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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ No hard limits on cash, set limits to soul
Posted by: Cynic project Aug 1 2007, 10:36 PM
When will the silly twits who write shadowrun get this.
Now,I do not have the number in front of my but from what I gather cyberware gets hosed yet again. Now, I am not going to quote the numbers, because that is not the point.
Wired is old tech,and as such takes a lot of essance, but is cheep.That is hard pill to swallow but one that you can. Synaptic boosters is newer and has less impact on your essence but costs more money....Move by wire systems are newer than boosters and cost less money and more essence?
But wait Moved by wire is bigger...It is bigger to the point that nearly anyone who could get them could not take full advantage of them.
Why?
Posted by: Synner Aug 1 2007, 10:55 PM
| QUOTE (Cynic project @ Aug 1 2007, 10:36 PM) |
| When will the silly twits who write shadowrun get this. Now,I do not have the number in front of my but from what I gather cyberware gets hosed yet again. Now, I am not going to quote the numbers, because that is not the point. Wired is old tech,and as such takes a lot of essance, but is cheep.That is hard pill to swallow but one that you can. Synaptic boosters is newer and has less impact on your essence but costs more money....Move by wire systems are newer than boosters and cost less money and more essence? But wait Moved by wire is bigger...It is bigger to the point that nearly anyone who could get them could not take full advantage of them. Why? |
I know there's a question in there. Possibly more than one. Despite the question marks, I'm just not sure what it is. Maybe part of it is rhetorical. Could you try phrasing your points differently? Some of the stuff you're saying just doesn't add up (for instance: move-by-wire systems have been around for ages, they're definitely not newer than boosters - though their mechanics have changed from SR3).
Posted by: mfb Aug 1 2007, 11:01 PM
i'm going to streamline what Synner just said: "huh?"
Posted by: Fortune Aug 1 2007, 11:14 PM
| QUOTE |
| But wait Moved by wire is bigger...It is bigger to the point that nearly anyone who could get them could not take full advantage of them. |
What? You've never heard of PCs with a Reaction of 1?
Posted by: Dissonance Aug 1 2007, 11:17 PM
I figure he's asking why Move By Wire costs more than everything else in terms of both essence and money.
My answer? MBW is typically the kind of thing that players, y'know, don't really get. It's the kind of thing you put on that big scary CZ, because up until recently, it used to give you brain cancer and a whole other set of awesome abilities.
It's basically just the kind of top-tier reaction-ware that you're likely never going to get unless you play the same character for a solid year or two, or something.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Aug 1 2007, 11:23 PM
| QUOTE (Cynic project) |
| It is bigger to the point that nearly anyone who could get them could not take full advantage of them. |
Unnatural Vigor.
Exceptional Attribute & Genetic Optimization.
Posted by: FrankTrollman Aug 1 2007, 11:27 PM
I don't see it as cyberware getting hosed. Move by Wire is simply an object which is virtually useless to high end shadowrunner street samurai (and due to availability, therefore virtually useless to all shadowrunners). In the long run, and with all resources going to improving the individual, you'd always want to go with Synaptic Boosters, Reaction Enhancers, Skill Wires, and Synthacardiums as separate units.
But for the corporations, for whom additional manpower can be had by saying "let's put some more manpower on this problem", the device makes sense. It's like Kamikaze - street sam don't normally use it but it's a reasonable 
cost to pump a competent normal up to street samurai specs.
---
That being said, I am fairly disappointed with it. Having an item whose singular purpose is to reconcile the existence of NPCs of appropriate threat levels with the world is not what people think of when they think "Move by Wire". Or at least it wasn't in previous editions.
In previous editions, the high end MbW was essentially unavailable to PCs and existed as a plot device explanation for bringing out the occassional "boss monster". Now that players can finally get one themselves it turns out that the tech curve has passed it by and it's still an NPC only item.
But nothing's stopping you from being the super street sam who rolls 18 dice on a full defense against ranged attacks. It's actually quite easy to attain that state. So printing new items that fill any purpose in the world that don't happen to go into the high-end street samurai build doesn't strike me as a nerf of anything. Once you've got everything you need to be a bad-ass, what difference does it make if they publish a hundred or a thousand items that you don't use?
If they printed some shitty guns in Arsenal, would it in any way damage your ability to gun down force 10 spirits with a Ranger Arms from the basic book? Or would it simply enrich the game world to see what the child soldiers in the Central African Empire were bringing to the party?
-Frank
Posted by: Squinky Aug 1 2007, 11:37 PM
Wow, I actually loved the new move by wires, and really considered having my sammy upgrade to them asap.
Currently he has wired reflexes one, skillwires 2, and some reaction enhancers....So he is going to trade those all in and upgrade to Move by Wire 2 and get better reaction, better skillwires, and a sweet dodge bonus on top of the standard ips.... for about the same essence as before....It's a sweet deal to me.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 1 2007, 11:38 PM
I think he's confused as to why Move-By-Wires 3 costs less than a Synaptic Booster 3, yet provides more bang for your buck at the cost of a grotequesqly high Essence requirement. I think.
If so, the answer is simple. Move-By-Wires 3 really isn't cheaper because of the Essence cost. Same goes for Wired Reflexes, really, with MBW simply being an upgrade to WR (granting only +1 Reaction, +1 Dodge, and Skillwires per level over WR; and if you take that retarded FAQ answer as gospel, it can also take advantage of Reaction Enhancers while WR cannot).
Why isn't it cheaper? Because in order to install it to a point where it leaves you with enough Essence for other things, you have to get it at at least beta grade if not delta. Throw in the secondary costs for Biocompatibility: Cyber and Adapsin, and it quickly escalates to a ridiculous level. At Beta grade and with Adapsin treatment beforehand, it costs you 3.00 Essence plus the Adapsin cost. Which still makes it more than twice as expensive Essence-wise as a Synaptic Booster 3, but friendly enough that you can cram a ton of other things in. Financially, however, it's now way more expensive than a SB is. To the tune of 700,000+ nuyen.
Which, I think, fits in with the philosophy the original poster was concerned about. That SOTA cyberware should be more expensive than bioware that's been around for a while. (I'm unsure because he also seems concerned that cyberware should be cheaper than bioware at all times, too. /boggle)
EDIT: The only other thing I can think he may be trying to say is that they should have gotten rid of Nuyen costs for gear at character creation in much the way they got rid of Memory requirements. That would allow players to wrack up on whatever implants they deemed appropriate for their character, using only their Essence as the limiting factor. It would also have the side effect of forcing the designers to balance implants amongst themselves rather than just throwing a high financial cost on one and calling it a day.
While I can understand that desire, it's not very practical. Cost is a balancing factor and offers a lot more options for players and designers alike. You can choose to either throw a ton of nuyen, eat up a ton of Essence, or find a balance between the two when creating a character. That's far more preferable to just having a bunch of must-haves with everything else being sub-quality choices.
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 2 2007, 12:38 AM
Mental note: when asking designers a question, don't start by calling them twits. It sounds ignorant and reeks of jackassery.
Posted by: jklst14 Aug 2 2007, 02:10 AM
I might be misremembering but I think Move by Wire is newer (introduced in Cybertechnology whereas Synaptic Accelerators were introduced in Shadowtech). That being said, I think the developers did a great job on Augmentation and I am overall very pleased with the boost cyberware has received.
Posted by: Aaron Aug 2 2007, 03:07 AM
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| If they printed some shitty guns in Arsenal, would it in any way damage your ability to gun down force 10 spirits with a Ranger Arms from the basic book? Or would it simply enrich the game world to see what the child soldiers in the Central African Empire were bringing to the party? |
I'm sort of with Frank on this one, if I'm understanding what he's implying here. I think the new books are trying to give more breadth and more options, rather than more power. I think this is a Good Thing; one thing that always bugged me about previous editions was the arms race that happened with each new book. I'm delighted that both Street Magic and Augmentation didn't do that, and I hope it's a philosophy that sticks.
Posted by: Cynic project Aug 2 2007, 04:55 AM
My point is why is bioware always more essence friendly?
Look, wire reflexes level 3 is nearly the same cost in term of money as boosted level is,and what.More than three times the essence. Why did wire reflexes get left behind? If no one is upgrading them or improving them, then why are they still made?
The fact is if we are to buy that both wire reflexes and MbW systems are not the cutting edge tech, why hasn't any made anything better?
The only way I can see logic is the the boosters are the best. I can buy that pill...But the fluff doesn't seem to be that.
Bio should not just be hands down better. Money shouldn't be the only factor with it is not. But let's say that you really care about money. You really do. For the love of Zombies make it so that the cyber when is a higher grade compets with the bio in both cost and essence. As it is right now, the idea that cost is a factor is only real to runner. Corps make the items and sell them based on what they think they can charge you for it. If the makers of shadowrun could put out the same number of books sold and charge you a grand a book.(They maybe be even legally required to change that much)the Books would cost a grand.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 2 2007, 04:57 AM
Because bioware is more "alive" than cyberware is, and thus more Essence friendly. Both by its nature and by design.
Both bioware and cyberware have their perks and flaws. In general, cyberware is cheaper but eats into your Essence while the opposite is true of bioware. Both have their unique capabilities as well, with cyberware being far less limited than bioware is. Choice and consequences for your choices. It's a Good Thing™, not a Bad Thing™.
Posted by: eidolon Aug 2 2007, 05:02 AM
| QUOTE (Cynic project) |
| My point is why is bioware always more essence friendly? |
Bio costs more because it's less invasive. Bio is less invasive, so it costs more.
Cyber is cheaper because it's more invasive. Cyber is more invasive, so it costs less.
It might seem kinda circular, but that's because it is. However, it's a staple of the game. Dare I say, of the genre? It's a balance issue, to be sure, but it also fits directly with the fluff that has existed since day one.
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| I'm delighted that both Street Magic and Augmentation didn't do that, and I hope it's a philosophy that sticks. |
I'm just getting into SR4, but if this is true, it will keep me there. Talk about a breath of fresh air. As a GM more often than not, power creep just...irritates the hell out of me.
Posted by: Ravor Aug 2 2007, 05:30 AM
Well is is some minor power creep in Street Magic in that the new spirits are generally more useful then the ones in the corebook, but that can be taken care of with some simple house rules.
Posted by: FrankTrollman Aug 2 2007, 05:43 AM
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Well is is some minor power creep in Street Magic in that the new spirits are generally more useful then the ones in the corebook, but that can be taken care of with some simple house rules. |
I was actually really pleased to find that when a poll was conducted of what spirits people thought were the "best" and what were the "worst" - that the new spirits in Street Magic got almost exactly half the votes.
Now, there are four of them and they were competing against 6 spirits in the main book, but it's still a feather I'll stick in my cap on the design level. More than Plant or even Guidance spirits being overpowered, I think it spoke most powerfully to the fact that Air and Fire spirits are really pretty interchangeable. They even get the same great form power.
---
Nevertheless I'm curious as to what house rules you think are necessary to the Task, the Plant, the Guardian, or the Guidance spirit to keep them from being too awesome. Heck, we might be able to squeeze it in as an official house rule (if that made any sense) somewhere down the line...
-Frank
Posted by: Cynic project Aug 2 2007, 06:55 AM
| QUOTE (Aaron) | ||
I'm sort of with Frank on this one, if I'm understanding what he's implying here. I think the new books are trying to give more breadth and more options, rather than more power. I think this is a Good Thing; one thing that always bugged me about previous editions was the arms race that happened with each new book. I'm delighted that both Street Magic and Augmentation didn't do that, and I hope it's a philosophy that sticks. |
you know i agree the problem is this, if you are going to make something worse than you already have why make it at all?
Posted by: NightmareX Aug 2 2007, 07:50 AM
| QUOTE (Cynic project) |
| When will the silly twits who write shadowrun get this. |
Y'know, I'm getting really tired of seeing crap like this. The current dev team is doing a damn good job keeping SR going and moving it forward. Sure, the mechanics aren't 100% perfect, but then what set of mechanics are? I realize that some old school types aren't satisfied with some of the new stuff, but y'know you ain't alone in old schoolness - and some of us old schoolers have enough faith to overlook a couple of minor issues rather than set around and whine constantly about them. Personally, I think it's a bloody miracle that any of the devs hang out here with the bullshit that is constantly shoveled in their direction from certain parties whenever a new book comes out. But hey, sitting around and complaining about other people's work certainly beats doing anything constructive yourself, huh?
Posted by: Fortune Aug 2 2007, 07:50 AM
| QUOTE |
| if you are going to make something worse than you already have why make it at all? |
Because there is still a market for it, as far as the Corps are concerned.
Posted by: NightmareX Aug 2 2007, 07:53 AM
| QUOTE (Cynic project) |
| you know i agree the problem is this, if you are going to make something worse than you already have why make it at all? |
And if they did keep making "better" stuff the complaint would be that there's a rules bloat and power drift. Or if they didn't make anything the complaint would be that there isn't anything new coming out. Either way, it's "Waaahhhh! It's got CARBS".
Posted by: Synner Aug 2 2007, 07:53 AM
| QUOTE (Cynic project) | ||||
you know i agree the problem is this, if you are going to make something worse than you already have why make it at all? |
I think you've missed the point. They're both saying this isn't a problem, it is a feature.
Posted by: mfb Aug 2 2007, 07:55 AM
| QUOTE (Cynic project) |
| you know i agree the problem is this, if you are going to make something worse than you already have why make it at all? |
because you can make it cheaper. because you don't agree that it's worse. because you think you can fool buyers into thinking it's not worse. because you're aiming for the lower-end market. because you're contractually obliged to. because it's actually better-suited for certain narrow applications. because you can't bring yourself to admit you're wrong. 'cuz.
Posted by: Thyme Lost Aug 2 2007, 08:11 AM
| QUOTE (Cynic project) |
| you know i agree the problem is this, if you are going to make something worse than you already have why make it at all? |
Because sometimes the GM wants to give the Evil bad guys fluckies substandard equipment.
It sometimes nice for all the mookies the PCs are fighting to be using weapons the PCs wouldn't want to loot.
Just because something isn't for the PCs, doesn't mean the GMs shouldn't have the option to give the Eq to NPCs.
Also, just because one person thinks it is "worse" doesn't mean that someone else isn't going to love the peace of equipment and want it for their PC.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 2 2007, 09:43 AM
And, most importantly, sometimes players choose equipment, spells, and abilities based upon what their character would actually possess, not what crunches out as the absolute best.
Posted by: Zak Aug 2 2007, 10:14 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| And, most importantly, sometimes players choose equipment, spells, and abilities based upon what their character would actually possess, not what crunches out as the absolute best. |
That's an urban myth.
Posted by: Caine Hazen Aug 2 2007, 01:45 PM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Aug 2 2007, 05:43 AM) |
| And, most importantly, sometimes players choose equipment, spells, and abilities based upon what their character would actually possess, not what crunches out as the absolute best. |
That worked better when there were more pictures... but its about the truth. A Colt Manhunter might have been powerful, but it looked like ass (to me) and I wasn't gonna be using a bloody revolver, cause I wasn't a cowboy
Remember, some of us still play for style
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 2 2007, 02:16 PM
| QUOTE (NightmareX) | ||
Y'know, I'm getting really tired of seeing crap like this. The current dev team is doing a damn good job keeping SR going and moving it forward. Sure, the mechanics aren't 100% perfect, but then what set of mechanics are? I realize that some old school types aren't satisfied with some of the new stuff, but y'know you ain't alone in old schoolness - and some of us old schoolers have enough faith to overlook a couple of minor issues rather than set around and whine constantly about them. Personally, I think it's a bloody miracle that any of the devs hang out here with the bullshit that is constantly shoveled in their direction from certain parties whenever a new book comes out. But hey, sitting around and complaining about other people's work certainly beats doing anything constructive yourself, huh? |
Exactly, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with their decisions and there is nothing wrong with pointing out mistakes or rules that potentially have bad consequences.. but simply insulting them is unacceptable.
There is a huge difference between constructive criticism and a blatant insult.
Move by Wire is equipment for people who want to nearly kill themselves to make themselves absurdly fast. It always has been. It is something for Cyberzombies to give them an even bigger edge. It isn't a piece of equipment that PCs take unless they're in a position to become cyberzombies, and that is how it always has been.
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 2 2007, 02:37 PM
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
because you can make it cheaper. because you don't agree that it's worse. because you think you can fool buyers into thinking it's not worse. because you're aiming for the lower-end market. because you're contractually obliged to. because it's actually better-suited for certain narrow applications. because you can't bring yourself to admit you're wrong. 'cuz. |
QFT
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 2 2007, 02:56 PM
| QUOTE (Cynic project) |
| Look, wire reflexes level 3 is nearly the same cost in term of money as boosted level is,and what.More than three times the essence. Why did wire reflexes get left behind? If no one is upgrading them or improving them, then why are they still made? |
Wired 3 got the shaft intentionally. It's old tech: out of date and worthless. It probably isn't in production anymore, but that doesn't mean it no longer exists.
You may see it in the old gaurd razorguy gaurding your target, or find it used at your local cyberdoc's, or start with it because your character concept is that of an old gaurd razorguy dragged back into the game.
Posted by: eidolon Aug 2 2007, 02:59 PM
| QUOTE (Zak) | ||
That's an urban myth. |
Posted by: ThreeGee Aug 2 2007, 03:05 PM
| QUOTE |
| It is something for Cyberzombies to give them an even bigger edge |
And the new rules seem to make it much easier to maintain and play a Cyberzombie.
Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 2 2007, 03:37 PM
| QUOTE (eidolon @ Aug 2 2007, 09:59 AM) | ||||
|
Funny stuff.
Anyway though, I think the OP is missing that the books and gear aren't all about the PCs, they're for the GMs too. Right now, I'm sure there's plenty of GMs out there who wouldn't mind having a few ultra low budget legacy tech type weapons and 'ware out there floating around on the streets but don't want to stat out their own. Nothing screams Z-zone like desperate people trying to defend their turf with ancient shotguns held together by rust and a duct taped stock. Putting things in the official books can help give name recognition too. Seeing that my opponent's got a streetline special in his hand does more for my immersion than "he's got a pocket pistol."
Posted by: Cynic project Aug 2 2007, 09:56 PM
| QUOTE (Thyme Lost @ Aug 2 2007, 03:11 AM) | ||
Because sometimes the GM wants to give the Evil bad guys fluckies substandard equipment. It sometimes nice for all the mookies the PCs are fighting to be using weapons the PCs wouldn't want to loot. Just because something isn't for the PCs, doesn't mean the GMs shouldn't have the option to give the Eq to NPCs. Also, just because one person thinks it is "worse" doesn't mean that someone else isn't going to love the peace of equipment and want it for their PC. |
Um, your argument is false.
You stance is the same stance as players should pay 100 points to to play elves. Not all races need to be playable by PCs.
Let's point out that NPCs have all hte resources the GM let's them have. Both in terms of money,time(at lest before th players know of them), and friends.
The NPC essance is a largely mute point as well. The GM give them out items based on what they think that the NPC should have. In the end, more than 99% of the time an NPC with 6 or .01 essance is the same. The cost of money is mute.
Crapy items are fine, the fact is that you could have say crappy reflexes that only gave you one pass, cost 100k and 1 essance a level.No PC would ever buy it...But NPCs could have it.
So Whipstitch, how about make all metahumans cost 200 character points to play?Or make it so that shaman cannot bind spirits? Or that if you are an female you have diffrent cap of stats...
The point is that NPCs should be treated like PCs and should only have gear that is reasonable.
Take into account all costs, not just nuyen. So yes when buying a gun, some NPCs may not have the best guns but sometimes the players will be short on cash as well. But if I used a crappy gun now, it will not mean that I will suck for the rest of my life. Essance is a finite and isnon recoverable.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 2 2007, 11:01 PM
Whoa Whoa Whoa. The only place the cost differential you've mentioned is even an issue is high-grade wired reflexes. Standard grade wired and standard grade synaptic accelerators are two different things. One if for people more concerned with money than essence, the other is the other way around. Now alphaware and higher grade wired 3 is pointless, because it costs as much or more than standard synaptic accelerator 3, and still has a greater essence cost.
Everywhere else, the cyber/bioware in question is different enough in function that there's no strait comparison.
They aren't going to cut wired reflexes. Aside from being a staple of the genre, the standard version is useful in it's role. Cyberware grades are a general rule, which is applied to any piece of ware. What, did you expect them to put extra text in the book just to point out that higher grade wired reflexes is pointless? You can put cyberspurs in your head, too, even though this is a poor choice as well. Not all interactions between two separate variables will be favorable, get over it. You are obviously smart enough to do the basic math to aviod the poor choice.
Why on earth are you so hissy over this?
Posted by: mfb Aug 2 2007, 11:07 PM
jesus. use a damn spellchecker, Cynic. i am not subjecting myself to the horror of reading another of your posts until you start doing so.
Posted by: Cynic project Aug 2 2007, 11:32 PM
I am getting upset because it is a stable of the genre.
I am getting upset because people confuse because it is this way,for this the way it should be.
Wired Reflexes sucks, but that is not my biggest problem. My problem is that either cyberware is better or worse. It is better than bio in the way of cyber eyes, but worse than Bio when it come to things like reflexes.
I think that if you are going to make tow items that are the same thing but different flavor. Bio over metal they should be balanced in some way.
Wired reflexes is old tech, hence it is cheaper and more essance...Delta Grade wired reflexes can't be old tech and are not cheaper,and still cost more essence.
MbW is not old tech, is more essence and what? It is bigger..But it is so big that anyone who would get it can't fully use it.
In the end essence is a immutable number that stays constant in every game. Money is not.
NPCs do not need to worry about how much essence items cost because they are made by the GM. They are have whatever gear they need. The costs of items either in money or essence only really effect players.
As I said before at least 99% of NPCs are the same with essence of .01 or 6. The essence cost of wired reflexes does not matter to NPCS. To nearly every the NPC is the same cost as Boosters. They are the same thing to NPCs, but to players...
But go for it prove to me why NPCs care about costs, either money or essence costs.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 2 2007, 11:57 PM
In other words, you want each enhancement to be worth a certain amount of nuyen. Then you figure out a discount off that base cost for how much essence it takes up. You want it to be perfectly balanced.
Go grab the rules for Mekton Zeta. You'll see what a system like that looks like. It's awesome. I love it. But you'll also notice it in it's perfect mathematical construction, it lacks even a quarter of the flavor that SR augmentation has.
But it's not a staple (not stable) of the genre. Fairness is not a staple of the cyberpunk genre. That kind of perfectly balanced min-maxing is not something that any part of the rules does. Hell, take a look at Karma costs.
The idea that cyberware is better at bioware at some things, and worse at others, is a staple of the genre. The idea that certain types of ware are bad choices, or obsolete, is part of the genre. If we took the time to balance that perfectly, then logically we have to extend it to every peice of ware, so that in all places cyber and bio overlap, the costs (factoring in the nuyen value of your soul) are even. But if you do that, you need to make sure that the nuyen costs of stat boosts uses the same BP at character generation that buying the stat does, so that one isn't better than the other. Don't forget to balance that perfectly against adept powers and magic spells. It's the only way to close any exploits and make sure that everything is equally powerful.
NO thank you. Not only is it a lot of work, but it reduces the difference between cyber and bio (and in the far end of my slippery slope, magic and spells and spirits and natural ability) to mere fluff. It takes a beautiful system designed around a beautiful setting, and turns it into GURPS or BESM.
Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 3 2007, 01:47 AM
| QUOTE (Cynic project) |
| You stance is the same stance as players should pay 100 points to to play elves. Not all races need to be playable by PCs. |
That's not much of a rebuttal. There are plenty of races that shouldn't be playable by PCs, and if they were, they should cost incredible amounts of BP. Like Dragons for instance. Come up with a few trillion Karma and I might be convinced to let you play Dunkelzahn the Cyberzombie Great Dragon.
| QUOTE (Cynic project) |
| So Whipstitch, how about make all metahumans cost 200 character points to play?Or make it so that shaman cannot bind spirits? Or that if you are an female you have diffrent cap of stats... |
Again, the female and shaman thing is neither here nor there. And there's plenty of people out there in the sixth world with only 200 bps, actually. Heck, off the top of my head, you could make a human doctor with the sinner negative quality, 3s in all attributes and 3 points of the Biotech skill group and still have 15 points to spend on gear, giving him a networth of 75,000 nuyen. That'd be more than enough for a sedan, a few months of middle lifestyle, a wardrobe and a commlink.
God, I'm so bored I'm feeding trolls. Apologies, everyone.
Posted by: Cthulhudreams Aug 3 2007, 02:03 AM
If it is resulting in you crying yourself to sleep at night, why not just use the house rule that I, a huge n00b, have already seen suggested a bazillion times:
Wired 1: 11k 1 essence
Wired 2: 22k 2 essence
Wired 3: 33k 3 essence.
Heck you could change the costs to 11k, 33k, and 66k respectively, they are still very competitive with synaptic accelerators. it's only one item of gear, and yeah it's clearly a stupid item of gear because of how the pricing structure works, but thats quite fixable.
edit: horrible math error from quoting of top of my head.
Posted by: stable_sort Aug 3 2007, 03:08 AM
I feel a lot more pity for the poor bastard who decided to get a Fairlight Excalibur cut into his head in late 2063. Or Johnny Mnemonic, who burned a bunch of essence on Headware Memory. At least the guy who bought WR-III when it was hot still has a useful implant.
Anyway, WR3 has always cost 5 essence and a bunch of money. It certainly did in SR3, and I believe it did in 2 as well. Back in 1996, my roommate bought a big-screen TV -- rear projection, 45" diagonal, heavy, and it cost $3500+. You could walk into any store today and get a bigger, 1080p plasma or lcd for substantially less money.
On the other hand, I GM a game, and WR-III could easily fit into an old-school villain. Veteran of the First Cola War (2053-2057) with Delta WR-III & other ware (paid for by Aztechnology/Pepsi). The company still owns his soul (the 0.15% that he has left), he'll never work off his debt (millions of ) but technologically, he's junk -- too expensive to fix and easy to replace. If he were a building, they'd burn him down for the insurance. Instead, they throw him at high-risk projects and don't care much if he comes back intact.
Posted by: Narmio Aug 3 2007, 04:09 AM
| QUOTE |
| Wired Reflexes sucks, but that is not my biggest problem. My problem is that either cyberware is better or worse. It is better than bio in the way of cyber eyes, but worse than Bio when it come to things like reflexes. |
Wow, choice! Can't fucking have that...
Oh yeah, and as for wired reflexes sucking, every cyber-based character in our games has them at character generation, rating two, sometimes alpha, sometimes not.
Being polite here, on the whole, your stance, cynicproject, does not seem to reflect that of someone who plays a lot of SR4, but rather someone who has a pet peeve that the world seems to have changed from his long-held perceptions.
Being less polite: get over it.
[Edit: Being less "less polite" now. Sorry Fisty.]
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 3 2007, 05:34 AM
Try sticking to being more polite
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Aug 3 2007, 04:16 PM
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| jesus. use a damn spellchecker, Cynic. i am not subjecting myself to the horror of reading another of your posts until you start doing so. |
Indeed.
Oh, and one thing a spellchecker won't catch for you, Cynic: If you mean to say that a point is of no practical significance, you say that the point is "moot", not "mute". A lot of people make that mistake.
I'll agree that WR3 sucks, but hey, if you don't care about essence and just want to be as fast as possible for as cheap as possible, it's not a bad way to go.
Other than that I pretty much completely disagree with you. There are a lot of bits of enhancement that do the same job, and some of them do it better than others, but what you almost never find is gear that does the exact same thing as something else but does it for less nuyen, less essence, better effects, better in every way. That is very rare, and if it does come up it's probably because one of the things is old tech that is included for the completeness of the setting (like Wired 3)
Posted by: Cynic project Aug 3 2007, 04:53 PM
| QUOTE (Narmio) | ||
Wow, choice! Can't fucking have that... Oh yeah, and as for wired reflexes sucking, every cyber-based character in our games has them at character generation, rating two, sometimes alpha, sometimes not. Being polite here, on the whole, your stance, cynicproject, does not seem to reflect that of someone who plays a lot of SR4, but rather someone who has a pet peeve that the world seems to have changed from his long-held perceptions. Being less polite: get over it. [Edit: Being less "less polite" now. Sorry Fisty.] |
No, I am someone who thinks money is not of a big of issue as essence.
From what I gather from MBW...No one who would buy three level of it can even use three levels of it.
I think that if you are going to make things different then make things different. Make all bio and cyber do the equivalent things, have the same costs or comparable costs. If you want bio that does things that cyber doesn't make bio that does what cyber doesn't.If you want cyber that does what bio doesn't.... Make them better because they do different things.
As for every cyber-based character in your game. That is cool. Would they still do it if they knew they were getting one million euros after the first run and the first run had no combat?
The point is no rules should punish people for style. just as gender,skin color, height,eye color, hair color, religion ECT doe snot cost you point.You should not suffer an unfair cost because you want cyber over bio.
I do not care if cyberware is cheer and cost more essence as long as at some grade, and I do not even care if it is delta it is about the same in cost for both essence and money. So think of it this way, bio could be thought as off the shelf delta grade cyber...And you know what I wouldn't mind. The scary part is that you do not even want to go that far. You want to take what the book says and it is the word of the Zombies, so shall it be.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 3 2007, 05:18 PM
| QUOTE (Cynic project) |
| The point is no rules should punish people for style. |
Wrong.
The rules differences, the questions of efficiency, the crunch factor is what makes they style choice meaningful. If all choices were equal, then the difference between cyebrware and bioware would essentially be a special effect. It would cease to be a meaningful decision, because there'd be no real difference.
Going for style is meaningful, in part, because you choose it over substance. People drive cars that are, objectively, peices of shit because they're cool. Most of them KNOW the car is shit, but don't care because being cool is more important. Most stylish clothing is horribly impractical for movnig about in. Think of all the shit that gets done on computers that could more easily and cheaply be done by hand, but gets computerized because computers are cool.
It's not about punishing people for style. It's about choosing the stylish route, even when it's not the most advantageous choice. Its about putting style over substance. No one is forcing you to make your character builds super-efficent.
Posted by: eidolon Aug 3 2007, 05:39 PM
| QUOTE (Cynic project) |
| Make all bio and cyber do the equivalent things, have the same costs or comparable costs. If you want bio that does things that cyber doesn't make bio that does what cyber doesn't.If you want cyber that does what bio doesn't.... Make them better because they do different things. |
But what you're saying is "make a game that isn't Shadowrun". Shadowrun has always, since the introduction of bioware, been about the hard decisions when it comes to augmentation.
Read Cybertechnology. When you're finished, read it again. It seems that you're looking at augmentations (the objects, not the book) as being 100% rules oriented, and ignoring everything that everyone tells you when we say that the rules aren't the only thing that make up Shadowrun.
You want to spend lots of money to be fast, but you don't want the essence hit? Get bio.
You want to get fast cheap, like, stupid cheap, and consequences be damned? Get injected with chemicals. Sure, it can never be undone, you'll never get any faster, and it will really screw with you, but you're fast. (For the record, I don't know that this option still exists as of Augmentation, still haven't gotten to read it.
)You want to get fast, have a bit of E to spare, and don't have the cash for that bio you've been eying? I mean, you'd really like to get the bio options, but you aren't fast enough to net the jobs that would pay you enough to get them. Catch damn 22, eh? Better just go for the wired reflexes. Maybe someday...
I don't know how better to put this.
Yes, you have to make choices. No, those choices are not 100% rules oriented? (Rather, they can be, but then you end up with a "best way", as any optimizer can tell you.) But that's how it is in Shadowrun.
Edit: Well said, PlatonicPimp.
Posted by: Caine Hazen Aug 3 2007, 05:47 PM
Didn't we already cover style vs substance at the beginning of the page 
I think the problem Cynic has with this is that the one side of the crunchy rules say the same thing, so he thinks the other side should too. I think he misses out completely on understanding how it effects the cost side of the thing. The whole Essence to money ration is what makes Bio different from Cyber, and why the game doesn't stagnate under becoming a homogeneous pile of crap
Posted by: FrankTrollman Aug 3 2007, 06:26 PM
It is demonstrably true that for the open-ended consumer who will continue to get augmented indefinitely that having a piece of gear with a higher Essence cost means that it actually has a higher cost as well (since it will need to be taken at a higher grade). But for the one-time consumer - the character who is going to get a specific set of enhancements and then stay that way until he retires or dies - that is not necessarily true.
If you're a player you're going to continue, well, playing for probably an open-ended period of time. Even if the campaign ends on a satisfactory note, there's no guaranty that you won't port the character over to another game later. And thus you match the open-ended consumer very well. That means that non-Essence friendly items are, for you, generally horse shit no matter what they cost in terms of because the real long term costs are actually very high.
But if you're playing in a one-shot game, or you're a security guard who has no intention of ever becoming a high end mercenary for hire or getting upgraded to having poison quills or mouth guns - then it doesn't matter. Seriously. If something costs .1 Essence or all your Essence but .1 it really doesn't make a huge difference - you're not intending to use any of that Essence for anything so spending it is "free".
So having items that cost less - any amount of less and cost more Essence - any amount more Essence - is actually fine. For somebody.
As a player character in an open ended game that somebody is probably not you - but those people do exist both game mechanically and story-wise.
-Frank
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Aug 3 2007, 06:43 PM
Well said, Frank.
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 3 2007, 06:54 PM
IF we aren't going to punish people for style, then we really should go all the way. We need to have only a single type of weapon. Firearms, rockets, grenades, melee weapons, and unarmed combat should all have the same range, area of effect, and damage code as a matter of fairness.
Just to be fair, we should take the best of all worlds. Every attack, including an unarmed punch, should have the range of a scoped sniper rifle, the damage code of an anti-vehicular rocket, and the area of effect of a fragmentation grenade. Just to be fair.
All armor should be equal in rating to the most powerful vehicle armor available, just to be fair, including no armor. A person who chooses to walk around skyclad should not be penalized for his style when a person who chooses to drive a Citymaster is given bonuses for his.
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 3 2007, 07:10 PM
Should probably remove attributes and skills too, or you're punishing someone for choosing the Pistols 6 style over the Pisotls (3) style.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Aug 3 2007, 07:13 PM
You know, there are major stylistic differences between RPGs, too. Just look at the style and power differences between a veteran runner and a 20th level sorceror? Maybe we should simplify all RPGs to the flip-a-coin system.
Sorry, it was just so absurd I just had to jump on board.
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 3 2007, 07:25 PM
If you use rock-paper-scissors instead you just might manage to bring whole generations of White Wolf LARPers back to the table.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Aug 3 2007, 07:28 PM
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| If you use rock-paper-scissors instead you just might manage to bring whole generations of White Wolf LARPers back to the table. |
In that case, I don't think I have enough black makeup or residual teen angst to play rock-paper-scissors.
Posted by: Dashifen Aug 3 2007, 07:32 PM
Meh. I frequently larp in jeans and a t-shirt. Maybe I'm not doing it right.
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 3 2007, 07:40 PM
In order to LARP Vampire, you need to be wearing black t-shirt and jeans, black eyeliner, white full-body makeup, you must have black hair (can be dyed), and you must have a supply of clean razorblades so that you can cut yourself and let other people drink your blood (The other LARPers will do the same).
Back to the point. Being different with different costs and different advantages is not a bad thing. Move by Wire has very large bonuses but also a large essence cost. Wired Reflexes has a large essence cost but is very cheap and easy to obtain. Synaptic Accelerator is very expensive but doesn't cost much essence. Its a choice.
Posted by: Unarmed Aug 3 2007, 07:43 PM
I think the bulleted point here is that choice unbalances the game and should be removed. From now on, everyone has to play the Bounty Hunter archetype in the main book. All the NPCs will be the Bounty Hunter archetype as well. If the PCs ever have to fight anyone, there will inevitably be an equal number of combatants on either side. Tactics, also, are not allowed, because tactics represent choice and of course that is unbalancing.
Posted by: Dashifen Aug 3 2007, 07:47 PM
Wow. I'm definitely doing it wrong then 
Posted by: FrankTrollman Aug 3 2007, 07:51 PM
True LARPing story: so I was playing a live action game of vampire and talking vampire politics with some associates in one of the standard meeting areas. And in walks this young woman dressed in nothing but a nightgown singing a lullaby to herself. Nothing wrong with that, and I naturally assume that this shoeless waif is a Malkavian that I haven't met yet.
So I start up a conversation with her and it is obvious that:
- She's totally batshit insane (good roleplaying!)
and - She's totally in to me and wants in my pants (awesome).
So before it gets too far someone who actually knows her walks in and patiently asks her how old she is. Her response will haunt me forever:
"The cops think I'm seventeen."
:facepalm:
Turns out she was 14, and the reason that she was running around late at night without shoes and singing to herself is because she has some long tragic life story filled with abuse and not because she was affiliated with the game in any way. Gives me the jeeblies to this day (note: at the time I was 18, so hitting on "highschool girls" wasn't as messed up as it would be today).
-Frank
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 3 2007, 07:55 PM
No, no, you've got it all wrong. Choice is OK, so long as there is no significant difference between the choices. Like coke vs. pepsi, democrat vs republican, Visa vs mastercard, The best choices are those between two things that are functionally alike. You can have any color you want, so long as it's black.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 3 2007, 07:57 PM
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| True LARPing story: so I was playing a live action game of vampire... |
You've totally just lost every Cool Gamer Point™ you've earned.
Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 3 2007, 08:04 PM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) | ||
You've totally just lost every Cool Gamer Point™ you've earned. |
Yes, but he gets back twice as many for almost accidentally having sex with a crazy 14-year-old.
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| No, no, you've got it all wrong. Choice is OK, so long as there is no significant difference between the choices. Like coke vs. pepsi, democrat vs republican, Visa vs mastercard, The best choices are those between two things that are functionally alike. You can have any color you want, so long as it's black. |
Exactly. It is this reason why we should keep seperate skills, but make them functionally identical. A character with Pistols 6 should be able to use his pistols skill on an etiquette test, for example, and a face with Etiquette 6 should be able to shoot a pistol with his Etiquette.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Aug 3 2007, 08:09 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| A character with Pistols 6 should be able to use his pistols skill on an etiquette test, |
That sounds about like how we used to play SR when we were 14.
Posted by: stable_sort Aug 3 2007, 08:11 PM
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| No, no, you've got it all wrong. Choice is OK, so long as there is no significant difference between the choices. Like coke vs. pepsi, democrat vs republican, Visa vs mastercard, The best choices are those between two things that are functionally alike. You can have any color you want, so long as it's black. |
I didn't lose my right arm and half my skull in the War of Pepsi Aggression just to hear you whippersnappers spout off about how it's all the same.
"Choice of a New Generation," they'd say. Those kids didn't have no choice, not after all they'd been through, no homes, no families, no choices...
All the same *spit*. You mark my words: Coke will rise again!
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 3 2007, 08:16 PM
Tell that to my Paw. He lost his arm to a diet coke/mentos explosion in the cola wars. Don't act like coke is all vannilla and cherries. Both sides commited the same atrocities against each other. That's how I know the difference is superficial.
Posted by: Unarmed Aug 3 2007, 08:17 PM
Ah, I see. Alright, everyone has to use the bounty hunter archetype, but they're allowed to call it whatever they want. "Street Shaman" for example, would be a good choice.
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 3 2007, 09:01 PM
Only if what they call it has no effect. NPCs shouldn't react differently based on what name you've chosen for your archetype.
Posted by: Caine Hazen Aug 4 2007, 01:07 AM
Is it time to get out the Diceless RPGs yet in the thread?
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 4 2007, 03:06 AM
Karma to Sable Sort (who seems anything but) and Platonic Pimp (who just might be) !
Posted by: stable_sort Aug 4 2007, 06:49 AM
Always Coca-Cola! Alwaaaays!
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