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Posted by: Dancer Jul 31 2007, 09:24 AM

Say I want to get past a receptionist, so I hack his datajack/internal commlink/'trode net and subscribe my (hotsim equipped) commlink. I then run a personafix that makes him very trusting and gullible, sell him a story about forgetting my ID code, and cover my electronic traces as I walk away.

In other situations I use other 'fixes. If I'm intimidating someone I make them a spineless coward. If I need to get information out of someone I turn them into a garrolous sot.

1) Is this possible?
2) Could a Personafix include a prohibition against noticing the fact that you've been fixed?
3) What sort of bonus would be applied to social tests after installing a suitable moodchip/personafix on somebody?

Posted by: Blade Jul 31 2007, 09:39 AM

1) It's possible through datajack and trode net but not internal commlink (except if this internal commlink is equipped with a hotsim module).
But most of the time the trode net/datajack will have a signal reduced to the minimum (if they are not directly plugged in the commlink through wires or skinlink). So except if you stand right next to the victim, you won't be able to send the signal directly from your hotsim module to the DNI of the victim. If you hack the victim's commlink first and use it as a relay, the signals will go through the victim's sim module (which may not be hotsim enabled), which will limit the strength of the signal.
You might affect the victim but not as much as with a true BTL signal.

Furthermore the RAS might trigger (I don't know which element take care of that).

2) It was already possible two decades ago, according to the 2XS novel.

3) I guess it'd depends on the quality of the programming of the P-Fix and how it is related to the situation. But I think that with a good P-Fix you can just skip social test and have the guy do and believe what you want him to.

Some people might complain that it's too powerful and game-breaking, but that's just a technological Mindcontrol spell.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 31 2007, 10:06 AM

With the Sim Module now a seperate box, it does not matter where it is.

So once you took control of his brain interface, whatever that may be, you are free to feed any simsense you like.

Posted by: MaxHunter Jul 31 2007, 11:34 AM

I like it! Where's unwired when I need it!!

Cheers,

Evil-minded Max

Posted by: NightmareX Jul 31 2007, 12:24 PM

Posted by: Blade Jul 31 2007, 12:45 PM

As I said, it matters a bit because you need to send the data out from the sim module directly to the DNI of the victim without going through another sim module which would limit the signal.
And connecting directly to a DNI is not so easy.

Posted by: Dancer Jul 31 2007, 01:22 PM

Posted by: Cadmus Jul 31 2007, 01:31 PM

Well we know who's been watching ghost in a shell stand alone complex now don't we

Posted by: Buster Jul 31 2007, 01:44 PM

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 31 2007, 01:48 PM

they wonder what effect a cold-sim (the default) module will have on any potential personafix attack, as thats a BTL, and requires hot-sim.

still, there is a fluff notice in emergence about some people doing a cold-sim tour of the matrix and being killed by a TM attacker. now if thats scaremongering or "truth" thats a different story...

Posted by: Dancer Jul 31 2007, 01:54 PM

Posted by: Buster Jul 31 2007, 01:58 PM

You do need a hot/illegal sim module to play BTLs but that sim module can be sitting in your lap at home since sim modules can be connected remotely to the target's neural interface such as their datajack, trodes, even their cybereyes. (that's assuming you can route a BTL stream thru the matrix)

Posted by: Blade Jul 31 2007, 02:07 PM

I guess you can route a BTL stream through the Matrix because if you couldn't, Black Hammer and other such attacks wouldn't have the same effect on hackers in hotsim.
EDIT : Actually, the BTL signal sent on the Matrix will basically look like "Send (255,255,255) on brain input #3. The Sim module will do the translation in "brain signal")

I guess the only thing that could filter the BTL signal is the unmoded simmodule. That's why I suggest that you have to send the signal directly to the user's DNI because if you route it through his simmodule, it'll filter it.

Posted by: Dancer Jul 31 2007, 02:11 PM

Posted by: Rifleman Jul 31 2007, 02:27 PM

Posted by: Blade Jul 31 2007, 02:31 PM

@Dancer: Maybe I wasn't clear enough, or my English isn't good enough, but that's exactly my point.

Basically you have :
BTL -> Matrix -> Commlink -> Sim Module -> DNI -> Brain

The signal is only modified by the Sim Module which will convert it to signal the DNI can feed to the brain. If it's a hotsim module, the module will convert all the signal. If it's a coldsim module, it will filter the signal.

So if you want to send a BTL signal to the brain of a user of a coldsim module, you'll have to do it that way :
Hacker's commlink -> Hackers hotsim module -> Victim's DNI -> Victim's Brain
The problem is that it's hard to get close enough to the victim's DNI signal (using a drone or a RFID tag might be the best solution).

Posted by: Backgammon Jul 31 2007, 02:43 PM

You could do like they do in GitS and plug your own commlink into the user's datajack, then fry his brain.

Or another really cool way is the Handshake of Death, if both the aggressor and the victim use skinlink (which is likely). Make skin contact, lightning-fast hack yourself into his PAN, have your hotsim-commlink access his DNI device (trode/datajack) and fry his brain.

I don't think you can fry someone's brain from 100km away because, for that trick, you need to have the DNI device receive input from YOUR commlink, not the users. So unsubscribing the DNI from the commlink in order to have it subscribe to yours would instantly cause it to be unable to transmit it's signal over the matrix.

This is going on the assumption that DNI devices only accept 1 source of input. It doesn't state that anywhere, but it makes sense for me (and also acts as a brain-fry limiter, so sounds good to me).

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 31 2007, 02:46 PM

hmm, handshake upload of agent...

Posted by: Dancer Jul 31 2007, 02:51 PM

I think I could fry someone's brain from 100km away, if there was a commlink with a modified sim module in direct wireless range of their DNI device. I connect to their commlink via the matrix, and from there to their datajack. After owning the datajack I subscribe the hot commlink to it. I now have a hot-sim enabled commlink directly connected to their DNI, and can commence brainhacking.

An implanted commlink with an unmodified sim module is probably proof against brainhacking though, there's no way to get an unfiltered signal (unless I can deactivate their sim module in software, then subscribe the modified sim module I planted nearby to their internal commlink. Not sure if this is possible.)

Posted by: Rifleman Jul 31 2007, 02:54 PM

Posted by: NightmareX Jul 31 2007, 02:58 PM

Posted by: Dancer Jul 31 2007, 02:59 PM

Posted by: Dancer Jul 31 2007, 03:02 PM

Posted by: Backgammon Jul 31 2007, 03:06 PM

Here's a thought - is a hotsim a software or hardware modifications...? If it's software, you could modify it on the fly, turning the user's benign sim module into a lethal hotsim modified sim module. That would solve the distance problem.

Posted by: Backgammon Jul 31 2007, 03:06 PM

Posted by: Dancer Jul 31 2007, 03:07 PM

It's hardware. See the sim module description on BBB pg318 (use the Hardware skill to modify a sim module).

Posted by: Blade Jul 31 2007, 03:08 PM

Intra Pan. It doesn't make sense to have it accessible from more than 6m (and 3m should be enough).

Maybe you can get the DNI to connect to the victim's commlink directly without having a simmodule in between and then have your sim module send its data to the victim's commlink, but I don't think that'd work : the messages sent by your simmodule are "brain signal" which the commlink won't understand and will simply drop.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 31 2007, 03:08 PM

It takes time and Hardware Skill.

Posted by: NightmareX Jul 31 2007, 03:13 PM

Posted by: Dancer Jul 31 2007, 03:17 PM

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jul 31 2007, 03:24 PM

In my game, I would rule (for sanity's sake) that the hot-sim module (it doesn't matter whose) has to be in direct contact with the DNI device. Low signal range on their DNI device, skinlink, no wi-fi could all apply varying degrees of protection.
I want tricks like this to be possible, but not trivial. If you allow the hot-sim module to communicate with the DNI through any intermediate device you can do this trick from anywhere on virtually anyone with any kind of DNI, and that's bad, IMO.
So as long as your hot-sim module is talking directly to their DNI, this works. Again, this is my interpretation for my game, not a statement of universal truth.

Combining this with the prevalence of skinlink, plus a bit of '80s japanaphilia, and I would conclude that the threat of skinlink hacking would result in handshakes and any other form of physical contact being quite taboo in the business world, with people bowing instead of shaking hands. It's paranoid. It's japanese. What more could you want?

Posted by: Wakshaani Jul 31 2007, 03:28 PM

Well, there's a few issues. First of all, a Persona Fix of "More gullible guy" is a bit hard to manage. It's one thing to have it broadcast an emotion, such as happyness, which requires a Sim module, or to crank up brain chemsitry (Again, via Sim Module) to give more confidence, but "More gullible" is a pretty nebulous thing. Trying to get someone geared up to record such a track is going to be awfully tricky and it won't really have a market.

Now "Screaming Terror" as a dreamchip, where the person gets drug through roller coatsers, skydiving, shark attacks, whatever, then given a chance to submit or be put back in there? Yeah, there you have a shot. Finding out that Manager Bob has a fear of stinging insects, so you track down a copy of Euphoria's "Against the Hive"? Valid. But "Turn guy into a sucker" is a real challenge.

From there, it's just a matter of getting the program running via a sim, directly contacting the target. If they don't have a mental link, for example a datajack or onboard commlink, you're kind of screwed, since you'll need "The Chair" and a set of trodes to hook him up and run him through for a while ... not really that subtle.

Note that even Psychotropic IC needs this kind of a link ... if you're in AR, sans Sim Module, they can't re-write your brain. In contrast, if you're HotSimming, you could be in for a world of hurt.

Friends don't let friends HotSim.

Posted by: Dancer Jul 31 2007, 03:31 PM

What you say is true for moodchips. But a P-Fix can instill far more subtle and far reaching changes. "While under the chip's influence, the user becomes a different person."

Posted by: Backgammon Jul 31 2007, 03:31 PM

Your reason are good and flaourful, but I think skinlink hacking between businessmen probably isn't a concern, unless there is deep suspicion between the two companies. I mean, you're here to do business, not declare war.

I think it'd be a HUGE thing in the shadows though. Anyone that touches you is probably hacking you.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jul 31 2007, 03:38 PM

If you're going to personafix a receptionist, you might as well do it with a James Bond P-Fix that has you cast as M.

Posted by: Backgammon Jul 31 2007, 03:42 PM

New evil idea of the minute:

What if you simply got the hotsim module within communication contact of the victim (short wireless or skin contact). You could then hack the person's commlink, have it subscribe the hotsim, and then send in via matrix your lethal feed?

It could be fairly easy to disguise your hotsim module as a gift or somthing benign (household object, etc), whatever it takes to get it near the person. You then retreat to the safety of your bunker, execute the hack, subscribe the hostim, and send a lethal signal?

Posted by: Blade Jul 31 2007, 03:45 PM

Just like in the A-Team: "Here take this pen, free gift from our company." with a microphone inside the pen.

Did that a couple of time when I first played SR.

Posted by: NightmareX Jul 31 2007, 03:45 PM

Posted by: NightmareX Jul 31 2007, 03:46 PM

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jul 31 2007, 03:47 PM

Posted by: Blade Jul 31 2007, 03:50 PM

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 31 2007, 03:54 PM

Posted by: Dancer Jul 31 2007, 04:00 PM

I think we're going to need a developed answer to settle this completely. If all a sim module does is turn one digital signal into a different digital signal you don't really need a sim module in your commlink at all, just get the neurocompatible signal directly.

Posted by: Blade Jul 31 2007, 04:08 PM

Except that the commlink will not be able to deal with the neurosignal which isn't a matrix packet.

Example :
Matrix packet: '<Neurosignal> *Encoded Neurosignal* </neurosignal>' This is encoded as a data packet.
After the Simmodule, you get a series of electric signal to be sent to the DNI. You can compare that to sending packet to the Internet through a RTC line: you need a modem to turn the analog signal to numeric signal and vice versa. You're computer won't understand if you directly plug the analog signal.

Furthermore I guess the signal is tailored to the brain of the receiver, so hacking the commlink to have it send something that'll be like the signal you need directly to the DNI with a "software modem" should be a bit tough to manage.

Posted by: Backgammon Jul 31 2007, 04:08 PM

Posted by: neko128 Jul 31 2007, 04:18 PM

Posted by: Dancer Jul 31 2007, 04:20 PM

You wouldn't neccesarily need to be using a sim module but you would need to have some form of DNI available (Datajack, implanted commlink, 'trodes).

Posted by: Buster Jul 31 2007, 04:30 PM

Posted by: Backgammon Jul 31 2007, 04:33 PM

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 31 2007, 04:33 PM

You can't just 'send somebody hot sim'. You need to hack his Comlink for Admin access first.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 31 2007, 04:37 PM

i was under the impression that hot sim comes as much from signal strength as anything else.

so when i think about it, i would expect the sim module to be wired directly to the input (jack, trode, whatever) but not required to be wired directly to a comlink or similar...

Posted by: Rifleman Jul 31 2007, 04:38 PM

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 31 2007, 04:44 PM

it does not say anywhere that a handshake would do, but people are guessing that it can be done, both because its a broadcast medium similar to wireless (you put a signal onto someones skin and everyone in contact with the skin can pick it up) and because handshake based exchange of data have been shown of as close to reality for some time now (hell, microsoft applied for a patent for a skinlink style system some years ago iirc).

think about it, skinlink is nothing more then a very low current version of a stungun or similar. and if you hold the hand of someone thats hit by one of those, your hit yourself.

Posted by: Rifleman Jul 31 2007, 04:49 PM

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 31 2007, 04:53 PM

no it would work on skin alone. thats why i pointed out the stun gun (or for that matter a electic fence).

and data traffic happens very very fast. so if you can win initiative (nice way to calculate speed) and manage to hack in on a single pass, you can get his pan to open up the wireless.

another option is to have a agent on standby that will try to hack its way in when the handshake takes place and then perform some actions if it manages to get transfered.

Posted by: Rifleman Jul 31 2007, 05:02 PM

Posted by: Ravor Jul 31 2007, 05:15 PM

A couple of thoughts after reading this thread:

Hacking someone's commlink wouldn't be enough (Unless they are using an implanted commlink that is.), you'd have to hack the person's Datajack or Trodenet and have that hook up to the sim module you wanted. Personally I don't think that you could do that without it being noticed.


Is it just me or are the rules for Brain Hacking that were in Man and Machine absent from AUG? Are they slated to appear in Unwired?

*Edit*

Oh personally I think hacking someone's skinlink PAN while touching them is possible, but then again in the Shadows I imagine that trying to shake someone's hand or otherwise touching them is a big no-no, not because of the relatively mild risk of skinline hacking (Come on, you've got one or maybe two turns to do your hack without being noticed, it's not that big of a risk.), but because of the risk of ritual links and stealth tags, ect...

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 31 2007, 05:15 PM

Actually, it's a modulation of the EM-field of the body.

Posted by: Backgammon Jul 31 2007, 05:23 PM

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Jul 31 2007, 05:26 PM

A person getting skinlinked hacked might notice a small electrical jolt or buzz or whatever, but unless they knew what the sensation meant, they'd be more likely to put it down to static electricity or something.

Posted by: neko128 Jul 31 2007, 05:27 PM

Posted by: Ravor Jul 31 2007, 05:32 PM

Sure, when your skinlink connects with theirs they may only feel a slight jolt and not figure things out, but they are probably going to smell something fishy when you try to turn a handshake into "let's hold hands'.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 31 2007, 05:42 PM

question is, how long does a handshake last, and how long would it take to on the fly hack the target comlink?

Posted by: Ravor Jul 31 2007, 05:50 PM

I can't speak for other parts of the country/world, but where I live, a handshake lasts just a couple of seconds, and even at jacked AR speeds, I don't think it's reasonable for a Decker to hack into the PAN, make the changes and alter the logs within the space of one combat turn. (Not to mention that it's very possible a "wireless active" message is sent to the user.)

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Jul 31 2007, 05:58 PM

I know that if I were a corporate business-man, with a skinlink, I'd set my commlink up to detect whenever it came into contact with someone else's skinlink. Then with a quick mental command, everytime I shake hands with someone they get my E-card. In fact, I would think that something like this would be pretty standard fare, so that sararimen meeting each other for the first time would expect small data exchanges that pu each other into their social networking management software. This is more than adequate time to upload an agent.

Posted by: Buster Jul 31 2007, 06:37 PM

Posted by: odinson Jul 31 2007, 06:39 PM

Do datajacks actually have wireless capability? I thought the entire point of a datajack was so you could hardwire things directly to your brain. I guess that opens up a whole new can o worms if they are wireless.

Posted by: Ravor Jul 31 2007, 06:42 PM

Sure, datajacks are intra-pan devices so they have ( Signal 0 ) for a reach of 3 meters, plus the hardwired connection, and the ability to be skinlink adapted.

Posted by: Ravor Jul 31 2007, 06:43 PM

Also something to consider is that if you upload an Agent ontp a PAN, you are changing the system load, and that by itself is probably going to get noticed.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 31 2007, 06:50 PM

Posted by: Ravor Jul 31 2007, 06:55 PM

Considering how system load works in the Sixth World I'd say it's alot more unlikely for someone to pass a Responce drop off as "normal system behavior".

Posted by: Backgammon Jul 31 2007, 07:03 PM

Posted by: Backgammon Jul 31 2007, 07:05 PM

Posted by: Ravor Jul 31 2007, 07:09 PM

Umm, unless AUG changed something that I missed, a sim module must be accessed by whatever DNI you've got, whether that is an implanted commlink, trodenet, or datajack, so even by RAW the tactic under discussion is only possible if you are within the ( Signal Rating ) of your target's set of trodes/datajack/implanted commlink.


*Edit*

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 31 2007, 07:14 PM

Sure. But since it's wireless access, you can relay it.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jul 31 2007, 07:14 PM

Posted by: Jaid Jul 31 2007, 07:38 PM

there is a statement somewhere that simsense must be direct or something like that. can't remember offhand the exact wording, or the page number.

in any event, it didn't really clarify what 'direct' means. does it mean simsense has to go through a DNI of some kind? (ie direct meaning "direct neural interface") does it mean there can't be any other devices between the simsense module and the DNI? imo, it certainly doesn't mean it requires a cable (it would have to specifically mention that, imo, since the general rules indicate everything is wireless), though the last time this discussion came up someone insisted that's what it meant.

ultimately, the rules aren't terribly clear on this, i'm afraid. last time it came up, i basically just stopped discussing it and let it sink since it wasn't going anywhere, imo...

Posted by: Ravor Jul 31 2007, 07:46 PM

And whenever the rules aren't clear we have the fluff to examine in order to detremine the intent, and with the exception of Emergance claiming Technomancers have a power which the rules state they don't there isn't any mention of such tactics actual working at all.

Posted by: Jaid Jul 31 2007, 07:57 PM

more or less total silence on a given subject cannot be used to prove much about that subject... other than the fact that we don't know much about it.

(ie, just because it doesn't give specifics as to how possible it is, doesn't mean we can assume it is impossible. or possible for that matter. it just means that we don't really know)

Posted by: Ravor Jul 31 2007, 08:01 PM

I disagree when that something would be "world-changing" I mean IF this tactic worked then as it's been stated, everyone would be using it.

Posted by: Rifleman Jul 31 2007, 08:06 PM

Posted by: Jaid Jul 31 2007, 09:13 PM

this tactic isn't necessarily all that "world changing"

right now, someone can grab a kitchen knife and go kill most average people if they want to. they'll get caught, but that's equally true about some random guy killing someone else via the matrix.

so why doesn't it happen? because you can still get caught. and because for anyone important enough to be worth killing, there will be hefty matrix defenses. which is all that really stops anyone from murdering people in the meat, also... anyone important enough to protect, will be protected.

the only difference is that whereas it takes only a cheap kitchen knife and random flailing to kill someone in the meat (heck, a rusty pipe or a metal bar is just as good, almost), it takes expensive hardware (several months worth of pay, specifically) equally expensive (not to mention extremely illegal) software, and skill to kill someone via the matrix.

which isn't really any significantly worse obstacles than a sniper or other assassin might face in the meat, really. ultimately, given the relatively low cost to protect someone in the matrix (that is, you can get human security someplace in seconds, no matter where they are physically)

matrix assassins should be no more common than normal assassins, and random deaths inflicted via the matrix should be almost unheard of! (probably only from TMs, since it's not exactly a walk in the park for anyone else to get black IC)

Posted by: Dancer Aug 1 2007, 01:29 AM

Posted by: Adarael Aug 1 2007, 01:30 AM

Okay. I'm gonna weigh in here, and I know I'm not an 'official' source, but since this came up a lot in my prior game, I'm gonna tell you how it can be done and how it can't be done.

Page 318, Sim Module Entry: "A sim module must be accessed via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted commlink, etc)." This means that your brain hits sim module before it hits commlink. Regardless of the fact that the sim module is physically attached to the commlink, the sim module is the FIRST thing your DNI signal is processed through, not the commlink.

On Sim Modules
This is how it goes. An implanted commlink is a DNI because it's hard-wired into your brain - therefore the implant takes over the duties of a datajack, assuming the sim module is also implanted. Trodes are specifically the only non-DNI form of access that a sim module can have. This means that as signals pass from the great god of the matrix to the user's commlink, they are then interpreted by the sim module and sent to your brain. The analogy of the modem is almost correct but not quite - modem is to sim module as computer is to brain:
Matrix --> User's Commlink --> Sim Module --> Brain.
The module is that which translates the digital data of the matrix for your brain. Not for your commlink. That's why the module has to set directly between your gray matter and anything else.

On Hot/Cold Sim
'So what!' you say, 'Let's just hot-wire somebody's datajack wirelessly and get that bad boy a good ol' brainfry!' Good plan, but no cigar. Not yet, anyway. So you wanna connect your sim module to them, such that they can get black IC'd from the comfort of their own living room. You're going to run into two problems really quick:
1) You have to get it connected to their DNI. How to do this has been adequately described, with the exception of one error, which I'll deal with in the DNI section below.
2) You have to override their own sim module, if it's not re-wired for hot sim.
Why is this? Well, sim 'strength' is measured by the 'delta levels' of the recording (see Shadowbeat, Matrix 2.0, and probably forthcoming 4th edition releases). The higher the delta levels, the stronger the sensation. BTLs are literally better than life because they run the delta levels for sensory input above what the brain is capable of producing on its own. Hot sim is the same way, which is why you're faster, more alive, and it's possible to get addicted. It's not that the hot sim modules have an amplifier, but rather than ordinary sim modules have safety cutoffs in place via hardware buffers. Black IC, P-Fix chips, all that good stuff - they rely on going over the cutoffs to affect the user.
So even if you rig your hot sim module to the target's DNI, as long as their own sim module is in the loop (which it would have to, if your attack is inbound through their commlink) the black IC signal will get cut. It'll either get cut by their sim module before it hits yours, and the signal will already be dampened, or it'll get through yours only to be rendered 'ordinary' (albeit confusing) by their module. You need to remove their sim module from the equation entirely in order to have hot sim access their brain. Unless they're running a modified module, in which case you pretty much just have to spoof it into running in hot mode.

Fact 1: BTLs and other chips don't need sim modules for the same reason emulators don't need hardware: the signal they output is already in the form the human brain can process. The sim module is built right onto the chip. So theoretically, a P-Fix chip doesn't need a sim module on the target to work, as long as it's being directly connected by DNI. Unfortunately, if you send the P-Fix signal over the 'net it does, because it has to get translated into the matrix protocols and back out again.

That said, my personal (and in no way official) addendum is this: there's no way someone who's running hot sim all of a sudden would fail to notice it. It's just too raw, too alive, and too much like railing a line of molten aluminum.

DNI And You
'Okay' goes the next argument, 'But I can wirelessly subscribe my module to their DNI - be it datajack, internal commlink, or whatever - and then hack their sim module to turn off and give control to my own.' A good bet. But harder than you might think. This isn't explicitly stated in the rules, but logic dictates this is the case: datajacks don't usually pick up wireless data. Why is this?
The description of a datajack explicitly states that it is used to interface with data via a cable. It's not going to be used by the 'average' user, since they have no need of full VR. Any user who DOES use full VR, however, will be using the cable for the same reason you would:
1) Anything you'd want to access wirelessly is accessed through your commlink, not your datajack. So it's not like you need to have your bare brain exposed to all those chips - you can just dump 'em into your head through the commlink. That's why the commlink is the hub of your PAN and not your datajack.
2) Most objects are totally incapable of interacting with your datajack without some kind of interpretation device. It's all well and good to quote that everything is wireless - it is - but that doesn't mean it's all using the same language. You can't wirelessly jack straight into your coffee cup and expect it to react to mental signals without the auspices of a sim module. Same with a doctor's CyberSurgeon9000+ in an ER. You have to have an object do some kind of interpretation, and that's the sim module, and usually also a commlink.
3) So you don't like cables. Buy a skinlink. They're cheap, and they cut out that problem of picking up static in your wireless datajack and making you taste lint and see spots. (Can you imagine what WiFi static would FEEL like, going directly to your brain?)
4) In "The Wireless World" in SR4 (p. 304) it DOES say GMs have the final say on what's wireless and what isn't. But it also says that 'As a rule, assume that any
gear item that is electronic or mechanical has a wireless-enabled computer in it.' While this is surely the case with DNIs, that doesn't mean that HAVING a wireless computer is the same as giving full functionality to the wireless world. In the example of the the jacket with a wireless computer, the computer wouldn't give some snarky bastard the ability to zip it up and unzip it, unless you bough the jacket from Sharper Image. It'd just be a waste of money for the manufacturer - the draw wouldn't great enough to incorporate that kind of computer control.
5) Even if we assume datajacks have total wireless functionality rather than simple wireless diagnostics, wifi can be turned off with a simple command. It can't be turned back on except for manually. That means any company worth its' salt would require employees to turn off such a 'bare brains' security risk while on company property. Consider it like this: you might say that most people won't think about it because of convenience. It's also convenient not to tie my shoes, but after you watch someone trip on their shoelace, don't you make sure yours are still tied?

Users in 2070 aren't the same class of idiots we have today. The wireless matrix is everywhere, in everything, and they're gonna think twice about baring gray matter to unexpected IC...if for no other reason than they don't wanna get VR bombed by CIALIS NOW sensory ads in bad parts of town.
No.
These users are a different class of idiot. Their idiocy is that they think their security is good enough...not that security isn't an issue.

Posted by: Dancer Aug 1 2007, 02:16 AM

Excellent points. I think that you are right.

Therefore, I think, I can substitute my own sim module if I can bring it within direct connection distance of their DNI device (around 100m for an implanted commlink and 3m for datajack/trodes). I also need to own their system with considerable thoroughness, to deactivate their current sim module and potentially change them from skinlink to wireless (if they've skinlinked their datajack to their commlink I can hack their commlink, get access to their datajack, hack that, and set it to wireless).

Not easy, but possible. Does my understanding accord with yours?

Posted by: Fortune Aug 1 2007, 02:41 AM

How exactly do you deactivate/disable the piece of hardware that is the SIM Module wirelessly while it is in use?

Posted by: Dancer Aug 1 2007, 02:44 AM

Posted by: Fortune Aug 1 2007, 02:48 AM

AR is Simsense! While you don't need a Sim Module to use the Matrix via AR, you would still need one to get emotional feedback (which is available in AR).

Posted by: Adarael Aug 1 2007, 02:50 AM

Yeah, Dancer. That's pretty much the way I scan it. And as to how you might dump it when it's in use, Fortune... Dancer's also right that it's not going to be operating if you're not in full VR. And even if you are, you could - if you were fast enough - swap their sim module for yours, and it'd dump them into AR for a second (and they'd know what'd happened if they were sharp). But you could theoretically hit them with the IC if you got the drop on them.

Posted by: Ravor Aug 1 2007, 03:58 AM

Umm, you are mistaken about this not being a "world changing" tactic, it is at least as big as Ritual Sorcery is, perhaps even bigger considering that almost everyone gets their AR fix through sim-sense as well and thus through their sim-module and this tactic isn't limited to less then 1% of the population like magic is.

As for datajacks, remember that by default everything comes with wireless, and if datajacks were an exception then it would have been spelled out there as the description of datalocks shows us.

Posted by: Dancer Aug 1 2007, 04:03 AM

But considering a datajack needs to connect to your PAN to do anything useful there's no reason for it to have a signal of more than 0.

To brainhack somebody they either need to be using a hot sim module by default (small portion of the population), or you need to be able to physically insert one into their local space. Whereas ritual sorcery requires nothing, it hits them no matter where they are.

Posted by: Ravor Aug 1 2007, 04:11 AM

I totally agree with everything you just said Dancer, datajacks have ( Signal 0 ), and you can only brainhack someone who is using hot sim-module conected to their datajack/trodes/implanted commlink.

The problem is that people are argueing that you can hack someone's PAN and then use wireless relays to connect your sim-module to their datajack/ect and then fry their brain with Black Hammer from anywhere in the world and yet this wouldn't be world changing in the least because anyone can stab someone to death with a kitchen knife.

Posted by: Xenith Aug 1 2007, 04:20 AM

Had you played some Shadowrun Missions (referring to Through a Rose Colored Display Link), you'd know that the whole BTL mind control thing has already been done and is possible (apparently) in game to a variety of targets (mostly stupid/sloppy/lazy ones). There are simply no rules for it, yet. So use your best judgment.

Posted by: Ravor Aug 1 2007, 04:28 AM

Yeah, I also remember reading something about a "truly random" random number generator as well in one of the SR Missions, so I don't put that much stock in them even though in general I enjoy reading and mining them for ideas.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 1 2007, 04:33 AM

Look, IF you can override a user's own sim-module, and put a hot-sim module with range of their (signal 0) datajack in order to fry their brain, then why can't you get a repeater within range of their (signal 0) datajack, and then pipe the hot-sim feed through the repeater?

And if you CAN pipe the hot-sim through the repeater, why can't you use the cellular network that's already in place and almost always is within range of the targets datajack?

if you can do it at all, you can do it remotely.

So in order to prevent brainhacking the world from home, there are two possibilities: either the datajack does not possess wireless functionality (and thusly all incoming traffic is routed through the commlink and it's cold-sim module), OR the datajack is subscribed to the commlink and only accepts signals from it (with similar results) That last one means your datajack counts toward your commlink's subscription limit (at least when wirelessly enabled), and could be tricked with a spoof command.

So it would be locate the datajack's signal, spoof the datajack to accept your link (chance to be noticed), Hack the Datajack (chance to be noticed), Upload the p-fix/hit them with black IC. Non-trivial.

And anyone who cares a modicum about security could turn off their datajack's wireless capability. Then all traffic HAS to be routed through their own sim module, no way around it. Or they could go the way my paraniod hacker did, and get senseware for all 5 senses and leave the sim-module out of it.

Here's my question. If a person has a sim moduel modified for hot-sim, but it's currently in cold-sim mode, could you spoof it to switch it to hot sim for them?

Posted by: Jaid Aug 1 2007, 04:43 AM

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 1 2007, 04:55 AM

So shadowrunners should know better, fool, and kids who experiment with BTLs probably leave their asses wide open.

I wonder if behind every incident of a matrix entity killing tourists is some beetlehead who left their module in hot-sim mode.

Posted by: Ravor Aug 1 2007, 04:59 AM

I disagree PlatonicPimp, because if it were really so easy to run sim-sense data through a sim-module and then relay it through node after node into someone's DNI device then why aren't sim-modules built into wireless routers already, effectively forcing everyone using them into either cold or hot sim?

Hell if that's the case then why do we even need a sim-module at all? Instead of using sim-sense why not transmit everything in DNI capable signals?

Basically what I'm trying to say is that it's not that unreasonable to look at the description of a sim-module and read the bit about being accessed through a DNI Device as meaning it has to be accessed directly, you can't just route the translated neural signals through relays that aren't designed to handle them.

But then again, unless an author speaks up we'll have to wait until Unwired to find out who is and isn't right, and I look at the fluff and wonder why isn't Ritual Sorcery for Deckers ever discussed if the tactic works across the world.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 1 2007, 09:40 AM

Posted by: NightmareX Aug 1 2007, 09:53 AM

Posted by: Blade Aug 1 2007, 10:06 AM

Let's take your comparison with the AVI file.

Let's compare the brain with a TV, the SimModule will be the TV-Out part of your graphic card. Your computer (commlink) receives data from the internet (Matrix) through an ethernet cable.

What you will do is get the streaming AVI file and play it on the computer, the graphic card will convert the data so that it can be displayed on your TV. Good.

Now let's say you just send directly TV-Signal on your computer (for example you hack together a composite->ethernet cable). Your computer will receive strange data from the ethernet cable, which it won't understand and will ignore. If you want your computer to be able to send that directly to the TV-Out you'll have to code drivers by yourself, and it won't be easy. I'm not even sure that the hardware in itself will be able to support it.

So I seriously doubt you can route a decoded brain signal through the Matrix just like you can't send a standard TV Signal on the Internet without passing it through all the layers.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 1 2007, 10:15 AM

But you can tunnel it.

Posted by: Blade Aug 1 2007, 10:17 AM

If both are compatible. If you have a numeric input and an analogic output, you can try to tunnel it but the signal you'll get won't be the original signal. Even if both are numeric but one is -5V,+5V and the other is -10V/+10V it won't work.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 1 2007, 10:21 AM

If. And even then, doing so is a technicality, most of the time.
But the Sim Module hooks up with the brain interface with the exact same layer and protocols everything else is using.

Posted by: Blade Aug 1 2007, 12:20 PM

How do you know?

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 1 2007, 01:32 PM

Because there is no other Interface.

Posted by: Blade Aug 1 2007, 01:50 PM

How? Why?

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 1 2007, 01:54 PM

A sim module connects to a (nano) trode net with the standard WiFi interface by RAW.

That's all there is. Especially for the nano version.

Posted by: Blade Aug 1 2007, 02:03 PM

Excuse my skepticism but do you have a exact page reference?

Posted by: Ravor Aug 1 2007, 02:56 PM

Ok, I see what you are getting at, but there isn't anything that I've found stating that trodes and other DNI devices don't need something on the hardware side of things to accept a sim-module's translated neural data. Granted there's nothing saying there is either, but there has to be something blocking Ritual Sorcery for Deckers or it would have appeared in the fluff at some point because it is BIG.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 1 2007, 03:12 PM

Posted by: Blade Aug 1 2007, 03:18 PM

Why have the SimModule as a physical component then?

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 1 2007, 03:19 PM

we may never know...

Posted by: Adarael Aug 1 2007, 04:41 PM

Same reason you have a graphics card rather than software to do it for you. It's faster and more efficient, and requires less processing power outa the CPU.

Also, because many users don't actually need a sim module for what they're doing. Despite Fortune making commentary about emotive tracks in AR - and yes, they are POSSIBLE - such VR tracks in AR are SPECIFICALLY stated as being very rare.

So we can assume the average user just doesn't need that level of functionality.

Posted by: Backgammon Aug 1 2007, 04:44 PM

I'm fuzzy on one aspect - do you need a sim module to command your commlink via mental commands, or just trodes? What do you need to stop waiving your hands in the air like a retard to operate your AR?

Posted by: Adarael Aug 1 2007, 04:49 PM

Yes, you'd need a sim module to give mental commands. The sim module is what translates the 'think speak' into 'machine speak'.

Posted by: Ravor Aug 1 2007, 04:51 PM

Posted by: Buster Aug 1 2007, 05:04 PM

Posted by: Ravor Aug 1 2007, 05:17 PM

Umm, if you don't need a sim-module to issue mental commands to your non-implanted gear then you don't need one to use AR either, you can just use your brain instead of a keyboard and mouse to adjust the volume, and browse the Matrix.

Posted by: Buster Aug 1 2007, 05:28 PM

Yeah, now that I think it about it, it is confusing. Anyone have any page numbers or FAQ/errata links?

Is a sim module ONLY good for experiencing sim like full VR matrix running or VR games or hot sim for BTL?

Posted by: neko128 Aug 1 2007, 08:29 PM

My understanding is that a Sim Module is only necessary for converting incoming data into sensory information for your nervous system.

You can issue commands to any device that you have access to through a DNI.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Aug 1 2007, 08:33 PM

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Aug 1 2007, 11:32 PM

Also, part of the confusion about whether a sim module is necessary for AR is because AR is a pretty broad and vague category of signals. Most AR is not simsense and does not require a sim module. Video overlays and audio overlays over your existing senses do not require ASIST signals and so you don't need a sim module. Not even the haptic feedback requires ASIST. So, no sim module necessary, even spirits can use it.

Some AR does, however, also carries a limited ASIST signal, like an emotive track. To utilize this "high-definition" AR, you'd need a sim module. VR is entirely ASIST signal, so you'd need a sim module for that also.

Posted by: Fortune Aug 1 2007, 11:51 PM

So, would any person in 2070 really need a Sim Module, other than to actually access VR?

Posted by: Jaid Aug 1 2007, 11:56 PM

Posted by: Thyme Lost Aug 2 2007, 12:29 AM

Posted by: Jaid Aug 2 2007, 01:16 AM

Posted by: Fortune Aug 2 2007, 01:20 AM

So, if a person is already accessing AR via DNI, but not through a Sim Module, he would still be able to manipulate whatever he needed around him?

Posted by: Jaid Aug 2 2007, 01:40 AM

Posted by: neko128 Aug 2 2007, 01:53 AM

How many people use sense-links beyond audio and visual, though? And those can be handled with a pair of intelligent sunglasses connected into your commlink.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Aug 2 2007, 02:22 AM

Posted by: Fortune Aug 2 2007, 02:25 AM

Posted by: Jaid Aug 2 2007, 02:26 AM

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Aug 2 2007, 02:31 AM

Posted by: Jaid Aug 2 2007, 02:33 AM

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Aug 2 2007, 02:34 AM

Posted by: Jaid Aug 2 2007, 02:37 AM

Posted by: Buster Aug 2 2007, 02:38 AM

My updated AR, VR, and Sim FAQ thread explains things (now with page numbers!).
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=18512

Posted by: Fortune Aug 2 2007, 02:42 AM

Posted by: Fortune Aug 2 2007, 02:43 AM

Posted by: Jaid Aug 2 2007, 02:43 AM

Posted by: Fortune Aug 2 2007, 02:46 AM

Posted by: Jaid Aug 2 2007, 02:49 AM

Posted by: Jaid Aug 2 2007, 02:50 AM

Posted by: Dancer Aug 2 2007, 04:42 AM

If all you want to do is kill someone, you don't even need Hot Sim. Black Hammer does Stun damage against people in cold sim. But on pg231 it specifically notes that Black Hammer can overflow the stun damage track into physical. Since BH does physical damage directly against hot-sim users, this clearly indicates that the stun damage that cold sim users suffer can overflow, and kill them.

Assassinating someone via the matrix:
1) Locate their system
2) 0wnz0r it.
3) Log them into their local node
4) Attack their persona using Black Hammer. You'll need about 2 strikes to knock them out, and other two to kill them. A Hot-Sim hacker with a Simsense Booster can do this in one combat round.
5) Delete all evidence of your presence. In fact, set their commlink to continously overwrite everything.
6) Cover your tracks

Posted by: Buster Aug 2 2007, 05:26 AM

I addition to non-neural sim you can see AR with the AR switch on your sim module. See my FAQ thread (or the actual book) for details.

Posted by: Fortune Aug 2 2007, 06:45 AM

Don't worry. I've been watching that thread with great interest.

Posted by: Buster Aug 2 2007, 12:07 PM

Cool, if you see anything you want to add, let me know and I'll add it right away.

Posted by: Adarael Aug 2 2007, 06:34 PM

Sparky IC. I want to add Sparky IC.

Oh, you meant something there were rules for, huh?
Damn.

Posted by: Buster Aug 3 2007, 02:30 AM

Ok, just for you I'll add Sparky IC to the rules once I own SR5. I think I'm next in line to buy the Shadowrun franchise after Catalyst gets bored with it, so I'm saving my pennies. I'm not sure how the Shadowrun intellectual property marketplace works, but I'm pretty sure it's on a bimonthly rotation, so you won't have to wait long. Once I have some fine henchmen like Synner and Frank working for me, my overly circuitous plot to take over the world will be one quarter complete. Tell you what, after I've owned the Shadowrun franchise for a couple of months, I'll sell it to you for a fair price...say, a nice ham sandwich?

Posted by: Ravor Aug 3 2007, 04:42 AM

Hell, I'll buy you a sandwich and a soda.

Posted by: WeaverMount Aug 4 2007, 11:53 PM

Ok Question: what happens when you have more than one DNI and or how broken is Ares S-III Super Squirt + Nanopaste trodes in the context of this conversation?

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 4 2007, 11:55 PM

Multiple DNIs are simply that; multiple ways to interact with your electronics directly. It's like having two plugs instead of one.

Not sure what you plan to do with the Super Squirt idea. All you'd be doing is giving your target another means to interact with things. You don't get any connection to them through it. You'd need to, like, suction-cup a commlink with wireless enabled and a skinlink onto their forehead or something in order to do that, assuming they had their own wireless connectivity disabled.

Posted by: Buster Aug 5 2007, 12:13 AM

You could Super Squirt an adhesive gel containing microscopic RFIDs. Turns the target's skinlinks into wireless links with one squirt.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 5 2007, 12:17 AM

You'd have to hit a device with a skinlink on it, wouldn't you? Pretty sure RFIDs don't have them incorporated into them, though they apparently have a Capacity (which seems odd that a "microscopic" item as you described can hold one-third the amount of sensors a dedicated handheld-sized device can).

Posted by: Buster Aug 5 2007, 12:27 AM

You'd just have to hit their skin to access their skinlink. And you can add skinlinks to RFIDs.

You certainly don't have to worry about game balance here, even if you were an uberhacker, it'd still be easier to just squirt the guy with poison.

Maybe Palming skill would be useful in getting a skinlinked RFID on the guy without him noticing.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 5 2007, 12:32 AM

I'm more concerned with your assumption that an RFID tag is small enough to be used in that fashion than anything else. And if they are "microscopic," I'd have serious concerns about allowing a Skinlink accessory on them, let alone having a Capacity of 1 which they're clearly described as having.

To me, that means they're the size of a micro-drone. Small, but not that small. And certainly not small enough to shoot out of a Squirt Gun.

Posted by: Ravor Aug 5 2007, 01:11 AM

Although I wouldn't allow you to "squirt" a RFID Tag on anyone, I personally don't have a problem with using palming to slip it onto a person. But then again I allow skinlinks to work through normal thin clothing as well so it wouldn't have to be oin contact with actual skin either.

Posted by: Jaid Aug 5 2007, 01:35 AM

Posted by: WeaverMount Aug 5 2007, 01:46 AM

What I'm getting off this thread is that if you have a hotsim module that you control (by hacking theirs or connecting yours) with the range of the signal(0) trodes, your can kick them over into hotsim VR where they can't move, and just get hit with blackout w/o biofeedback until dead or unconscious. While they can test down the damage, they can't dodge the hits or request help so they are instantly disabled and down in 3-6 seconds.

So, the Squirt-Trode Combo could be an easily concealable, subsonic and thus totally silencable. Now the scary part is that if you surprise them they give no dodge, and no resistance to being paralyzed by VR. If you can get 1 hit on the attack roll they are out, period. No drain, concealable, mundane, silent, instant 1 hit KO.

Posted by: Wakshaani Aug 5 2007, 02:03 AM

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 5 2007, 02:22 AM

Posted by: WeaverMount Aug 5 2007, 03:17 AM

ok, could you rig a hot sim module that was hardwired always on, always paralyzing hot sim VR, and always running blackout on the users. The blackout style "BTL" might even need to be some kind of firmware. But are those specific mods possible, and could you "give" someone control of that device by applying a new external DNI?

BTW @Wakshaani: this thread ruled out "Ritual-Sorcery Like Bombs" pages ago

Posted by: Dancer Aug 5 2007, 02:32 PM

Posted by: Ravor Aug 5 2007, 04:13 PM

Slight correction, they won't know that you've hacked their PAN unless they can beat your Stealth OR you start blizting the system by doing stuff like changing program loads, subscribing new devices, ect, you know, all of the kind of things that a Decker would have to do in order to make this trick actually work.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 5 2007, 04:46 PM

OK, that totally depends on the target's attention and tech savvy. How many computer users today don't relly notice when their system slows down from malware? Or they notice the slowdown a little, but they don't grok why? How many people say, "oh, my operating system is getting old, that's why it's slow, better go buy the newest one" as if code just degraded with time or something? In my game, the target of such a hack would have to make a computer test (1) to notice that their system load has changed, and they'd only get that if some part of their attention was given to the matrix (they'd have to attempt a matrix action.) Sammy Mc-Samurai might not notice in the middle of a firefight, and Suzy Skelec-Atari would probably put the delay down to increased call load or standard systems maintainence.

Posted by: Ravor Aug 5 2007, 06:00 PM

To each their own, I figure that operating systems have advanced enough along with computer savvy that such a test isn't necessary, I've found that it goes along way to keeping Deckers from ruling the world.

Posted by: Adarael Aug 5 2007, 06:12 PM

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 5 2007, 08:17 PM

Posted by: Dancer Aug 6 2007, 09:48 AM

[QUOTE=Doctor Funkenstein,Aug 5 2007, 08:17 PM] [QUOTE=Dancer,Aug 5 2007, 08:32 AM]Walking up to someone, slapping a skinlinked commlink onto them, having that commlink connect to their PAN, then hacking into that commlink and thus their PAN is nota textbook case. Especially doing so before they realize "hey whoa, I have a new device hooked up." [/QUOTE]
Why would I do that? They've got a commlink (everybody does), and it's already linked into their (skinlink) PAN. Their commlink has wireless access or its useless, so I wirelessly take it over and route through it to the rest of their PAN, which I also take over, and activate the wireless functionality of. I still need to get a sim module within 3m of them if I want to use hot sim, but that's a lot easier than attaching a commlink to them. And if I don't want to do that there's still some pretty nice (nasty) things I can do with cold sim.