and communications equipment, you have a soldier who can literally fight naked. Today, soldiers must spend precious minutes getting dressed and putting on heavy gear before they can be deployed. With cyberimplants, any unit can be deployed immediatly without wasting time doing things like putting on clothes (identification labels, flags, and insignias can be tattooed on to comply with treaty requirements).

I can certainly imagine the modification of certain cybersystems for more practical use, such as making a wide-blade spur that doubles as an entrenching tool.

The biggest problem with standard-issue skill softs is the inability for soldiers relying on them to use Edge on on those skill tests. It is often better to be lucky than it is to be good.

Posted by: kzt Jul 31 2007, 06:52 PM

Posted by: Spike Jul 31 2007, 07:06 PM

I was actually referring to the crew chiefs and other mechanical types. The Pilots are an entirely different subject.

Posted by: Wakshaani Jul 31 2007, 07:19 PM

Short update via published material.

Aztlan calls 50,000 men under military aegis, including army, navy, and so on, with about half of that being support persons ratehr than in the field with guns.

Aztechnology has about 150,000, probably in a similar split.

Which is, well, backwards from what I remembered.

Weird.

Posted by: Apathy Jul 31 2007, 07:29 PM

I believe that during my time as a tanker the biggest expenses associated with training were the re-supply (fuel, ammo, repair/maintenance) of the vehicles. This led us to spend LOTs of time in simulators shooting at imaginary targets. I would imagine that the improvements in AR would make this training much more popular.

What's the cannon interpretation on how easy it is to learn physical skills through AR simulations?

Posted by: Ravor Jul 31 2007, 07:39 PM

Posted by: Dashifen Jul 31 2007, 08:07 PM

And you don't have to feed/house tutorsofts like you do those pesky living instructors. Probably only the most technical skills or those requiring special expertise (i.e. spotter/sniper teams) would require living instructors, but even a lot of the initial training for those skills might be completed with an AR or VR tutor.

Posted by: FlakJacket Jul 31 2007, 09:05 PM

Posted by: kigmatzomat Jul 31 2007, 10:33 PM

Posted by: Jaid Jul 31 2007, 10:40 PM

Posted by: Buster Jul 31 2007, 10:48 PM

Since governments are very weak in SR, I would think that they would have very little money and would be more concerned with militarized police forces for homeland guard duty and would have a few elite special forces for the overseas stealth work.

If any country needed to muster up a large militia in case of all out ground war, it would be cheaper to just conscript millions of yokels and plug them with skillwires. It would be the cheapest solution and it could be done in less time than basic training.

Posted by: Wakshaani Aug 1 2007, 12:43 AM

RAS override is less to keep your Simsense from controlling you (It can't do that ... that's what Skillwires are for!) and more to keep you from hurting yourself.

If, for example, you've decided to slot in teh latest California Hot, "Buffet Beach", you can kick back and enjoy a party on teh beach, with hula girls, great food, music, drinks, and so on. You can interact, they'll interact with you, and so on. If you don't have your RAS enabled, however, you'll get up to feed grapes to that pretty girl in your sim, but this could very well result in you jabbing your hand at an onrushing taxi. Even "Safe" in your own home, your shins are gonna take a beating and you may well go out a window or wander into the kitchen, aka, "Where lots of pointy things are" ... and you wouldn't even notice the puncture fun, thanks to being barefoot in the evening surf.

Much, MUCH better to keep your RAS off so that your actual body is just slumped in a comfy couch through the whole thing.

In contrast, if you're just slotting "Goth", where you can be morose and depressed in hopes of finding your inner artist, you can keep your RAS off, since you're not interacting with anything inside your head, you're just along for the Personafix ride. This lets you walk around the StufferShack, talking about how melons mark someone as a soulless consumer whore ... until your time's up and you have to buy a new hour of Goth, of course.

Posted by: Fortune Aug 1 2007, 01:04 AM

Nice comparison.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 1 2007, 01:41 AM

i'm confused what that has to do with my point...

my point is that when you move in simsense recordings, your meat also moves. therefore, it stands to reason that simsense training programs (ie tutorsofts) could very well give you muscle memory, contrary to what someone implied earlier (that tutorsofts could be used, but then you'd have to go out and train to develop muscle memory).

after all, if your muscles are indeed receiving impulses and making you move around, you're training them, aren't you? (not sure if RAS would have to be turned off or not. if it can't do it while turned off, it's still cheaper to put you in a rock climbing type harness and hang you a foot off the ground than it is to build an actual training facility for you to go through =P )

Posted by: Wakshaani Aug 1 2007, 02:03 AM

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 1 2007, 03:12 AM

Posted by: Apathy Aug 1 2007, 03:37 AM

The discussion about how TutorSofts work brought up a question that I'm unclear about. In the core book, skill advancement is entirely abstracted: pay your karma (during down time) and get your skill. There's no discussion that I found about any rolls you might have to make to actually learn the skill. However, when I look up the Instruction skill the book says

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 1 2007, 03:51 AM

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 1 2007, 04:03 AM

I think a soldier is going to have a lot of things on the go at once - If he's manning an observation post, he's going to have to:

A) Be keeping a physical eye on the surrounding area (Perception)
B) Co-ordinating his drones who are going to be watching for other OPs so he can kill them, while also looking to accomplish the mission (Some knowledge skills, maybe a skill in the stealth group. I suspect that the drones are going to be running on autopilot, but it's not unreasonable for him to be able to jump in, in which case he's going to need another set of driving skills)
C) Keeping abreast of the intelligence feeds from himself and others so he doesn;t get ambushed and killed, and feeding his own data in (Probably a knowledge skill, tactics)
D) Manning his weapon systems - Including his personal weapon, his anti tank equipment, his anti aircraft and anti drone systems, as well as the weapon systems of possibly up to 10 drones (Two weapon skills and gunnery)
E) Manning the electronic warfare and electronic snooping gear that the OP is using to spy on the other team. While they'd no doubt try to bring in hackers from the rear areas to do it, but if they cannot due to the other teams jamming efforts, he has to do it with the assistance of agents no doubt.
F) Do all the above while remaining undercover, because as soon as someone spots him he's going to get hit by precision guided artillery.

And thats for that single task! Stealth and Perception at maximum levels are essential, as are a huge suite of technical and knowledge skills, before we even get onto the 4 gun skills.

While there are likely to be two guys working on at any given moment in an OP, it might be down to one as the training required makes it harder to get a guy in the field. I'm not to sure how you'd manage all those tasks with in game skills, but it seems to me that a soldier needs to know a lot of stuff, and 'shoot my gun' is right down the list. A 2070 war is going to be network enabled in all sorts of ways, I suspect it's quite reasonable to expect a a single squad of soldiers to be supported by dozens of drones ranging from recon drones, to steel lynx style things, agents and other weaponised systems.

To accommodate that sheer training load, I'd expect the training program would look more like what they do for officers today, ie 3-4 years of training before you become a junior officer in return for a compulsory service agreement that would be very long (7+ years)

However that single guy is highly effective, and could probably kill an entire platoon of meta humans without the same technology. He has access to 3-4 light machine guns just for starters! Totally excluding his recon capability and ability to call back for artillery support if he draws a bead on the other guys.

Posted by: Ravor Aug 1 2007, 04:07 AM

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 1 2007, 04:18 AM

I swear to God I'm going to kick that errata's ass one day.

Posted by: Ravor Aug 1 2007, 04:25 AM

*Chuckles* At least it isn't the fragging FAQ.

Posted by: toturi Aug 1 2007, 04:26 AM

Posted by: Jaid Aug 1 2007, 04:27 AM

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 1 2007, 04:33 AM

Posted by: kzt Aug 1 2007, 05:32 AM

Posted by: toturi Aug 1 2007, 06:25 AM

Posted by: kzt Aug 1 2007, 06:32 AM

Posted by: toturi Aug 1 2007, 07:17 AM

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 1 2007, 10:18 AM

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 1 2007, 10:21 AM

Posted by: Jaid Aug 1 2007, 01:34 PM

Posted by: kzt Aug 1 2007, 03:10 PM

Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 1 2007, 03:14 PM

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 1 2007, 03:23 PM

Not really.
Hitler faced the same enemy as Napoleon: General Winter.
Of course, he had the same friend: Counselor Megalomania...

Those don't mix well.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Aug 1 2007, 03:49 PM

"Russian front not a good idea....Hitler never played Risk when he was a kid...cuz you remember, Risk, that whole eastern European area, you could never hold it...seven extra men at the beginning of every go, but you couldn't f*ckin' hold it...Austral-Asia, that's the one, Austral-Asia...all the purples...get everyone on Papua-New Guinea and just build up, build up..."

Posted by: Spike Aug 1 2007, 04:19 PM

I imagine that Military Drones don't even work on WiFi, rather they receive orders in the field via beam communications, lasers and the like. Not sure where SR stands on the topic, but this type of comm is not susceptable to area wide jamming and it makes the drones hard to hack 'on the fly'. I imagine that they run fairly high end pilot programs with simple, generic, preprogrammed code, and 'swing by' their designated controller every so often for an update/download.

They are used to augment the troops in the field, not replace them.

Networking the battlefield is problematic for many of the same reasons Drones are. Jamming, for one. Two 2070 conventional armies going head to head are going to fill the air with so much noise that only hard lines and couriers are going to be 'reliable' for any length of time.

Posted by: Kingmaker Aug 1 2007, 04:36 PM

Historically, invading Russia from the West has been a Bad Idea. Napoleon lost over 500,000 men invading, and he only fought a few battles. Hitler's invasion was even more catastrophic.

I think that faced with modern airpower/artillery/armor, a poorly equipped human wave would fair poorly.

Posted by: Backgammon Aug 1 2007, 04:39 PM

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 1 2007, 04:46 PM

..of course, MCT has just the deal for people wanting the best of borth worlds...

Posted by: Ravor Aug 1 2007, 04:53 PM

Yeah but how much does a Jarhead cost again?

Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 1 2007, 04:55 PM

With the new cyborg rules, you don't have to choose between the disposability of a drone and the flexibility of a human brain. You can have both. Simply cut out the brains of your soldiers and put them in cheap drones. Require that every single member of your military undergo the procedure and institute a comprehensive forcible conscription program. Universal conscription of all able-brained adults and children above might even be a good idea.

You have all the benefits of a human wave army combined with all the benefits of a SOTA drone army. And think of the huge reduction in your national food consumption if every single citizen of your counrty was a cyborg.

Posted by: mfb Aug 1 2007, 04:56 PM

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Aug 1 2007, 05:02 PM

This is very Halberstammy, but you could put an infant's brain in a jar and raise them as a drone (or fighterjet, or whatever) True, much of it would be VR-simulated, but they couldn't tell the difference; they wouldn't know.

Posted by: Ravor Aug 1 2007, 05:04 PM

Aren't Jarheads in general just the next gen version of Dr H's "kids"?

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Aug 1 2007, 05:06 PM

Yeah. The really Halberstammy bit is the "from birth" part.

Posted by: Shrike30 Aug 1 2007, 05:06 PM

Max Boot's War Made New (a pretty fascinating read if you're into the whole military aspect of the history and philosophy of science) looked at four different "ages" of military advancement in the last 500 years (gunpowder age, first and second industrial age, information age), and the massive differences in effectiveness that an advance could bring, when properly implemented.

Take a look at how Gulf War I played out. Early '90s, you've got the Iraqi military (a pretty well built-up Second Industrial Age army that had been fighting the Iranians for a decade) going up against the coalition, which made extensive use of Information Age tech like precision munitions, satellite recon, GPS systems, stealth aircraft, joint force control, and high-speed mission tasking for artillery/air support (meaning that a target gets hit within minutes or hours of being discovered, not days). Command and control centers were eliminated, ground forces were destroyed without ever bringing their weapons to bear, and coalition casualties numbered under 150, if memory serves.

Look at the "Black Hawk Down" incident... about 100 well trained infantry with body armor, coordinated actions, and some air support were able to survive what essentially amounts to an 18 hour massed militia assault in an urban environment, and while the number of dead (about 20) and wounded (virtually everyone else) were high, they managed to hold out until they could be extracted.

Now, kick this forwards to 2070, where some here are saying the "soviet army" approach is going to be a problem for a modernized force. Think about it for a second:

• Drone weapon systems, hard-wired to their controllers, would allow small infantry teams to cover hundreds of meters of perimeter with a massive amount of firepower, and minimal risk to themselves.
• Augmented soldiers would be able to clear important buildings of conscripts with a minimum of losses, due to their sensor capabilities, increased speed, body armor, and medical technology.
• Secured structures could be kept that way with a minimum number of troops, relying on sensors, drones, and booby traps... or simply levelled from afar, if they can't be held efficiently.
• Networked, drone-controlled artillery and mortars, precision-guided using GPS coordinates or target designators, would allow rapid targeting and destruction of large groups of infantry by a single observer. Observe, designate, order a fire mission, wait for the rounds to transit... less than a minute from discovery to impact.
• Scout units (think USMC scout/sniper teams) could maintain a very low profile (due to only being a couple of guys, and having advanced camoflage tech available to them), while still having at their disposal a ridiculous amount of remotely accessed firepower, and never have to personally fire a shot.
• Militia units untrained in signature discipline (minimizing thermal output, enforcing radio silence, being quiet) would be easy pickings for hunter/killer drone systems sent out in front of the infantry lines to sow havoc and terror.

Posted by: Ravor Aug 1 2007, 05:10 PM

Quick question, exactly what do you mean by;

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 1 2007, 05:49 PM

Why not? Or put it another way, why not deploy stationary smartguns linked to a central network with landlines to hold ground as you take it?

Posted by: Ravor Aug 1 2007, 05:59 PM

Well from personal experience I can say that dragging cords and hoses behind you in a semi-controlled enviroment such as a shop or outdoor workarea is a real pain in the ass, and I don't think I'd recomend trying it in a battlefield.

However with that said, I can easily imagine using hardwires in a basecamp, ect, but not on the front lines.

Posted by: stable_sort Aug 1 2007, 06:06 PM

In poorer nations, I expect that child soldiers are more popular than ever. Orks breed faster, mature faster, and are stronger, tougher, and more likely to be poor. Throw in machetes and guns for the "officers" and you'd have a dirt-cheap fighting force.

A real army would cut through them in no time, but they'd be effective against lightly-armed civilians.

Posted by: Spike Aug 1 2007, 06:13 PM

Posted by: Shrike30 Aug 1 2007, 07:56 PM

Posted by: Shrike30 Aug 1 2007, 07:59 PM

Posted by: Ghostfire Aug 1 2007, 08:04 PM

This conversation has been an interesting read. Without jumping into the 'what do we do with highly trained killers no longer under military discipline' argument, I'd like to point out that no one seems to be making the obvious connection about the need for meat body troops.

All it takes is one EMP weapon, or one concerted broadband jamming effort to reduce all that expensive, wirelessly controlled drone technology to so many dogbot autonomous, not-too-bright units that are no longer under anyone's direct control.

Infantry, in 2070 just like 1070 and 70, are necessary to hold ground and operate in confined, low range environments in conditions that machines simply can't respond to effectively. I can think of tons of ways to make drones ineffective in the 4th edition rule set -- your options are more limited with meat body troops.

edit: Of course, there were several posts pointing this very thing out that I hadn't gotten to. Oh, well. I'm with them. Infantry, for the foreseeable future, is a necessity, IMO.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 1 2007, 08:46 PM

Posted by: Spike Aug 1 2007, 08:48 PM

Actually, Ghost, that has been a running theme of mine in this thread. No matter how awesome all this tech is, a soldier is going to have to be expected to do without it, is going to have to train without it. Even if the commander doesn't think training without NVG's at night is a good idea, when they get out to the feild and half their batteries are dead, or the drones act all erratic, the soldiers that plan on surviving their first combat op are already learning that they better be able to do their job when their equipment... doesn't.

Posted by: Ghostfire Aug 1 2007, 09:03 PM

Posted by: Jaid Aug 1 2007, 09:12 PM

Posted by: Spike Aug 1 2007, 09:36 PM

Posted by: Thyme Lost Aug 1 2007, 09:36 PM

How about just smaller infantry? Instead of a large amount of humans or a large amount of drones, you use both?

You have some human infantry, because an army needs some human infantry, and you have some drone support.

Posted by: Kingmaker Aug 1 2007, 10:20 PM

Drones in 2070 will be used heavily to support infantry and other troops. They cannot replace real soldiers.
For one, even the most durable drones are complex pieces of electronics and machinery. I see a UGV breaking down far more often than a fit infantryman. Drones cannot interact with the local population, thus making occupation hell. Drones are less agile and able to operate in an urban enviroment. Drones aren't going to invent some novel way of using a weapon.

On a side note, does anyone else think that the drones in Shadowrun are extremely cheap?

Posted by: Jaid Aug 1 2007, 10:27 PM

Posted by: Synner667 Aug 1 2007, 10:50 PM

Hmmm..
..Lots of interesting comments, at least some of them from serving or ex services personnel.


I would mention, tho, that current plans [from articles I've been reading recently] already involve widespread use of robotic gun drones, robotic mules to carry equipment, self driving vehicles and army of one networked troopers calling in heavy weapons fire.

Which, from the sound of the comments, aren't even being very much considered for 2070 troops.


My own [non-serviceman] view is that war will be very different in the future..
..Small squads of soldiers, with robotic support and long range, heavy weaponry [orbital strike, anyone ??].

Not sure where fullbody cyborgs, adepts and magicians fit into the military/navy/air force structure..
..But I think that might depend on how common they are.


We might see completely mechanised squads, penal squads, conscripts, zombie squads, deployed smart weapons, vr squads, computer virus weapons..
..But only the future [and your deviantly creative minds] will let us know for certain.


Just my thruppence..

Posted by: kzt Aug 1 2007, 10:56 PM

Posted by: Jaid Aug 1 2007, 11:08 PM

Posted by: Fix-it Aug 1 2007, 11:19 PM

Posted by: Spike Aug 1 2007, 11:21 PM

Yes. Food stores COULD be poisoned. However, the logistics involved with such an operation would be of such complexity and cost that you'd be better off just trying to shoot the poor bastards you are trying to poison. And the complexity grows if you need it to be 'sneaky'.

Or do you think they store all that unconsumed food Outside the defensive perimeter?

Consider the modern MRE. To poison the food a typical soldier consumes during extended feild operations would consist of sneaking into a factory in the home nation of your enemy, somehow tainting the food, bribing food inspectors not to catch your tampering, and then waiting years for that stuff to get rotated through stocks and into the soldiers hands... probably LONG after the war is over.

Alternatively, you could somehow stealthily set up your own 'MRE' factory in your own territory to produce functionally identical packages of food, at great cost, and then somehow swap, again on your enemies defended compounds, several ton pallets of prepackaged food without getting caught. A several million dollar operation of dubious utility just to prove you can poison the food.

Prepared on site food might be a bit easier to poison, but has even more people looking at it, thus more points of failure unless you just want to gack a few guys at the potential cost of one of your own. For that you might as well go the 'suicide bomber' route used in Mosul a few years back. Just as effective, much flashier, and much easier to pull off in the long and short of it.

Posted by: Spike Aug 1 2007, 11:24 PM

Posted by: Shrike30 Aug 1 2007, 11:25 PM

My recollection is that wireless protocols are structured in such a way that you simply need to gather a couple hundred thousand packets to extrapolate the key from them, as it's included in the packet. It's technically "128 bit encryption", but it's not being used to it's full effect, by any means... that would involve key information not being broadcast within the encrypted data.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 1 2007, 11:33 PM

well, first off, i wasn't suggesting trying to poison MREs... you'd basically have to teleport the poison into those things for it to be undetected (or sneak in a packing machine i suppose, to vacuum seal them all again... like you said, if you can get that inside, you may as well sneak in a really big bomb).

the prepared food, on the other hand... i have my doubts that they can check for every single poison known to exist. all it takes is to use a poison with a delayed reaction. for example, today there is a mushroom. in english it's name translates to 'the destroying angel' or something like that. looks like a normal, edible mushroom. tastes like a normal, edible mushroom. there is no known antidote, and it's more or less guaranteed to kill you (takes something like 12-14 hours i think). you would have to specifically test for it to find it.

you think they couldn't bioengineer something a whole lot worse than that in 2070?

Posted by: Synner667 Aug 1 2007, 11:47 PM

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 1 2007, 11:50 PM

Posted by: Vaevictis Aug 1 2007, 11:56 PM

Posted by: kzt Aug 2 2007, 12:15 AM

Posted by: kzt Aug 2 2007, 12:22 AM

Posted by: Apathy Aug 2 2007, 12:37 AM

The model that the US has been pushing for 40+ years is combined arms operations. Tanks, Infantry, Artillery and Air Support all have their individual strengths and weaknesses. But combinations of all of the above allow a force to mitigate their weaknesses without significantly hurting their strengths. While I'm sure that the tools we'll be working with in 2070 will be significantly different than what we have today, I believe that this basic principle will still hold true.

So, I believe that the most effective force will have a combination of Drones/Heavy Armor/Infantry/Paranimals/Spirits/Magic, backed up by Artillery/Air Support/Ritual Magic/Spell Defense, and supported by attached ECM/ECCM. All of the pieces will make important contributions, it's just a question of how much of each type would be necessary.

Drones provide a huge amount more 'bang for the buck', but lack the the flexibility/adaptibility/intelligent decision making of humans (who are generalists by design). They can lay down a hell of a field of fire, but won't be as good at discrimitating friend from foe from neutrals, navigating unexpected terrain, 'winning hearts and minds', working independently if/when commo goes down, etc. If you're in a prepared defensive position with no civilians (Desert Wars) and controled avenues of approach, the drone-to-man ratio might be 20-to-1, but if you're conducting MOUT ops in an occupied civilian city that you need to hold with minimal infrastructure damage, the ratio might only by 1-to-1 or 2-to-1.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 2 2007, 12:45 AM

Posted by: Vaevictis Aug 2 2007, 12:54 AM

Okay. Assuming that the back of the napkin calculations there are true, I'll concede 10-20 years is possibly wrong.

But the most powerful computer permitted by physics taking a billion years? I don't see support for that claim. (Especially since I'm not quite sure that we know exactly what physics permits.)

EDIT: And beyond the notion that we don't know exactly what physics permits, we don't know exactly what math permits. Assume someone shatters the world and proves P=NP; those calculations disintegrate before the might of an algorithm created in a world where P=NP.

(Which, as I've said before, if P=NP, that would explain a lot about why Shadowrun encryption is so weak.)

Posted by: Apathy Aug 2 2007, 12:54 AM

Posted by: Kingmaker Aug 2 2007, 01:02 AM

The US military does indeed have numerous drones slated to come out over the next several decades, but most are for either non-combat or very specialized roles. One is a drone cargo truck, which has the obvious utility of reducing the number of REMFs needed for each soldier. There are also smaller "mule" UGVs for resupplying troops in the field. Pretty much all drones, even the ones design for the purpose of direct combat, are being design to support real troops, not replace them.

Posted by: Thyme Lost Aug 2 2007, 01:31 AM

Posted by: Fix-it Aug 2 2007, 03:30 AM

Posted by: kzt Aug 2 2007, 04:00 AM

Posted by: kzt Aug 2 2007, 04:40 AM

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 2 2007, 06:44 AM

Posted by: Vaevictis Aug 2 2007, 06:59 AM

Posted by: kzt Aug 2 2007, 03:51 PM

In order to have encryption not work it has to be universal. There are at least a dozen different encryption systems out there that are considered highly secure and they work in all sorts of ways.

As this isn't reflected in the rules in other places (as in you can miss with a gun, as real time solutions to complex ballistic system of equations is trivial compared to universally solving encryption, and you can crash you car, as total stability and vehicle control is also trivial in comparison) I don't think this retrocon is plausible.

And I though about somewhere between discovery of fire and printing press, but I didn't want to push the comparison.

Posted by: kigmatzomat Aug 2 2007, 04:25 PM

Posted by: kigmatzomat Aug 2 2007, 04:43 PM

Posted by: Shrike30 Aug 2 2007, 05:01 PM

LMG-toting drones make sense to include with a mechanized infantry group... they're not that large (you could carry several field-stripped ones in the back of a humvee equivalent), they provide surveillance and firepower, and dragging the extra equipment around to turn them into a pretty serious perimeter without exposing your soldiers or vehicles to as much as you would otherwise is easy.

With light infantry units, I can see going more the route of recon and close combat drones (like the iBall), but light infantry units do pass on a lot of the firepower available to the more conventional mechanized units simply to meet their design requirements, and recon is sort of their thing.

Posted by: Dizzman Aug 2 2007, 05:13 PM

<i>How large are the CAS/UCAS/NAN/Atzlan armies in 2070, and how are they armed/equiped/enhanced? Do you picture them as a relatively small, elite force, or are they huge hordes of mostly expendable nobodies?

My take is that they would have large numbers of expendable cannon fodder in the infantry. They would have very little in the way of personal enhancements, but would be very well equiped. (Why spend money implanting a smartlink in PVT Snuffy when it's cheaper to give him smart goggles, and when you can get the goggles back at the end of his service agreement? And if they're going back into the civilian sector, how deadly do you want them to be?)

Cyberware could then be offered to more senior soldiers as re-enlistment encentives. (Re-up for 5 years and we'll throw in your choice of Wired Reflexes or Bone Lacing!)

What do you think the equipment list would look like for a light infantry squad?</i>

Just to riff on the good stuff in this post, you'll probably have some differences based on where the nation is, who they think they're fighting and the resources they have. In general, I imagine the military will rely much more on drones and spirits. Some breakdowns.

Tech Heavy Infantry
Country Characteristics: These countries will have a strong tech base, plenty of money and a expensive, but well educated labor force. Much like the U.S., Japan or U.K. today. For missions that require lots of boots on the ground, they will probably contract out the work. The Imperial Marines would be the best example in Shadowrun.
Terrain: A high reliance on drones, tanks, etc, makes them better suited to rapid deployment in large open areas. They might not have the manpower to hold ground in large urban, mountain and jungle areas where the terrain favors lightly equipped locals who know the terrain.
Average Squad: The fighting force will probably be broken up into squads trained for fighting and tech support squads. The fighting squad is likely made up of one drone rigger with well trained and highly cybered marines supported by multiple drones. The military will probably have a long tail with a lot of technical support making up the bulk of the force.
Key Gear: Milspec armor, Military Grade Comlinks, Helmets with all the best vision and hearing enhancements, Wired 1 or 2 reflexes (Alpha), Bone Lacing (Aluminum or Titanium) (Alpha), Datajack, Control Rigs, Knowledge & Lingua softs, Sleep Regulator, Muscle Aug or Muscle Toner.
Key Skills: At least one member of each squad with good ECCM, Piloting and Technical Skills with other members trained to take over if the lead Rigger falls.

Light/Cheap Infantry
Country Characteristics: Relatively poor countries with lots of cheap, uneducated labor to draft/conscript into the infantry. And a culture that won't or can't object to you treating your infantry like sh*t. Good real world examples would be Russia and China, especially during the cold war. Azatlan would be the prime example in Shadowrun.
Average Squad: A bunch of grunts with combat drugs lead by a non-com with either some technical skills or some basic cyber.
Terrain: Quick deployments and air coverage in open areas would be their Achilles heal - drones, tanks, air support would cut them down. They would be better in jungles, urban areas and mountains where they can flood the zone with cheap troops.
Key Gear: Combat Drugs, Wired 1, Aluminum Bone Lacing, Datajack (for the virtual instruction).
Key Skills: Basic combat skills probably honed quickly by virtual instruction.

Magical Infantry
Country Characteristics: Awakened countries with lots of magical support to draw on. Companies would probably be based around a Amazonia would be the prime example in Shadowrun.
Terrain: Close quarter terrains were good tactics and their innate strength can overcome small numbers (i.e. cities, jungles, etc.).
Average Squad: Probably varies greatly from specialists squads made of adepts, shapeshifters, etc. As a force extender, they might have squads based around a non-com with magical skills (shapeshifter, free spirit, shaman, phys ad) and a number of mundane troops with basic combat gear acting as support. Bound spirits are likely attached to each squad.
Key Gear: Binding materials, foci, fetishes, magical or natural combat drugs.
Key Skills: Magical knowledge and active skills, survival skills, close and ranged combat skills.