Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Yet another newbie GM question..

Posted by: Mr.Jibaku Aug 2 2007, 11:59 PM

Hey guys, first thanks for the answers to my hacking questions. Seriously the info nailed all the questions I had about the topic.

This next question involves the combat that I would like to have in my next week's game. If you are in my game stop reading this now.

I was thinking about having my green table fight some Ghouls. The only problem is they use melee attacks and are blind.

Questions:

If they run out of dice they automatically miss, right? Because of their enhanced hearing is it possible to allow them to attack based on sound instead of sight?

They have the Sapience meaning they are smart enough to use tools such as guns and melee weapons right?

How many Ghouls would be a good challenge for 4 green players (Hacker/Pistol ,Sam/Shottie and Pistol, Mage, and Mage)?

Thanks again, and as always any extra info or sites that have neat newbie related info is great. Like Pavao.org.

Jibaku

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 3 2007, 12:09 AM

Ghouls are blind, yes. However, they're also dual-natured. That means they can use astral perception to hit you (and tell if you're lying, or hurt, or a magician, or have implants, etc.)

Most ghouls are as a smart as metahumans, and will use tech to their advantage.

For a newbie group, two-three ghouls per player makes for a fairly challenging melee-less if the ghouls are stronger, craftier (traps or tactics), better equipped (ghousl with shotguns and grenades can be scary), or have magical abilities (a ghoul shaman, for example, can prevent the PC magician from frying the entire group).

Posted by: TeOdio Aug 3 2007, 12:53 AM

I agree with Ancient. They can track their prey by their enhanced hearing and sense of smell. They are nasty ass "critters" if you want them to be. If the encounter is one the runners are aware of a head of time, they can do a lot to mitigate their risk, but in an encounter where they are unaware of ghouls being there, it can get ugly very fast. They move quick, and in places ghouls like to populate, like dilapidated slums and tenements, the effectiveness of ranged combat disappears when a ghoul pack may not be seen till you bump into them. 3 Ghouls per player can turn into a slaughter if they get on one of your runners that has poor close combat skills or a sorry dodge. That being said, I've always liked ghoul encounters. In 4th edition, I can actually say that they are a lot more challenging than previous editions (unless you had waves of them)

Posted by: Ddays Aug 3 2007, 01:14 AM

Are there rules for using astral perception to hit mundane targets? Is it just a standard -2?

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 3 2007, 01:16 AM

There's astral visibility modifiers in Street Magic that can apply.

Posted by: Ddays Aug 3 2007, 01:27 AM

So even less reason for mages to get cyber eyes. Just go to astral and blast away with physical spells from there?

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 3 2007, 01:35 AM

Well, keep the limitations in mind. To astral perception, a glass window is as clear as concrete.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 3 2007, 01:56 AM

As much as I hate to disagree with Ancient History, the intelligent level of ghouls is kinda up for grabs. Many people make it through with their brainpans intact, a lot of other ones are reduced to humaniod animals, with little remaining of their sentience. IN previous editions there was a table for how much of your personality you retained if you became a ghoul, but it was slanted to give PCs a chance to survive. The fluff from earlier editions (especially 1st edition) suggests that most ghouls fall on the low end of that scale, and that intelligent ghouls were one in a hundred.

Posted by: DrPeteCastle Aug 3 2007, 02:36 AM

here is even a newbier question , ive yet to be in a shadowrun game/rpg, so my question is how would u guys describe such an encounter to the pcs as a gamemaster? im slow to this concept as the book doesnt go over how to properly run a game and when to describe the game

Posted by: DrPeteCastle Aug 3 2007, 04:36 AM

..........oh, cool...........

Posted by: Ravor Aug 3 2007, 04:57 AM

QUOTE (Ddays)

So even less reason for mages to get cyber eyes. Just go to astral and blast away with physical spells from there?

That tactic would work just fine provided your DM doesn't actually USE the Astral Visibility modifiers or Background Counts, if he/she does then you'd be better off visiting your cyberdoc.

Posted by: nathanross Aug 3 2007, 05:17 AM

I see two ways of having to deal with ghouls.

First, an ambush in the barrens by a pack of ghouls. Mostly bestial intelligence, though as mentioned before, dual nature and enhanced senses enable them to be slightly strategic if they are of that intelligence.

Second, I see the possibility of messing with a group of intelligent ghouls and having them after you. This has already been hinted at.

I personally prefer #1 as that is most supported by fluff. However, intead of mindless waves of ghouls, having 1-5 intelligent leaders could make things very interesting. After all, ghouls are intelligent enough to coordinate with Tamanous and secure a constant food source and would love to target the Sammy due to the money/food they could get from him. Also if it was in a corner of the Barrens they are familiar with, feel free to give them home ground advantages.

Just gave me some great ideas, never really thought of the dangers a pack of coordinated ghouls could be.

Posted by: nathanross Aug 3 2007, 05:19 AM

OH, completely forgot to address Dual Nature.

Ghouls have NO visibility modifiers for interacting with the physical world while astrally percieving, that is one of the advantages to being on all the time.

Forget the exact page, but this has always been the case.

Unfortunately, they are limited to what astral visibility there is. As mentioned before, they cannot see through window and cannot read. Read the astral space section for more detail.

Posted by: Fortune Aug 3 2007, 05:26 AM

QUOTE (nathanross)

Ghouls have NO visibility modifiers for interacting with the physical world while astrally percieving, that is one of the advantages to being on all the time.

Where do you get this from in SR4? It may have always been the case in the past, but I don't believe it is so as of the new edition.

Posted by: knasser Aug 3 2007, 06:57 AM

QUOTE (DrPeteCastle)

GM: "Okay, the car rolls to a halt. You've reached as far as the grid extends and from here on it's officially the Barrens. 'Trix Baby (the hacker) is still brain fried from the Black IC so there's nothing you can do to overide the car. It deducts the 20

from your credstick and unceremoniously clicks the door open. <synthetic voice>Please Exit the Vehicle.</synthetic voice>"
Lead Player:Okay. I guess we'd better get going if we're going to make it to the drop. Does my mapsoft cover this area? And is it still raining?
GM: It's patchy - to both. Your image link pops up the layout of the main streets glowing in the rain before you where only you can see. But it's lacking any of the detail that you get in the better covered areas. The sole info-icons are the dull red "High Crime Area" glyphs which are liberally scattered across this whole area.
2nd Player: "Great - I hoist Trix Baby's skinny round-eared ass over my shoulder and we set off toward our drop point, walking as fast as we can."
Lead Player: Stealthily![/b]
GM: You're hurrying stealthily?[/b]
Lead Player:[/b] As much as we can.
GM:Okay. After a couple of miles of abandoned streets and the odd torched car, you have to turn off the main street. There's almost no light here, just the rain-obscured moon and the odd lit window that you don't feel like investigating. There are people here, but you don't see anyone. Maybe this cold rain is a good thing if it's cleared people off the street. These side roads are a lot more claustrophobic, Approximately eight metres wide with very high buildings, 20-30 stories, on each side. This is sniper heaven. Great heaps of refuse are dumped in the middle of the road, presumably to make bonfires at some point.
Lead Player: We keep to the walls as tightly as we can, and I keep an eye out for movement at any of the windows. Remember I have thermographic, too.
GM: I haven't forgotten. I want Perception rolls from all of you, please."

Players roll dice. Several groans

GM: The attack, when it comes, arrives from an unexpected direction. A dirty dishevelled figure literally springs out of the darkness behind an empty window, straight at Samurai Mack (lead player's character). The woman, you think it's a woman, is literally snarling (GM makes snarling noises and gruesome faces, clearly enjoying himself). In the meantime one of the piles of refuse explodes and three more figures lope toward the group at a run. And they're fast. As the nearest figure reaches you, you see it's not a man at all, but a creature. Its eyes are sightless milky orbs, but it's looking at you - you can feel it looking at you - and it doesn't care about the dark at all.

Lead Player: (cursing) "'Ghouls! Don't let them touch you!' To the GM: That edge point I've been keeping - I think I want to spend it now, please."

Posted by: Dashifen Aug 3 2007, 01:37 PM

Posted by: Rifleman Aug 3 2007, 02:04 PM

QUOTE (Fortune)

QUOTE (nathanross @ Aug 3 2007, 03:19 PM)

Ghouls have NO visibility modifiers for interacting with the physical world while astrally percieving, that is one of the advantages to being on all the time.

Where do you get this from in SR4? It may have always been the case in the past, but I don't believe it is so as of the new edition.

Actually, it really wasn't supposed to work that way astrally before, but it wasn't stated as such.

Now, in fourth edition, it clearly states that viability modifiers apply for the most part. This is a huge difference, and makes astral another option (and a good one) but not the be all end all of observation and reconnaissance.

Second, as for ghouls themselves, the smart ones are rare. But, there are enough smart ones out there to make them not so rare as to make a group, a town sized area, or even a small country impossible. (In fact, unless I'm mistaken, there was a African nation in Cyberpirates that was just that. Correct me if I'm wrong, it's been awhile.) The smart ones aid Organleggers, run black market cloning operations, help the mob, or do what it takes to make money and get the next big meal.

The chart mentioned earlier was slanted to the players, but it is probably a bit closer to about a quarter being roughly human intellect (Although not the brightest, most will have their brains roughed up by the viris still.)

Posted by: Slash_Thompson Aug 3 2007, 02:47 PM

no book here, but:

possible that 'no visibility modifiers' for using the astral is meant as: no penalties for normal tasks, but additional penalties from obscuring effects in the astral still apply?

Posted by: Dashifen Aug 3 2007, 02:50 PM

I think that nathanross was indicating that Ghouls, as a dual-natured being with only astral perception at their fingertips, would eventually learn to overcome the -2 to using Astral Perception from which mages, who would be more likely to rely on physical perception in most cases, suffer.

In other words, a critter with astral perception rather than physical perception doesn't suffer the -2 because -- for the critter -- astral is the normal way of seeing things. YMMV.

Posted by: Apathy Aug 3 2007, 03:17 PM

QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 2 2007, 08:35 PM)

Well, keep the limitations in mind. To astral perception, a glass window is as clear as concrete.

Did this change between SR3 and SR4? I thought that glass was equally see-through in astral?

[Edit]Ghouls tend to be easier for mages to deal with, because their dual nature means they can be easily targeted by an astrally percieving mage without risking his teammates in the area effect spell. (i.e. "I astrally percieve and cast stunball, centered on me"...Every ghoul in the area of effect goes down, and the non-dual natured teammates don't have to resist damage because they're not astrally present.)

Posted by: FrankTrollman Aug 3 2007, 04:40 PM

QUOTE (Fortune)

QUOTE (nathanross @ Aug 3 2007, 03:19 PM)

Ghouls have NO visibility modifiers for interacting with the physical world while astrally percieving, that is one of the advantages to being on all the time.

Where do you get this from in SR4? It may have always been the case in the past, but I don't believe it is so as of the new edition.

QUOTE (SR4 errata v. 1.5)

p. 287 Dual Natured [4]
Add the following line:
Dual Natured critters do not suffer the –2 dice pool modifier for interacting with the physical world while astrally perceiving.

They still suffer Astral Perception Modifiers and such, but they don't suffer a penalty for targetting physical opponents with their Astral Perception.

-Frank

Posted by: Jaid Aug 3 2007, 04:47 PM

QUOTE (Apathy)

QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 2 2007, 08:35 PM)

Well, keep the limitations in mind. To astral perception, a glass window is as clear as concrete.

yes, the visibility on the astral thing was changed.

and that's a terribly way for a mage to deal with ghouls. it means he's going to be frying himself with his own stunball. do i need to explain why this isn't a good idea? =P

(well, it could be a good idea some of the time, but most of the time it is not =P )

Posted by: Sma Aug 3 2007, 05:20 PM

QUOTE

[Edit]Ghouls tend to be easier for mages to deal with, because their dual nature means they can be easily targeted by an astrally percieving mage without risking his teammates in the area effect spell. (i.e. "I astrally percieve and cast stunball, centered on me"...Every ghoul in the area of effect goes down, and the non-dual natured teammates don't have to resist damage because they're not astrally present.)

Except he'd need to project instead of only perceiving, which supposedly leaves his body helpless in melee.

Posted by: Apathy Aug 3 2007, 05:50 PM

Considering that he has both his (probably high) Willpower and Spell Defense, while the ghouls only have (probably average) Willpower, it should be relatively easy for him to cast a moderately-forced Stunball that he can resist without damage and that the ghouls can't resist. He's less likely to get hurt from his own area effect spell than he would if he only took out one ghoul before the other three got him in close combat.

Posted by: Ravor Aug 3 2007, 05:51 PM

As long as he remembers that as a Direct Combat Spell, stunball will only take out the ghouls he has LOS on.

Posted by: Apathy Aug 3 2007, 05:56 PM

True, and I guess that's where good strategy and knowledge of the terrain can pay off for the ghouls. If they can get close before being discovered, and attack from multiple directions, then at least some of them should make it close enough to melee the team.

(and I suppose one that happens, the -2 modifier for physical actions while astrally percieving would go against him, if he couldn't switch back to normal vision in time.)

Posted by: FrankTrollman Aug 3 2007, 06:07 PM

QUOTE (Apathy)

Ghouls have a large racial bonus to Willpower. A pedestrian Ghoul has a Willpower of 5. A Ghoul's normal Willpower maximum is 8. A Ghoul's augmented maximum is 12.

Ghoul's have an "average" Willpower as racial minimum. You can't even be a Ghoul with a Willpower of less than 3. And they can get Spell Defense just like you can.

-Frank

Posted by: hyzmarca Aug 3 2007, 06:28 PM

Also remember that ghoul physical blindness can be cured with cybereyes. Many ghouls who seek to 'pass' in normal society get cybereyes for this reason.