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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Augmentation
Posted by: Enigma Aug 2 2007, 04:40 AM
I don't propose now or ever playing SR4, but I am highly interested in continuing the torch burning for SR3. I was wondering if anyone has converted the SR4 new implant book, 'Augmentation', to SR3 rules, or if there is any proposal officially to do so.
And before you ask, yes, I have purchased Augmentation electronically. No I am not counselling, procuring, aiding or enabling the commission of a copyright offence.
Posted by: Ravor Aug 2 2007, 06:24 AM
Well for the majority of the book I'd point you to Man and Machine, Third Edition's cyberware sourcebook, and then use those stats to convert AUG's new toys if I wanted to go that route personally.
Posted by: Enigma Aug 2 2007, 08:07 AM
Yep, it looks like most of the book is not new at all. For those who care, there are some new ideas (like symbiotic organisms cultured to grow inside a subject to provide certain bonuses), and a few interesting new bits of bioware and cyberware (spider silk glands, for whoever it was on Dumpshock that suggested it), a little bit more expanded nanoware and genetech. One new cool idea is the much-discussed rigged animals (ie the fly is really a bug etc) which seems to be pretty well done. Otherwise not a very good book, nowhere near as ground breaking as Man and Machine was. Does not bode well for SR4, not that I was a fan in any event.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 2 2007, 09:25 AM
| QUOTE (Enigma) |
| Otherwise not a very good book, nowhere near as ground breaking as Man and Machine was. Does not bode well for SR4, not that I was a fan in any event. |
So we gathered from your clearly unbiased opinion and eager purchasing of the sourcebook less than a week after it's release.
Aside from a few very minor issues, Augmentation is one of the best sourcebooks released for the game in any edition and while a lot of the content is merely updates to the new rules system (a criticism I find incredibly hypocritical considering your intent to do the exact same thing, just in reverse), that which is new is really done well, both thematically and in its execution. And for the first time in a very long time, cyberlimbs are a highly desireable option in the game.
Posted by: Critias Aug 2 2007, 09:59 AM
| QUOTE (Enigma) |
| Yep, it looks like most of the book is not new at all. For those who care, there are some new ideas (like symbiotic organisms cultured to grow inside a subject to provide certain bonuses), and a few interesting new bits of bioware and cyberware (spider silk glands, for whoever it was on Dumpshock that suggested it), a little bit more expanded nanoware and genetech. One new cool idea is the much-discussed rigged animals (ie the fly is really a bug etc) which seems to be pretty well done. Otherwise not a very good book, nowhere near as ground breaking as Man and Machine was. Does not bode well for SR4, not that I was a fan in any event. |
What was really all that "groundbreaking" about Man and Machine? It had all the insane rules for surgeries and being maimed and breaking cyberware -- which all sucked, were clumsy, etc, etc -- but other than that much of it was just a regurgitation, sans style, of ShadowTech and other earlier sourcebooks (which is the same criticism you're levelling at Aug).
Posted by: Enigma Aug 2 2007, 10:04 AM
I thought I was very careful in revealing my bias, but apparently not careful enough. Perhaps I ought spell it out more clearly for the cheaper seats. I don't like SR4, even less since reading this book. Read with that in mind.
I bought the book because I hoped, at least, to use it to keep my SR3 gaming evolving, and I hoped that Augmentation would be of use. to that end It isn't. I intended reverse-engineering it for use in SR3, thus the original post. You seem to suggest my intention to take any new material from Augmentation and adapt it to SR3, and then my disappointment at there being very little new material, as hypocritical. I don't see how.
I intended communicating that the new book contained disappointingly little new material, and what little there was did not strike me as quality work. I feel that a core rulebook such as this one would need to be high-quality work containing substantial new material to keep SR4 running along, or at least viable, and in my view this book falls far short of the mark. If that intention was not clear, I appologise.
I disagree with your assessment of the new cyberlimb rules, but we can agree to disagree. I found the new book disappointingly lacking in substance, in new material (as I have said), in writing quality and in game mechanics.
Yes I bought it quickly. One of the few things that I was interested in, SR4-wise, was the Augmentation book because it might have kindled in me more interest in playing SR4. Unfortunately it doesn't. I am sure other people may like it.
Posted by: Critias Aug 2 2007, 10:05 AM
The thing is, it is new material to SR4. Just like M&M was new material to SR3.
Posted by: TheLemming Aug 2 2007, 10:58 AM
In my opionion you should keep in mind that Augmentation is aimed to all those that started with SR4 Core rules into the game -
having an advanced rules set "Augmentation" which based on Men & Machine from SR3 - would have started to create problems for all those SR4 players who are new to the game.
Under these aspects it's a good sourcebook in my humble opinion. Of course it's not all new - Move by Wire and Co have been there for a while, but still it introduces a few new things (maybe not that interesting to you) - but does a good job with converting several things into the new ruleset.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Aug 2 2007, 11:31 AM
| QUOTE (Enigma) |
| I thought I was very careful in revealing my bias, but apparently not careful enough. Perhaps I ought spell it out more clearly for the cheaper seats. I don't like SR4, even less since reading this book. Read with that in mind. I bought the book because I hoped, at least, to use it to keep my SR3 gaming evolving, and I hoped that Augmentation would be of use. to that end It isn't. I intended reverse-engineering it for use in SR3, thus the original post. You seem to suggest my intention to take any new material from Augmentation and adapt it to SR3, and then my disappointment at there being very little new material, as hypocritical. I don't see how. |
Unless you decided to buy the book inbetween your first and second post in this thread, then yes, you are a hypocrite. A hypocrite who claims to have wanted to convert all the material in Augmentation to SR3's rules even though there was apparently nothing in there worth converting.
If you weren't being hypocritical you were just being flat out stupid. I just gave you the benefit of the doubt.
I mean, you open a thread begging people to help you convert rules from a system you allege to hate before even knowing what it is you want converted? Then, instead of simply coming back and saying you were no longer interested in doing so, you preferred to go on a rant about how incredibly bad SR4 is and how Augmentation is a rip-off of Man & Machine (yet how you still want to convert stuff in it -- "but SR4 still sucks, even though I rushed out to buy the book a week after its release while claiming to be open-minded!"). All while trying to pretend that Man & Machine was the pinnacle of creativity and advancement in the game despite it being little more than a comparable rip-off to previous sourcebooks from earlier editions.
So which is it? Hypocritical or stupid? It's one, the other, or both. Take your pick.
| QUOTE |
| I intended communicating that the new book contained disappointingly little new material, and what little there was did not strike me as quality work. I feel that a core rulebook such as this one would need to be high-quality work containing substantial new material to keep SR4 running along, or at least viable, and in my view this book falls far short of the mark. If that intention was not clear, I appologise. |
Hmm. So, in other words, you're simply crying because it finally dawned on you that Augmentation was a sourcebook intended for the SR4 rules set as opposed to an SR3 expansion? Maybe I was wrong about the hypocritical angle afterall.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Aug 2 2007, 11:57 AM
| QUOTE (Enigma) |
| I bought the book because I hoped, at least, to use it to keep my SR3 gaming evolving |
SR4 is so vastly thematically different from SR3, especially when it comes to 'ware, that trying to backport things in meaningful quantity is probably wasted effort. Plus, it means supporting a game that you aren't a fan of that is replacing one you are.
~J
Posted by: Synner Aug 2 2007, 12:37 PM
Augmentation introduces:
- no less than 75 entirely new augmentations (double those introduced in Man & Machine when compared to earlier books such as Cybertechnology and Shadowtech),
- it introduces three entirely new fields of augmentation (ie. symbionts, biodrones and jarheads),
- it makes nanotech and genetech useful and cost effective enhancements for the first time,
- it finally introduces modular cyberlimbs and cybersuites to Shadowrun,
- it also manages to update 95% of the material previously spread out over 4 different SR3 books (ie. M&M, SOTA63, SOTA64, and Target: Wastelands) for all those anxious SR4 players.
- and on top of that, more than a third of the content is setting fluff contextualizing the technologies (which M&M completely lacked).
(On a side note most of the new stuff is fully compatible with SR3 tech levels and upgrades and very little is contingent on 2070 tech developments).
| QUOTE |
| Otherwise not a very good book, nowhere near as ground breaking as Man and Machine was. |
As a long time fan and collector, I can only assume you haven't read Shadowtech or Cybertechnology to be making such a comment.
Posted by: Ravor Aug 2 2007, 03:05 PM
Oi, I wouldn't have bothered to reply if I knew it was going to result in an anti-Fourth Edition rant. Personally I think all in all AUG is on par with Street Magic, which means it's a damned good book.
I may not agree with everything in it (Reintroducing Bio-Index is a mistake in my opinion along with stating cyberdicks.), but it's well written and is needed for Fourth Edition.
Posted by: Ryu Aug 2 2007, 05:35 PM
Synner: I want to buy the book already. Please stop to increase my drooling. Any news on the german license yet?
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Aug 2 2007, 05:42 PM
| QUOTE (Synner) | ||
As a long time fan and collector, I can only assume you haven't read Shadowtech or Cybertechnology to be making such a comment. |
Definitely. I mean obviously Aug is going to have some stuff from M&M, but that's exactly where it belongs. And Aug has so much more genuinely new and creative stuff compared to M&M, which was really just regurgitating the really great ideas from Shadowtech & Cybertech.
Posted by: Adam Aug 2 2007, 07:33 PM
| QUOTE (Ryu) |
| Synner: I want to buy the book already. Please stop to increase my drooling. Any news on the german license yet? |
News about new licenses will be posted first to CatalystGameLabs.com and ShadowrunRPG.com.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 2 2007, 08:08 PM
| QUOTE (Critias @ Aug 2 2007, 05:05 AM) |
| The thing is, it is new material to SR4. Just like M&M was new material to SR3. |
...and just like Shadowtech and the aforementioned Cybertechnology were new material to SR2
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| ...ie. symbionts, biodrones and jarheads |
...I thought those were gong to be introduced in Arsenal
Posted by: Ancient History Aug 2 2007, 08:19 PM
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) | ||
...I thought those were gong to be introduced in Arsenal |
Note to self: check damage stats for KA-BAR.
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Aug 2 2007, 10:35 PM
"Don't tell me you'll be wearing sunglasses on a night operation."
"My vision is augmented."
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 2 2007, 11:12 PM
| QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 2 2007, 03:19 PM) | ||||
Note to self: check damage stats for KA-BAR. |
...hmmm looks like it's time to initiate & up that Mystic Armour a few more points....
Posted by: MYST1C Aug 3 2007, 05:46 AM
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| "Don't tell me you'll be wearing sunglasses on a night operation." |
Cyberpunk: 1. A citizen of cyberspace. 2. A citizen of cyberspace who wears mirrorshades indoors, at night.
- Jude, St., Sirius, R.U., Nagel, Bart, "Cyberpunk Handbook" p.45, Random House, New York 1995
Posted by: eidolon Aug 3 2007, 03:40 PM
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| "Don't tell me you'll be wearing sunglasses on a night operation." "My vision is augmented." |
Don't switch the blade on the guy in shades, oh no
Don't masquerade with the guy in shades, oh no
I can't believe it
You got it made with the guy in shades, oh no
I wear my sunglasses at night
so I can, so I can...
Posted by: Ryu Aug 3 2007, 08:27 PM
@Adam: Guesstimate on when there will be news? (Webspace of your choice 
) Amazon tells me 16th of September/Book by FanPro, and the later info has me reluctant to place an order.
Posted by: Fortune Aug 3 2007, 11:04 PM
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| Don't switch the blade on the guy in shades, oh no |
I was so going to quote the exact same song. Go Corey!
Posted by: Adam Aug 3 2007, 11:09 PM
| QUOTE |
| @Adam: Guesstimate on when there will be news? |
No. Catalyst Game Labs does not do "guesstimates."
| QUOTE |
| Amazon tells me 16th of September/Book by FanPro, and the later info has me reluctant to place an order. |
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here? Any release dates on any site for any FanPro LLC books that are not yet published should be considered 100% useless at this point.
Posted by: FrankTrollman Aug 4 2007, 12:10 AM
| QUOTE (Adam) | ||
No. Catalyst Game Labs does not do "guesstimates." |
Also: You can't handle the truth.
-Frank
Posted by: Ryu Aug 4 2007, 04:13 AM
I was talking about the english printed version from Amazon, supposedly coming from FanPro. I´d rather not import the book myself.
http://www.amazon.de/Shadowrun-Augmentation-Rob-Boyle/dp/1932564721/ref=sr_1_1/302-6526669-5636815?ie=UTF8&s=books-intl-de&qid=1186172350&sr=8-1
Posted by: Shrike30 Aug 4 2007, 04:32 AM
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Augmentation introduces: ... |
Winner!
Posted by: Ryu Aug 4 2007, 12:18 PM
@Frank: I can handle the truth. Let me guess: After things were clear concerning catalyst games they took the smart move and reorganised things to make them work better/at all. Between reorganising and getting new stuff out finding new license partners had no priority at all (Apart from the fact that negotiations flow better if you know what you want do do).
To ask a better question: How will the distribution of english books be handled in germany? My assumption so far was that only WWW-stores like amazon are able to deliver in the near and not-so-near future.
Posted by: Adam Aug 4 2007, 02:56 PM
FanPro LLC will never be releasing an English version of Augmentation, so any stores trying to sell it will not be fulfilling those orders. Some stores may end up fulfilling those orders with the Catalyst Game Labs release, but I do not suspect that Amazon is one of those. To them, the Catalyst release of Augmentation is a completely different book, because it has a different ISBN.
Catalyst is still working on getting distribution partners in Europe, and I'm sure we'll be available in game stores there within a few months.
Posted by: Ryu Aug 4 2007, 05:07 PM
In that case I´ll hope they notice anything that has its own ISBN... allthough they apparently didn´t notice Emergence.
Thanks for the info, keep on the good work.
Posted by: Mightyflapjack Aug 4 2007, 10:56 PM
Two words:
Penile Implant
(Think about it... This may be the implant that stops world war.)
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Aug 4 2007, 10:59 PM
...let's not go there again.
There's already a dedicated thread on the SR4 forum.
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