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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Metagame questions
Posted by: Gelare Aug 3 2007, 03:47 PM
So, me and my group recently migrated over to Shadowrun from D&D, and I've been GMing for them. I think I've done pretty well - every adventure the party comes very, very close to dying, but doesn't quite die. To be fair, I've been stealing some good adventures from other people. (Ping Time, Born to Die, and BodyChase, in case you're curious.) Anyway, I'm wondering how you all do things like death in your games. This is Shadowrun, after all. If I were even a little more ruthless than I am, at least half the party would be dead. Now, when we played D&D, when someone would die and didn't want to be raised, we'd jokingly say that when you bury the corpse, an adventurer tree grows on the spot, and - pop! - out comes a fully equipped new character! Maybe they'd lose a level, but mostly we just wanted to keep the game going. I understand this isn't exactly in the spirit of Shadowrun - guilty as charged, but hey, that's just how we roll.
So what do you do in your games when a player dies?
As a bonus question, why do melee characters sound so popular around here despite the fact that the defender gets dodge bonuses and the character gets stuck right out in the open?
As an extra bonus question, how do you show combat? We converted our D&D combat map, with the five foot squares now being one meter squares (the largest squares possible while still being able to see if two people can be hit in a single wide burst).
Posted by: Critias Aug 3 2007, 03:55 PM
1. On Death -- Just remember, rather than "an adventuring party" that's been thrown together by fate and an old grey-robed wizard in a smoky tavern, your average Shadowrunner team is a team. If Big Joe the samurai bites it, your team is short some muscle...so Johnny Fixer is going to make sure you guys have a replacement for Big Joe before he's going to offer you another job. You are who you know, and someone on the team (if not Johnny Fixer himself) should have a contact that can get them in touch with another street samurai type. It's also worth remembering that players can always use Edge to keep from dying -- they'll still be out of the fight, down and bleeding, whatever, but as long as the rest of the team doesn't dawdle and takes care of business, they'll be still alive, at least.
2. Melee -- Because you don't always have your guns? Because sometimes the bad guy is a melee dude (and it pays to be able to defend against it)? Because gutting a dude with a bunch of chrome-plated blades that you pretend is your hand the rest of the time is cool? Because Killing Hands (and Critical Strike, and Improved Ability, and Improved Attribute) really is pretty dangerous? Melee can be plenty nasty.
3. That sounds just fine (the map). With the lack of SR miniatures in recent years to tell us what to do "officially," just about anything'll work. A hex map, a grid map, or even just an open table (and a measuring tape) can all help you show semi-organized combat. I was always fond of a dry erase board to quick, crude, mapping for Shadowrun games, myself. Not pretty, but we were all wargamers and got our painting and creativity out of our system for other games. 
Posted by: James McMurray Aug 3 2007, 03:56 PM
| QUOTE (Gelare) |
| |
| QUOTE |
| So what do you do in your games when a player dies? |
SR4 has rules for edge being burnt to avoid death, so a PC should only die if he is constantly finding himself needing to burn edge, or the player wants the character gone.
| QUOTE |
| As a bonus question, why do melee characters sound so popular around here despite the fact that the defender gets dodge bonuses and the character gets stuck right out in the open? |
Melee has some advantages as well. Against gunmen, you can force a -3 penalty by getting into melee with them. Depending on positioning, getting cover against ranged attacks from the other combatants shouldn't be too hard.
| QUOTE |
| As an extra bonus question, how do you show combat? We converted our D&D combat map, with the five foot squares now being one meter squares (the largest squares possible while still being able to see if two people can be hit in a single wide burst). |
We generally just describe what's going on, and break out the battle mat if necessary.
Posted by: Prime Mover Aug 3 2007, 04:06 PM
Personally If they put themselves in position to die I'm not saving them, but if it's not there fault I'll cut em a break, even let one elven samuri off hook once due to fact the was left for dead all alone along desert highway once after nasty katana fight....story as to how he ended up with his blue chrome cyber-arm. SR really isnt all that different then other rpg's no player wants to see his beloved 18 yr old thrice revised charecter die, but sometimes it happens and should be handled like your group would normally in any other game, keeps the rabble from upriseing. ;P As for bringing in new folks usually let fixer or other contact bring them in unless they have a good backstory I want to tack on to our saga.
Dodge goes both ways, kinda draws out a melee fight. Armed melee has worked just fine in our game, and hand to hand is usually reserved for a quick struggle while one or other trys to get to a weapon or get help. Melee combat seems to go slower then gunfight but then shouldnt it?
I use crystal caste mat, same as you square=1 meter, currently using some non SR mini's but they work for ranges and what not. Funny whenever I draw anything someone at table sees a sex organ. In past used plastic sheet over large graph paper and grease pencil, markers on mat just as messy but found as long as indoors and away from fans..can track down some cardboard counters too.
Posted by: vladski Aug 3 2007, 04:32 PM
| QUOTE (Gelare) |
| So, me and my group recently migrated over to Shadowrun from D&D, and I've been GMing for them. I think I've done pretty well - every adventure the party comes very, very close to dying, but doesn't quite die. To be fair, I've been stealing some good adventures from other people. (Ping Time, Born to Die, and BodyChase, in case you're curious.) Anyway, I'm wondering how you all do things like death in your games. This is Shadowrun, after all. If I were even a little more ruthless than I am, at least half the party would be dead. Now, when we played D&D, when someone would die and didn't want to be raised, we'd jokingly say that when you bury the corpse, an adventurer tree grows on the spot, and - pop! - out comes a fully equipped new character! Maybe they'd lose a level, but mostly we just wanted to keep the game going. I understand this isn't exactly in the spirit of Shadowrun - guilty as charged, but hey, that's just how we roll. So what do you do in your games when a player dies? As a bonus question, why do melee characters sound so popular around here despite the fact that the defender gets dodge bonuses and the character gets stuck right out in the open? As an extra bonus question, how do you show combat? We converted our D&D combat map, with the five foot squares now being one meter squares (the largest squares possible while still being able to see if two people can be hit in a single wide burst). |
Welcome to Shadowrun!
One nice thing about Shadowrun (at least 3rd and 4th editions of which I am most familiar with) is that, unlike D&D, a startup character can hang with veterans pretty well. They may not be as well rounded, but the stats are definitely playable. So, instead of starting characters out at "higher" levels, really a character can be made jsut by book specs and hang with the rest of the party.
And I too use square ruled 1 inch mats representing 1 meter squares, jsut like in D&D. I find that it's best to get a ruler or a little cheap tape measure to measure off diagonal movement in this case, instead of trying to count squares. But the grid facilitates drawing buildings and landmarks to scale with minis and helping keep everyone in their "places" each round.
Here's how I made my own "mats":
I purchased white butcher's paper (found anywhere really cheap in big rolls) that is 2 foot wide and then cut off a 3 foot section. Then carefully i laid out a one by one inch grid using a pencil and T square (a yardstick would do) first and then over that with a Sharpie. Then, I took it to my local teacher's supply store and had them laminate the the whole thing. I figure each mat I make that way came up costing around 4 bucks or something after laminating. I then use Vis a Vis water soluble markers on them to draw things out. Then at the end of gaming, we jsut wipe them down with a wet cloth. It works wonders. You can afford to make several of these and as the characters go from place to place, jsut quickly switch mats on the table. Also, if you have several, you can do a rough outline of facility ahead of time and jsut whip it out when the adventure calls for it. I have been using mats made this way for years and they last forever. I truly prefer them over professional mats. I also used to laminate all my official D&D large maps for durability. Just roll them up when you aren't using them and stick them in a card board postal tube.
We use 25mm minis for our characters, but for bad guys a trick I have found is using Scrabble tiles. Go out and buy yourself a cheap regular Scrabble game (can be had for about 10 bucks most Walmarts) and use the wooden tiles. By using the blanks you can get two full "alphabets" out of the tiles with many left over. Take a colored magic marker and do one "'Bet"'s edge in one color and the other in another. These work wonderfully for keeping track of different NPC's. (I actually use a total of four different colors of tiles) And they fit nicely in the one inch squares of the mat. Also, for death, jsut flip them over (we frequently set "stunned" on their edge) The tiles store easily for transport as well.
I hope that helps you. Good gaming!
Vlad
Posted by: Gelare Aug 3 2007, 04:43 PM
I guess I should specify, what do you do about character advancement upon death? If everyone on a team has accumulated, say, fifty karma each, and then someone dies and has to start all over at chargen, they're going to be significantly behind. That could make problems, both in game and out of game.
Vlad's right, of, course, it is striking how powerful characters are right out of the box compared to runners with a lot of karma, but it doesn't mean the players won't whine about it. A hard cap on hit points is a great equalizer. Also, those laminated combat maps are a good idea, and very cost effective. I might give that a try sometime. Thanks.
Posted by: Eryk the Red Aug 3 2007, 05:08 PM
The difference in power level is not as terrible as you think between a vet and a starting character, as long as the starting character is built well.
I prefer not giving new characters karma (I used to), because I'd rather leave them more room to grow. It's not like in D&D, where a level 5 fighter has about 5 times as many hit points as a level 1. Experienced characters tend to be more well-rounded, rather than simply being more powerful.
That said, if you still don't like the difference, I would generally give the new character about half or so of the average Karma total of the party, and throw him some money, equivalent to a couple runs' pay. That keeps things fair, I think.
Posted by: Aaron Aug 3 2007, 05:15 PM
| QUOTE (vladski) |
| We use 25mm minis for our characters, but for bad guys a trick I have found is using Scrabble tiles. |
That's brilliant.
Posted by: Critias Aug 3 2007, 05:46 PM
| QUOTE (Gelare) |
| I guess I should specify, what do you do about character advancement upon death? If everyone on a team has accumulated, say, fifty karma each, and then someone dies and has to start all over at chargen, they're going to be significantly behind. That could make problems, both in game and out of game. Vlad's right, of, course, it is striking how powerful characters are right out of the box compared to runners with a lot of karma, but it doesn't mean the players won't whine about it. A hard cap on hit points is a great equalizer. Also, those laminated combat maps are a good idea, and very cost effective. I might give that a try sometime. Thanks. |
There's something kind of lame (to me) about getting a bunch of karma for nothing, and also something kind of lame (to me) about someone else in my group being rewarded for letting their character die. The rest of us have poured blood, sweat, and Edge into a game in order to scratch out some nuyen and karma for our characters -- and now that so-and-so is dead, such-and-such is gonna waltz in with the same level of experience and money and stuff, without having the scars or unwilling-replacement-cybernetics to show for it?
Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I'd say "1/2 karma for replacement killers," personally. It gives them enough they won't be completely boned compared to the rest of the group, but makes dying still suck (which it should, considering you can always burn Edge, etc, to keep it from happening).
And I'd make that 1/2 karma get cut in half per character. If we hit fifty and then you die, your replacement starts with twenty five. A few runs later, and you croak while we're at fifty-five and you're at thirty? Congrats, here's fifteen karma. Be more fucking careful next time, rookie.
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 3 2007, 06:21 PM
Personally, I don't really care for the idea that a PC shouldn't die if it's just a fire fight gone wrong. What's the point then? Why build up a super sammie, or initiate, if all you have to do is recycle the run's karma in to buying back your burnt Edge after using Hand of God? Seems to defeat the purpose.
Death happens in SR, and if it doesn't, or it's teeth are pulled, the game as a whole loses it's bite. IMO. PCs die, and if they can just pop right back up, then it takes something away from those that lived. I personally limit Hand of God to one use, and allow a bit of extra for the guys that have been around for a while. I let them buy an Oh SHIT! card for 50 karma, basiaclly an extra Hand of God type thing.
If there's no sense of mortality, there's no sense of accomplishment.
Again, this is all my personal views. I'm usually the first to say "to each his own". But hey, it's already been said in this thread.
Posted by: vladski Aug 3 2007, 06:43 PM
| QUOTE (Eryk the Red) |
| The difference in power level is not as terrible as you think between a vet and a starting character, as long as the starting character is built well. I prefer not giving new characters karma (I used to), because I'd rather leave them more room to grow. It's not like in D&D, where a level 5 fighter has about 5 times as many hit points as a level 1. Experienced characters tend to be more well-rounded, rather than simply being more powerful. That said, if you still don't like the difference, I would generally give the new character about half or so of the average Karma total of the party, and throw him some money, equivalent to a couple runs' pay. That keeps things fair, I think. |
CHARACTER DEATH
Like Eryk and the other posters on this thread, the longer I've gamed, the less I like rewarding players for dying. I try to give the PC's every opportunity to live, to the point of fudging here and there if it was just a case of dice going horribly bad. It doesn't mean they aren't penalized (they lose edge, karma, possessions etc.), but I run large ongoing campaigns where hte characters have a huge arc to play. I tailor my stories to the characters in many ways and try to bring out subplots using their contacts and former enemies.
Also, I have found that letting the characters live (if possible but with big penalties) builds their characters. And the game itself. Suddenly that forgettable one-off NPC becomes an enemy, they have a grudge now, etc.
But, if they are really stupid and really pushing it and it results in death, so be it. Here's a sheet, roll up a new character. (Can you tell where my roots are? Roll up, indeed *L*) The game is no fun if you can't lose or if you always win. From what you have said about pushing them to their limits on each run, it sounds like you already have this concept in your gaming. it's a good one to stick with. Most mature gamers appreciate it.
NEW CHARACTERS
As far as a new character... in my opinion he gets started out on the 400 point build jsut like everyone else. After he (or she) has built his character and I go over the sheet, I may hand pick an item or two, or toss in a little bonus cash as needed, but its always on a case by case basis. Or allow them to go slightly over on their cash limit, if they have a really good justification for that one piece of gear that their character just can't live without. But no additional karma. Ever. That has to be earned.
In my opinion start up characters in SR are completely survivable with veterans. They probably aren't as well rounded, or have as many toys, but if they can't survive, if they can't make it through a couple runs, cut a deal with characters or bargain with their contacts and realize they may have to be careful, then the player needs to learn a bit of gaming skill. I have always likened them to Porter in the first few minutes of the movie Payback. Here's the new guy... he's coming from nowhere and has nothing but his skills and his wits and his balls. Steal that gun, that car, those cigarettes. Take what the world owes you. That's Shadowrun, baby! And it's fun!
Vlad
Posted by: vladski Aug 3 2007, 07:00 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron @ Aug 3 2007, 12:15 PM) | ||
That's brilliant. |
Awww shucks!
It tweren't brilliant or nuttin'
Another useful thing I used to do for 3rd edition (don't seem to need it as much for 4th with the way initiative goes but it could be used):
Get some of those cheap 3x5 clear acrylic picture frames... you know, the kind that are one piece with them bent around like a sloppy "L"? They make wonderful Initiative and Damage (and whatever else you wanna keep track of) boards for each character. Just slip a piece of paper into the frame. Then give each player a dry erase marker. When Init is rolled, have each player write down their score.
Each of mine had hte character's names, a slot to write Init and a set of damage boxes that they could put checks in. And then have them stay on the table and facing you, the GM. It made keeping track of Init a breeze for me. It also helps to remember their names when they are newer characters and you can stay in character while roleplaying better. And knowing where each character is on their damage levels at a glance helps you be a "kind" GM for determining jsut how far an NPC might go in his attacks. (And also to keep the player honest in figuring all his penalties for dice rolls
)I was able to get the plastic picture frames for a buck apiece at a Dollar Store and a package of dry erase markers don't cost much either. A real time saver. And they are pretty portable as well, if you GM at different houses.
Now that, that's brilliant.
Vlad
ps. If you use both ideas, jsut don't mix up the dry erase and the Vis a Vis markers. The dry erase stains your mats if it gets wet.
Posted by: Sma Aug 3 2007, 07:59 PM
The Player gets to keep his Karma. All of it. He spends time playing the game making it more fun for everyone involved, so why penalize him, if its more fun to him, bringing in a new character.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Aug 3 2007, 09:34 PM
Damn strait, SMA. I reward players for playign well, not characters. (of course I also use an all Karma character creation, so it's a little easier.) I got this idea from the latest edition of paranioa. That's a game where you are expected to die at least once a session, so they figured out how to make it less painful and more fun. If you think having the occasional main character die makes for good gritty fun, then consider doing it this way. Then your players don't get penalized just for allowing a character to die in the interests of the story.
Posted by: Buster Aug 3 2007, 09:56 PM
| QUOTE (Gelare) |
| As a bonus question, why do melee characters sound so popular around here despite the fact that the defender gets dodge bonuses and the character gets stuck right out in the open? |
Because swords never run out of ammo. But mostly it's the coolness factor...and the Highlander fanboys.
Posted by: the_dunner Aug 4 2007, 01:07 AM
| QUOTE (Gelare) |
| and BodyChase |
Holy Crap! I wrote that 15 years ago. I'm kind of amazed it's still out there. I'm thrilled to hear somebody else has gotten some mileage out of it.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| I'd say "1/2 karma for replacement killers," personally. It gives them enough they won't be completely boned compared to the rest of the group, but makes dying still suck (which it should, considering you can always burn Edge, etc, to keep it from happening). And I'd make that 1/2 karma get cut in half per character. If we hit fifty and then you die, your replacement starts with twenty five. A few runs later, and you croak while we're at fifty-five and you're at thirty? Congrats, here's fifteen karma. Be more fucking careful next time, rookie. |
I'd fully endorse this approach as well. You *might* want to consider also tossing in some extra nuyen as well. But, that's a little trickier to track.
I'd also agree with Aaron -- vladski's suggestion of Scrabble tiles is a fantastic one.
The notion of a home-made laminated play mat is very cool, but the dry-erase vinyl ones from Chessex aren't too unreasonable. (Especially if you pick up the factory seconds from their booths at GenCon and Origins.) http://www.chessex.com/mats/Battlemats_Megamats.htm I've had one of them for at least 20 years, and the other for at least ten. They don't exactly wear out, and any household cleaner will get the marker off (wet or dry erase) without a problem.
Posted by: Fortune Aug 4 2007, 01:12 AM
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| I personally limit Hand of God to one use ... |
I am going on record right now and making it clear by stating that I have absitively, posolutely, unquestionably have not used my character's HoG in your game!
Posted by: Fortune Aug 4 2007, 01:19 AM
As for bringing new characters into a game, whether it be a totally new player or from character death, or even at the game's inception, I do the same thing. I work with the player in a one-on-one character creation session and play-it-by-ear as to what extras or bonuses (if any) that individual character needs.
I find hard rules for this type of thing to be silly, but then I also find group chargen session to be silly as well. 
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 4 2007, 02:49 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| I am going on record right now and making it clear by stating that I have absitively, posolutely, unquestionably have not used my character's HoG in your game! |
Yet
Posted by: Fuchs Aug 4 2007, 03:16 AM
Hm... we have a different approach. In our current campaign, death is something the player has to choose, by taking a suicidal course of action, or refusing a way out if a deathly danger. In other situations, there are enough way to keep the character alive as a GM, often more fun too (capture, etc.).
I don't hold much for the "have to keep it dangerous or they will do stupid stuff" reasoning - if I have a problem with a course of action, I simply tell the player that this seemed metagaming or such, I'd not try to solve it in game by killing or maiming a character.
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 4 2007, 03:25 AM
See that's not my approach. I figure that if they do stupid stuff, it may or may not work out. It's not my place to try to kill anyone. That's just mean. I just prefer to let the dice fall where they may. Dice don't lie.
Posted by: Fuchs Aug 4 2007, 03:43 AM
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| See that's not my approach. I figure that if they do stupid stuff, it may or may not work out. It's not my place to try to kill anyone. That's just mean. I just prefer to let the dice fall where they may. Dice don't lie. |
I have more fun, as player as well as as GM, when character death is not on the line. I noticed that in my games, players tend to argue rules, minmax, and get worked up far more when their character's life is at risk, which usually means friction.
If players know their character won't die without a clear warning, they are usually having more fun, and try more "less than perfect" character concepts/plans.
Posted by: Fortune Aug 4 2007, 04:04 AM
I guess it depends on your definition of 'fun'.
Posted by: Particle_Beam Aug 4 2007, 04:15 AM
Doesn't it always?
Posted by: Fuchs Aug 4 2007, 04:18 AM
I know some thrive on the challenge, want to know that a failed plan, a mistake in the heat of battle, a glitch here or there, will spell doom for their character.
I don't. I played in such games, and I hated it. I minmaxed, I argued rules, I picked plans that were safe and minimised risk but were not fun at all, all just so my character would have the least risk of dieing.
These days, I play not-perfect characters, with weaknesses all over, and I enjoy the game far more.
It's not a defintion of fun, its simply what one has fun with. Taste differs. Like in computer games, movies, and novels. I tried the danger approach, and it did not work for me.
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Aug 4 2007, 04:39 AM
More power to ya' man.
Posted by: vladski Aug 4 2007, 06:42 AM
| QUOTE (Buster) | ||
Because swords never run out of ammo. But mostly it's the coolness factor...and the Highlander fanboys. |
Or, as one of my favorite characters ever said:
"You know, they tell ya to never hit a man with a closed fist but it is, on occasion, hilarious."
- Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly
Vlad
Posted by: Critias Aug 4 2007, 07:46 AM
| QUOTE (Fuchs) |
| I know some thrive on the challenge, want to know that a failed plan, a mistake in the heat of battle, a glitch here or there, will spell doom for their character. I don't. I played in such games, and I hated it. I minmaxed, I argued rules, I picked plans that were safe and minimised risk but were not fun at all, all just so my character would have the least risk of dieing. These days, I play not-perfect characters, with weaknesses all over, and I enjoy the game far more. It's not a defintion of fun, its simply what one has fun with. Taste differs. Like in computer games, movies, and novels. I tried the danger approach, and it did not work for me. |
I don't see how the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. It's quite possible to have a flawed, realistic, "not-perfect" character (with weaknesses and all), and still make the game world a high stakes, dangerous, place where it's possible to die.
You don't have to min/max and cut role playing out of the mix, just because a GM runs a game where you can bite it. Training wheels and a dozen GM "no player deaths!" failsafes aren't required safety nets for a game that contains flawed characters and realistic role playing.
Posted by: Fuchs Aug 4 2007, 12:59 PM
As I said, I tried the dangerous game, and I hated it.
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